Irish Poker, where do we stand?

dagunman

Please ignore spelling grammar etc.
Over the last week I was in San Remo, and had many interesting convo's with ppl regarding Irish poker. I have various feeling, taughts and obsrvations and I wonder what others think. On the way over on the flight I was sitting beside one of Irelands leaing pro's and has been in the scence for a long while. He commenteed that there were only 10 winning online players in Ireland at levels above 5/10 at the start I was like no way but infact he was spot on. Lookin around San Remo there were so many young players around but there were ony 2 of us from Ireland. I was questioning why so few when there was prob a min of 20 from most other countries. What makes it even more surprising is that Irish poker player are rated among the best in Europe.
I think young Irish players have been ****ed over by the Irish based poker sites. Paddy Power and Boyle Sports offer no sponsorship deals to Irish players.(I know boyles just signed marty symth). GPJ are at least trying to change this but they are small, but growing company. When I looked aroundin San Remo all other countries had sites based in there country putting players in. France have winamax, Sweden have betson....... and Greece had a rake of players there all sponsored. These players were good but certainly no better than our standard of player.
Ok Paddy Power stump up big for the IO but considering if they put the $300k overlay into sponsoring 6 young players they would do more for Irish poker and themselves imo.
Next week the Poker Cup of Nations is on. Repersenting Ireland will be the Don, Parky, Liam Flood, Marty and Ciaran O Leary. Not even one player under the age of 25.
My final point why I think we struggle is the lack of good teachers out there. The only coach ppl seem to talk about is Hector Jelly. He is supposed to be very good but I dont think it is any use to ppl who progress past 2/4. I was very Interest to here all the top dutch online pro's are movin to Ireland because of new laws in Holland. Be interest to hear if Abel Meijberg will be doing any coaching while here. We have good plo players and I know Hali coached a few ppl and some of us learned a lot off od but when it come to tournies we really have no 1.
Back to San Remo the final table had young players from Italy America Sweden France so its not as if other countries arent succeding where we are quite clearly failing.
Writing this I feel as if this comes across as a disjointed rant. However I am going to throw it out there, do other feels that we have been some what let down, or are we really that bed.

LuckyLloyd

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Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Most of us that are regular "thinking" players on the Dublin circuit would get crushed at mid stakes + online / are probably marginally plus EV in bigger long structure live tournaments. Who'd want to sponsor us?

Obviously there are a few exceptions. But since you happen to be mates or friendly with a lot of the better hold'em players <25 that are around John your view may be slightly warped.

Myself and players like me can take a decent chunk out of live poker in this country but are fundamentally losing propositions online at any sort of decent level. I think that says a lot about where we are in terms of standard unfortunately.

I don't see how you are qualified to make this assumption?

LuckyLloyd

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califano

Poker sponsorship is overrated in players minds imo. Great for the player not so great for the network imo. For such a little seen game in the mainstream media it really isnt worth a pokersites time to have someone represent them because they dont get as much out of it as the sponsored player does. I think unless you win or final table a wsop its not worth a networks time sponsoring a player.

For example i certainly dont think what cheap so and so's paddy power poker are by not sponsoring a player. If they sponsor someone its only really known within the poker community anyway and thats not good enough for paddy power.

I think we are neither let down by Irish poker skins or are bad as players. They just dont feel the need to hire an extra chef.

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How many people who play live cash / tournaments regularly in Dublin and win are decent winners online at 2 / 4+?

Well how may have tried over a long enough sample to know whether they are or not?

Also, players who are winning a lot online at 2/4 plus have no real need to play live and most really dont enjoy it.

I'm pretty sure a few players who play live a lot could beat these levels on line if they so tried. Yourself included.

LuckyLloyd

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StephenInsane

So what you're saying is that there aren't very many Irish players at all beating 5/10, yet we're just as good as more or less every European Nation, if not better? We're just being screwed by the Irish skins?

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Well we'll have to disagree I'm afraid. The level of the live cash games is worse than 25nl on stars. The vast majority of regular posters on this site don't play 2/4+ regularly. Maybe there are hundreds of excellent players who beat midstakes and up and have never appeared at a €1k+ event in this country and never posted here. I'd guess there are only a dozen or so though - and that as a whole this country is crap at poker.

Im not disagreeing. Im not agreeing. I, like yourself, am not qualified to make those assumtions. I don't have enough info either way to make a decision or hold an opinion.

I do think though that if certain players had both the time and moiney to play online at a highish level they would win.

Think of all the decent regs, Conbro, Dermo the Germo, Marc, Ross, etc I cant see any reason other than monies to stop any of these beating online poker? Can you?

Ollieboy

firstly, your intentions are good, but you are so far of the mark that you can't even see it.

PPP owe nothing to Irish Poker, most of there business is the UK and to have a event like the Irish Open in this country is massive. Its rated as one of the biggest events to win outside WSOP, EPT and WPT. I reckon PPP spend closed to 1 million on the IO each year and thats a massive boast to the local poker community.

As for the performance of Irish players, well most of them have thereselves to blame.

