60kmph or 80kmph?

BBM77

Mellor wrote: »

Myth?? What are you talking about.
Of course stupid driving causes crashes, such as overtaking at bends, or ant other stupid driving.
But its fairly obvious that you are more likely to crash at higher speeds. Any rational person can see this.
Trying to drive down a narrow winding backroad at 100km/h is alot harder than at 30, so it is the speed here that is the only cause of making it more difficult and therefor making you likely to crash

The point I was trying to make is that road safety in Ireland seems to overly fixate on speeding as the cause of a large proportion of car crashes. To me when crashes are investigated the underlying cause points more in the direction of dangerous roads, poor concentration, not adapting to road – weather conditions, inexperience, poor tuition and outright stupidity. You are right Mellor, you are more likely to crash on a bad road if you are doing 100kph than 70kph but to me the root problem here is inexperience or just not driving with due care and attention. The speeding is a follow on consequence.

Bards

Ballybrickenman wrote: »

The point I was trying to make is that road safety in Ireland seems to overly fixate on speeding as the cause of a large proportion of car crashes. To me when crashes are investigated the underlying cause points more in the direction of dangerous roads, poor concentration, not adapting to road – weather conditions, inexperience, poor tuition and outright stupidity. You are right Mellor, you are more likely to crash on a bad road if you are doing 100kph than 70kph but to me the root problem here is inexperience or just not driving with due care and attention. The speeding is a follow on consequence.

the only difference between crashing at 50 Km/H and 100 Km/H is the fact that you are more likely to die at 100 Km/H than at 50 Km/H

crashes do happen at slow speeds (even more of them), its just that they aren't as reported as much. Take the ones mentioned on this page Re Superquinn and Ardkeen as examples

wellbutty

All good points but how about these scenarios:

1) You're a cop instructed to set up a speed trap in order to earn money for the government coffers
2) You're a cop instructed to set up a speed trap in order to save lives

Now ask yourself this.....which category does the ORR speed trap (with its concrete barrier to seperate traffic) most likely fit into???

Think of all the dangerous roads without regular speed traps....

Think of all those people doing 40kmh on a road with an 80kmh speed limit and will not pull over onto the hard shoulder for a few seconds to let faster cars pass.

2 weeks ago I was on the way to work at 7.30am. I was coming from the Hospital entrance heading towards the roundabout that meets the ORR, I was turning right to head towards town. I'm on the inside lane, indicating right, watching my left wing mirror for the inevitable cut-off from a black jeep that's heading for the ORR, I'm just around the corner and WOW...there's a cop car stopped in my lane (hidden by the roundabout plants/shrubs/hill) after pulling over a Ford Fiesta ON the roundabout!

Is road safety REALLY the priority? Or is it a money-making scheme for a government that's off-budget?

ChapOfDRyans

the long stretch of road thats up hill before the dunhill roundabout is where i picked up my penelty points on that road,was doing 80 and the gardi were hiding in the middle of the roundabout with a squad car at the otherside.

BBM77

wellbutty wrote: »

All good points but how about these scenarios:

1) You're a cop instructed to set up a speed trap in order to earn money for the government coffers
2) You're a cop instructed to set up a speed trap in order to save lives

Now ask yourself this.....which category does the ORR speed trap (with its concrete barrier to seperate traffic) most likely fit into???

Think of all the dangerous roads without regular speed traps....

Think of all those people doing 40kmh on a road with an 80kmh speed limit and will not pull over onto the hard shoulder for a few seconds to let faster cars pass.

2 weeks ago I was on the way to work at 7.30am. I was coming from the Hospital entrance heading towards the roundabout that meets the ORR, I was turning right to head towards town. I'm on the inside lane, indicating right, watching my left wing mirror for the inevitable cut-off from a black jeep that's heading for the ORR, I'm just around the corner and WOW...there's a cop car stopped in my lane (hidden by the roundabout plants/shrubs/hill) after pulling over a Ford Fiesta ON the roundabout!

Is road safety REALLY the priority? Or is it a money-making scheme for a government that's off-budget?

I remember a year or two ago when 2 people were killed on the same spot on the Williamstown Rd in separate crash’s in the space of a month. I was driving in the Williamstown Rd, not a sign of a Garda. I turned left on to the Outer Ring Road (a dual carriageway, considered the safest type of roads) and there was a Garda doing speed checks.

Another time I was driving down from Dublin, all the way down the dangerous N9 and not a sign of a Garda. Came on to Sallypark (again a dual carriageway, considered the safest type of roads); Garda’s in a corner doing speed checks.

