Urgent Meeting

Sparks

Wrong thread Trauma?

Traumadoc

Yep sorry was late last night.

bunny shooter

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

the Midland practical pistol range??

The pistol range at Midlands is not a practical pistol range. It is a pistol range.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

I was just on the phone to the NTSA Chairman and he'd like to know who sent that list in as well.

Any ideas?

Oh I'd say ye know alright :rolleyes:

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Oh I'd say ye know alright :rolleyes:

Do elaborate please bunny. People need to know.

fishdog

you'd have to wonder how the practical lads could make a range safe when there's no fixed firing point, no fixed butts or backstop and a possible 360 degree arc of fire (not to mention elevation).

I know that you meant to say 180 degrees here, so I am not trying to be smart. However the "charge lines" that indicate your arcs of fire for each stage are frequently reduced to far less than this to suit the conditions (ie the size and orientation of backstops) ensuring the safety of the participants and spectators. Personally I can not recall ever seeing a stage where arcs of fire were 180 degrees.

Each stage is meticulously designed to ensure that safety is paramount, taking into account the backstop height, the orientation of the shooter etc. This seems to mean that the stage designers rarely have time to compete themselves! All stage designs then have to be checked and approved by a third party.

IPSC shooting is enjoyed is on many continents including Europe, Australia, Central and South America, and Africa with millions of rounds per year shot without incident.

I can not see what makes Ireland so different from the rest of the world!!

My own first hand experience with the IPSA is that safety and training comes first. If you are in any doubt about this, why not come and watch a competition and make up your own mind?

rrpc

fishdog wrote: »

IPSC shooting is enjoyed is on many continents including Europe, Australia, Central and South America, and Africa with millions of rounds per year shot without incident.

I can not see what makes Ireland so different from the rest of the world!!

My own first hand experience with the IPSA is that safety and training comes first. If you are in any doubt about this, why not come and watch a competition and make up your own mind?

Fishdog, this isn't about me. I don't make these decisions (nor do I want to).

The point is that if you take the range standards that have already been instituted here it's pretty difficult to assess how the same level of safety can be applied when the firing point and direction of firing is always changing. In addition, on our range and many others, loaded firearms must be pointing down range at all times until unloaded and checked by a range officer.

Taking the Midlands example I gave earlier. If the targets may not be moved from the butts at all, I can't see how practical shooting could take place on that range in any circumstance other than moving forward from the firing point towards the target line.

Thyere are many other factors that will also affect safety. The probable cone of fire when a shooter is moving, is much greater than if he is stationary which would then affect other range safety factors such as butt stop height and baffle placement. The height of the backstop in Midlands is based on the JSP403 recommendations for pistol ranges based on the length of the range and a static firing stance. If you added in the possibility (for example) of a shooter lying down firing, the height of the backstop would have to be changed.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

Do elaborate please bunny. People need to know.

All the members of the FCP know

fishdog

Fishdog, this isn't about me. I don't make these decisions (nor do I want to).

I know. I was simply explaining the "arc of fire" point you were talking about, ie 180 degrees is not the norm. Safety is paramount etc...

In addition, on our range and many others, loaded firearms must be pointing down range at all times until unloaded and checked by a range officer.

I think this is normal for all ranges now. I have only ever seen it this way.

I am not a spokes person BTW, just expressing my view.

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

All the members of the FCP know

Sorry bunny, that won't cut it. I'm referring to this statement:

From what I am hearing, a certain group sometime ago sent in a list with specifications of particular handguns to the DOJ and said that they were the only type of handguns that they thought should be used for target shooting in Ireland.

and would like to know (a) who it's directed at, (b) what it's provenance is and (c) be given an opportunity to refute it because if it's (as seems to me) directed at the NTSA, then it's not true.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

Sorry bunny, that won't cut it. I'm referring to this statement:


and would like to know (a) who it's directed at, (b) what it's provenance is and (c) be given an opportunity to refute it because if it's (as seems to me) directed at the NTSA, then it's not true.

Please confirm owner of said quote, as it's not mine. Also can you give full quote so we have full context ?

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Please confirm owner of said quote, as it's not mine. Also can you give full quote so we have full context ?

It's on this thread here and it's the quote I replied to which you then quoted with this.

You appeared to know what the OP was talking about, because the post you replied to quoted the OP. So my questions still stand.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

It's on this thread here and it's the quote I replied to which you then quoted with this.