In 2006 I was in Vegas for the WSOP Main Event. I watch nearly all the young Irish players been hook on video games, crap tables and the enjoyment that vegas as to offer. I dont think any of them took it serious, like eating fruit, staying of the beer, getting plenty of sleep. Most of them treat it like a holiday and thats fair enough, but you have a chance to change your life and your more interest in winning at video games. I'm not taking a swing at any of the lads, there all great players and know how to enjoy themselves, but poker is a business and you have to treat it like that. Rob Taylor is one of the few newer players to realise this and he works at his game in the correct manner and keeps his head down. He wants the fame and money and that will trive him on to success.

Now the performance of Irish players in relation to the international arena. Well our performances have been very good. Many Irish players have done well in the last few years. But remember the size of our country, 4 million. Were one off the smallest poker communities in the world and we achieve way above our level. You see 20 greeks, don't the greeks have 60 million odd population?

So there is only 10 players in Ireland beaten 5/10, I would reckon thats correct. But the community here is so small it makes it hard for these players to access the bigger lives games, hence they dont win big tourneys, but there very successiful players.

As I said, your intentions are right, but PPP or Boyles sponsor a Irish player is not a option, as the market place here is so small. Look at Germany recently, 3 new sign pro's by full-tilt, is this to increase the game or standard of game in Germany? No its about winning the market place in a massive growing and young market. Ireland doesn't have this.

Anyway, end of my rant.

I would love to see some new players coming through in Ireland, but outside about 20 players I know, few I feel have the game at the top level. I dont want to mention people, but a big score and running well in one tourney doesn't make you a successiful player, it takes years of work and continue success. But if you have the bankroll you can gain the learning curve, but very few Irish players have the funds.

intereting to hear other peoples fews.

Iago

Ollieboy wrote: »

firstly, your intentions are good, but you are so far of the mark that you can't even see it.

PPP owe nothing to Irish Poker, most of there business is the UK and to have a event like the Irish Open in this country is massive. Its rated as one of the biggest events to win outside WSOP, EPT and WPT. I reckon PPP spend closed to 1 million on the IO each year and thats a massive boast to the local poker community.

As for the performance of Irish players, well most of them have thereselves to blame.

In 2006 I was in Vegas for the WSOP Main Event. I watch nearly all the young Irish players been hook on video games, crap tables and the enjoyment that vegas as to offer. I dont think any of them took it serious, like eating fruit, staying of the beer, getting plenty of sleep. Most of them treat it like a holiday and thats fair enough, but you have a chance to change your life and your more interest in winning at video games. I'm not taking a swing at any of the lads, there all great players and know how to enjoy themselves, but poker is a business and you have to treat it like that. Rob Taylor is one of the few newer players to realise this and he works at his game in the correct manner and keeps his head down. He wants the fame and money and that will trive him on to success.

Now the performance of Irish players in relation to the international arena. Well our performances have been very good. Many Irish players have done well in the last few years. But remember the size of our country, 4 million. Were one off the smallest poker communities in the world and we achieve way above our level. You see 20 greeks, don't the greeks have 60 million odd population?

So there is only 10 players in Ireland beaten 5/10, I would reckon thats correct. But the community here is so small it makes it hard for these players to access the bigger lives games, hence they dont win big tourneys, but there very successiful players.

As I said, your intentions are right, but PPP or Boyles sponsor a Irish player is not a option, as the market place here is so small. Look at Germany recently, 3 new sign pro's by full-tilt, is this to increase the game or standard of game in Germany? No its about winning the market place in a massive growing and young market. Ireland doesn't have this.

Anyway, end of my rant.

I would love to see some new players coming through in Ireland, but outside about 20 players I know, few I feel have the game at the top level. I dont want to mention people, but a big score and running well in one tourney doesn't make you a successiful player, it takes years of work and continue success. But if you have the bankroll you can gain the learning curve, but very few Irish players have the funds.

intereting to hear other peoples fews.

Excellent post, and I've commented on some of it before, specifically around the whole vegas WSOP piece. Every year our best and brighest get together over a couple of threads and plan what they're going to do in Vegas and every year you hear tales of all-night parties, various crazy betting and lots of pics and jokes about semi-naked women! All of which sounds like a fantastic holiday, but very few of the players who go over are prepared to work while there.

It's like a work night out, or foreign trip, even when you're not sitting at the table you should still be working. Sure it means being a boring fcuker while everyone else is partying but you'll never get success if you treat the opportunity as a lads away day! There's plenty of talent in this country, but there's very little discipline. One without the other isn't worth a jot.

LuckyLloyd

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spectre

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think that in most cases not working up the money to sit in a certain game equals not being good enough to beat that game. Being busto all the time means you ain't much use irrespective of how well you play during a spin up. The younger big online winners from other countries won money; applied br management and improved; got to where they are now after much effort and maintain it through constant improvement. If I can't get a decent roll together online and move up through the levels it simply means that I'm bad at the pokerz. Comments like the above tilt me so much.

QFT

You need to be an exceptional player to beat 5/10NL. I'd guess that 10 Irish players beating it is probably a fair assessment

Ollieboy

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think that in most cases not working up the money to sit in a certain game equals not being good enough to beat that game. Being busto all the time means you ain't much use irrespective of how well you play during a spin up. The younger big online winners from other countries won money; applied br management and improved; got to where they are now after much effort and maintain it through constant improvement. If I can't get a decent roll together online and move up through the levels it simply means that I'm bad at the pokerz. Comments like the above tilt me so much.

