UCD Students And The Treaty of Lisbon

Chakar

Everybody calm down it's only two posters albeit raunchy by the youth wing of Fine Gael.

Irish Times wrote:

TWO RISQUÉ posters urging a Yes vote to the Lisbon Treaty were unveiled by Young Fine Gael yesterday as it launched its campaign.

Young Fine Gael president Barry Walsh said the posters were designed as an antidote to the staid nature of the campaign to date. He urged support for the treaty because of the real potential it offered to further improve the prospects of young people in Ireland and Europe.

Among the benefits to young people, he listed opportunities to study and work abroad, the euro, massive EU investment in Ireland, peace, equality and environmental protection.

Mr Walsh said that a recent poll illustrated the importance that the youth vote will have in securing a Yes vote for the treaty as the strongest support for it lay in the 18-24-year-old age group, with 60 per cent saying they will vote in favour.

"Our campaign will engage with young people ... outlining its positive aspects. We will try to excite the imaginations of younger voters on Europe, rather than pontificate to them about legalities, or scare them into voting Yes," he said.

© 2008 The Irish Times

pretty*monster

Chakar wrote: »

Everybody calm down it's only two posters albeit raunchy by the youth wing of Fine Gael.

I don't think people have an issue with it's raunchiness so much as with the fact that it is grossly insulting to the intelligence of young Irish voters.

Chakar

It doesn't really matter though as I doubt it will be of any particular prominence in the overall campaign. I think the posters are basically an attention-seeking exercise for YFG, they wanted a blaze of "publicity" to launch their campaign. It obviously backfired and badly.

arbeitsscheuer

pretty*monster wrote: »

I don't think people have an issue with it's raunchiness so much as with the fact that it is grossly insulting to the intelligence of young Irish voters.

QFT.

You know what's really depressing?

It'll probably work.

The_Minister

They did the same for the Nice Treaty.

Het-Field

The_Minister wrote: »

They did the same for the Nice Treaty.

And Amsterdam. I doubt they will be able to continue rehashing the same idea time and time again. But it has made the news and it has made ripples. For a change Fianna Fail have not beaten FG to the punch.

Still think its a bit naff

Red Alert

Turns out today according to the daily mail that there was an email doing the rounds in government advocating trying to deceive and frighten people into a yes vote.

The_Minister

Red Alert wrote: »

Turns out today according to the daily mail that there was an email doing the rounds in government advocating trying to deceive and frighten people into a yes vote.

That is not what it said. I have an essay to write, so I will come back later with a longer reply.

Breezer

Red Alert wrote: »

Turns out today according to the daily mail that there was an email doing the rounds in government advocating trying to deceive and frighten people into a yes vote.

Didn't see it I must admit, but seriously, the Daily Mail? :rolleyes: That rubbish makes the YFG posters look like complex legal documents.

Red Alert

Said it in the irish times too yesterday. Apparently the plan is to get the debate off the specifics of the treaty. Sounds like a pulling-of-wool exercise to me!

Chakar

THE DEPARTMENT of Foreign Affairs has been embarrassed by the leaking of a memo which outlines what a senior British diplomat believed to be the Government's strategy for the handling of the Lisbon Treaty referendum.

The Daily Mail

The memo states that European Commission vice-president Margot Wallström told Minister for Foreign Affairs Dermot Ahern "that the commission was willing to tone down or delay messages that might be unhelpful" in advance of the referendum on the Lisbon Treaty, according to the Daily Mail.

The newspaper also reports the memo as stating that Mr Mulhall said the referendum was being held in June rather than October because of "the risk of unhelpful developments during the French presidency - particularly related to EU defence".

In this context French president Nicolas Sarkozy was described as "completely unpredictable".

France takes over the EU presidency from July to December of this year.
The memo is reported as saying the Government believed: "Most people would not have time to study the text and would go with the politicians they trusted." As a result, the "aim is to focus the campaign on overall benefits of the EU rather than the treaty itself".

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Mr Mulhall have refused to comment on the leaked e-mail, which is not published in full and has not been seen by The Irish Times. In the memo, Mr Mulhall was also reported to be concerned about "a World Trade Organisation deal based on agricultural concessions that could lead the powerful farming association to withdraw its support" for the treaty.

The Taoiseach downplayed the memo at a joint news conference at Government Buildings with German chancellor Angela Merkel. "On the article today, of course officials from Foreign Affairs, and my department as well, meet our European colleagues on a very regular basis, but the suggestion that Europe will somehow deliberately change announcements ahead of the referendum is without any foundation."

