13 years of irish

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

Part of me thinks your decision is biased. You seem half-hearted at making English optional. At junior cert level, everyone can speak, write and read in English to a high level. Unless they were applying for a job or college where high-level English was required, then there is really no need to do leaving cert level English.

English is more widely spoken than Irish in this country. It is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world, hence it's important for kids to stay in and study it.

dlofnep wrote: »

Therefore, if you're going to preach on about Irish being optional - I would expect you to step outside your agenda for the language and extent the same courtesy, without hesitation - to those who wish to drop English for leaving cert level and focus on Irish.

As I've said above, due to the usefulness of English I would be of a mixed opinion to making English optional.

dlofnep wrote: »

Irish is also the working language of Ireland. I speak Irish every day. I'd appreciate it if you stopped disrespecting the Irish speaking community of Ireland by downplaying it's use in society.

Please go out into Dublin, or any other major urban area in this country, and take a poll of how many people are speaking Irish on the streets. I can guarantee you it will be minimal.

If in the Irish speaking communities etc they want to keep Irish compulsory sure. However it is only factual to say that English is the majority working language in modern Ireland.

dlofnep

Jakkass wrote: »

English is more widely spoken than Irish in this country. It is one of the most widely spoken languages in the world, hence it's important for kids to stay in and study it.

And they do study it. They speak it every day. Are you suggesting that after speaking a language for 16 years and studying it for 11, they would not be able to read, write or communicate at a high level in English?

So no, there is no requirement for English at leaving cert level if someone does not wish to learn it if you wish to make languages optional. It's not mandatory to get by. I applied to college as a mature student, and the level of English I studied at LC level was equivalent to pass English (or less) for the junior cert. I've yet to fail an exam yet and somehow, I seem to have a grasp of the language. Amazing, huh?

Jakkass wrote: »

As I've said above, due to the usefulness of English I would be of a mixed opinion to making English optional.

English isn't going anywhere in a hurry. People speak it here everyday. They would already have a grasp of the language. So where is this usefulness coming in? Does English suddenly become more useful after the junior cert? Is English before the leaving cert not adequate enough to read, write and speak? Do you think if someone with junior cert level English went to another English speaking country, they wouldn't be able to speak to those people?

It's only useful if a career choice requires it. And that's why if you wish to make languages optional for LC level, then English should be included as it's use beyond JC is not useful outside specific areas.

Jakkass wrote: »

Please go out into Dublin, or any other major urban area in this country, and take a poll of how many people are speaking Irish on the streets. I can guarantee you it will be minimal.

Breaking news? I'm shocked to hear this. :rolleyes: I'm well aware of the population of Irish speakers in the country.

Jakkass wrote: »

If in the Irish speaking communities etc they want to keep Irish compulsory sure. However it is only factual to say that English is the majority working language in modern Ireland.

You did not say "majority working language". You stated that English was the working language of Ireland, which is incorrect. 2 languages are spoken here, Irish and English.

So not to totally stray away from the original point. If you wish to make Irish optional for the leaving cert, I would expect the same courtesy to make English optional. And while you cite LC level English being useful - I have outlined why it is only useful in specific areas and that the language would already be grasped after the junior cert. And also, I'm not against the idea of languages being optional for the leaving cert, provided there is an adequate competence of the language prior to that. Be it English or Irish.

philologos

dlofnep wrote: »

You did not say "majority working language". You stated that English was the working language of Ireland, which is incorrect. 2 languages are spoken here, Irish and English.

So not to totally stray away from the original point. If you wish to make Irish optional for the leaving cert, I would expect the same courtesy to make English optional. And while you cite LC level English being useful - I have outlined why it is only useful in specific areas and that the language would already be grasped after the junior cert. And also, I'm not against the idea of languages being optional for the leaving cert, provided there is an adequate competence of the language prior to that. Be it English or Irish.

As I say the operating language of Ireland as a whole is English, the working language of certain areas of Gweedore and Connemara might be Irish.

As for keeping up English after the Leaving Cert, the main reason I would consider it would be if people want to express themselves in a better way, or learn how to write creatively, such as language of persuasion etc. You say it shouldn't be necessary to study English after Junior Cert, but the fact is when it comes down to it, English is used in much more situations, speeches, etc so it is important to get it right if indeed English is the working language of Ireland.

In my POV English is definitely not the equivilent of Irish in it's ultimate importance. I would consider English being optional, but it would take a lot more consideration than making Irish optional.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

And they do study it. They speak it every day. Are you suggesting that after speaking a language for 16 years and studying it for 11, they would not be able to read, write or communicate at a high level in English?

are you serious?

do you even read boards?

dlofnep

Princess Innocent Knickers wrote: »

are you serious?

Oh yes, because an internet message board is the perfect setting for correct grammar.. I would hardly use people sitting down on their backside all day, drinking a few cups of tea as an example of poor grammar in a real world scenario.

Princess Innocent Knickers wrote: »

do you even read boards?

I sure do. It's something that junior cert level English taught me to do. I can write also. I'm sure, if the chance presented itself - I might be just capable enough to speak to you too.

Jakkass wrote: »

As I say the operating language of Ireland as a whole is English, the working language of certain areas of Gweedore and Connemara might be Irish.

I never disputed the areas in which the language is spoken. I highlighted that english is not the only working language of Ireland, and Irish has been spoken here for centuries.

Jakkass wrote: »

As for keeping up English after the Leaving Cert, the main reason I would consider it would be if people want to express themselves in a better way, or learn how to write creatively, such as language of persuasion etc. You say it shouldn't be necessary to study English after Junior Cert, but the fact is when it comes down to it, English is used in much more situations, speeches, etc so it is important to get it right if indeed English is the working language of Ireland.