Lloyd your wrong, a lot of these young players have spin up and living the dream, they wont last and will burn.... I think in 10 years there will be a lot of sad stories about young gift players you lived on the edge.

I know a lot of big players in the pro game and nobody know's where they got the money and it wasn't from poker. A good example of this is Smurfit, he didnt move up the levels, he start at the top and invested. Dont get me wrong, if your stupid you'll go bust at the top level, but a lot of smart people with degrees etc, make money from poker by starting at the top and making it big quickly. I've even been told recently that Doyle didnt even get his money from poker, it was other business interests. Also, the gap between top players and the average player is very small and shouldnt be overrated, I think you have it way overrated. But in cash games, there is a big difference and the edge will always work over the long term

remember, I'm discussing tourney player verse cash play here.

Theresalwaysone

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think that in most cases not working up the money to sit in a certain game equals not being good enough to beat that game. Being busto all the time means you ain't much use irrespective of how well you play during a spin up. The younger big online winners from other countries won money; applied br management and improved; got to where they are now after much effort and maintain it through constant improvement. If I can't get a decent roll together online and move up through the levels it simply means that I'm bad at the pokerz. Comments like the above tilt me so much.

There are so many variables other than talent and ability that affect the ability to gain funds to dedicate to poker. These are obvious. Having a suitable bankroll and being talented are definately not correlated.

Look at Jamie Gold to see some one with **** all talent and ability? Or someone like Kirk Morrison who was busto for ages but is regarded as a very talented player. My examples may be weak but my point is, having the funds and time to dedicare to online player are not a suitable gauge of ability and talent

phantom_lord

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Im not disagreeing. Im not agreeing. I, like yourself, am not qualified to make those assumtions. I don't have enough info either way to make a decision or hold an opinion.

I do think though that if certain players had both the time and moiney to play online at a highish level they would win.

Think of all the decent regs, Conbro, Dermo the Germo, Marc, Ross, etc I cant see any reason other than monies to stop any of these beating online poker? Can you?

it takes less funds and time to play 200nl online then it does it play live.

Theresalwaysone wrote: »

Having a suitable bankroll and being talented are definately not correlated.

and i really disagree with this

Theresalwaysone

phantom_lord wrote: »

it takes less funds and time to play 200nl online then it does it play live.



and i really disagree with this

Yeah, I thought you would. and Cooker too no doubt (not a dig at either of you btw)

Will come back to this later. Grinding as we speak.

dagunman

Well including the North were about 6 mil which is similar enough to Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc. You cant say that its not profitable to sponsor ppl. Look at FTP and Stars they are the market leaders regarding online poker and they have the most amount of sponsored pros's. You cant say the Market isnt big enough in Ireland. Why would Paddy spend well over €1 mil on io if theres no market. Other companies like laddies,party,ftp all holding big tournies here. There is a massive market. Theres also no doubt that ppp and boyles have sufferd for treating Irish players badly.

Sponsorships are not over rated, there the only way any one can travel the circuit.

RoundTower

I agree there aren't many Irish players beating 5-10+ online. Not because Paddy Power don't sponsor some tourney donks to spew off a few buyins a day, though that would help. Not because there aren't regular big games for Irish players to hone their skills on. Not because of a lack of coaching either, coaching wasn't popular anywhere before 2 years ago. Just because Irish players in general aren't all that good. Here on boards we love to self-congratulate and tell everyone how great they are especially any time they get a decent touch, it disguises how badly most people really play.

I remember after I cashed in the WSOP people on boards were falling over my every word of strategy advice, I like to think I was already giving some pretty decent advice before that happened but suddenly there were tards everywhere hailing me as the white Phil Ivey. I was pissing myself laughing over it all and I think I really started to understand how the poker community, the poker media, etc really works.

Sometimes I really like to hear the self-delusion that goes on, to hear other people's egos being built up. To hear that the live regs who get by at €1/2 in the jackpot would be hacking up at $2/4 and higher online if only they put their mind to it. Because I know that this kind of ego is where the money comes from in poker.

But other times it makes me a little sad.

valor

But You Are De White Phil Ivey Imo!!!11111

gay it wont let me write that in caps, wtf

corkie123

to be honest i dont think pppoker lost to much on the irish open from the rake they took there on the cash games and the reg from players they took on touries.
now the tv coverage they had from it was cheap advertising for them
and they make a lot more than us from it .and for ollie to say they owe us nothing is bull .they have shops all over ireland which we use for betting and lodging money in to there site.

they make millons from us each year from rake on there site every year and give very little back to the players .

at the world series the paddy power rep was never to be seen there and they did very little for there players there as for ladbrokes they had a special room for there players . betfair look after there players very well as well .

as for sponsorship of players well its not a winning option for sites most of the time and they only do it with the really big names for hopefully tv exposure and market gain for there site but i think they could look after there players better when they win a ticket to the big events abroad when they do .

but i do agree with ollie most players here do not have the bank roll to fund themselfs to big touries all year round and only the very rich can do this as for the poker cup of nations well the team is mostly players who do tv and were in the lime lite years ago but good players really in there own space. what i like to know is who picked them and whos playing there costs and why it could not be some tourie ranking system for some places at least like gjp has but i know u need known faces as well .

but really i dont think we can do anything unless some irish online site do some thing to help players which i dont think they will as profit is what there in the business for not giving it back .

nicnicnic

rounders123 wrote: »

Poker sponsorship is overrated in players minds imo. Great for the player not so great for the network imo. For such a little seen game in the mainstream media it really isnt worth a pokersites time to have someone represent them because they dont get as much out of it as the sponsored player does. I think unless you win or final table a wsop its not worth a networks time sponsoring a player.

