13 years of irish

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

You've already shown your reasoning for disagreement.

I sure have, and it's been alot more sensical than anything you've posted as of yet.

Yours seems to be based on an anti-gaelic agenda more than anything else. How do I know this? Well - you are happily against Gaeilge, but are more than happy to see an extinct language like Ulster-Scots get support down here that nobody speaks and those who support it in the North do not want even to be apart of this state.

Sure you're not a Loyalist in disguise? It would make much more sense if you said it. Then I could appreciate your angle of where you are coming from. But to hear this nonsense from an Irishman is absolutely and utterly disgusting.

dlofnep

luckylucky wrote: »

Getting back to the OT - The one problem with better education is the teachers - most primary school teachers are not fluent in Irish - how the hell can they teach the language properly. Again I think a big examination of where we want to go with this language of ours is needed

Agreed - It is one part of a large puzzle. I'm still a firm believer that the failure to create a conversational environment within school for Gaeilge is it's biggest downfall. The teacher's themselves would improve their gaeilge in such an environement.

philologos

I personally wouldn't speak Ulster Scots, or Irish but I recognise that people can speak either if they wish. I was merely making the comparison, that they should be considered for revival movements if the Irish language is. I feel most comfortable with English, but I do encourage Irish to be learned but I would suggest on an optional basis as opposed to compulsory.

No I'm not a loyalist in disguise at all, I'm quite happy with the Republic actually.

dlofnep

They can speak it if they wish. But nobody speaks it in the South - so why should we fund it? There is a large community in the South who speak gaeilge and an even larger community who wish to be fluent in it. I can't say the same for Ulster-Scots.

Sure while we're at it, should we support Klingon with our tax because there are some star-wars fans who would like to learn it? Absolutely not.

Ulster-Scots has nothing to do with Irish Heritage. If the planters in the North want to spend their tax on it, fine - more power to them. But it has nothing to do with the South.

Secondly - Irish is the language of the Irish people, which had faded because it was banned from being taught in School by Britain. Since the inception of the Free State, we had the freedom to give the language the educational platform it deserved. Now with that platform, we want to make better use of the time, through a more functional educational system than is currently present.

I don't see what the problem is. We want to learn Irish. It is our language. It's that simple really.

philologos

I just think that all cultural traditions that define who Irish people are should be encouraged to grow, and personally I think if people want to set up community projects for Ulster Scots, and some of the other regional languages that existed in Ireland (in the case of a revival and if there is interest) they should be supported. Theres more to Irish culture than Gaeilge.

PurpleFistMixer

@luckylucky: Aye well I agree, it's important for a language to change as the times progress. Irish isn't doing too badly though, there's a great resource (http://www.focail.ie) that provides the Irish words for many modern things (like broadband, for example - leathanbhanda, though that's a direct translation from English, it's not too shabby), so Irish is more modern than people realise. More modern than the curriculum would have us believe, anyway...

But yeah, to be on topic... I think part of a problem is we don't have enough fluent Irish speakers available to be primary school teachers. Well, this is just my own guessing, I mean.. there are a lot of primary school teachers in the country. I'm sure we've all known people who want to be primary school teachers, but their Irish is lacking... Does the country have enough fluent Irish speakers who want to be teachers? If so, then why is a student's level of Irish so abysmal when they leave school?
It's likely the finger of blame points at the Irish curriculum. A wonderful teacher can only do so much if they're spending their classes trying to teach literature to a group that struggle with grammar... That said, I don't know how primary schools do it.. I assume they have a syllabus to follow... what does it consist of?
Personally, in primary school my opinions towards subjects were shaped a fair bit by the teacher. Had one terrible one in third class, we spent an hour every morning watcing outdated slides on a slideprojector that barely worked. In fourth class though I had a fantastic teacher who was enthusiastic, and made me realise that Irish wasn't just something we read in books and that was spoken by some old people...

EDIT: Oh yes, somewhere in my rant I forgot about the 20 year plan. There's a survey available for those who wish to have an input on the plan for Irish for the next 20 years. It's a bit of a long survey, but I'd say even if you only fill out some of the questions it's beneficial. http://www.plean2028.ie/node/8?q=node/7 <-- link link. Also available in Irish, obviously.

luckylucky

dlofnep wrote: »

Agreed - It is one part of a large puzzle. I'm still a firm believer that the failure to create a conversational environment within school for Gaeilge is it's biggest downfall. The teacher's themselves would improve their gaeilge in such an environement.

Agreed. Conversation is the best way to learn a language -it is how it's done naturally after all.

