Union 'astonished' by high UCD pay

Sarn

Union 'astonished' by high UCD pay

Interesting, good to know there's spare cash available even with a budget deficit. Maybe the researchers who do the work and put together successful grant applications should be getting performance related bonuses instead.

Stepherunie

Not hugely surprising to be honest.

I think it has been shown time and time again, not only in UCD but in other sectors that to attract the calibre of candidates required for these positions that more money is needed.

I do believe the Chair of Science Foundation Ireland is being paid more than the Benchmarking process (I'm open to correction on which system sets his pay) recommended because that was the amount of money required to get someone with the required qualifications.

Ernie Ball

Stepherunie wrote: »

Not hugely surprising to be honest.

I think it has been shown time and time again, not only in UCD but in other sectors that to attract the calibre of candidates required for these positions that more money is needed.

This is complete and utter nonsense. First of all, the people holding these highly-remunerated positions were, for the most part, internally promoted. They were already at UCD when the Brady regime came in. (Incidentally, ever notice how the 'international search' for the absolute best possible President--we scoured the globe!--ended up hiring a guy who was already at UCD? I digress). This is cronyism, pure and simple. Second, there is no evidence whatever that we're getting value for money on these appointments or that these people are of particularly high calibre at all.

Stepherunie

And your evidence that they are not of high calibre is where???

SO what if they were internally appointed, if you ask me, someone who actually has a good knowledge of UCD already can be a good thing to have, they are more familar.

As for Brady, yes he was back at UCD, he wasn't back that long if I recall though, he had also held senior positions in bloody Harvard.

Ernie Ball

Stepherunie wrote: »

And your evidence that they are not of high calibre is where???

Look around you.

SO what if they were internally appointed, if you ask me, someone who actually has a good knowledge of UCD already can be a good thing to have, they are more familar.

So what? It demolishes your entire point that they had to be offered enormous salaries in order to be attracted to UCD.

As for Brady, yes he was back at UCD, he wasn't back that long if I recall though, he had also held senior positions in bloody Harvard.

No, actually, he didn't hold senior positions at Harvard. He was an Associate Professor. That may sound impressive however there are two facts that make it much less so:

1) It's the equivalent of Senior Lecturer (which, despite the word 'Senior' is not a particularly senior position in the Irish system);
2) Harvard is one of only two or three universities in the United States that award the title of Associate Professor to lecturers who are not tenured. At most universities in the US, you do six years as a 'tenure track' assistant professor and then one of two things happen: you are given tenure and promoted to Associate Professor or you are let go. At Harvard, it doesn't work like that. There is no real 'tenure track'. As an incoming Assistant Professor, you are given a 5-year contract. At the end of that, if you are deemed acceptable, you get another 5-year contract. When that runs out, unless you are a superstar, you are out on your arse. Harvard only tenures those they deem to be superstars and they do it either at the time of hiring (for those superstars they poach) or at the end of either of the 5-year contracts for everyone else. When you are tenured at Harvard, you are given the title Professor (aka Full Professor). Most junior staff at Harvard know they aren't going to get tenure and therefore leave for jobs where they will get tenure somewhere before their 10 years are up.

Brady was an Associate Professor when he left Harvard. That means he wasn't tenured. The equivalent position in the Irish system would be somewhere between College Lecturer (entry-level permanent) and Senior Lecturer. How long was Brady at Harvard before he left? Nine years. That means he knew he probably knew he wasn't going to get tenure.

In short, I wouldn't be too impressed by his 'Harvard experience.' He was a UCD man (at UCD from 1996). I'll let you determine what it means when a global search for 'the best' turns up a local guy.

Stepherunie

Ernie Ball wrote: »

Look around you.

Did you miss the bit where UCD is one of the top, if indeed, not the top college in Ireland in terms of there research funding??

Whilst there are a lot of issues within UCD, the ability to attract research grants and promote research is not one of them. So why not highly pay the man who co ordinates that.

As for him being internally promoted. There is nothing to say that without the salary being such as it was that he would have taken the position. Candidates may not have agreed to take the position at lower salaries.

We've not privee to the recruitment process, nor should we be.


As for Brady, fresh thinking is a bad thing? And yes, he was an associate professor but UCD were looking to modernise the University and Harvard is a modularised, forward thinking college.

And i'm the first to say the execution was appallingly flawed but to a point you have to concede that UCD is vastly different to what is was just a few years ago.

Ernie Ball

As for him being internally promoted. There is nothing to say that without the salary being such as it was that he would have taken the position. Candidates may not have agreed to take the position at lower salaries.