You appeared to know what the OP was talking about, because the post you replied to quoted the OP. So my questions still stand.

Hmmmm

Apparently a list of a certain type of pistol/s was handed to DOJ and/or the FCP by certain people involved in the FCP without the agreement and/or knowledge of other FCP participants ? Hence my statement "All the members of the FCP know " As the man said, there are stories circulating. I reckon the truth is out and some people are worried ? Who they may be is anyones quess though. I/we can't name a name/s on this matter, on this forum, I refer you to

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055171178

It will all come out in the washing I'd say

Sparks

Bunny, I've heard that story before. Like I said, I know where it started. And knowing where it started completely discredited the story. We can't discuss that source in here anymore though (read devore's stickies in the forum), but you can reread the discussion by using the search function.

bunny shooter

Sparks wrote: »

Bunny, I've heard that story before. Like I said, I know where it started. And knowing where it started completely discredited the story. We can't discuss that source in here anymore though (read devore's stickies in the forum), but you can reread the discussion by using the search function.

I am fully up to date on the previous discussions and DeVores stickies.

As the say in the "X Files" - "The Truth is out there".

smoke and mirrors :rolleyes:

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Hmmmm

The list was handed to DOJ by the people involved in the FCP and the other FCP members were made aware of it ? Hence my statement "All the members of the FCP know " As the man said, there are stories circulating, reckon the truth is out and some people are worried ? Who they may be is anyones quess though. We can't a name name/s on this, I refer you to

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055171178

It will all come out in the washing I'd say

It wil come out here and now if you can answer my questions directly instead of beating about the bush. Any sane person or organisation would be worried if untrue rumours are circulating about them and yes I will refer you to DeVore's post on that score. I would particularly wish to have withdrawn the scurillous allegation: "said that they were the only type of handguns that they thought should be used for target shooting in Ireland." which is complete bull.

The only list the NTSA gave the DOJ was the one that specified all the ISSF rules regarding firearms to be used in ISSF competition.

In the interests of openness, I'm attaching that document here. It was given to the DoJ at a meeting back last year before the FCP was set up, and was in reference to the draft restricted list which if it had continued in it's then form would have restricted certain Olympic Air Rifles among others.

This list was also produced at an FCP user group meeting (not the full FCP) to prove that there was no such thing as a 'Pistol designed for use in Olympic competition' as stated in the SI No. 21.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

It wil come out here and now if you can answer my questions directly instead of beating about the bush. Any sane person or organisation would be worried if untrue rumours are circulating about them and yes I will refer you to DeVore's post on that score. I would particularly wish to have withdrawn the scurillous allegation: "said that they were the only type of handguns that they thought should be used for target shooting in Ireland." which is complete bull.

The only list the NTSA gave the DOJ was the one that specified all the ISSF rules regarding firearms to be used in ISSF competition.

In the interests of openness, I'm attaching that document here. It was given to the DoJ at a meeting back last year before the FCP was set up, and was in reference to the draft restricted list which if it had continued in it's then form would have restricted certain Olympic Air Rifles among others.

This list was also produced at an FCP user group meeting (not the full FCP) to prove that there was no such thing as a 'Pistol designed for use in Olympic competition' as stated in the SI No. 21.

I remind you I did not make that statement you want withdrawn. I have started no rumour/s. I made a statement regarding a list being handed to DOJ, which you have confirmed happened. I didn't name individual/s or organisation/s. What exacctly am I beating around the bush about then ?

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Is this new info in the public domain ?

I'm not sure what you mean by this bunny. The spec sheet attached is a synopsis of the ISSF rulebook, which we have supplied to other people in the past and is easily downloadable from the ISSF website.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

I'm not sure what you mean by this bunny. The spec sheet attached is a synopsis of the ISSF rulebook, which we have supplied to other people in the past and is easily downloadable from the ISSF website.

I deleted this post as I rethought my response, posted above (for benefit of those who haven't seen my deleted post)

Sparks

It's not an effort at smoke and mirrors bunny. Go search for the sandbox or how to derail a thread and you'll see precisely what I mean.