Jakkass wrote: »

I personally wouldn't speak Ulster Scots, or Irish but I recognise that people can speak either if they wish. I was merely making the comparison, that they should be considered for revival movements if the Irish language is. I feel most comfortable with English, but I do encourage Irish to be learned but I would suggest on an optional basis as opposed to compulsory.

I'd prefer Irish learning to be optional also if it meant it would be done well rather than the current joke of a system. In regards to Ulster Scots I don't know the exact figures involved, wouldn't have thought it was much at all this side of the border, either way unlike Irish Ulster Scots is certainly not a language that is part of our heritage for most of us. However if there is demand for it to be revived in the border areas where it has relevance then I've no probs with that. Though I do think this Ulster Scots thing is a bit of a red herring in this discussion

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

I just think that all cultural traditions that define who Irish people are should be encouraged to grow, and personally I think if people want to set up community projects for Ulster Scots, and some of the other regional languages that existed in Ireland (in the case of a revival and if there is interest) they should be supported. Theres more to Irish culture than Gaeilge.

Sure, encourage them all they like. But it doesn't require support from my tax. If a couple of unionists living in the South want to get together for conversational nights, more power to them.

Secondly - Unionists do not associate with Irish culture or an Irish identity. I'm sure you are aware of this. Ulster-scots is not apart of Irish culture. It is apart of British culture, and even at that - not very relevant.

And yes, there is more to Irish culture than Gaeilge.. But Klingon and Ulster-Scots are not apart of it. Now, let's get back to the topic at hand and stop taking it off-course.

philologos

Who says they are all Unionists?

Yes I will leave you to get back on topic.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

Who says they are all Unionists?

Common sense.

Jakkass wrote: »

Yes I will leave you to get back on topic.

Thank you.

luckylucky

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't see what the problem is. We want to learn Irish. It is our language. It's that simple really.

I don't think it is that simple at all. There are plenty of Irish people who do not want to learn Irish whether you or I like it or not. Unfortunately but that's the reality too. So we need to find a way that works for those who want a revival and those who have no interest whatsoever.

dlofnep wrote: »

Secondly - Unionists do not associate with Irish culture or an Irish identity.

A bit sweeping to be fair I think. Afaik some Unionists do and some don't.

dlofnep wrote: »

Common sense.

Ulster Scots speakers this side of the border(if they exist in any numbers ) I would imagine at least would be offended if you called them Unionists.

dlofnep

luckylucky wrote: »

A bit sweeping to be fair I think. Afaik some Unionists do and some don't.

You obviously don't know what a "Unionist" is. Unionists associate with the Union and being British. Ask them what they are, they will reply "British", and not "Irish". Don't insult my intelligence by trying to state it's not correct.

luckylucky wrote: »

Ulster Scots speakers this side of the border(if they exist in any numbers ) I would imagine at least would be offended if you called them Unionists.

Have you met one? Do you dispute that in most part 99% of ulster-scots speaker's would be Unionists/Loyalists? If 1% aren't, well - I'm sure they'll live. It's quite an accurate statement to say that they are Unionists. Which they are. Don't get politically correct with me. Facts are facts. The Unionist population countered the resurgence of Gaeilge in the North by embracing Ulster-scots to give themselves a sense of identity. You're kidding yourself if you think any different.

luckylucky

Now if you've been reading my posts in this thread you would see that I'm at the opposite pole to Jakkass so it's need to get silly with me. In fact I agree with you generally but making sweepign statements isn't helpful.

dlofnep wrote: »

You obviously don't know what a "Unionist" is. Unionists associate with the Union and being British. Ask them what they are, they will reply "British", and not "Irish". Don't insult my intelligence by trying to state it's not correct.

I know very well what a Unionist is. The fact of the matter is that Unionists come in different forms, perhaps even more so than nationalists. They are those who regard themselves as absolutely British, those who regard themselves as British and Irish, those who regard themselves as Northern Irish and British, those who regard themselves as Ulstermen and those who don't really care too much but just vote UUP because thats what they do. So before I insult your intelligence again, know what you are talking about then I won't need to insult your 'intelligence'.

dlofnep wrote: »

Do you dispute that in most part 99% of ulster-scots speaker's would be Unionists/Loyalists? If 1% aren't, well - I'm sure they'll live. It's quite an accurate statement to say that they are Unionists. Which they are. Don't get politically correct with me. Facts are facts. The Unionist population countered the resurgence of Gaeilge in the North by embracing Ulster-scots to give themselves a sense of identity. You're kidding yourself if you think any different.