A spokesman for the Department of Foreign Affairs said yesterday it had no knowledge of the e-mail.

"The Government position on the reform treaty has been outlined in detail and in public by the Taoiseach, the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern, and the Minister with responsibility for European Affairs, Dick Roche," he added.

A British government spokesman said it would not comment on any leaked e-mail.

However, it is understood that Irish officials are regularly briefing diplomats from other member states, including Britain, on the upcoming referendum.

Campaigners against the Lisbon Treaty reacted angrily to the newspaper report yesterday and called on the Government to clarify what it had told the British government about its referendum campaign.

"If the story is accurate, it means that senior officials in the Irish Government are actively conspiring to release as little information as possible about the Lisbon Treaty in order to preserve the chances of a Yes vote," said Declan Ganley, chairman of the anti-treaty campaign group, Libertas.

He said the single-most damning thing about the e-mail was "the admission that the Government hoped that very few people would actually read the text of the treaty, and would simply 'vote with the politicians they trust' ".

Munster MEP Kathy Sinnott said she was "not surprised" by the leaked information, which showed the Government had been assured that inconvenient legislation from Brussels would be shelved until after the referendum.

"I consider it unfortunate and indicative of what we can expect for democracy once the Lisbon Treaty comes into force," she said.

© 2008 The Irish Times

That's the full article in yesterday's Irish Times. I wouldn't put any weight on it as the email is full of ambiguities. Also Red Alert please do inform yourself regarding the Lisbon Treaty with the links I've supplied in an earlier post. There will also be a booklet issued to every household in the country.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=55610339&postcount=21

The_Minister

Red Alert wrote: »

Said it in the irish times too yesterday. Apparently the plan is to get the debate off the specifics of the treaty. Sounds like a pulling-of-wool exercise to me!

There was a report on it on the RTE 6 o'clock news. It should be on RTE later.
It should be noted that the information in the memo is 3rd hand - it's what a British diplomat thought was the understanding between Dermot Ahern and the EU.

gliondar

I find it remarkable how a few short months ago Yes side were denouncing the No side for inviting foreign anti-treaty politicians to debate it in Ireland. The Yes side demanded that foreigners keep out.

Now, German Chancellor Angela Merkel and EU Commission President Jose Barosso and a list of other EU bureaucrats are flooding the country to preach for a Yes vote. What changed exactly? Double-standards anyone?

I believe the motivation behind the Government's endorsement of Lisbon treaty is that, by doing so, they hope to cement their future in Brussels.

The_Minister

Wiki Jean-Marie Le Pen and you might begin to understand the objections.

Breezer

Red Alert wrote: »

Said it in the irish times too yesterday. Apparently the plan is to get the debate off the specifics of the treaty. Sounds like a pulling-of-wool exercise to me!

It would seem a bit strange. However, both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil have websites that deal with the specifics of the treaty (I'm sure Labour and the PDs do too, tbh I haven't checked), and as Chakar said the Referendum Commission will be distributing a booklet to households.

Gliondar, without getting into an argument, I have no personal problem with foreigners coming to campaign for either side, provided they are not spreading misinformation.

Red Alert

The referendum commission it says was also asked to tone down certain comments about the treaty as well.

Breezer

I'm fairly sure the 'commission' they were referring to there is the European Commission rather than the Referendum Commission. The Referendum Commission is an independent body in charge of explaining the facts of referenda in plain, neutral English; if either side were to approach it asking it to take a particular slant on an issue they would be in breach of the law.

Tom65

Breezer wrote: »

It would seem a bit strange. However, both Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil have websites that deal with the specifics of the treaty (I'm sure Labour and the PDs do too, tbh I haven't checked), and as Chakar said the Referendum Commission will be distributing a booklet to households.

Gliondar, without getting into an argument, I have no personal problem with foreigners coming to campaign for either side, provided they are not spreading misinformation.

I got a pamphlet my from local library and I was wondering if its the same one as the one they're distributing. It seemed very pro-Yes and that was just to me (as a Yes voter). Maybe it is the facts and there really is no downside whatsoever to the Treaty, but it seemed biased.

Breezer

Tom65 wrote: »

I got a pamphlet my from local library and I was wondering if its the same one as the one they're distributing. It seemed very pro-Yes and that was just to me (as a Yes voter). Maybe it is the facts and there really is no downside whatsoever to the Treaty, but it seemed biased.

