13 years of irish

dlofnep

raah! wrote: »

It's not really fair to force the language on people who are not interested in, or even dislike, irish culture and the like. If ye want to revive the language that's all well and good, but forcing people isn't the way.

So what do you suggest? Drop the Irish language curriculum altogether? I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter. And if we drop it - should we just leave it for gaelscoileanna and gaeltachtaí?

If this is the case, it will only kill the language once and for all. Now, I've personally not a huge problem with it being a choice-subject at leaving cert level, if a conversational class is adopted before-hand from junior infants til third year, allowing for fluency in the language to be obtained. But there is no sense behind dropping a fundemental part of our culture and history; because it lessens the amount of classes taken each week in school.

raah! wrote: »

It's not a useful.

Knowing what an ox-bow lake is isn't useful, nor is knowing the history of Europe.. But it's still stimulating to read about and educational. And we study geography and history all throughout school. Should we drop those too? What about maths? Sure, only a small proportion of people are going to use it outside of school.. And while we're at it - We could cut out reading Novels and plays in English class.. They aren't useful. Or what about music class? Let's cut that from curriculum altogether. That's not useful.

Do you see what I'm getting at? It's a part of our educational system. It is our duty as Irish people to ensure our language is preserved. The day we stop caring about all the small things in life that makes us individual, is the day life becomes uninteresting.

raah!

Yes, I see what you are getting at, but I disagree. I am in favour of leaving cert irish being a choice.

Now we already have english and maths also mandatory, but you can see that these two are somewhat justifiable as requirements for the entry into a college.

If you can't speak english obviously you are going to have difficulties in college, if you can't spell or write you'll also have difficulties.

While maths is less widely useful, it is definatly necessary for people to be numerate. And while most of the maths course may seem irrelevant maths is a very good way of testing a students ability. If you can't pass pass maths after 12 years of maths, then really you have no business being in college.

Irish on the other hand is in no way necessary for a student to be able to learn in an institute of higher education. Making irish mandatory would be the same as making geography mandatory. It would make more sense to say "pass 2 other languages" than to say "pass irish".

That it is our duty to preserve the language might be your opinion, but it is certainly not everyones. On my first day in pass irish our teacher , noticing that nobody was very enthusiastic about irish said "the english beat your ancestors for speaking irish". And now we are honouring them by copying the english and forcing people to speak irish, in the very same way the english forced them to speak irish?

Making irish mandatory and not just an extra language mandatory is like making pride in your country mandatory.

Making it a choice would not destroy the language, people who wantto preserve irish culture will still preserve it. And if making it non-mandatory does destroy it, then that would only be an illustration of how ridiculous it was to have it as a mandatory subject in the first place.

dlofnep

Firstly, you argue that English is required for college. Would up to junior cert level english, along with speaking the language for 18 years not be sufficient? I did the leaving cert applied and applied to college as a mature student. What this means is that I was doing lower level English for my leaving cert than I was for my junior cert, and I have failed an exam in college yet. So on the same basis that you would like Irish made optional for the leaving cert - the same could be applied to English, and maths for that matter.

The fact that English is spoken daily throughout communities ensures it's survival in Ireland - But Irish is not, and therefore - requires education of the language. How about - we skip the leaving cert all-together and finish school when we're 15? Let's make everything optional. We all know how that would go now don't we? P.E and art class all week!

Also, Nobody is beating anything into anybody. It's a part of our education. Just like history is apart of our education. We're not all going to grow up to be historians, now are we? You need to get off this whole "beating in" idea. It's free education. I agree that the method of education at the moment is not working, hence the whole discussion for revamping it so that it's more fun and does work - allowing students to enjoy the subject. Not everything is a chore. Nobody likes school, but while we are there - there is nothing wrong with educating ourself, especially our very own language.

Secondly, I'd like to take issue with the following.

If you can't pass pass maths after 12 years of maths, then really you have no business being in college.

Not everyone is strong with maths. There are a vast range of courses, none of which require maths or the ability to be strong at maths. If someone cannot pass maths, it may be because they are more creative thinkers than logical thinkers. So your argument holds no weight whatsoever.

