Interview with Francis Collins...

kelly1

Hello all,

I found an article that I think you may be interested in reading. It's an interview with Francis Collins, a geneticist who lead the human genome project, discussing his conversion to Christianity. I dare say it might strike a chord with some of you.

Article is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html

See also:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OF-YSMKCVwMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22mere+christianity%22&sig=XLlWmQsQsvZIab73iPlMM_rmzQ0

God bless,
Noel.

adamd164

What I've always hated about Collins is the way he just declares god to be beyond science. I call that defeatest.

Playboy

adamd164 wrote: »

What I've always hated about Collins is the way he just declares god to be beyond science. I call that defeatest.

:rolleyes:

Pompey Magnus

Isn't he the guy who decided God exists after he saw a frozen waterfall? I can't a person seriously who would change their entire world view because of something so explainable.

As for his belief that because people do deeds which puts their life at risk this must mean there is more than genes at play but rather something devine, I would suggest he read The Selfish Gene where Dawkins easily explains the benefits for such actions.

Dades

Ah, good for Collins.

Though I was hoping for more of a tangible explanation of his conversion. It sounds like he is (and was always subliminally) into the whole concept of a benevolent designer, and went with the local variation when he decided to believe.

It's not the designer concept that annoys me - it's the completely inexplicable leap taken from belief in a 'universe designer', to belief in a single one of a thousand personal gods.

JimiTime

Cheers for that Noel. really enjoyed it. Gives me hope in the worlds 'wise' men after all.

2Scoops

Dades wrote: »

It's not the designer concept that annoys me - it's the completely inexplicable leap taken from belief in a 'universe designer', to belief in a single one of a thousand personal gods.

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

adamd164

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Isn't he the guy who decided God exists after he saw a frozen waterfall? I can't a person seriously who would change their entire world view because of something so explainable.

Yes, in three layers after the trinity.:rolleyes: A great scientist, but of questionable common sense to say the least.

adamd164

2Scoops wrote: »

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

Yes, that's a good point. You'll usually find that it's the religious who employ such arguments."Newton was a religious fanatic..." -- so what? What the hell does it prove? That you cannot think for yourself, but need to follow the lead of someone you perceive to be more intelligent? How sad.

adamd164

On a personal note, I'd like to thank noel also for reinforcing the notion that's been in my mind regarding the religious. They're absolutely running scared. Just look at the number of them on here trying to stir it up. Few decades back, they were controlling the country, no one would dare question them. They're reduced to trying to convince us of their arguments by linking interviews with scientists and using reductio ad absurdum logic to demonstrate that Darwinism = social tyranny.

FAO atheists: hold your heads up and smile! Promising times indeed. Cheers noel; brightened up my day, this has.

Red Hand

Dades wrote: »

It's not the designer concept that annoys me - it's the completely inexplicable leap taken from belief in a 'universe designer', to belief in a single one of a thousand personal gods.

Designer brands are always popular amongst some people. Think John Rocha-would you walk down the street in something he designed? I wouldn't (nor would I pay for it either). But plenty do...

Er, wrong forum!:p:pac:

JimiTime

adamd164 wrote: »

On a personal note, I'd like to thank noel also for reinforcing the notion that's been in my mind regarding the religious. They're absolutely running scared. Just look at the number of them on here trying to stir it up. Few decades back, they were controlling the country, no one would dare question them. They're reduced to trying to convince us of their arguments by linking interviews with scientists and using reductio ad absurdum logic to demonstrate that Darwinism = social tyranny.

FAO atheists: hold your heads up and smile! Promising times indeed. Cheers noel; brightened up my day, this has.

I'd say there are a hell of alot of religious, especially the intitutions themselves, running scared. An informed faithful Christian will know however, that all of this must come to pass before the day of judgement. So while I don't like to see people rejecting God, i rejoice in the fact that i am witnessing the beginning of the precedent, that will likely topple religion and bring on the end times. The rise of atheism, enhances faith and strengthens the heart of the faithful. For it glorifies God to those that know him. He once again shows that if he said it, it will come to pass.

iUseVi

JimiTime wrote: »

I'd say there are a hell of alot of religious, especially the intitutions themselves, running scared. An informed faithful Christian will know however, that all of this must come to pass before the day of judgement. So while I don't like to see people rejecting God, i rejoice in the fact that i am witnessing the beginning of the precedent, that will likely topple religion and bring on the end times. The rise of atheism, enhances faith and strengthens the heart of the faithful. For it glorifies God to those that know him. He once again shows that if he said it, it will come to pass.

Christians of every era have thought they are witnessing the "end of days".

-The apocalypse has been predicted in these years:
247, 365, 500, 848, 992, 1184, 1290, 1335, 1524, 1603, 1716, 1763, 1792, 1805, 1843, 1844, 1845, 1878, 1910, 1914, 1936, 1945, 1952, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and many more!