Or--alternative hypothesis--this could just be another example of the rankest sort of Irish cronyism. Which seems more probable: that nobody would take the position for anything less than €400,000 or my hypothesis?

We've not privee to the recruitment process, nor should we be.

I'd be willing to bet that there simply was no recruitment process in this case and that he--and the rest of the Gang of Ten--were simply appointed without an open recruitment process.

As for Brady, fresh thinking is a bad thing?

There is no evidence that any 'fresh thinking' has been engaged in. What Brady has put in place is a kind of authoritarian, top-down management that would not be out of place in a 1950s assembly line but that has nothing to do with enlightened 21st-century university management practices.

And yes, he was an associate professor but UCD were looking to modernise the University and Harvard is a modularised, forward thinking college.

Virtually every university in the United States is modularised so Brady's experience in this regard doesn't distinguish him.

Anyway, you see how well that process went.

And i'm the first to say the execution was appallingly flawed but to a point you have to concede that UCD is vastly different to what is was just a few years ago.

Different does not mean better. By most measures, it's worse.

Red Alert

Hugh Brady was not only at UCD, he was also on the selection team that selected him.

Steve.Pseudonym

@Stepherunie: I don't see why you're so doggedly trying to defend Brady&Co

RTE News wrote:

Mike Jennings described the salaries as exorbitant and shocking - particularly at a time when frontline academic staff had been given no pay increase at all in the benchmarking process, and UCD has a deficit.

I don't think anything else needs to be said.

Red Alert

Stepherunie wrote: »

We've not privee to the recruitment process, nor should we be.

As for Brady, fresh thinking is a bad thing? And yes, he was an associate professor but UCD were looking to modernise the University and Harvard is a modularised, forward thinking college.

The Irish Public who ultimately foot the bill for the university should be privee to the recuitment process - why shouldn't it be transparent?

Hugh Brady's brand of autocratic dictatorship is a bad thing. One size does not fit all, nor does micromanagement. If that's what you (and they) call forward fresh thinking then so be it.

ucdgimp

I have to agree Ernie Ball, ucd is pissing away money. It could be 4 mill on 10 staff then they all have assistants aswell. As posted before how much has brady spent on the gateway looking for a commercial partner. The prize for the architect alone was €250000 plus the fees to design it. These jokers dont take a piss without getting the ok from a consultant.
Value for money my arse. If they get paid €400000 a year, that must be to make decisions not to hire consultants

Stepherunie

Stepherunie wrote: »

Harvard is a modularised, forward thinking college.

AGH! There's something incredibly annoying about 'forward thinking' and 'moving forward' and other management speeeeek which people use to describe places of education.

ghostchant

Ernie Ball wrote: »

No, actually, he didn't hold senior positions at Harvard. He was an Associate Professor. That may sound impressive however there are two facts that make it much less so:

1) It's the equivalent of Senior Lecturer (which, despite the word 'Senior' is not a particularly senior position in the Irish system);

A quick remark that's a little besides the point:
Maybe the US system is vastly different to the Irish one, but the position of Associate Professor here is certainly higher than Senior Lecturer over here. A few the Senior Lecturers in my School have just been made Associate Professors, while others have not (so it's not just a case of renaming the job titles). Others have been Associate Professors for some time now.

Ernie Ball

ghostchant wrote: »

A quick remark that's a little besides the point:
Maybe the US system is vastly different to the Irish one, but the position of Associate Professor here is certainly higher than Senior Lecturer over here. A few the Senior Lecturers in my School have just been made Associate Professors, while others have not (so it's not just a case of renaming the job titles). Others have been Associate Professors for some time now.

This was my point: the systems are vastly different. Over here 'Associate Professor' is a lot more impressive than over there. For one thing, all lecturers in the US are 'Professors': Assistant Professors, Associate Professors, Full Professors.

Brady's position at Harvard was Associate Professor but without tenure. We don't have the exact equivalent here. The UCD equivalent of Associate Professor at most US universities (but not at Harvard) would be Senior Lecturer: it's a career grade and tenured. Because Harvard is almost unique among US universities in awarding the title of Associate Professor to staff who do not have tenure, the equivalent of Brady's Associate Professorship would have to be said to fall somewhere between College Lecturer and Senior Lecturer at UCD.

The important point is that it would be a mistake to be bowled over by the fact that Brady was an Associate Professor at Harvard before coming to UCD as though Associate Professor there were the same thing as Associate Professor here. One wonders, though, whether the hiring committee were aware of these subtleties.

ghostchant

Thanks for clearing that up. It seems crazy that grades/positions in universities are not standardised across the boards to prevent confusion, seeing as there's pretty much a constant movement of academic staff between institutions...