It is hard not to think it is money and not safety.

CantGetNoSleep

Ballybrickenman wrote: »

I remember a year or two ago when 2 people were killed on the same spot on the Williamstown Rd in separate crash’s in the space of a month. I was driving in the Williamstown Rd, not a sign of a Garda. I turned left on to the Outer Ring Road (a dual carriageway, considered the safest type of roads) and there was a Garda doing speed checks.

Another time I was driving down from Dublin, all the way down the dangerous N9 and not a sign of a Garda. Came on to Sallypark (again a dual carriageway, considered the safest type of roads); Garda’s in a corner doing speed checks.

It is hard not to think it is money and not safety.

I don't think it even takes any thought, its glaringly obvious imo

Tony_ire

I thought the reason the speed limit was so ridiculously low is because the cheaper tarmac that they used when building would rip up if large trucks went any faster.. anyone else hear this?

wellbutty

Yeah i did hear that. I emailed WLR just after the road opened saying that the surface looked too rough and too thin to be a finishing course of tarmac...especially on the roundabouts.

I reckon sections of the road will have to be resurfaced once all the building along the route is finished

Trick of the Tail

Ballybrickenman is correct, 'speed' does not cause accidents. What is meant by 'speed' anyway? 5kph is 'speed'.

Driving at a speed inappropriate to the conditions is dangerous, and that is a symptom of Bad Driving.

As has been said, many speed limits in this country are inappropriate to the road - whether it be the 100kph limit on the Dublin road where its 16 feet wide or the 60kph limit on the ORR where its a median-separated dual carriageway.

You do not suddenly become 'dangerous' when you exceed a speed limit that has been imposed incorrectly.

What IS dangerous, and what DOES cause accidents, is Bad Driving! Which MAY include inappropriate speed or it may not.

In fact, statistics actually prove that most road accidents DO NOT involve driving at a speed in excess of the speed limit.

The problem is, as this country's speed limits are set based on the class of the road and not on the condition of it, we have many incorrect limits. People know this, and will then break the limit when they feel it is safe to do so. That leads to a general disregard for the limits and can disimprove driving standards.

If all speed limits were audited and revised so that they actually reflected a safe maximum speed for each road, people would feel more comfortable driving within those limits and would be less likely to break them.

In my opinion, the one factor above all others that causes driving accidents is poor driving ability. For God's sake, we can drive around with no licence if we want! There are far too many people on the roads who simply do not posess the required level of skill to do so in today's busy road conditions.

THAT is what needs to be addressed.

A.

BBM77

alinton wrote: »

Ballybrickenman is correct, 'speed' does not cause accidents. What is meant by 'speed' anyway? 5kph is 'speed'.

Driving at a speed inappropriate to the conditions is dangerous, and that is a symptom of Bad Driving.

As has been said, many speed limits in this country are inappropriate to the road - whether it be the 100kph limit on the Dublin road where its 16 feet wide or the 60kph limit on the ORR where its a median-separated dual carriageway.

You do not suddenly become 'dangerous' when you exceed a speed limit that has been imposed incorrectly.

What IS dangerous, and what DOES cause accidents, is Bad Driving! Which MAY include inappropriate speed or it may not.

In fact, statistics actually prove that most road accidents DO NOT involve driving at a speed in excess of the speed limit.

The problem is, as this country's speed limits are set based on the class of the road and not on the condition of it, we have many incorrect limits. People know this, and will then break the limit when they feel it is safe to do so. That leads to a general disregard for the limits and can disimprove driving standards.

If all speed limits were audited and revised so that they actually reflected a safe maximum speed for each road, people would feel more comfortable driving within those limits and would be less likely to break them.

In my opinion, the one factor above all others that causes driving accidents is poor driving ability. For God's sake, we can drive around with no licence if we want! There are far too many people on the roads who simply do not posess the required level of skill to do so in today's busy road conditions.

THAT is what needs to be addressed.

A.

Absolutely Alinton.

For anybody who still doubts that speeding does not cause accidents, I ask you this. If speed causes accidents how come there is a lower proportion of accidents in the UK even though the average speed is much higher.

Cabaal

Speed is a massive factor in crashes, say what you want but somebody going 30km who hits a wall should be ok, somebody going 120km is unlikely to end up pretty dead or injured.

Nobody drives 100% safe so its much easier to limit speed then to expect every Jane and Joe to actually pay attention when driving, most people don't know how to change lanes, use roundabouts, what the yellow box's at junctions are for, also there's people going far far too fast in built up area's where the unexpected can very much happen.