JC 2K3

Meh, I've yet to find someone who's genuinely intelligent in another academic area and can't pass maths.

raah! wrote: »

And while most of the maths course may seem irrelevant maths is a very good way of testing a students ability.

How isn't Irish?

raah! wrote: »

Making irish mandatory and not just an extra language mandatory is like making pride in your country mandatory.

1. So we shouldn't teach pride in our country or shouldn't have pride in our country as one of the fundamental tenants of our state?
2. That's a bit like saying rather than teaching a specific, mandatory maths curriculum, students should be able to choose what aspects of maths they want to learn.

diddley

This is a very interesting thread. I'd just like to add - someone talked about not being taught grammar. Personally I, and others, were never taught how to even conjugate a verb properly (broad, slender etc). In 1st year we started exercises on it with the teacher assuming we could all do it. You'd think that would be a topic of most importance but some of us were clueless about it!

dlofnep

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Meh, I've yet to find someone who's genuinely intelligent in another academic area and can't pass maths.

I know of alot of people who are weak at maths, but who are strong creativity-wise. Maths isn't my strongest point, and while I passed my exams in college for it, it was the toughest subject for me. I haven't failed an exam yet, and being poor at maths has not affected any other subject for me - including programming.

I know alot of people who failed maths, but passed every other subject. So you see, there is no correlation between being able to pass maths and intelligence in other fields.

raah!

So on the same basis that you would like Irish made optional for the leaving cert - the same could be applied to English, and maths for that matter.

I don't think this can be applied to irish, as there are many other second languages possible, all of which would be the same test of ability. There is only one maths, and only on spoken language. There are many second languages to choose from. If you say "we have only one national language" again you are forcing nationalism on people.

But Irish is not, and therefore - requires education of the language

again, not everyone wants the language to survive or even cares about it. Look at w hat we have now, pass leaving cert irish Is a joke, I had better irish in 6th class than in 6th year, and I was using mostly the irish learned in primary school in my leaving cert

Just like history is apart of our education

history is optional. And I think I should reiterate irish being mandatory for the leaving cert, and for entry to NUI's. Irish in the junior cert would be a different matter, because people do have to do other things like business and other subjects they don't like.

Not everyone is strong with maths. There are a vast range of courses, none of which require maths or the ability to be strong at maths

While this may be true, there is still a far greater arguement for making maths mandatory than there is for making one of nearly ten languages in the leaving cert mandatory


And for the next set of posts. While there are obvious pitfalls in using a language to test someones general ability (as there also are with maths.... but less I think). There are many languages, there is only one maths (I've already said this, but I thought I'd address everything)

I think teaching pride in our country is fine, people should be able to decide whether or not they want to hear it.

The maths curriculum was selected by a team of people who no doubt knew which level of mathematics would be better for leaving cert students than they would. It's their job after all.

You could also say that it is their job to teach pride in the country, but not to force it, and that is exactly what they are doing.

luckylucky

While I agree with dlofnep(that's a hard bloody alias to remember ) enthusiasm for the Irish language I can also see Raah!'s point.

In it's current state there is no point in having Irish as a mandatory subject, it's not used on a daily basis by most people.

Although something like 40% claim to be able to speak Irish in varying degrees I have rarely heard it being spoken in regular life, maybe that's what people should start doing, if people genuinely want the language revived - maybe they should start saying 'go raibh maith Agat'(4 words to say thanks - are we sure there isn't a need to modernise it ) instead of Thanks and other little sayings - make it a commonplace thing other than something unusual -the ball needs to get rolling in some form, if Irish isn't in the community, having it as a mandatory subject at school is at best just a wasteful indulgence and at worst it creates resentment(which I think we are all well aware of) imo.

I think we got to wait to see what this plean2028 comes up with - hopefully it'll come up with a realistic workable plan that pleases most people, The big problem is we appear quite divided as a nation on the subject of the language and I think any plan needs to cater for this and hopefully a viable solution comes about which doesn't step on too many peoples toes.