See this site for more comprehensive lists.
http://www.abhota.info/index.htm

The Christians I know have been banging on about this for at least the last 10 years in my memory, even making "prophecies" of "the coming" in 2 years time etc... Needless to say it never happened.

However, the evidence suggests that this enthusiasm is misplaced. To begin with, the events that Jesus lists as signifying the beginning of the tribulation period, including "wars and rumors of wars... famines, pestilences and earthquakes" (Matthew 24:6-7) are far too unspecific to serve as signs. All of these things have been occurring continuously for the entire span of human history.

From here:
http://ebonmusings.org/atheism/2000years.html

Verses such as this:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom." -- Matthew16:28

-should worry you I should think. It is not the only verse that clearly implies that "the coming" would be in the life time of some of those that were around when the text was written.

Tim Robbins

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I found an article that I think you may be interested in reading. It's an interview with Francis Collins, a geneticist who lead the human genome project, discussing his conversion to Christianity. I dare say it might strike a chord with some of you.

Article is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html

See also:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OF-YSMKCVwMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22mere+christianity%22&sig=XLlWmQsQsvZIab73iPlMM_rmzQ0

God bless,
Noel.

I am shocked that a Scientist would have intellectual respect for CS Lewis.
Mere Christianity is full of sloppy logic and glaring fallacies.
There is strong data to suggest that Chimps have a moral framework similar to are own, based on empathy and altruism. There are also plenty of evolutionary reasons for morality, we don't need the G man to explain it.

Very suprised seeing Collins come out with this.

Although, I do notice that Scientists that claim to be Christian seem to know very little about Philosophy, I wonder would Collins fit into that camp.

Again the morality thing was refuted by Plato, that's before Christianity even got going.

JimiTime

iUseVi wrote: »

Christians of every era have thought they are witnessing the "end of days".

-The apocalypse has been predicted in these years:
247, 365, 500, 848, 992, 1184, 1290, 1335, 1524, 1603, 1716, 1763, 1792, 1805, 1843, 1844, 1845, 1878, 1910, 1914, 1936, 1945, 1952, 1969, 1981, 1982, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and many more!

See this site for more comprehensive lists.
http://www.abhota.info/index.htm

The Christians I know have been banging on about this for at least the last 10 years in my memory, even making "prophecies" of "the coming" in 2 years time etc... Needless to say it never happened.

And people are still making predictions. Just misinformed, decievers, stupid or something else. It will be as a thief in the night is what we are told. Hardly makes sense if we knew the hour the thief was coming now would it! Showing what some profesing christians did/said etc, doesn't really prove anything to me.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I found an article that I think you may be interested in reading. It's an interview with Francis Collins, a geneticist who lead the human genome project, discussing his conversion to Christianity. I dare say it might strike a chord with some of you.

Article is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/questionofgod/voices/collins.html

See also:

http://books.google.com/books?id=OF-YSMKCVwMC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22mere+christianity%22&sig=XLlWmQsQsvZIab73iPlMM_rmzQ0

God bless,
Noel.

It does, though possibly not for the reason you would hope

From the interview Collins strikes me as more of an agnostic who decided later in life that it would be nicer if God existed.

He seemed to have a level of self loathing that I think often brings people towards "spirituality", as a way of correcting and bringing back into control areas of their lives they are not happy with.

People who are searching for what a religious person might call "higher answers" will find that religious such as Christianity appear to offer them. This can be very inviting for some people.

His interview is rather telling. He claims he didn't believe in God, but also claims that this made him a not very nice fellow. He claims he didn't want to go searching for God, but for some reason he was talking to priests and reading C.S Lewis (I agree with Tim, I'm not sure how anyone considers Mere Christianity convincing in any regard, particularly the moral law bit.).

He claims he wanted to reject all this, but those claims ring rather hollow. He seems to have had no intellectual bases for atheism at all (which is why agnostic is probably more appropriate) and he seemed to have had a large hole in his life that religion offered to fill.

pH

2Scoops wrote: »

What annoys me is that Collins' opinion is taken as somehow more significant than that of any other Christian simply because he is a scientist. I mean, seriously, why are Christians so fascinated and obsessed with claiming scientists among their adherents?

Because the debate has moved on (at least for most theists debating this). It's not about whether God exists or not, it's now about which is the cleverer, smarter, more intelligent thing to believe - theism or atheism.

I guess in the past believers where happy that there were some clearly delusional folks out there who didn't believe in God. However now (some) atheists are saying "Not only don't we believe in god, but anyone who does is a prize idiot". Lists of so called smart people who believe in God are the theist's means of rebutting this - "We're not dumb - look at all these brainy folks who believe"

It's a subtle distinction but the debate has turned this way, it's even more pronounced when the philosophers join in - the *sole* purpose of any of their posts being to prove how smart they are, whichever side of the fence (or even on it) they sit.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

was just reading hitchens 'god is not great' and I was laughing a bit at his insistance that there were religious people who were actually waiting, desiring, for the end times. No one would be that crazy I said to myself.



wow jimi... wow.

