Britain should invade Zimbabwe

El Stuntman

ominous silence from Zim at the moment

dfx-

And it's such silence that he'll thrive on. Quietly...ahem...convincing people of his value as leader....shhh, shhhh

darkman2

williambonney wrote: »

With all this nonsense going on in Zimbabwe at the moment I think it is time for the British to act. They have an obligation to the unfortunate people of that former colony. They should have a quiet word with Mugabe and tell him that the game is up. That half wit Mbeki should be brought to one side and told to stay out of it or suffer the consequences (economic and military). I know the British armed forces are stretched a bit at the moment, (other NATO countries could take up more slack in Afghanistan to help them out.) but it wouldn’t take much to put manners on the ramshackle Zimbabwe “military”. They would probably run as soon as they see the first paratrooper’s descending on them. They would certainly be no match for a European army. But I think the threat would be enough.

hat do you propose they invade with? They are overstretched as it is.

Belfast

williambonney wrote: »

With all this nonsense going on in Zimbabwe at the moment I think it is time for the British to act. They have an obligation to the unfortunate people of that former colony. They should have a quiet word with Mugabe and tell him that the game is up. That half wit Mbeki should be brought to one side and told to stay out of it or suffer the consequences (economic and military). I know the British armed forces are stretched a bit at the moment, (other NATO countries could take up more slack in Afghanistan to help them out.) but it wouldn’t take much to put manners on the ramshackle Zimbabwe “military”. They would probably run as soon as they see the first paratrooper’s descending on them. They would certainly be no match for a European army. But I think the threat would be enough.

No. The last time they negotiated a treaty in 1980 they handed the country to Mugabe.
The history of outside intervention in most countries is not good.

meathstevie

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Ok the country is in a bit of a state, but as a former colony ourselves we should be the last ones advocating a british invasion of a foreign country. We should have learnt the lesson by now.

Don't know about you man but if we were under a Mugabe style dictatorship I think most people would be quite happy the day they see British parachutes ( or French or American or German or whatever for that matter ) bloom open over Dublin Airport or a company of tanks heading for Dundalk knowing that help is on the way..

ART6

Some points I can't resist making:o

Several subscribers have suggested that the Brits should invade Zimbabwe. Sounds a little odd coming from a forum in a fiercely neutral country.

Why does Britain have any responsibility for Zimbabwe? They handed over the government and independance of the country to RM after forcing out the UDI white government of what was then Rhodesia, insisting that the country should be governed by the will of the majority, black and white alike. That is what Zimbabwe got. They can't be expected to now take the whole lot back by force of arms because the people make a b***s of it.

It's all the fault of the white farmers who were exploiting to poor blacks? OK, they were not, perhaps, the most generous of employers, but they provided a living to unskilled people who would otherwise have had nothing.

Other African countries should be doing something? We are dealing here with an essentially tribal continent where the concept of democracy Western style is incomprehensible. Most other countries in SA have big problems of their own, and I am sure their politicians, many of whom are Western educated, are fully aware of the bomb with the lighted fuse that is simmering.

South Africa has it's own big problems. There the Black Empowerment programme (so a South African business colleague tells me) has placed black South Africans in positions of authority in industry and commerce by requiring that 30% of senior employees must be black. As a result many of the engineers, mining technologists, etc etc (and no, they are not all ex Brits -- many are of Chinese, Indian, German, French, Dutch descent) have left the country for greener grass elsewhere.

Robert Mugabe will disregard the elections and continue to rule the country by oppression unless the Brits/UN/ USA/God intervene? He is over eighty and won't live forever (or even much longer). When he pops his clogs the country will descend into civil war (you read it here first). Then will be the time for the UN to act, if they can pursuade the Chinese to behave themselves.

Meanwhile, if we believe in a civilised world where we don't use military force against anyone who doesn't conform to our particular philosophy, then we must accept that at times we are going to see things that deeply upset us. We cannot save every persecuted person and every starving child on the planet, and we cannot drive out of power every elected leader who goes bad.

I will now put my head firmly below the parapet and wait for the bullets to come whizzing over:)

djpbarry

ART6 wrote: »

We are dealing here with an essentially tribal continent where the concept of democracy Western style is incomprehensible.

I can't wait to hear your explanation for this statement.

bartholomewbinn

“Sounds a little odd coming from a forum in a fiercely neutral country.”

Ireland is far from “fiercely neutral” we happen to have a sort of Irish solution to an Irish problem type of neutrality. I will grant you that there is a very vocal minority who would describe themselves as “fiercely neutral” but then very vocal minorities make a lot of noise

dfx-

ART6 wrote: »

Meanwhile, if we believe in a civilised world where we don't use military force against anyone who doesn't conform to our particular philosophy, then we must accept that at times we are going to see things that deeply upset us. We cannot save every persecuted person and every starving child on the planet, and we cannot drive out of power every elected leader who goes bad.