Alot of these people also have full licenses...but they might have got them in the 1970's.

If your driving in a built up area at 80km and a kid jumps out in front of you can you honestly say you can stop in time if he's only a few metres ahead? would you do a better job if you were driving at 50km or less?

The only true way of insuring people drive safe is:
- ensure speeds are correct fopr roads in question
- ensure everyone is a capable driver, get them to resit the driving test every 9 years

Ri na hEireann

If your driving in a built up area at 80km and a kid jumps out in front of you can you honestly say you can stop in time if he's only a few metres ahead? would you do a better job if you were driving at 50km or less?

I don't think this is an issue if your talkin about a residential area because I doubt,from my experience, that many drivers drive 80kmph in a built up residential areas anyway.And in the case of housing estates its very rare even to see 50 I would have thought with most having speed ramps and children at play signs etc...

If we're to be rational about this nobody can deny that 80 is a perfectly reasonable speed for this road. Some posters have mentioned 100 (personally I think thats a bit much) so surely 80 would be reasonable?

I know someone who got done for doing 64 on this stretch of road which essentially validates this ethos

1) You're a cop instructed to set up a speed trap in order to earn money for the government coffers

BBM77

Cabaal wrote: »

...........Nobody drives 100% safe so its much easier to limit speed then to expect every Jane and Joe to actually pay attention when driving, most people don't know how to change lanes, use roundabouts, what the yellow box's at junctions are for, also there's people going far far too fast in built up area's where the unexpected can very much happen..........

There will always be the idiot, but the general standard of driving and awareness in Ireland is very low, this causes a lot of crash’s and has nothing to do with speeding. I don’t think it is too much to expect a higher general standard of driving.

Cabaal

Ri na hEireann wrote: »

I don't think this is an issue if your talkin about a residential area because I doubt,from my experience, that many drivers drive 80kmph in a built up residential areas anyway.And in the case of housing estates its very rare even to see 50 I would have thought with most having speed ramps and children at play signs etc...

If we're to be rational about this nobody can deny that 80 is a perfectly reasonable speed for this road. Some posters have mentioned 100 (personally I think thats a bit much) so surely 80 would be reasonable?

I know someone who got done for doing 64 on this stretch of road which essentially validates this ethos

Well don't get me wrong I actually think the outer ring road should be 80km, I do think 100km is abit too much for it...mainly because of amount of roundabouts.

While the outer roundabouts in Kilkenny have a 100km limit very few people actually go this because its not very suitable due to the amount of roundabouts (though you'd see it late at night more so)

scout353

I think the ORR speed limit is way off the mark. If that road was in UK or Continent the speed limit would be at least 100kph.

It is a two lane highway with concrete median - having 60kph is ridiculous though I understand that the reason for that is the legislation governing the speed limit was automatically 60kph because the road is inside the city limits - remember when the town limit of 30mph was just beyond the Kilbarry Sports Centre while the 40mph was about 100 yards further on the road and the town speed limit is now at Ballindud.

It is then left to Local Authorities to change the limit themselves if they see fit!

When you can turn off a two lane highway at any of the roundabouts onto smaller, more dangerous routes and enjoy an increase in speed limit is a bit "Irish" in every sense of the word!!!

By the way when the old town limit was by Kilbarry the cops used to hide in there too so I guess it is hard not to think about the money making aspect of the issue!!

And the one question that has always bugged me - where does the €80 fine go???????

deisemum

Earlier this week on The George Hook Show on Newstalk they were discussing the amount of money that road traffice fines generate. I was shocked to hear that €100,000 is generated per day.

Trick of the Tail

Cabaal wrote: »

somebody going 30km who hits a wall should be ok, somebody going 120km is likely to end up pretty dead or injured.

Well on that logic, let's have 15kph speed limits so we can all drive into walls safely anytime we want.

Re the ring road, I think there's a slight misunderstanding of the point of a speed limit on it. If it was a 100kph limit, that does not mean that you HAVE to do that speed! You drive within your ability based on prevailing road conditions.

You could have a 200kph limit, it doesn't mean everyone would be frantically accelerating to that speed after leaving a roundabout, then slamming on the brakes before the next!

The essence of good driving is driving within your ability and the prevailing road conditions. If everyone was skilled enough to practice that there would actually be no need for speed limits.

So in order to approach general, countrywide good driving and minimise accidents, the importance of good driving education should be appreciated and enhanced.

That would prevent problems, which is easier and more efficient than trying to fix them afterwards.

Andy.