One little note I've been impressed by the discussion here - my first and maybe my only time discussing something in the leaving Cert forum, something which I finished with many many years ago . On an emotive subject people in general didn't get nasty on either side of the debate - if that's a reflection of the Leaving Cert students of today then it's a very good one imo

dlofnep

luckylucky wrote: »

While I agree with dlofnep(that's a hard bloody alias to remember

It's penfold backwards lol

luckylucky wrote: »

Although something like 40% claim to be able to speak Irish in varying degrees I have rarely heard it being spoken in regular life, maybe that's what people should start doing, if people genuinely want the language revived - maybe they should start saying 'go raibh maith Agat'(4 words to say thanks - are we sure there isn't a need to modernise it ) instead of Thanks and other little sayings -

And yes, this is important to do. I created a conversational group in my city a few months back and I will always use phrases as gaeilge to everyone. To anyone in the conversational group - I speak to them in Irish, even on normal nights out where we're not organising a conversational night. People pickup on this - Countless nights people have listened in to us speaking Irish and have thrown a few words in as gaeilge to us. I think people would be uncomfortable in speaking Irish, but once they hear a few people - then they have no problem.

But in order for people outside of conversational groups to feel comfortable with speaking it, our educational system needs to allow them a platform for speaking it - ie: a conversational irish class. This way, they would already have spoken it for years, so it wouldn't seem unusual for them to speak it with their friends.

luckylucky

conversation in the class might be the way forward alright and drop all these antiquated books and poems.

JC 2K3

raah! wrote: »

There is only one maths

No, there is a vast spectrum of mathematical concepts, all which could be validly taught at LC level, yet an arbitrary bunch are taught.

raah! wrote: »

If you say "we have only one national language" again you are forcing nationalism on people.

1. There are two, Irish and English, and they're both mandatory.
2. There is only one state examination, the LC, is this forcing nationalism on people? Should we offer A Levels or the Bac as alternatives? The products sold in our shops correlate to what the average Irish person wants to buy. Is this forcing nationalism on people? If you choose to live in Ireland, is nationalism being forced on you?

The answer to your quote and all these questions is no.

Ireland is a nation. When you or your parents choose to live in Ireland, you accept Irish nationalism. You accept that certain things are done in Ireland based on cultural tradition. This is the same in any country. Perhaps you have a vision of a culturally neutral world, and that's fine, but it simply is not the reality of today.

raah! wrote: »

I think teaching pride in our country is fine, people should be able to decide whether or not they want to hear it.

If they never hear it, how will they know? Again, we don't live in a culturally neutral world. It doesn't work that way.

raah! wrote: »

The maths curriculum was selected by a team of people who no doubt knew which level of mathematics would be better for leaving cert students than they would. It's their job after all.

And the rest of the people setting the LC curriculum, those who decided Irish should be compulsory, were idiots?

luckylucky

JC 2K3 wrote: »

And the rest of the people setting the LC curriculum, those who decided Irish should be compulsory, were idiots?

Idiots might be too strong a word, but they were lacking a realistic vision of re-vitalising Irish in any sort of meaningful way.

dlofnep

raah! wrote: »

again, not everyone wants the language to survive or even cares about it. Look at w hat we have now, pass leaving cert irish Is a joke, I had better irish in 6th class than in 6th year, and I was using mostly the irish learned in primary school in my leaving cert

Your issue here seems to be more with the method of education (which I and everyone else agrees on), rather than studying the language itself. The difference is, we're willing to put the time in so that method of education changes so that students get alot more bang for their buck, rather than completely give up on it.

raah! wrote: »

history is optional. And I think I should reiterate irish being mandatory for the leaving cert, and for entry to NUI's. Irish in the junior cert would be a different matter, because people do have to do other things like business and other subjects they don't like.

That's an arbitrary amount of time. What's the difference between something being mandatory for 11 years and 13? Like I said, I'm not completely against the idea of any language being optional for leaving cert (English included) - So long as the level of that said language is satisfactory beforehand. So in schools adopt a conversational class, then all students would be fluent in Irish before even taking the junior cert. Then, let them decide if they want to keep it up.