For example i certainly dont think what cheap so and so's paddy power poker are by not sponsoring a player. If they sponsor someone its only really known within the poker community anyway and thats not good enough for paddy power.

I think we are neither let down by Irish poker skins or are bad as players. They just dont feel the need to hire an extra chef.

I think smaller sites would benefit re brand awareness if they sponsor the right players, its marketing


I always thought of Roundtower as the black phil hellmut

ionapaul

dagunman wrote: »

Well including the North were about 6 mil which is similar enough to Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc. You cant say that its not profitable to sponsor ppl. Look at FTP and Stars they are the market leaders regarding online poker and they have the most amount of sponsored pros's. You cant say the Market isnt big enough in Ireland. Why would Paddy spend well over €1 mil on io if theres no market. Other companies like laddies,party,ftp all holding big tournies here. There is a massive market. Theres also no doubt that ppp and boyles have sufferd for treating Irish players badly.

Sponsorships are not over rated, there the only way any one can travel the circuit.

I'm not sure if it's fair to compare us to those countries and conclude that the reason there are a higher % of their young players playing in the big tournaments than ours because they are much better players, better at BRM, more disciplined, etc. It could be that they are happier spending a bigger slice of their disposable income on poker tournaments than Irish players do (just like we prefer to spend more money on alcohol and a year out in Australia than they may do) or a combination of other external (to poker) reasons.

Goodluck2me

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I think that in most cases not working up the money to sit in a certain game equals not being good enough to beat that game. Being busto all the time means you ain't much use irrespective of how well you play during a spin up. The younger big online winners from other countries won money; applied br management and improved; got to where they are now after much effort and maintain it through constant improvement.

I disagree with this to a certain extent, I think its unfair to say that if you cant work your way up from .10/.25 to 5/10 you simply arent good enough, this simply isnt true. Its a matter of applying certain skill sets to new situations, like if someone who never played poker before was taught how to play 5/10 from the very beginning and was given very specific advice about how people 3 and 4-bet liberally, and how sqeezes etc are a big part of the game, they would struggle in a .10/.25 game where there is very little 4-betting light.
The point im trying to make is that if you have won the lotto for example, you have the opportunity to jump into bigger games, be a loser in them for a while, and maybe if you are good enough, learn how to adapt to the game and learn whilst playing it. this is opposed to streaming through the level constantly adaptign your game to each new level. I think you dont have to go through every level to be exceptional, but I doubt many bad players do it all the same.

Ollieboy wrote: »

I know a lot of big players in the pro game and nobody know's where they got the money and it wasn't from poker. A good example of this is Smurfit, he didnt move up the levels, he start at the top and invested. Dont get me wrong, if your stupid you'll go bust at the top level, but a lot of smart people with degrees etc, make money from poker by starting at the top and making it big quickly.

Alan Smurfit is not a good example of how someone came into the top and began to beat it, he is a poorer player than many guys ive played against in 50FO`s in Dublin, without exaggeration. A few tourney touches don`t make him a great, even good player.

The second part i agree with though about how its possible to beat the game from the middle, I just wouldnt say Smurfit was a good example. Teddy Sherrigham actually plays ok, obviously on the tight side, but doesnt make any huge mistake, and Im certain he didnt start at .25/.50.

Ollieboy wrote:

Also, the gap between top players and the average player is very small and shouldnt be overrated, I think you have it way overrated. But in cash games, there is a big difference and the edge will always work over the long term

remember, I'm discussing tourney player verse cash play here.

I`m not quite sure I agree with this, is that because the skill element in tournaments are essentially reduced?

rounders123 wrote: »

If they sponsor someone its only really known within the poker community anyway and thats not good enough for paddy power.

Who else would they want to attract? This is their target audience!

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

How many people who play live cash / tournaments regularly in Dublin and win are decent winners online at 2 / 4+?

I know of several cash-only players around dublin playing 400NL and higher, that you wouldnt have heard of, they are 18,19 etc and wouldnt have the smallest intention of playing a piddly game in town. Its a good sign that they arent playing the tournaments.
Most people who play Live, from my point of view, play as that is either
- their most successful way of playing
- Enjoy it more than online
- Dont have the option to play online (like myself)

I`d be more than confident in my aptitude and ability to pick up new skill sets to beating 400NL, I realise I most likely wouldnt beat it now, but with some hard work Ive no doubt I could.

dagunman wrote: »

Please ignore spelling grammar etc..

Thought it was a pretty good post Johnson.

Ollieboy

dagunman wrote: »

Well including the North were about 6 mil which is similar enough to Denmark, Sweden, Finland etc. You cant say that its not profitable to sponsor ppl. Look at FTP and Stars they are the market leaders regarding online poker and they have the most amount of sponsored pros's. You cant say the Market isnt big enough in Ireland. Why would Paddy spend well over €1 mil on io if theres no market. Other companies like laddies,party,ftp all holding big tournies here. There is a massive market. Theres also no doubt that ppp and boyles have sufferd for treating Irish players badly.

