Uniformed Gardai could get pepper spray in coming months

eroo

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gardai-to-be-given-less-than-lethal-weapons-1339797.html

By JIM CUSACK
Sunday April 06 2008
Uniformed gardai could be using pepper spray devices within the next two months, and highly controversial "less than lethal" weapons such as the taser stun guns are already being deployed to specialist units being trained up for "barricade" incidents such as the Abbeylara siege.

The recommendations for these weapons, which are widely used by other police forces, were made in the report by Garda Inspector Kathleen O'Toole last year. Last week she issued an implementation update on her recommendations. In the update, Garda management confirmed that the recommendation on pepper sprays, which fire a liquid containing chilli pepper, will be implemented before the end of June.

Gardai have been complaining for years that the mixture of drink and drugs is causing greater violence and increasing difficulties in restraining violent prisoners, particularly those who have been mixing cocaine with alcohol.

The sprays are normally safe, causing skin and eye irritation which is easily treatable, but in the United States and Canada some 70 deaths of prisoners in custody were recorded in the 1990s.

Senior garda sources said that while the weapon is not completely safe, the amount and extent of violence on the streets has left the force with no choice.

Also, the decision some years ago to remove height restrictions for entry into the Garda has meant there are a considerable number of gardai who just don't have the physical capability to restrain many violent young men.

Young gardai in country districts are coming under particular pressure. Garda representatives last week said there have been some very serious incidents where young gardai have been attacked by drunken mobs in provincial towns where back-up from divisional stations can be anything up to 30 miles away.

The Garda Inspector reported on how gardai should tackle the so-called barricade incidents such as the Abbeylara incident in Longford in April 2000 which resulted in the mentally unstable young man, John Carthy, being shot dead when he emerged from his house pointing a shotgun at gardai.

Kathleen O'Toole recommended that the "less than lethal" tasers known as "conductive energy devices", or CEDs, be issued to specialist units. These have been tested and issued to the Garda's Emergency Response Unit. The weapons will also be issued to special Regional Response Units set up around the country trained to deal with barricade incidents within the next two months.

There is a highly controversial history of the use of CEDs, particularly in the United States where they are widely issued to police and even security guards. Last year there was a major controversy after security guards used a taser gun on a student at Florida State University when the young man heckled politician John Kerry.

Between June 2001 and June 2007, there were at least 245 cases of deaths of people who had been shocked by these taser weapons in the United States and Canada. Some of the incidents were captured on video footage and are on the Internet.

One particularly frightening incident depicts a young man being stunned by a patrolman in Utah while his hysterical and pregnant wife looks on. The young man was maintaining that he had not exceeded the speed limit when the policeman fired the weapon, causing him to fall violently on to the ground.

Another depicts a Polish man, upset at being detained by police, being killed with multiple stuns from one of the weapons at Vancouver Airport.

It appears the gardai are showing reluctance to consider another highly controversial "less than lethal" weapon known as a pepper spray projectile or "bean bag". This is usually fired by a shotgun and is supposed only to incapacitate. However, in October 2004, one of these projectiles killed a 21-year-old university student in Boston, Victoria Snelgrove, when one hit her in the eye and entered her brain.

Kathleen O'Toole was commissioner of the Boston Police at the time and personally apologised to the family. Despite her proposal that this weapon be deployed, garda management have said that it remains under consideration.

The history of supposedly "less than lethal" weapons here is coloured by the official opposition by Government to the use of plastic bullets by the British security forces in the North. Some 14 people, including women and children, were killed by these weapons.
- JIM CUSACK

Also a good read,are the Regional and Divisional policing plans 2008;http://garda.ie/policing_plans.html
the Garda Inspectorate reports 2008;http://garda.ie/othdocs.html
Good to see that ALL Community Gardai are to be trained as Ethnic Liaison Officers.Also,by mid way 2008,all Gardai allowed to carry firearms will receive Tactical Training!That and the fact the 2 new ranges in Templemore and Dublin will be open will greatly improve AGS's armed response capabilities!

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

pepper spray is great news, that oughta end a few fights at the weekends. The taser though.. seen alot of silly tasering in the states over the last year , hope ours don't get as trigger happy as some stateside.

Fyr.Fytr

I just read this article myself (god bless google alerts)

Good news as I read one UK officer post "My god the guards are almost into the 19th century" ha ha lol

CLADA

Mordeth wrote: »

The taser though.. seen alot of silly tasering in the states over the last year , hope ours don't get as trigger happy as some stateside.

Excellent point, the U.S police are deploying this device for anything and everything.

On the other hand there seems to be policy in Europe that covers use of Taser in dealing with people with knives, blunt weapons or physically violent.

On this side of the Atlantic we don't seem to get the youtube videos of speeding housewives getting zapped...although maybe thats a pity:D

Seriously though, ERU have had Taser since last summer and don't think its been used yet.

ScubaDave

Thanks be to god they are finally seeing sense!

opti76

finally another potentially life saving tool ..
once its the liquid and not the spray we'l be flying..
ive been hit twice with pepper spray the gougers had bought off the internet and i can vouch its effective

Satan Polaroid

Within 2 months? it would be great to get it but I have my doubts to be honest.

We're still waiting on digital radios.

FGR

Definately have my doubts about this, too.

Implementing the ASP training course was a nightmare for management in itself; nevermind the training required for members to be proficient in said spray.

If anything I'd say it will be trialled in a specific district in June. We'd be looking at 2009 before global issue.