But for anyone lobbying for Gaeilge being optional for the leaving cert, I would expect the same option for people with the English language if they didn't want to take it. At the age of 15, having spoken English and studied it for their entire life - they would be a better case for English being optional at leaving cert level, as by then - everyone can spell, read, or write in most part. So why should they continue to study a language that they already have a fine grasp on? Doesn't make much sense to me. Surely, in this optional world of education you want us to have would account for me. I would have rathered spent my classes for the leaving cert doing double-irish opposed to English. Do I get this choice in your optional world?

raah! wrote: »

While this may be true, there is still a far greater arguement for making maths mandatory than there is for making one of nearly ten languages in the leaving cert mandatory

Not really. You seem to want to give choice on subjects that you have personally an issue with. What if someone wants to be an artist? Should they have to waste their time on maths and english - when it could be better spent on art? You see - that's what college is for. For people to focus on a particular subject. Primary & secondary school is to give people a base education, and our own language is a fundamental aspect of that.

dlofnep

RG Cuan wrote: »

The best thing that's going to happen with the education system is the extra percentage points that are being awarded to the oral exams from this September onwards.

It still doesn't rectify the problem.

Firstly, the oral exams are flawed from the get-go. People are just going to remember a couple of phrases and questions in their short-term memory. So while they might get more points for their orals, it still doesn't change the fact that they won't have a word of Irish. This is why I believe conversational classes are a requirement in order to truly be able to speak the language, and not memorize it.

RG Cuan wrote: »

It's obvious that people would like to be fluent but feel the system lets them down. The language scene is really picking up throughout the country however with new social events and projects starting up.

No doubt, there are alot of enthusiastic individuals about the language in the country (myself included) - and there is a great movement for it, but this in the long run can only help those who have the time to pursue it.

What we really need is a platform for everybody in Ireland to be able to speak the language, and then - let them decide if they want to. I think alot of people will be surprised what language people speak if Irish was given the chance it deserves and conversational classes were added.

RG Cuan wrote: »

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And new online radio station Rí Rá - www.raidiorira.ie

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raah!

I would be fine with english being optional, and with maths being optional. But I still think it is easier to justify their being mandatory than it is to justify irish being mandator

That's an arbitrary amount of time. What's the difference between something being mandatory for 11 years and 13

This would fit in with people having to do other subjects as well. So there could be more of a case for irish made than just a culturally based one.

What if someone wants to be an artist? Should they have to waste their time on maths and english

I think that art students should also have a choice, and there should be special requirments for each subject. And I think that even with these special requirments the vast majority of courses would have a pass in english or maths included anyway

When you or your parents choose to live in Ireland, you accept Irish nationalism

I just disagree with this. I can't see any basis for your saying this. If there was a state religion everyone would probably be up in arms about it. This is just as much a cultural issue as that

I think that's the central point here, that you believe it's ok to force irish on people because we are living in ireland. This type of thing will cetainly lead to a resentment of the language. If everywhere else were nazis that wouldn't justify our being nazis.

I mad the point about the maths curriculum because you said "there are lots of areas in maths", to argue that we hadn't choice in maths either. When I said "there is only one maths" I meant there is only one leaving cert maths subject, to interprete that any other way is silly. If you re-read them in that context they will probably make sense

P.S it looks like in wales they only have to learn welsh up to 16. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/434738.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Wales

dlofnep

raah! wrote: »

I would be fine with english being optional, and with maths being optional. But I still think it is easier to justify their being mandatory than it is to justify irish being mandatory

Perhaps maths, for those working in areas that require it. But I don't think English is justified as a mandatory subject over Irish. I have already outlined why. No need to again.

So, in total - While you agree with English being optional in your latest post, you are still trying to defend it being mandatory. Which leads me to believe that this is just an agenda you have against the Irish language, more than giving students the option to speak the language.