Sponsorships are not over rated, there the only way any one can travel the circuit.

Full-tilt and stars sponsor names players for the American market, thats 360 players and poker is nearly a national passtime there.


Again, the money PPP spend on the IO is a for the International market, not the Irish market, were just lucky they hold it here. Why you feel that PPP owe the poker community anything is beyond me. If you take the sample of horse racing, does this mean they should go out and buy a stable of horse and riders. They do back a certain amount of races, again this would be similiar to holding the IO.
Swedan as 9 million and poker is massive there, I would reckon 4 times the number of players than us, there national lottery company run a national poker site its so big and players pay tax on earnings. If poker winnings were that big here, the Irish governement would be looking to tax it. Also the countries you mention have better broadband and again this makes a difference, plus I dont think they would have the same social life that Irish people would have.


If you can't afford to travel the circuit, nobody is going to back you to travel the circuit. If your a winning player, they'll back you, but no Irish player besides Andy and Marty in recent times have achieve that and both are now back.

Also, look at the 1k events in Ireland, about 120 runners on average, that tells you how big the Irish market is.

Ollieboy

corkie123 wrote: »

to be honest i dont think pppoker lost to much on the irish open from the rake they took there on the cash games and the reg from players they took on touries.
now the tv coverage they had from it was cheap advertising for them
and they make a lot more than us from it .and for ollie to say they owe us nothing is bull .they have shops all over ireland which we use for betting and lodging money in to there site.

they make millons from us each year from rake on there site every year and give very little back to the players .

at the world series the paddy power rep was never to be seen there and they did very little for there players there as for ladbrokes they had a special room for there players . betfair look after there players very well as well .

as for sponsorship of players well its not a winning option for sites most of the time and they only do it with the really big names for hopefully tv exposure and market gain for there site but i think they could look after there players better when they win a ticket to the big events abroad when they do .

but i do agree with ollie most players here do not have the bank roll to fund themselfs to big touries all year round and only the very rich can do this as for the poker cup of nations well the team is mostly players who do tv and were in the lime lite years ago but good players really in there own space. what i like to know is who picked them and whos playing there costs and why it could not be some tourie ranking system for some places at least like gjp has but i know u need known faces as well .

but really i dont think we can do anything unless some irish online site do some thing to help players which i dont think they will as profit is what there in the business for not giving it back .

again, PPP dont make any money from the rake, that goes to the casino which is not PPP from what I understand. The running cost at the irish open is massive and I doubt there is a profit with the rake from cash games. But I did feel the 300 rake on the main event was high, in relation to the food that was on offer for the players, the typical chicken sauce dish with rice etc.

There shops are aim at a different market so I dont know what that as to do with Poker. They make money from players on rake for providing a service, if you dont like the charge go else where and pay less or get a better service, but PPP are a business.

I would love to see PPP sponsor a player, but I would rather see them hold good buy-in events like the Irish Open and the Winter festival this year than give my rake or there profit to a wantbee

This is turning into a typical PPP bashing which is very unfair to PPP.

sickpuppy

Maybe young irish players dont all have the same obsession and drive of other countrys.
The winters in norway sweden are long and bitter in north of those countrys weeks of darkness what better to do than play poker,of course our own winters here are long too but not as bad.
A few days before the irish open i was playing omaha in the fitz witha young danish guy early 20s he was.
He and his buddy were doing all the big event epts etc.
The kid said he sometimes does not leave the house for aweek at a time he orders takeaways everyday his fingers looked like puddings he was that fat.
He slagged me about having long arms i told the fat fecker hed be dead before hes 35 witha stroke or heartattack and diabetes thrown in he must have had 6 cokes in 2 hours all i drink is coke he said.
Is this what is needed to be asuccess?
To be able to beat 5 10 and up you need huge dedication skill and a willingness to move up levels not just be happy making a few k a week 8 tabling 1 2 or 2 4 id also agree there is large scale delusions of grandeur among poker players.
A lot of the :pac:good:pac: live regs in 1 2 etc dont play or dont like on line so playing and beating drunks and the chief etc at 1 2 is hardly gonna propel them to the next level they can make a living at it but wont ever be rich from it the odd shot at an ept or wsop event is there only chance of glory

Goodluck2me

Ollieboy wrote: »

If you can't afford to travel the circuit, nobody is going to back you to travel the circuit. If your a winning player, they'll back you, but no Irish player besides Andy and Marty in recent times have achieve that and both are now back.

Also, look at the 1k events in Ireland, about 120 runners on average, that tells you how big the Irish market is.

Thats like getting free clothes in shops because your a celebrity, and able to afford it.
If you have already won a few tournaments and got some big scores then you dont need the sponsors, whereas if you are young and good enough, noone will touch you until you ave proven yourself, by which time you wont need it.