As for Tetra; I'd say there's no hope. Looking at the Garda Review there's not enough motivation behind Government to implement such an expensive system.

Shame, really..

cushtac

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Implementing the ASP training course was a nightmare for management in itself; nevermind the training required for members to be proficient in said spray.

That would depend on what's involved in the training. What's the drill in other forces & how long does it take?

civdef

A couple of years ago in the UK at least, it was a day long segment of the defensive tactics course, with refreshers every two years.

Trojan911

And about time too. It will drop the assault rate on members as well.

Statically one in ten persons in the UK are immune to cs spray and all dogs are as well. It is very effective.

cushtac

Cusack has mixed up three different types of round towards the end of the article. The bean bag round is just that - a bean bag that is fired from a shotgun, the ERU has these & tried using them during an incident in Gort in 2006. There is also the ferret round, also fired from a shotgun, that releases CS or OC after penetrating a barricade (door, window etc.). I'm unsure if the ERU has these. The round that killed the student in Boston was not fired from a shotgun, it was fired from an FN303 which is essentialy a beefed-up paintball gun that uses compressed air to fire various fin-stabilised rounds. The ERU definitely does not have these.

Eru

It will be 2010 by the time we all have spray and I will put money on that. In fact, if it comes in before that I will post myself running down the road naked!

Simple because it will be a national roll out, might be trained to use it but getting it and being allowed carry it wont happen until we are all trained and issued.

Stun guns are my option and lets be honest, anything the police use has the potential to be fatal. The question is, how fatal compared to being shot?

As for the US, they have a strict hands off way of dealing with things. They dont get face to face or into fights like we do before we use weapons. It might seem less friendly but its for a reason, a lot of them have been caught off guard by a gun or weapon and been too close in to deploy their own weapons.

Centauro

cushtac wrote: »

That would depend on what's involved in the training. What's the drill in other forces & how long does it take?

The PSNI CS training took a day (for serving officers, not sure what recruits get) After that it's included in the six monthly personal safety programme refresher (one day every six months) I, like a big fool, allowed myself to be cajolled into the CS exposure hut. If you have a choice, don't do it! On the street the CS is great, especially when used against a bunch of hoods. Just do a big Z for Zorro in their direction, and watch em weep:) Ya can't do that with a stun gun! Not sure if you can with OC?

eroo

cushtac wrote: »

Cusack has mixed up three different types of round towards the end of the article. The bean bag round is just that - a bean bag that is fired from a shotgun, the ERU has these & tried using them during an incident in Gort in 2006. There is also the ferret round, also fired from a shotgun, that releases CS or OC after penetrating a barricade (door, window etc.). I'm unsure if the ERU has these.

Ya the ERU have ferrets,afaik.It's funny..GMP,Met's armed intervention units + AFO's have been using them for 10+ years,yet they are still frowned upon over here by media!:rolleyes:

TheNog

Karlitosway1978 wrote: »

It will be 2010 by the time we all have spray and I will put money on that. In fact, if it comes in before that I will post myself running down the road naked!

You are probably right but I will wait and see. If pepper spray is issued by the end of this year it will be refreshing to see some quick movement on tackling our problems.

TheNog

ForegoneReality wrote: »

Implementing the ASP training course was a nightmare for management in itself; nevermind the training required for members to be proficient in said spray.

It may have been a nightmare but tbh the training staff are gonna have to overcome it. There will be plenty of training courses in the future to be rolled out and it will need to be done as quickly as possible.

ForegoneReality wrote: »

As for Tetra; I'd say there's no hope. Looking at the Garda Review there's not enough motivation behind Government to implement such an expensive system.

Shame, really..

I cannot see the problem with Tetra. Tetra Ireland are going to build the bloody thing at their expense. It won't cost the Government amything until we start using it.

Pataman

I have seen a lot of planning applications, in the Irish Indo, from all around the country for the tetra system, so it seems to be coming, slowly.

Faheywitane

This is interesting,

http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=690217

the locust

The batons are definitely a higher level of force. I think i remember someone saying that the Old Commissioner was terrified of Gardai being given asps, but it had to be done.

We definitely need a interim measure, that is -- to go between where you are talking to someone and all of a sudden you have nothing but the ASP. Which is crazy cause the ASP will break bone. OC is ideal.

OC & PAVA are a lot safer than CS also! CS is a very chemical spray and i even think its inflammable? CS is engineered for military
OC is pure ground up chilli pepper and is more apt for police work as the effects wear off sooner.

metman

the locust wrote: »

OC & PAVA are a lot safer than CS also! CS is a very chemical spray and i even think its inflammable? CS is engineered for military. OC is pure ground up chilli pepper and is more apt for police work as the effects wear off sooner.

Having trained on Pava (OC/Pepper, whatever you want to call it) as well as CS I prefer CS.

As I've mentioned before, yep CS is nasty stuff that cross-contaminates, is flammable, doesn't work on animals and has less of a sucess rate than pava. However (and this is all that matters to me) when I use my CS in a spontaneous ruck, regardless of where I hit the suspect it will do the job if he is susceptible to CS (a small percentage of people are immune to it). With Pava you have to be very accurate in your spray. If you don't get it into your suspect's eyes then it won't have any effect.

Having been in a few 'spontaneous' incidents I know which I'd rather have on my rig.

CS and Pava exposure both last about the same, sometimes more with Pava in my experience. Both are very uncomfortable and you will think you are going to suffocate with a good face full of the stuff. Times I've been involved where gas (CS) has been deployed its worked brilliantly.