The list that RRPC mentioned by the way, I can confirm - because it's a list I originally drew up myself. This was before the FCP, before the CJA and if I remember correctly, before even the final CJB was published. It comes from an australian target shooting webpage and it's a list of photos of ISSF pistols and it's marked as such. The point of it was to show what the ISSF rulebook was referring to, because the DoJ had no mental image of target shooting pistols (they did have a very solid image of the handguns in use by terrorist groups at the time, and we wanted some seperation from that image). At the time, the DoJ had been told by the source of the rumours you're discussing that 9mm glock pistols were used in the Olympics. We were asked about that. We pointed out that they weren't since there are no centrefire pistols in the Olympics (they went off the programme in the early 70s with the 300m rifle events because of the cost of building new ranges for them and the increasing pressure on space in the Olympic Village). At no time that I know of or have heard about has it ever been suggested that it's a list of the only pistols that ought to be allowed. We were not the only group meeting the DoJ at that time by the way - we were one of at least a half-dozen.

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

I remind you I did not make that statement you want withdrawn. I have started no rumour/s. I made a statement regarding a list being handed to DOJ, which you have confirmed happened. I didn't name individual/s or organisation/s. What exacctly am I beating around the bush about then ?

You didn't make the statement, and I never said that you did. However you certainly affirmed it without equivocation.

Pretty much everything in that post is untrue. There was no list of firearms, no list of pistols, no blanket statement about 'the only pistols to be used for target shooting', no going behind the FCP's backs (because they weren't in existence at the time) and the situation we are supposedly responsible for (range standards) have nothing whatsoever to do with a list of firearms used in ISSF competition.

Chinese whispers indeed :mad:

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

I was just on the phone to the NTSA Chairman and he'd like to know who sent that list in as well.

Any ideas?

Seems ye knew all along ?

As I said smoke and mirrors.

Gunter Mauser

As Bertie would did say.... Lads its all Smoke & Daggers... its the little
things that trip you up in the end.:)

Sparks

Here's the list of pictures mentioned above. As to smoke and mirrors, I'm pretty sure I know who's been blowing smoke up whom and it's not the first time it's happened, and the upshot of the last time this was gone through was that the source ended up hoist by his own petard.



It's taken from a list of suggested pistols to buy, hence the "preference" bit on the side.

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Seems ye knew all along ?

As I said smoke and mirrors.

Bunny, please address the post I made above. No list of firearms was ever submitted to the DoJ.

The list that was submitted was of rules relating to firearms allowed for ISSF competition. And seeing as those rules could conceivably allow anything from a Walther P22 to a Glock 17 I can't see how that could be construed as "the only type of handguns that they thought should be used for target shooting in Ireland". Especially as the list also included rifles.

If you have such a list, please post it here and explain it's provenance and also when and by whom it was submitted to the DoJ.

You can do it by PM if you like. I have absolutely no problem with this.

rrpc

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

As Bertie would did say.... Lads its all Smoke & Daggers... its the little
things that trip you up in the end.:)

No Gunter, I didn't know all along. It appears that bunny is talking about another list entirely, or at least that's what it seems to me because the list I'm talking about included all firearms and was a list of rules. Bunny and others seem to be talking about a list of pistols being submitted to the DoJ, and I don't know nor does anyone else I've asked know where this originated.

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

Bunny, please address the post I made above. No list of firearms was ever submitted to the DoJ.

The list that was submitted was of rules relating to firearms allowed for ISSF competition. And seeing as those rules could conceivably allow anything from a Walther P22 to a Glock 17 I can't see how that could be construed as "the only type of handguns that they thought should be used for target shooting in Ireland". Especially as the list also included rifles.

If you have such a list, please post it here and explain it's provenance and also when and by whom it was submitted to the DoJ.

You can do it by PM if you like. I have absolutely no problem with this.

Looks like a list of pistols to me. No sign of any glocks 17's , H&K's USP's, Sig.P226's as I know them

Sparks

Which list BS, the list of photos I've put up or the other list that rrpc put up?

bunny shooter

rrpc wrote: »

No Gunter, I didn't know all along. It appears that bunny is talking about another list entirely, or at least that's what it seems to me because the list I'm talking about included all firearms and was a list of rules. Bunny and others seem to be talking about a list of pistols being submitted to the DoJ, and I don't know nor does anyone else I've asked know where this originated.

Yesterday you knew of no list now there are a few...........................:rolleyes:

Maybe it's time to stop digging ?

rrpc

bunny shooter wrote: »

Looks like a list of pistols to me. No sign of any glocks 17's , H&K's USP's, Sig.P226's as I know them

Well obviously if you don't want to show us this list, then the only conclusion I can draw is that this is more mischief making on the part of someone who is trying to drive a wedge between the shooting bodies on the FCP for their own selfish reasons.