Theresalwaysone

goodluck2me wrote: »

I disagree with this to a certain extent, I think its unfair to say that if you cant work your way up from .10/.25 to 5/10 you simply arent good enough, this simply isnt true. Its a matter of applying certain skill sets to new situations, like if someone who never played poker before was taught how to play 5/10 from the very beginning and was given very specific advice about how people 3 and 4-bet liberally, and how sqeezes etc are a big part of the game, they would struggle in a .10/.25 game where there is very little 4-betting light.
The point im trying to make is that if you have won the lotto for example, you have the opportunity to jump into bigger games, be a loser in them for a while, and maybe if you are good enough, learn how to adapt to the game and learn whilst playing it. this is opposed to streaming through the level constantly adaptign your game to each new level. I think you dont have to go through every level to be exceptional, but I doubt many bad players do it all the same.


Alan Smurfit is not a good example of how someone came into the top and began to beat it, he is a poorer player than many guys ive played against in 50FO`s in Dublin, without exaggeration. A few tourney touches don`t make him a great, even good player.

The second part i agree with though about how its possible to beat the game from the middle, I just wouldnt say Smurfit was a good example. Teddy Sherrigham actually plays ok, obviously on the tight side, but doesnt make any huge mistake, and Im certain he didnt start at .25/.50.


I`m not quite sure I agree with this, is that because the skill element in tournaments are essentially reduced?


Who else would they want to attract? This is their target audience!


I know of several cash-only players around dublin playing 400NL and higher, that you wouldnt have heard of, they are 18,19 etc and wouldnt have the smallest intention of playing a piddly game in town. Its a good sign that they arent playing the tournaments.
Most people who play Live, from my point of view, play as that is either
- their most successful way of playing
- Enjoy it more than online
- Dont have the option to play online (like myself)

I`d be more than confident in my aptitude and ability to pick up new skill sets to beating 400NL, I realise I most likely wouldnt beat it now, but with some hard work Ive no doubt I could.



Thought it was a pretty good post Johnson.

.

Although, Im pretty surprised that Joe can be this concise..... wtf is that about?

dagunman

I think Llyod is right. You can say Smurfit didnt start grinding .25/.50 but this post is about young Irish players. Of the 6 or so players I know playing 5/10 or above, all without exception started playing .25/.50 and ground there way up. I believe building a bank role is like building a house. If you put in the correct fondations it will stand up when tested. People who spin up a role are the same ppl who spin it down.
I find it ironic in away that I am posting on baords about this as I have long been of the opinion that boards is one of the elements which is holding back the development of a lot of players. Ppl come on here and say x is great and y is great, when in reality there prob v average players and barely breaking even.
In any case I started this thread to find out why we are'nt producing top players at the rate others are. My sponsorship thing was just to get the ball rolling but there are more reasons.
I have been lucky I have always had ppl around me to teach me and improve my game. Poker is a game where you feed off the ppl arond you. The more top players around the better we will all get.
This form seems spilt between ppl who are happy to except were just bad and thats it , and others who think were gods gift to poker.
There is a reason why we havnt had ppl in the mix for ept's this year and its not for our lack of our poker playing population.
After all there were 18 Irish ppl in EPT Dublin the only young person was chub.

Goodluck2me

dagunman wrote: »

There is a reason why we havnt had ppl in the mix for ept's this year and its not for our lack of our poker playing population.
After all there were 18 Irish ppl in EPT Dublin the only young person was chub.

Im pretty sure that 90% of the Irish poker players would play 2 Irish opens over an EPT, there was little -> no Value in that tournament to be fair.

Ollieboy

goodluck2me wrote: »

Thats like getting free clothes in shops because your a celebrity, and able to afford it.
If you have already won a few tournaments and got some big scores then you dont need the sponsors, whereas if you are young and good enough, noone will touch you until you ave proven yourself, by which time you wont need it.

TJ coultier, most successiful tourney player ever, never uses his own money to buy-in to tourneys, he as backers. This is the way a lot of top pro's spread the risks, by selling 50%. Very comman practice in the states

Goodluck2me

Ollieboy wrote: »

TJ coultier, most successiful tourney player ever, never uses his own money to buy-in to tourneys, he as backers. This is the way a lot of top pro's spread the risks, by selling 50%. Very comman practice in the states

Im saying that its funny how those in most need of it, dont get it, and those who dont, do.

phantom_lord

goodluck2me wrote: »

I disagree with this to a certain extent, I think its unfair to say that if you cant work your way up from .10/.25 to 5/10 you simply arent good enough, this simply isnt true. Its a matter of applying certain skill sets to new situations, like if someone who never played poker before was taught how to play 5/10 from the very beginning and was given very specific advice about how people 3 and 4-bet liberally, and how sqeezes etc are a big part of the game, they would struggle in a .10/.25 game where there is very little 4-betting light.
The point im trying to make is that if you have won the lotto for example, you have the opportunity to jump into bigger games, be a loser in them for a while, and maybe if you are good enough, learn how to adapt to the game and learn whilst playing it. this is opposed to streaming through the level constantly adaptign your game to each new level. I think you dont have to go through every level to be exceptional, but I doubt many bad players do it all the same.

this is just nonsense imo.