I thought it was evident I was talking south of the border. I don't disagree at all with 'facts are facts' and that 99% of ulster Scots speakers are Unionists, but those in the south(probably not many - again another point I agreed with you on) are unlikely to be Unionists, are you trying to say that most Southern Protestants are Unionists?

PurpleFistMixer

Southern protestants speak Ulster Scots? Maybe I missed something.

luckylucky

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Southern protestants speak Ulster Scots? Maybe I missed something.

No nobody actually speaks Ulster Scots - it's a make-believe language

dlofnep

luckylucky wrote: »

Now if you've been reading my posts in this thread you would see that I'm at the opposite pole to Jakkass so it's need to get silly with me.

Sorry, didn't mean to get silly with you. I'm just tired of debating the same old tirade. I apologise.

luckylucky wrote: »

I know very well what a Unionist is. The fact of the matter is that Unionists come in different forms, perhaps even more so than nationalists. They are those who regard themselves as absolutely British, those who regard themselves as British and Irish, those who regard themselves as Northern Irish and British, those who regard themselves as Ulstermen and those who don't really care too much but just vote UUP because thats what they do. So before I insult your intelligence again, know what you are talking about then I won't need to insult your 'intelligence'.

Once again, in general - They regard themselves as British, and not Irish. The identify with British culture, and not Irish culture. It's like that Ali-G segment -

Ali g: "Are you Irish?"
Unionist: "No, I'm British!"
Ali g: "Well is you on holidays then?"

I know on forums you need to keep a sense of political correctness, but in fairness - Unionists consider themselves British.

luckylucky wrote: »

I thought it was evident I was talking south of the border. I don't disagree at all with 'facts are facts' and that 99% of ulster Scots speakers are Unionists, but those in the south(probably not many - again another point I agreed with you on) are unlikely to be Unionists, are you trying to say that most Southern Protestants are Unionists?

I don't think we have any date on the speakers of it in the South to confirm their demographics. My original point still stands however - Ulster-scots is spoken in most part by Unionists and I would add - It would be rare to see anyone else speak it.

luckylucky

dlofnep wrote: »

Once again, in general - They regard themselves as British, and not Irish. The identify with British culture, and not Irish culture. It's like that Ali-G segment -

Ali g: "Are you Irish?"
Unionist: "No, I'm British!"
Ali g: "Well is you on holidays then?"

That Ali-G sketch was with Sammy wilson if I remember right, one of the more staunch unionist types so not really a great example. He's an example of one type of Unionist only.

dlofnep wrote: »

I know on forums you need to keep a sense of political correctness, but in fairness - Unionists consider themselves British.

I agree that most Unionists would consider themselves British first. However many Unionists consider themselves British and Irish also. Unionists are like a box of chocolates you never which type you are going to pick.

... anyways we really getting off topic - we are both agreed on the Ulster Scots thing being a red herring in this discussion so maybe best to agree to disagree or whatever and move on.

dlofnep

Agreed. Back on topic, again

So we all agree that after 13 years, we are not getting our bang for our buck. Did you see plean2028 yet luckylucky?

luckylucky

dlofnep wrote: »

Agreed. Back on topic, again

So we all agree that after 13 years, we are not getting our bang for our buck. Did you see plean2028 yet luckylucky?

yes i filled about half the questions in and submitted it. I just read the questionnaire. Are there any concrete plans?

I'm going to be brutally honest I think we as a people are not driven enough to revive Irish so anything inititated is probably a waste of time. I sincerely hope I'm proved wrong but really I think we prefer to invest our time getting pissed than doing anything lofty like revive our almost killed off language. If that is the case like I suspect perhaps we should just forget about it, there's absolutely no point in having Irish compulsory if we don't genuinely want to have it revived.

unreggd

Xhristy wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Fxck it!

they put in more work so they can look forward to the easy A i say!


And you said it yourself, the numbers are small, so why act in favour of the minority????

dlofnep

luckylucky wrote: »

yes i filled about half the questions in and submitted it. I just read the questionnaire. Are there any concrete plans?

I'm going to be brutally honest I think we as a people are not driven enough to revive Irish so anything inititated is probably a waste of time. I sincerely hope I'm proved wrong but really I think we prefer to invest our time getting pissed than doing anything lofty like revive our almost killed off language. If that is the case like I suspect perhaps we should just forget about it, there's absolutely no point in having Irish compulsory if we don't genuinely want to have it revived.