Now, I've said it time and time again - I have no problem with it being optional for the leaving cert, but only when the educational system up until then gives students the ability to speak the language. Otherwise, it's 11-13 years of failed curriculum. So when the time comes at 15, where they can speak the language - then they would have a more balanced view on selecting subjects for the leaving cert. Allowing it to be optional in it's current situation would be madness.

dlofnep

raah! wrote: »

P.S it looks like in wales they only have to learn welsh up to 16. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/434738.stm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Wales

Yes, which is a step up from the education of the language prior to that.

raah!

The reason I can defend english being mandatory is that there is no other form of examination in english. Obviously it's not necessary to the leaving cert level, but it is faaaaaaaaaaaar more necessary than irish ever will be in terms of just being able to speak it. Someone who speaks only irish would have a very hard time if they went to a regular irish college studying something other than irish.

Anyway, my main problem is that we are being forced to learn the language on purely cultural basis. When an argument is to be made for maths (and to a lesser extent english) there is no such mention of cultural reasons. As far as I'm concerned it already is 11-13 years of failed curriculum.

So the centre of my problem with irish lies in the fact that people are being forced to do it, and I disagree with that kinda thing. Would ye support the government if it decided everyone had to start doing ceilis? If they decided everyone had to be a roman catholic? . It is not a culturally neutral ireland that I am talking about, just a culturally free ireland.

dlofnep

raah! wrote: »

The reason I can defend english being mandatory is that there is no other form of examination in english. Obviously it's not necessary to the leaving cert level, but it is faaaaaaaaaaaar more necessary than irish ever will be in terms of just being able to speak it. Someone who speaks only irish would have a very hard time if they went to a regular irish college studying something other than irish.

How is it more neccessary? I'm still not getting this. You can speak it, construct sentences and are fluent in it.. You have a grasp of the grammar. Why would it be more neccessary at leaving cert level than Irish? You cannot speak Irish. You can speak English. I think mandatory Irish would be way more neccessary.

raah! wrote: »

Anyway, my main problem is that we are being forced to learn the language on purely cultural basis. When an argument is to be made for maths (and to a lesser extent english) there is no such mention of cultural reasons. As far as I'm concerned it already is 11-13 years of failed curriculum.

You keep throwing out this "forced" idea. You are required to go to school to get an education. Part of that education includes Irish, English & Maths, along with history, geography and science. They each have their own reasons for it. For English, it's the ability to be able to read, write and speak. For Irish, it's the same. For maths, it's the to able to work logically with numbers and what not.

raah! wrote: »

So the centre of my problem with irish lies in the fact that people are being forced to do it, and I disagree with that kinda thing.

But you don't disagree with being forced to learn English, Maths, History or geography. I look on it as a free education. We are given the opportunity to learn, one of those areas being our language - which was in demise due to it being banned from school. Now that we have the ability to learn it, we should take full advantage of the free education offered to us and do so. I don't think a few hours a week is going to kill anybody.

raah! wrote: »

Would ye support the government if it decided everyone had to start doing ceilis?

I wouldn't see any harm in it as part of an activity during school.

raah! wrote: »

If they decided everyone had to be a roman catholic?.

There is a difference between "being" Roman Catholic and "understanding" a language and being able to "speak" it. This is a very weak argument.

raah! wrote: »

It is not a culturally neutral ireland that I am talking about, just a culturally free ireland.

So long as that culture includes English and maths, right? What you are talking about is your dislike for the Irish language and your agenda against it. And while I can understand why you might not like the language due to the miserable method of education that we all received, I still think you are picking your battles on certain topics here and disregarding the obvious holes in your debate.

raah!

In that first quote I have "in terms of being able to speak it" written. As I also said in that quote, leaving cert level english is in no way necessary. But english would be.

From the very start I have been against anyone being forced to learn anything. I have said however that english and maths are very useful and, if they were to make anything mandatory, it would make more sense for these than it would for irish. And as far as irish being necessary..... that's a bit silly, most people who speak irish also speak english, again this is the same as saying it is "necessary" to preserve a certain aspect of our culture.