Ollieboy

dagunman wrote: »

I think Llyod is right. You can say Smurfit didnt start grinding .25/.50 but this post is about young Irish players. Of the 6 or so players I know playing 5/10 or above, all without exception started playing .25/.50 and ground there way up. I believe building a bank role is like building a house. If you put in the correct fondations it will stand up when tested. People who spin up a role are the same ppl who spin it down.
I find it ironic in away that I am posting on baords about this as I have long been of the opinion that boards is one of the elements which is holding back the development of a lot of players. Ppl come on here and say x is great and y is great, when in reality there prob v average players and barely breaking even.
In any case I started this thread to find out why we are'nt producing top players at the rate others are. My sponsorship thing was just to get the ball rolling but there are more reasons.
I have been lucky I have always had ppl around me to teach me and improve my game. Poker is a game where you feed off the ppl arond you. The more top players around the better we will all get.
This form seems spilt between ppl who are happy to except were just bad and thats it , and others who think were gods gift to poker.
There is a reason why we havnt had ppl in the mix for ept's this year and its not for our lack of our poker playing population.
After all there were 18 Irish ppl in EPT Dublin the only young person was chub.

I think we all agree that we would love to see more young people come through from Ireland, but nobody can explain why it an't happen, or maybe we over estimate how good we should be in the internation scene. But Ireland is 6 million v's 400 million in Europe and when you include the states etc, well maybe we do ok. Thats all I'm saying.

YULETIRED

hopefully more older players will come through...to hell with those young fellas.

dagunman

ollieboy that's horse **** you cant say if you dont have the role you shouldn't travel circut, there are so many winning players who wouldnt b playing the circut without backing. I doubt Roland for instance would be playing many events if he wasnt paid in. Joe there was no value in the EPT cause were just not at that skill level.

Mr.Plough

Cloutier doesn't use his own money for tournys because he busts it all at the craps table

Ollieboy

dagunman wrote: »

ollieboy that's horse **** you cant say if you dont have the role you shouldn't travel circut, there are so many winning players who wouldnt b playing the circut without backing. I doubt Roland for instance would be playing many events if he wasnt paid in. Joe there was no value in the EPT cause were just not at that skill level.

if you can't afford to play the circuit, than your not winning enough in the 1st place, of course there's alway the exception when a top player goes busto. But your not going to give the backing to a player that as never been to a major final table or even won something, if you win something today, your bankroll to play the circuit for a long time.

I never buy-in to any major event over 1.5k, as its just not worth it as the variance is to big, I think most players that do are mad or have great faith in there skill. But you can sat into most major events and if you can't get in by sat, than your usually not good enough to play these events. there is a big event every week, why buy-in when you can just wait your time and sat into the next one, some players are to eager to buy-in to all the major events and will go bust quick doing that. A lot of big name pro's this year only play certain events on the circuit due to the costs, backing these players is better value than backing somebody from Ireland thats won nothing or is promising.

bops

YULETIRED wrote: »

hopefully more older players will come through...to hell with those young fellas.

correct! (is 32 old??)

Ollieboy

Mr.Plough wrote: »

Cloutier doesn't use his own money for tournys because he busts it all at the craps table

thats not true, he's far from busts, he's a big crap player and likes the thrill, but he's still a very wealthy man. I was reading recently that he charge one person 15k for 1 days lessions. he admits to the problem with craps, but tries his best to control it.

But he did mention he's loss nearly 1 million playing craps....omg

MrPillowTalk

There are only about 20 Irish players I rate, Im not sure why better players arent developing quicker in Ireland, Im not sure sponsorship would do anything tbh.

I dont think half the guys who play the ept circuit can really afford to be there either, and the truth is if someone isnt winning regularly then calling them a talented player is just wrong really and a bit delusional and all part of the fantasy that seems to surround Irish poker.

I have no idea what the answers are, there is definately a big gain to be had by talking to players at a similar or higher level to yourself and learning together, that has happened with a couple of groups in the irish scene but could probably be a kit more widespread I suppose.

MrPillowTalk

Ollieboy wrote: »

thats not true, he's far from busts, he's a big crap player and likes the thrill, but he's still a very wealthy man. I was reading recently that he charge one person 15k for 1 days lessions. he admits to the problem with craps, but tries his best to control it.

But he did mention he's loss nearly 1 million playing craps....omg

I ran into TJ at the craps table in Vegas he was playing $25 a throw and was trying to borrow off everyone he knew.

Didnt strike me as a wealthy man.

RoundTower

Ollie,

because you are used to playing tournaments you probably judge people's poker ability by the amount of tourney cashes they have, or final tables, or tourneys won, or money won. In fact the main way to cash in a lot of tourneys is to play a lot of tourneys.

If I learn to be twice as good at tourneys and play the same amount, I will probably cash for about 25% more every year. If I play like I do now and play twice as many I will cash for 100% more. It's very simple that way.

So yes, starting off with a load of money and having a big roll helps you be successful in tournaments, by your definition. Equally well, being famous and getting on TV a bit can get you sponsored, so you play more tournaments, so you are more successful by that definition. However if you are a good player who doesn't play that many tourneys you will make more % profit, but cash for less, and not be famous.

Ollieboy

RoundTower wrote: »

Ollie,

because you are used to playing tournaments you probably judge people's poker ability by the amount of tourney cashes they have, or final tables, or tourneys won, or money won. In fact the main way to cash in a lot of tourneys is to play a lot of tourneys.

If I learn to be twice as good at tourneys and play the same amount, I will probably cash for about 25% more every year. If I play like I do now and play twice as many I will cash for 100% more. It's very simple that way.