*aims bullet*

We can neither stand idly by whilst he selectively kills his own increasingly defenceless people.

ART6

djpbarry wrote: »

I can't wait to hear your explanation for this statement.

I don't pretent to be an expert on the African continent although I have done business there on and off for many years. However, my understanding from my own observations and discussions with SA friends is that the continent is largely occupied by tribes with very long histories where the chief or king or leader made the decisions and the people accepted them without question. They didn't generally elect their king every five years. That doesn't mean they can't have or don't want democracy western style. It just suggests to me that they are more likely to become victims of a corruption of democracy.

dfx- wrote: »

*aims bullet*

We can neither stand idly by whilst he selectively kills his own increasingly defenceless people.

In an ideal world I would entirely agree with you. What has happened under his rule is a disgrace to humanity. But where do we start? There are other brutal dictatorships in this world now and there will be others in the future. How do we deal with all of them? Who is "we"? Perhaps one way would be to make the UN a global organisation with every country a member, and establish a world police force under it's banner operating much like a national police force where it serves the people but is not answerable to them. Now the only problems become who polices the police and how do you get all the nations in the world to agree to it?

Kev_ps3

dfx- wrote: »

*aims bullet*

We can neither stand idly by whilst he selectively kills his own increasingly defenceless people.

He isnt killing his own people. If anyone is, the west is with its sanctions.

mike65

This thread seems to have forgotten its based on an event that will not happen. Maybe it should be in the Walter Mitty forum.

Meanwhile in SA the natives are beating and killing refugees many of whom are from Zim.

Mike.

bartholomewbinn

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

He isnt killing his own people. If anyone is, the west is with its sanctions.

Mugabe’s security forces are not killing Zimbabwean’s? What planet do you live on?
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-oe-meredith8apr08,0,1605208.story

Victor

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

He isnt killing his own people.

Of course he isn't - thats someone else's job.

His people are killing MDC supporters though.

meathstevie

mike65 wrote: »

This thread seems to have forgotten its based on an event that will not happen. Maybe it should be in the Walter Mitty forum.

Meanwhile in SA the natives are beating and killing refugees many of whom are from Zim.

Mike.

Anyone any idea what the tribal backgrounds are ? Personally I can see serious trouble brewing in SA in the not too distant future.

the_syco

williambonney wrote: »

former colony

Be careful what you wish for, me hearties!

mike65

meathstevie wrote: »

Anyone any idea what the tribal backgrounds are ? Personally I can see serious trouble brewing in SA in the not too distant future.

It not tribal, its economics 3 million immigrants v poor locals. Basicly anyone who isn't a native South African is open to aggression. The place is a time-bomb thanks to the Mbeki governments lack of vision and energy.

Mike.

ART6

meathstevie wrote: »

Anyone any idea what the tribal backgrounds are ? Personally I can see serious trouble brewing in SA in the not too distant future.

AFAIK there are around 400 tribes in the whole continent of Africa, and 2 main ones in Zimbabwe -- Shona and Ndebele (75% and 20% each). Mugabe is Shona (not surprisingly). He is also a Roman Catholic but clearly not a follower of the teachings of the Church:o

The suggestion earlier that it's Western sanctions that are killing his people might be viewed in the light of the following quote from Wikipedia:

The Gukurahundi (Shona: "the early rain which washes away the chaff before the spring rains"[1]) refers to an armed conflict between the Zimbabwe Government and rebels led by Joshua Nkomo. The Zimbabwean Fifth Brigade, led by Perence Shiri, killed suspected members and supporters of the Zimbabwe African People's Union in the Ndebele provinces of Matabeleland and the Midlands from 1982 to the late 1980s. Most reliable accounts believe that at least 10,000 Ndebele were killed in the conflict by the Fifth Brigade. [2] [3]

Fratton Fred

Mugabe is a saint compared to Sadam yet look at the grief the Brtish and Americans have had over that war.

I fail to see any difference between that conflict and what has been suggested here.

Victor

This doesn't look good. Note that soldiers are being deployed "to help police control political violence" - not to stop violence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7429238.stm

Troops 'must back Mugabe or quit'

Zimbabwe's army chief has told soldiers they must leave the military if they do not vote for incumbent President Robert Mugabe in next month's run-off poll.

Chief-of-staff Maj Gen Martin Chedondo said soldiers had signed up to protect Mr Mugabe's principles of defending the revolution, state media reported.

"If you have other thoughts, then you should remove that uniform," he said.

Gen Chedondo was speaking at a target-shooting competition outside Harare, the Herald newspaper reported.

Zimbabwe's generals have in the past vowed never to support the main opposition candidate, Morgan Tsvangirai, if he is elected in the 27 June run-off election.