Sully

alinton wrote: »

Ballybrickenman is correct, 'speed' does not cause accidents. What is meant by 'speed' anyway? 5kph is 'speed'.

Fair enough. Ill rephrase it to "excessive speed" which is driving at a speed considered to be to dangerous for the conditions of the road including length, amount of bends, weather condition and so on. Hence why we have speed limits on our roads - most (not all) are judged based on the road general condition and also location.

Driving at a speed inappropriate to the conditions is dangerous, and that is a symptom of Bad Driving.

Didnt you just say

'speed' does not cause accidents.

? Seems a contradiction. Speed will result in the accident which is a result of bad driving. It all ties in, and that's pretty much fact.

As has been said, many speed limits in this country are inappropriate to the road - whether it be the 100kph limit on the Dublin road where its 16 feet wide or the 60kph limit on the ORR where its a median-separated dual carriageway.

Agreed. There are some stupid limits on roads - either to fast or to slow. I do believe this is a small factor in Irish road accidents.

You do not suddenly become 'dangerous' when you exceed a speed limit that has been imposed incorrectly.

Well that depends. In some cases, 60km/hr on a road that is perfectly suitable for 80km/hr is breaking the official speed limit but not the proper limit. Fact is, this isn't a problem on our roads. People go way to far over the current and proper speed limit of a road. This is bad driving, and will result in an accident. Speed is a form of bad driving, which at the end of the day can still be said to be a cause of an accident.

What IS dangerous, and what DOES cause accidents, is Bad Driving! Which MAY include inappropriate speed or it may not.

See above.

In fact, statistics actually prove that most road accidents DO NOT involve driving at a speed in excess of the speed limit.

Can I see these stats please?

The problem is, as this country's speed limits are set based on the class of the road and not on the condition of it, we have many incorrect limits. People know this, and will then break the limit when they feel it is safe to do so. That leads to a general disregard for the limits and can disimprove driving standards.

Some people break it to what they and many others consider to be a safe limit for the other. Others go even further which is far to fast for the road.

If all speed limits were audited and revised so that they actually reflected a safe maximum speed for each road, people would feel more comfortable driving within those limits and would be less likely to break them.

Agreed.

In my opinion, the one factor above all others that causes driving accidents is poor driving ability. For God's sake, we can drive around with no licence if we want! There are far too many people on the roads who simply do not posess the required level of skill to do so in today's busy road conditions.

THAT is what needs to be addressed.

A.

Its part of the problem, but addressing that will not solve the problem completely.

Sully

alinton wrote: »

Well on that logic, let's have 15kph speed limits so we can all drive into walls safely anytime we want.

Sorry but its a stupid point. Its a fact - if you hit a wall at a lower speed your chance of survival is higher then if you crash into a wall at a much faster speed. What he said, was correct. Its fact and you cant dispute facts.

Re the ring road, I think there's a slight misunderstanding of the point of a speed limit on it. If it was a 100kph limit, that does not mean that you HAVE to do that speed! You drive within your ability based on prevailing road conditions.

100k/hr is far to fast for that road IMO. Driving even more above that would be stupid. Of course tho, driving slower is acceptable.

You could have a 200kph limit, it doesn't mean everyone would be frantically accelerating to that speed after leaving a roundabout, then slamming on the brakes before the next!

A lot of people will tho

The essence of good driving is driving within your ability and the prevailing road conditions. If everyone was skilled enough to practice that there would actually be no need for speed limits.

Clearly most of the world has got it all wrong despite years of study!

So in order to approach general, countrywide good driving and minimise accidents, the importance of good driving education should be appreciated and enhanced.

That would prevent problems, which is easier and more efficient than trying to fix them afterwards.

Andy.

Agreed.

Cabaal

Sully, thank feck somebody is seeing sense in this thread, have to agree with most of your responses.

CantGetNoSleep

I think it is some of the people who post in this thread that cause/have accidents

They think that accidents are caused by bad driving, but they're good drivers, so aren't going to have accidents and therefore can drive around as fast as they think is safe, ignoring speed limits they think are too low

Now I agree that it seems that 60kmh is too slow a limit for that road, especially given all the roads off it are 80kmh and ten times more dangerous I would imagine, but the fact is over 400 people are unneccesarily killed on our roads each year, and if we drove slower less people would be killed in accidents, I don't think I even need to state that it is so glaringly obvious. Would people still think the limit was too low if the limits on all those backroads were 50kmh.