You keep throwing out this "forced" idea. You are required to go to school to get an education. Part of that education includes Irish, English & Maths, along with history, geography and science. They each have their own reasons for it. For English, it's the ability to be able to read, write and speak. For Irish, it's the same. For maths, it's the to able to work logically with numbers and what not.

And the alternative is no education? Relate this to "you can eat this food , if you wear a skirt....... but of course you don't have to eat the food, you have a choice". That is the same as being forced.

Now lets look at the reasons you gave for irish, I'm repeating myself here but I'll probably make this my last post.

For English, it's the ability to be able to read, write and speak. For Irish, it's the same

. Now the advantages of being able to red write and speak english are blaringly obvious. It is the spoken language in Ireland. But where are the advantages of Irish over any other european language? It does in fact fall short on nearly all counts. The only advantages that irish would have would be cultural, you like irish culture and you want to preserve the language. I think this part here has helped my very weak argument out alot.

But you don't disagree with being forced to learn English, Maths, History or geography

There are only 3 mandatory subejcts at leaving cert level, irish english and maths. You have already outlined the reasons why english and maths are practical and useful. I think I have shown why irish is lacking in those qualities, except in terms of cultural advantages.

I wouldn't see any harm in it as part of an activity during school.

I think that's crazy.

So long as that culture includes English and maths

well I see things like english and maths as more practically beneficial than culturally. But as I have said gizzillion times, if people don't want to do these two vert important subject that is none of my business, although the government who wants to maintain an efficient and intelligent ireland would probably have a problem with it. I think perhaps the best solution would be to make these things necessary only up to a certain point

I do not hate the irish language at all. Nor do I dislike the culture, I am indifferent to it and see myself as quite removed from that sort of thing. I am opposed to it being forced on people. I think the requirements for a course should fit the actual requirements for a course (I think this knocks irish out of about 99%).

I see I didn't really address the free education thing. I think this is because we just have two different views on society. The government is there to serve the people, our taxes pay for that education. The government (as far as I'm concerned) should not have such a strong influence on what we choose to learn.

I can't see any other holes for the time being. But I'm sure you'll point them out later :P

dlofnep

Ok, firstly - your argument is based on choice for leaving cert, can we agree on this?

And if so, I have already stated that I have no problems with optional subjects for the leaving cert provided that subject understood well enough up until that point. But if Irish is to be made optional, I believe English should be aswell. I have outlined that we would already at that point have a fine grasp on the English language, so there would be no need for it to be "forced" on is. Do we "have" to learn Irish to get by in life? Absolutely not. But the same could be said for other subjects within school like history and geography; And while they are optional after 11 years of study, there is still 11 years of studying them. Will you benefit from the knowledge in a workplace at a later point in life? Probably not - But they are still fascinating subjects to learn and it would be a shame to remove them from the curriculum.

Secondly - You attribute a grasp of English & Maths to a more intelligent Ireland. Would a grasp of a second language not attribute to this also? Or does it not count, because it's cultural? Regardless of the many studies which have shown increased intellect in bilingual students?

So we're going to need to clarify if you want Irish to be completely optional from day 1 of school, or at leaving cert level. From what I gather, you assume Irish to be a pointless subject. Would this be an accurate statement?

raah!

Yes.

As I have said, a second language is good, there is no reason this second language has to be irish.

I was mainly refering to leaving cert level where the others are made optional too, and that makes it unfair to have irish mandatory.

No I don't think it's a pointless subject, but I don't think it should be made compulsary because of it's cultural weight when there are many other options which afford the same or even greater advantages.

dlofnep

raah! wrote: »

As I have said, a second language is good, there is no reason this second language has to be irish.

No reason? Other than it being our language of course? Surely that's a reason. Oh wait, it's "cultural".. So it doesn't count, right? If we removed all aspects of culture through the world, it would all look like and sound the same. Unless that floats your boat? I quit like the distinct cultural differences between nations.

raah! wrote: »

I was mainly refering to leaving cert level where the others are made optional too, and that makes it unfair to have irish mandatory.