Not everyone wants to be creative and as witty as you. People get by just fine with English prior to the leaving cert. I appreciate your stance on the matter, but leaving cert level English is not a requirement to get by in today's world. People can be creative in their writing without reading some hogwash from Shakespeare and whatever other nonsense you can find that's not applicable to current day English.

Jakkass wrote: »

I would consider English being optional, but it would take a lot more consideration than making Irish optional.

You've already made this clear. No need to repeat yourself. I accepted your stance the first time. I believe the opposite and I have outlined why. No need for us to run around in circles about this.

luckylucky

dlofnep wrote: »

I believe the opposite and I have outlined why. No need for us to run around in circles about this.

I think that's what ye both are doing now tbh, ye both have made valid points given your different outlook and you're never going to agree. Let's hope this Plean2008 can work out something that suits all such diverse attitudes towards Irish.

dlofnep

I agree. If we can get back on topic and not totally derail what is otherwise a great thread.

I believe that there is currently and obvious flaw in the Irish education. Should we learn a language for 13 years, the minimum expectation should be fluency in that language. We should accept nothing less.

Now that's all good and well for me to say without outlining how this will become possible. And I have outlined this a few times already. I believe the most important introduction to the Irish curriculum is a conversational Irish class, seperate from Irish grammar class. This will give students the confidence they need to speak the language, and also learn the language at a much quicker rate than previously before. I think scenarios where people attending conversational courses are evident proof that the learning curve is at a much quicker rate, and also projects like Des Bishop's year at a Gaeltacht.

I think ideas like giving more points for the Orals are flawed from the get go, as if we do not allow more time for conversational Irish, then giving more points for the Orals is not reflective of the curriculum as nothing is really changing.

I've already submitted my form for plean2028, as have many of my friends - all of which have contributed some very practical solutions. I hope they take it onboard and stop wasting time on redundant and half-hearted ideas like "Oh, lets give more money for road signs" or "More weight for Orals!".

Corruptedmorals

13 years? I don't remember doing Irish before 1st class. Even with TY that makes 12 years. 11 is the average tbh.

Anyway, yeah I agree the Irish curriculm is god-awful. There needs to be more emphasis on grammar in primary school, and much more of an emphasis in how to actually learn useful everyday Irish and extend vocabulary instead of delving into the poet's sense of loneliness in Poem X. Bleuughh. Most people I know either hated Irish because of this, or wanted to learn, regretted the awful curriculm, couldn't cope with Higher, had to do ordinary etc. This leads to points disaster if the person is also poor at Maths and doing ordinary there as well.

Irish is one of my subjects in college now. There was this huge leap between it and LC Irish and it was a shock realisation to learn of the sheer depth of grammar I was never taught, but several others taking the subject were because they were in gaelscoils/lived in a galtacht most of their lives.

As fot the current argument, both Irish and English need to be kept compulsory.

PurpleFistMixer

More weight for orals is a step in the right direction. It could be loosely accurate to say that the amount of classtime devoted to a section is proportional to that section's worth in the exams (I think it's clear I've been up till 2 doing physics), so if the oral was worth 75%, lord knows teachers would have to concentrate on it.

Unfortunately for us, people seem to think it's more important to learn "exam tricks" (courtesy of revision books perhaps), in the form of "key phrases", ie "learn everything off", instead of concentrating on the matter at hand, which is learning to communicate in Irish. I've found it myself. My casual Irish is fairly terrible, but I can tell you things about my school nobody would be interested in anyway. And I've got plenty vocabulary for debating the education system (would you believe it!), but I couldn't write an informal journal entry.

To briefly address the long discussion above, like it or not, Irish has some deep cultural connections to Ireland, and culture is quite an important thing to groups of people who are connected to each other (in this case for example, through our families, through living on the same island, through living under the same government, shared experiences, whatever). If we start completing ignoring culture how bizarrely fabricated will our society be?
This is getting a bit too philosophical though, and it's far too late, and my brain is fried.

Long story short, let's make the Irish course more enjoyable so at least people will stop giving out about how it's forced on them. I didn't much enjoy English being compulsory, but jaysus you wouldn't believe it, sometimes not everything goes your way.

eVeNtInE

This post has been deleted.

cautioner

He was wearing his PYJAMAS... on the BUS!:pac:

MathsManiac

Haven't read the whole thread from the start, but just looking at the last page to date, I wanted to point out that English is NOT compulsory for senior-cycle students. Irish is the only compulsory subject as far as the Department's rules are concerned (unless you have an exemption). Any other "compulsions" are imposed by the school, usually in recognition of the fact that most universities require them for matriculation.

kwestfan08

cautioner wrote: »

He was wearing his PYJAMAS... on the BUS!:pac:

LOL

EamonnKeane

cautioner wrote: »

He was wearing his PYJAMAS... on the BUS!:pac:

He said the secretary could be on the CAMOGIE TEAM LOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!1111111!!!!

andrew

I think It depends a huge amount on what teacher you have. My LC teacher was the best teacher I've ever had, and the sole reason I'm any good at Irish. The Dept. of Edu need to cop on and change the LC course from a Literary one to a Spoken one (or whatever alternative there is). It's a joke doing a literary course in a language which is spoken little and read and written even less.

Sabrina411

In my opinion the irish exams are the problems...months are spent studying the emotions in stories and poems that are needed for them but very little time is actually spent on developing our irish...

What I am trying to say is that I could not have a proper conversation with you in irish yet i got an A in the j.c and find it easy in school...i feel cheated because the actual exams are not testing my level of irish just my ability to learn what they want me to...

does anyone feel the same...or is it just me?!

PurpleFistMixer

You may find that that opinion is echoed in numerous posts in this thread. : p