The fact is accidents will happen. They are caused by a number of factors: driving too fast, poor roads which are almost everywhere in Ireland, poor driving conditions, drink driving, poor drivers, inexperienced drivers, drivers that think they can handle any situation, and general thick c*nts. Even someone who is a safe driver driving at a safe speed can have an accident due to another motorists driving. The slower we drive, the less destruction these accidents will cause

Trick of the Tail

Quote: The slower we drive, the less destruction these accidents will cause.

So let's all drive at 10kph then. Or shall we instead, try to improve driving skills, improve road conditions, ensure that speed limits pertain to the road condition and not its number, and hence actually try to have less accidents.

Bad driving causes accidents. Fact. Can't be argued. Its true, because today I broke the speed limit a little bit and I didn't have an accident, whereas the last time I drove badly I nearly did.

As you correctly said, accidents will happen and are caused by a number of factors, and 'driving too fast' is one of them as long as you mean driving at a speed inapporpriate to the road conditions and your ability, and not purely driving faster than a sign at the side of the road says.

A.

Sully

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

I think it is some of the people who post in this thread that cause/have accidents

They think that accidents are caused by bad driving, but they're good drivers, so aren't going to have accidents and therefore can drive around as fast as they think is safe, ignoring speed limits they think are too low

That is the impression I got from yourself and alinton posts which you agreed with.

Thankfully, I have no points on my license and have only ever been stopped once for driving to fast on the ORR along with several other drivers!

Sully

alinton wrote: »

Quote: The slower we drive, the less destruction these accidents will cause.

So let's all drive at 10kph then. Or shall we instead, try to improve driving skills, improve road conditions, ensure that speed limits pertain to the road condition and not its number, and hence actually try to have less accidents.

Childish response imo. The comment clearly means driving at a speed within reason - as in, not trying to fast for the conditions or exsisting speed limit. Not drive at an extremely slow pace.

Bad driving causes accidents. Fact. Can't be argued. Its true, because today I broke the speed limit a little bit and I didn't have an accident, whereas the last time I drove badly I nearly did.

Thats the point we have been making which you have finally agreed to

As you correctly said, accidents will happen and are caused by a number of factors, and 'driving too fast' is one of them as long as you mean driving at a speed inapporpriate to the road conditions and your ability, and not purely driving faster than a sign at the side of the road says.

A.

Something we have already pointed out which you disputed...

CantGetNoSleep

No, I'm not suggesting we drive at 10kmh anywhere

There are several posters in this thread who seem to give the opinion that we can drive perfectly safely on the ORR at 100 kmh

I was in a serious crash, on a dual carriageway, travelling at 100kmh (the speed limit for that road, it wasn't in Waterford, but was very similar to the ORR) about 6 weeks ago. Thankfully there were no very serious injuries, but if we had been driving at 60kmh, the crash may not have happened, but it certainly would have been a lot less dangerous. When passing motorists saw the two cars every one of them stopped and ran over expecting the worst.

People seem to forget the force of a car travelling at 100kmh, coupled with the increased stopping distances and difficulty to control at that speed. On the ORR the risks are clearly hitting the central median or bouncing off it and hitting another car, simply hitting a car in the other lane (very possible given that the road can be fairly busy at rush hour)or crashing into a ditch. At 100kmh any of these are more likely to happen than at 60kmh, and would cause far greater damage

Jor

Bad driving causes most accidents, but speeding is a big part of that.

There have been several mentions of overtaking on a bend being a case of bad driving, but the chances are that driver is exceeding the speed limit. If most of the traffic on that road is travelling at the speed limit, then this means that the driver has to be using excessive speed to require him to overtake in the first place.

Dum_Dum

All I know is I never drive fast enough for the person sitting on my rear bumper.

Trick of the Tail

CantGetNoSleep wrote: »

I was in a serious crash, on a dual carriageway, travelling at 100kmh (the speed limit for that road, it wasn't in Waterford, but was very similar to the ORR) about 6 weeks ago.

I'm very pleased you weren't injured. But please tell me, out of interest, the exact cause of the crash.

I'm always interested as to how accidents happen on roads like dual carriageways with separated medians, which you'd think are really safe.

A.

Sully

alinton wrote: »

I'm always interested as to how accidents happen on roads like dual carriageways with separated medians, which you'd think are really safe.

A.

A road is a road at the end of the day. Just because there is a median, doesnt mean you cant loose control of the car and crash.

Going by what your implying, you cant crash on such roads cause they have seperated medians!

Gadgie

Dum_Dum wrote: »

All I know is I never drive fast enough for the person sitting on my rear bumper.

Same here.