Did it have 'Referendum Commission' printed on it anywhere? They give the facts and nothing else, they're not allowed be partisan. Although I didn't think they had it done up yet though, could be wrong.

nomorebadtown

gliondar wrote: »

I'm passionately pro-Europe and pro-EU. Always have been. But this Treaty flies in the face of the proud tradition of democracy and accountability that we have fostered for fifty years.

bang on.

Het-Field wrote: »

For a start Patricia McKenna is the Mary White (FF Senator) or Dick Roche of the Green Party i.e. a laughing stock. She is a no hoper who is a fringe of a fringe.

This coming from a PD supporter? Dont make me laugh, that whole party is a laughing stock.

Tom65

Breezer wrote: »

Did it have 'Referendum Commission' printed on it anywhere? They give the facts and nothing else, they're not allowed be partisan. Although I didn't think they had it done up yet though, could be wrong.

Nope. Looking through, it really doesn't give an indication of who printed it, though for further information it gives web addresses of the Department of Foreign Affairs and reformtreaty.ie. On reformtreaty.ie (run by Dep. of Foreign Affairs) it has a PDF of the pamphlet here:
http://www.reformtreaty.ie/eutreaty/EUTreatyEnglish.pdf

Obviously FF & PD are supporting it (the Greens too, more or less) but I don't know what the rules on the Department of Foreign Affairs having a site like that are.

Peleus

Tom65 wrote: »

I'll probably vote Yes. I've read up on it aubt, and I'm 'pro-Europe' (I don't like that term...more that I recognise that the EU has done a lot of good). I'm still weary of the EU overstepping its boundary as regards autonomy. Diminishing power in Europe was always going to be likely with the accession states a couple of years ago. In order to make the EU, I think the Lisbon Treaty is necessary. Plus, I'd trust Europe a lot more on some issues than I'd trust the Daíl.

In the couple of months until the referendum, I could probably be persuaded to vote No, but as it stands I'm fairly convinced that its worth a Yes vote.

if you vote no, they will probably amend the treaty to make it more clear as to what is going on. Theres no proper information available so why should we vote yes and give them what they want? I say NO. Ireland's great the way it is, the last thing we need is some guys from Europe running our country without knowing what they can do with us under this treaty.

Four-Too

+1. Ireland is going better now than we can imagine, we don't appreciate how good life actually is in Ireland, and how much worse it could be, especially when you enter the unknown...

Breezer

Four-Too wrote: »

+1. Ireland is going better now than we can imagine, we don't appreciate how good life actually is in Ireland, and how much worse it could be, especially when you enter the unknown...

We are entering an economic slowdown, our health service is in bits and unable to afford extra staff, public transport is not only a mess, but an expensive mess, unemployment levels are the highest they have been for approximately a decade and rising, gangland crime rages on, many people are in negative equity, higher level education is experiencing a funding crisis, schools are overcrowded... The list goes on. So I would dispute your comments.

However, none of this has anything to do with Lisbon, except that Europe might actually force the Government to pull its socks up on one or two issues, such as energy.

You refer to "the unknown." The fact is that the future is unknown regardless of what way we vote. Europe cannot continue in its present form, it has become too large to be effectively managed by existing structures. Lisbon presents an alternative. If we vote No, they'll simply have to come up with a different alternative.

Red Alert

A different alternative that might be more acceptable to all of us?

Peleus

Red Alert wrote: »

A different alternative that might be more acceptable to all of us?

exactly.


You know one of the predicted steps towards the future New World Order and the World president is Europe as a single entity. If we vote yes to the lisbon treaty, Europe will have its own president and have power over all its countries. Whats next? Some other treaty which allows a World President to come to power? Where will Ireland and its culture be then?

So many people died to give Ireland its independance, why should we give any more power over to Europe?

Breezer

Red Alert wrote:

A different alternative that might be more acceptable to all of us?

Possibly. Or possibly something you'll find even more unpalatable. Personally I find Lisbon perfectly acceptable. My point was that Lisbon does not open the floodgates to some unknown future: the future is unknown anyway.

Peleus wrote: »

exactly.


You know one of the predicted steps towards the future New World Order and the World president is Europe as a single entity. If we vote yes to the lisbon treaty, Europe will have its own president and have power over all its countries. Whats next? Some other treaty which allows a World President to come to power? Where will Ireland and its culture be then?