I think the stigma of Irish and some people not wanting to revive it is because firstly, the class structure isn't fun (and should be!) - And secondly, they get absolutely nothing out of it. If they could speak the language at the end of it, at least it would be something.

So we need to improve the education, make it more fun, productive - add more conversational time so we can speak it, and so it won't be taboo to speak our own language in our own country. I wrote an article on my thoughts about it. I'll send it to you privately.

PurpleFistMixer

luckylucky wrote: »

I'm going to be brutally honest I think we as a people are not driven enough to revive Irish so anything inititated is probably a waste of time. I sincerely hope I'm proved wrong but really I think we prefer to invest our time getting pissed than doing anything lofty like revive our almost killed off language. If that is the case like I suspect perhaps we should just forget about it, there's absolutely no point in having Irish compulsory if we don't genuinely want to have it revived.

Actually, there are quite a lot of people who are working hard to see the revival of Irish. Don't be so pessimistic about people. Yes, there are lots of people who waste (sorry, I mean spend) their time getting drunk every week, but there are others who are interested and dedicated and enthusiastic about the language, and are willing to do things to help it. No point being defeatist about it.

luckylucky

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Actually, there are quite a lot of people who are working hard to see the revival of Irish. Don't be so pessimistic about people. Yes, there are lots of people who waste (sorry, I mean spend) their time getting drunk every week, but there are others who are interested and dedicated and enthusiastic about the language, and are willing to do things to help it. No point being defeatist about it.

Maybe i'm just getting too cynical in my old age

I hope I'm wrong and yes sometimes things can change, but there is a lot of people with the attitude of jakkass out there and with the way Irish was half-heartedly attempted to be brought back in the past I can well understand the resentment. Again though having just an improved education system for Irish is not enough, there must be a will on the behalf of people to bring it into their communities.

anyway I'm having enough trouble learnign Portuguese

JC 2K3

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

there are lots of people who waste (sorry, I mean spend) their time getting drunk every week

Lol, like it or not, they're simply keeping alive another aspect of our culture.

And actually, I wouldn't be surprised if many fluent Irish speakers enjoyed cúpla pionta síos sa phub 's ag caint as Gaeilge every week.:p

philologos

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

Southern protestants speak Ulster Scots? Maybe I missed something.

I don't know any that do, coming from that religious affiliation, but I would say that cultural affiliations aren't linked with religious.

PurpleFistMixer

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Lol, like it or not, they're simply keeping alive another aspect of our culture.

And actually, I wouldn't be surprised if many fluent Irish speakers enjoyed cúpla pionta síos sa phub 's ag caint as Gaeilge every week.:p

True that, some say the Irish comes a lot easier when they're drunk. : p

dlofnep

PurpleFistMixer wrote: »

True that, some say the Irish comes a lot easier when they're drunk. : p

I am living proof of this!

PrivateEye

I love the Irish language. I just think its a beautiful language. Some of my favourite books were written in Irish. I went to an Irish primary and secondary. I wear the fáinne with pride, and often speak Irish in all kinds of places (We're talking bus stops to night clubs) when people see it.

Saying that
*The school system is shambolic. Made a number of my mates hate the language with a passion. I believe in taking Irish in the future, 'Stair na Gaeilge' is like hitting it over the head with a shovel.

*There should be more emphasis put on spoken irish. I speak good Irish, but I don't know/care much about the pointless grammar book we sat though in 4th year. The 'where the h' brigade will kill the language. Elitisms dangerous, i think some Irish speakers (esp. secondary school types) like speaking a minority language. That's a pity. People should be encouraged to feel more confident in their spoken Irish.


I'm completely anti-nationalism. I've not got a second of time for flag waving types or whatever else, I just love the language. I grew up around it (grandad) and believe in O' Cadhains idea of it being the language of 'the people' I know a Polish girl currently learning it because she thinks its a beautiful emotive language. The way its thought in schools evokes images of a horrible old way of life. MODERNISE OR LOSE IT.



Don't let those damned books ruin it for you.

dlofnep

PrivateEye - I agree with the spoken aspect (or lack of) in schooling. It definately requires more time, more classes per week.. Single classes for it per week. Speak first, write later!

raah!

It's not really fair to force the language on people who are not interested in, or even dislike, irish culture and the like. If ye want to revive the language that's all well and good, but forcing people isn't the way.

New system or not, if it were the easiest thing in the world to learn, with the best teachers and schools and all this, there would still be people who don't want to do it. It's not a useful and it's kinda silly to say that they need to have a pass in irish to get into irish college.