'Imperialist influence'

"Soldiers are not apolitical; only mercenaries are apolitical," said the general. "We should therefore stand behind our commander-in-chief."

He said the opposition Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) was being supported by Britain and its Western allies in a bid to regain "imperialist" influence in Zimbabwe.

Earlier, Justice Minister Patrick Chinamasa accused the intelligence services of the UK and the US of acting as a sinister third force to undermine the ruling party's revolution.

He said an opposition victory in the run-off vote would reverse the gains of the revolution and destabilise the country.


Conflict veterans

Gen Chedondo said troops were being deployed across the nation to help police control political violence before the presidential election second round.

The army denies reports by human rights groups that soldiers have been involved in instigating attacks on government opponents since the first round of voting on 29 March, which saw no overall winner emerge.

The MDC says more than 50 of its members have been killed and thousands more forced to flee their homes since the first round.

Most of Zimbabwe's generals are veterans of the conflict that led to independence in 1980.

positron

Can't believe how quickly everything degraded in Zimbabwe. I used to work with this very nice and articulate guy from Zimbabwe, and I was shocked to find out that he was all for Mugabe and he sincerely believed that the white population controlled most of good farms and state should take it off them etc! I don't know what he makes of the current situation though! A euro = 76 million Zimbabwe dollars.

Victor

And more - Tsvangirai arrested and released: http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0604/zimbabwe.html

Its rather perverse the way the Mugabe 'government' only oppresses people 'legally'. Like some before them, the oppression is always given the veneers of legitimacy.

gixerfixer

See thing here i dont get is this. Is it not possible for the British to send some from of missile (tomahawk,scud,whatever they use) to just kill mugabe? Surely they have the technology available to see where he is at a certain given time and just put an end to this whole mess.Am i missing something

Oilrig

gixerfixer wrote: »

See thing here i dont get is this. Is it not possible for the British to send some from of missile (tomahawk,scud,whatever they use) to just kill mugabe? Surely they have the technology available to see where he is at a certain given time and just put an end to this whole mess.Am i missing something

Yeah, you're missing something. You are doing the rational thing in assuming that the next in line will be better. Africa's problems will only be sorted when their leaders develop vision - ie plan for ten, twenty years ahead. At the moment they seem to work off a next day what's best for me formula.

Never discount the tribal influence in the decision making process - or the JuJu, sigh.

Climate doesn't cause famines, bad governments do. Show me an otherwise example?

Africa could feed the world... if it was run right.

Oilrig. Veteran of a dozen or more African countries, and loved it all.

auerillo

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Mugabe is a saint compared to Sadam yet look at the grief the Brtish and Americans have had over that war.

I fail to see any difference between that conflict and what has been suggested here.

I'm not sure many would agree with your definition of the term "saint" being applied to the mass murdered who is Mugabe.

In any case, Mugabe is said to be no longer in charge and a military junta comprising the head of the armed forces, the head of the police and the head of the prizon service are said to be calling the shots with Mugabe said to the the titular head.

If this is true, this seems to pave the way to block Morgan Tsvangirai from ever taking power, no matter what the result of the election for president shows.

lostexpectation

so i see famous director john boorman in letter to the IT has suggested that the west shoud fund and arm arm with high tech weapons terrorists in burma to solve the situation

djpbarry

lostexpectation wrote: »

so i see famous director john boorman in letter to the IT has suggested that the west shoud fund and arm arm with high tech weapons terrorists in burma to solve the situation

Makes sense to me; what could possibly go wrong?

mike65

Mugabe speaks

"Anyone who seeks to undermine our land reform, itself a bedrock of our politics from time immemorial, seeks our challenge, and we will challenge them, we are prepared to fight for our country, to go to war for it,"

Mike.

Simplicity

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

He isnt killing his own people. If anyone is, the west is with its sanctions.

You can't be serious? These guys have their own country. We should really leave them to it. Same with SA.
I hope I don't cause offense here but the said invaders at the time, the Dutch and whomever, built the economies. Those economies provided the countries with stability. So in the past the whole blacks being second, even third class citezens was wrong but back in the day the US was pretty much like that before they and a lot of the rest of the world developed the morals, the same morals they want to shove down every other countries throat. Even the UK/Ireland thing didn't come of age till the 90's

It may seem pretty sh1tty but at this stage they should be left to their own natural evolvment. There is a bit too much interfering going on in the world as it is. All we should be doing is giving advice. If they choose to ignore that there is not much you can do really.

I don't think we should sanction them as such bar a country taking a stance not to trade with them. I really don't think we should be bankrolling them.

On a personal note I think Mugabe is no longer on the look out for his country but for himself. He can't let go of the power and will do anything to hold on to it. He is very intelligent and I think he has something like 7 or 8 degrees... I fear he may have gone a tad mental tbh

magick

invade? no no too expensive , just arrange the SAS to take care of MR Mugabe