So many people died to give Ireland its independance, why should we give any more power over to Europe?

Europe will not have a president in the same way as the United States, for example, has a president. The existing position of the President of the European Council (not a 'President of Europe') will be given a two and a half year term rather than the current 6 month term. It will still be largely a figurehead role, just as it is now.

What exactly are you referring to when you say that Europe will"have power over all its countries"? European law already overrules Irish law. This treaty does not grant any new exclusive powers to Europe (as in, there are no new areas where states cannot make any of their own laws). It also sets out specifically the areas where Europe can overrule member states, thereby limiting Europe's powers to these areas, rather than having a vague notion of Europe being in control on anything it likes. These areas include, for example, the environment, public health, consumer protection, transport and energy, all areas where I think Ireland could learn a thing or two from Europe.

Your notion of a 'world president' is a nice conspiracy theory. :rolleyes:

People fought and died to give Ireland the opportunity to decide its own future. They succeeded in that aim. We voted to join Europe. We now have a choice regarding the future direction of Europe. By all means, if you disagree with this direction then vote No, but don't pretend that a Yes vote is somehow an insult to the founders of this nation: they fought for choice, and Yes is just as valid a choice as No.

Het-Field

nomorebadtown wrote: »

bang on.


This coming from a PD supporter? Dont make me laugh, that whole party is a laughing stock.

You sir are a complete moron. What the hell do my political affiliations have to do with my ability to cite common knowledge about McKenna, White and Roche being incompetent jokes.

The_Minister

Attack the post and not the poster.
Infraction given.

Chakar

A new website providing information on the Lisbon Treaty was today launched to educate voters in advance of June’s crucial referendum.

Established by the Referendum Commission, the independent body set up to boost public awareness on the issue, the site sets out what the treaty is about and how the EU will be changed if ratified.

The website launch comes just days after German Chancellor Angela Merkel and EU Commission President Jose Manuel Barroso visited the country to highlight the importance of a Yes vote.

The body will also set out the plans for its public information campaign at a briefing on Wednesday and reveal the results of a poll assessing the level of knowledge on the treaty.

Environment Minister John Gormley made an order setting up the Referendum Commission on March 6th.

It has been allocated a budget of €5 million for its work.

It does not advise voters which side to take when voting, but merely informs them about the issues and encourages them to cast their ballot.

Mr Justice Iarfhlaith O’Neill, Judge of the High Court was appointed as chairperson on the nomination of the Chief Justice.

The other members are the Clerk of the Dail Kieran Coughlan, the Clerk of the Seanad Deirdre Lane, the Ombudsman Emily O’Reilly and the Comptroller and Auditor General John Purcell.

The website address is www.lisbontreaty2008.ie

Meanwhile the Government’s summary guide to the Reform Treaty is currently being distributed to all households in the State.

Foreign Affairs Minister Dermot Ahern said the 48-page booklet in both Irish and English sets out in a clear and factual manner the treaty’s proposed changes.

“The distribution of this guide is part of the Government’s efforts to ensure that the public are as well informed as possible regarding the content of the Treaty, which will be the subject of a referendum in June,” he said.

“In addition to this guide, the Government has published a White Paper, explaining the Treaty’s content in more detail.

“Earlier this week, the European Union published the consolidated version of the EU Treaties, incorporating the changes to be made by the Reform Treaty, once ratified. That document shows exactly how the Reform Treaty will amend the existing Treaties. It shows the legal framework that will apply if the Reform Treaty is ratified by all Member States.”

Mr Ahern added that in the coming weeks the government will facilitate “the best informed public debate for any referendum in our history.”

“I am confident that when people are informed about this Treaty, they will dismiss the myths being promoted by Treaty opponents and give a resounding Yes on polling day.

“A reading of the Government guide will confirm that there is nothing to fear and much to gain from ratifying a Treaty whose provisions are firmly in Ireland’s and in Europe’s interests,” Mr Ahern said.

© 2008 ireland.com

The Referendum Commission website has been set up at www.lisbontreaty2008.ie and a 48 page summary guide to the Treaty is currently being distributed to all households in Ireland.

Red Alert wrote:

A different alternative that might be more acceptable to all of us?

Why isn't the Lisbon Treaty acceptable to you? Have you looked up information regarding the Treaty and made your decision?

I know myself that I wasn't sure about the Treaty, a few months ago when all this crap coming out from the No side. However I informed myself and I've decided to support its ratification.