So yes, starting off with a load of money and having a big roll helps you be successful in tournaments, by your definition. Equally well, being famous and getting on TV a bit can get you sponsored, so you play more tournaments, so you are more successful by that definition. However if you are a good player who doesn't play that many tourneys you will make more % profit, but cash for less, and not be famous.

Agreed with your point, I personally rate people by there play and not cashes, anyone can be top of rankings if there playing a lot of tourneys etc and be a losing player. Also, tourneys aren't that hard to play, most of the skills involved can be easily pick up, but when you see a really good tourney player, you will know it.

Success at tourneys, does not make you a great player, it will mean your a very good player.

Example, Sorel is a really top tourney player, I hit a set of Q's against him at a event in the states, he fold Aq on a Q high flop. It was amazing laydown, he had me on a overpair and later he was supprised that I had a set, but he's a quality tourney player and as the bankroll to play at the top level. He's now back by a software house. This is the sort of player we need to see from Ireland and when he comes, I'm sure people like PPP will be willing to back him

Ollieboy

MrPillowTalk wrote: »

I ran into TJ at the craps table in Vegas he was playing $25 a throw and was trying to borrow off everyone he knew.

Didnt strike me as a wealthy man.

he usually only brings about 2.5k to the table, this is his way of controlling his problem, after that I'm sure he borrows when he's hook. In the piece I read he mention when he goes to Vegas he brings very little money as he scared he'll lose it at the craps table.

he also mention that he sometimes brings 20k....lol

He also spend over 1/2 million keeping his brother out of prison.

I dont know if he as money or not, but I hope for his stake he does. He's seems to be a real gent at the table and the beat he took against Jesus at the WSOP in 2000 at headsup, shows what a gent he his.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

THEIRISHMOB

Ollieboy wrote: »

firstly, your intentions are good, but you are so far of the mark that you can't even see it.

PPP owe nothing to Irish Poker, most of there business is the UK and to have a event like the Irish Open in this country is massive. Its rated as one of the biggest events to win outside WSOP, EPT and WPT. I reckon PPP spend closed to 1 million on the IO each year and thats a massive boast to the local poker community.

As for the performance of Irish players, well most of them have thereselves to blame.

In 2006 I was in Vegas for the WSOP Main Event. I watch nearly all the young Irish players been hook on video games, crap tables and the enjoyment that vegas as to offer. I dont think any of them took it serious, like eating fruit, staying of the beer, getting plenty of sleep. Most of them treat it like a holiday and thats fair enough, but you have a chance to change your life and your more interest in winning at video games. I'm not taking a swing at any of the lads, there all great players and know how to enjoy themselves, but poker is a business and you have to treat it like that. Rob Taylor is one of the few newer players to realise this and he works at his game in the correct manner and keeps his head down. He wants the fame and money and that will trive him on to success.

Now the performance of Irish players in relation to the international arena. Well our performances have been very good. Many Irish players have done well in the last few years. But remember the size of our country, 4 million. Were one off the smallest poker communities in the world and we achieve way above our level. You see 20 greeks, don't the greeks have 60 million odd population?

So there is only 10 players in Ireland beaten 5/10, I would reckon thats correct. But the community here is so small it makes it hard for these players to access the bigger lives games, hence they dont win big tourneys, but there very successiful players.

As I said, your intentions are right, but PPP or Boyles sponsor a Irish player is not a option, as the market place here is so small. Look at Germany recently, 3 new sign pro's by full-tilt, is this to increase the game or standard of game in Germany? No its about winning the market place in a massive growing and young market. Ireland doesn't have this.

Anyway, end of my rant.

I would love to see some new players coming through in Ireland, but outside about 20 players I know, few I feel have the game at the top level. I dont want to mention people, but a big score and running well in one tourney doesn't make you a successiful player, it takes years of work and continue success. But if you have the bankroll you can gain the learning curve, but very few Irish players have the funds.

intereting to hear other peoples fews.

I think this is a big factor with the development of new players in this country..go to any poker festival and what do you find....guys on the piss..!!!

If you want to suceed at anything to a high level you have to treat it professionally. How many guys do you ever see in this country young or old taking it serious. eating well, excersing, getting enough sleep, trying to learn rather than playing music to pass the time. and we wonder where we go wrong...!!

nicnicnic

most of the best players in the world have serious coke habits, it is almost impossible to get quality coke in ireland, to compeat at the highest level young irish players should move to south america or miami

bohsman

Ollieboy wrote: »

he usually only brings about 2.5k to the table, this is his way of controlling his problem, after that I'm sure he borrows when he's hook. In the piece I read he mention when he goes to Vegas he brings very little money as he scared he'll lose it at the craps table.

he also mention that he sometimes brings 20k....lol

He also spend over 1/2 million keeping his brother out of prison.

I dont know if he as money or not, but I hope for his stake he does. He's seems to be a real gent at the table and the beat he took against Jesus at the WSOP in 2000 at headsup, shows what a gent he his.

Hes not allowed collect his tourney winnings from the cage on his own, he has to get one of his backers to go with him.

THEIRISHMOB

nicnicnic wrote: »

most of the best players in the world have serious coke habits, it is almost impossible to get quality coke in ireland, to compeat at the highest level young irish players should move to south america or miami

what?
I was in superquinn today and they have all the Coke you want out there.
your shopping in Lidl way too much.