And that's fine, provided that after 11 years of study up to that - each person has fluency in the language. Like I said, I'd be all for it if when being taught up until junior cert level; where it included conversational classes to allow people to gain fluency in the language. But at the same point, English would have to be made optional at leaving cert level.

raah!

No reason? Other than it being our language of course? Surely that's a reason

There is no reason it has to be irish

And as far as that last point goes it's clear you like the language alot, not everyone thinks fluency in irish is necessary. Leaving Cert English being made optional would make perfect sense also, as I suppose it's more a "literature" course than a pure language course.

Anyway, I'd say our back and fourth is probably starting to annoy the other posters so we'd better stop, I am finished my leaving cert anyway :P.

dlofnep

raah! wrote: »

And as far as that last point goes it's clear you like the language alot, not everyone thinks fluency in irish is necessary.

I would think after 13 years of learning a language, fluency would be a fair expectation.

luckylucky

raah! wrote: »

There is no reason it has[/bAnyway, I'd say our back and fourth is probably starting to annoy the other posters so we'd better stop.

tbh I think it's hard to debate things properly on online forums. On your argument about culture - we're all part of some culture - for instance all of us here are part of an internet culture. Hmm hope I haven't jsut invited another back and forth discussion :P

dlofnep wrote: »

I would think after 13 years of learning a language, fluency would be a fair expectation.

Never mind 13 years, after 2 or 3 years of a language if properly thought and enough time dedicated fluency or near fluency would be an expectation.

philologos

JC 2K3 wrote: »

There is only one state examination, the LC, is this forcing nationalism on people? Should we offer A Levels or the Bac as alternatives? The products sold in our shops correlate to what the average Irish person wants to buy. Is this forcing nationalism on people? If you choose to live in Ireland, is nationalism being forced on you?

The model of the A-Levels system seems pretty good from looking at how they do it there. Choice in everything, and a very large choice of subjects, and assessment at more times of the year than just one. Also at A-Levels there are modules of the course where students can specialise in. Sounds great actually. Having said that though, the Leaving Cert probably gives people the most broad education in comparison (more subjects, more experience in different areas).

dlofnep wrote: »

No reason? Other than it being our language of course? Surely that's a reason. Oh wait, it's "cultural".. So it doesn't count, right? If we removed all aspects of culture through the world, it would all look like and sound the same. Unless that floats your boat? I quit like the distinct cultural differences between nations.

If it was optional, therefore Irish would not have to be the second or even third language that someone was studying for Leaving Cert. Makes perfect sense to me.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

If it was optional, therefore Irish would not have to be the second or even third language that someone was studying for Leaving Cert. Makes perfect sense to me.

And for the people who would like to drop English so they had more time to spend on Irish? I'm assuming you'd offer the same courtesy to those and ensure English is optional also, right?

philologos

I'd consider making it optional.

Part of me thinks that as English is the working language of Ireland, and would be used to express yourself in other subjects on your course also it could be more useful than having Irish as compulsory. On the other hand if you wanted to ensure maximum choice for absolutely everything it should be optional, but highly reccommended for students to take.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

I'd consider making it optional.

Part of me thinks that as English is the working language of Ireland, and would be used to express yourself in other subjects on your course also it could be more useful than having Irish as compulsory. On the other hand if you wanted to ensure maximum choice for absolutely everything it should be optional, but highly reccommended for students to take.

Part of me thinks your decision is biased. You seem half-hearted at making English optional. At junior cert level, everyone can speak, write and read in English to a high level. Unless they were applying for a job or college where high-level English was required, then there is really no need to do leaving cert level English.

Therefore, if you're going to preach on about Irish being optional - I would expect you to step outside your agenda for the language and extent the same courtesy, without hesitation - to those who wish to drop English for leaving cert level and focus on Irish.

Irish is also the working language of Ireland. I speak Irish every day. I'd appreciate it if you stopped disrespecting the Irish speaking community of Ireland by downplaying it's use in society.