JimiTime

Mordeth wrote: »

was just reading hitchens 'god is not great' and I was laughing a bit at his insistance that there were religious people who were actually waiting, desiring, for the end times. No one would be that crazy I said to myself.



wow jimi... wow.

Nice way to misrepresent there mordeth! You make it sound like I'm here with my AK47 or something. Its simple, seeing things prophesised starting to come into being is a cause for delight, for as i said, it Glorifies God to the faithful. Thats not like, 'oh i can't wait'. I merely pointed out that Adams point about religious folk running scared about the rise of Atheism is not something that the faithful would be anxious about as it is inevitable that it will. Your misrepresentation does raise a great point though. There are those who wait anxiously for gods appointed time. This is certainly not wise, as those who do are suceptible to the crackpots who start mentioning dates and telling folk to 'prepare' etc. To the faithful, life goes on, we're not anxiously waiting, but calmly getting on with life. With me, its simply, looking about and knowing that these things must happen. While everyone is in a tizzy about Global warming, I reason that its probably the beginning of the earths 'Pangs of distress' as Jesus told us of. I see the rise of the 'wisdom' of man and the idiocising of belief in God to be yet another step. Again, rather than running scared, as I said, It just strenthens my faith.

Nice try though. Its an awful pity that you equated what I said to the doomsday waiters though. I'm sure there are so many others like yourself just waiting the pounce on anything to claim it as proof of our 'delusion' or 'wackiness'. Ah well.
.....Now wheres me bullets.

adamd164

You see, Jimi, if every theist was like yourself, happy to let atheism spread, safe in the knowledge that the faithful will get their dues, and not trying to indoctrinate kids in schools, there'd be no problems. Unfortunately, you seem to be in a significant minority.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

misrepresent?
you're looking forward to armageddon.

you are looking forward to the destruction of the planet and the eternal damnation of a good chunk of the human race. Bullets or no, that's all kinds of ****ed up.

JimiTime

Mordeth wrote: »

misrepresent?
you're looking forward to armageddon.

you are looking forward to the destruction of the planet and the eternal damnation of a good chunk of the human race. Bullets or no, that's all kinds of ****ed up.

LOL. Ok mordeth, Ok.

iUseVi

Since we are talking about armageddon, what distresses me is the fact that some christians are so convinced that it is coming soon. They think they are freed from responisbility and things like "recycling" and "clean energy" are pointless. After all God is just gonna create a new heaven and a new earth right!?
Of course Jimi you would never have disrespect for Gods creation in this way, but there are so many that do! I think it actually has a real impact on the environment! Of course there are atheists who also don't give a f*** about the planet, but the christians reasons are seriously f***ed up.

Zillah

JimiTime wrote: »

Cheers for that Noel. really enjoyed it. Gives me hope in the worlds 'wise' men after all.

*smacks forehead*

Dades

adamd164 wrote: »

On a personal note, I'd like to thank noel also for reinforcing the notion that's been in my mind regarding the religious. They're absolutely running scared. Just look at the number of them on here trying to stir it up.

Then what are all the heathens on the Christianity up to?!

Pompey Magnus

JimiTime wrote: »

And people are still making predictions. Just misinformed, decievers, stupid or something else. It will be as a thief in the night is what we are told. Hardly makes sense if we knew the hour the thief was coming now would it! Showing what some profesing christians did/said etc, doesn't really prove anything to me.

I laugh when I see people making predictions about the end of the world. Even Jesus pointed out that he didn't know when the world would end, Jesus is God and even he was ignorant of the end so for some Christians to claim to have worked it out is a pretty ambitious claim.

JimiTime

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Even Jesus pointed out that he didn't know when the world would end, so for some Christians to claim to have worked it out is a pretty ambitious claim.

Amen to that. a s a christian, its a very interesting topic for me, but I'd never get bogged down with it.

JimiTime

Zillah wrote: »

*smacks forehead*

Not hard enough:D

iUseVi

JimiTime wrote: »

Amen to that. a s a christian, its a very interesting topic for me, but I'd never get bogged down with it.

That's a very healthy attitude Jimi, compared to most Christians I know.:D

adamd164

Dades wrote: »

Then what are all the heathens on the Christianity up to?!

My only point is that not so long ago, the religious wouldn't need to justify themselves to us. I'm not saying atheists don't go on there too.

Zombrex

JimiTime wrote: »

Amen to that. a s a christian, its a very interesting topic for me, but I'd never get bogged down with it.

JimiTime wrote:

So while I don't like to see people rejecting God, i rejoice in the fact that i am witnessing the beginning of the precedent, that will likely topple religion and bring on the end times.

You must be busy though with all the rejoicing of the beginning of the end ...

I'm probably not supposed to, but I do take quiet comfort though playing a small part in the oncoming Armageddon