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Do you think Christians get the problems people have with their religion?
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I understand that, but in fairness if you took 100 people who shared your views how many of them would spend so much time in this forum?It's interesting that you are interested in my inner workings
I'm partly motivated by pride i.e. in winning debates but I'm more motivated by the importance of bringing Christ to those who don't believe in Him and don't really understand what He's about. I am saddened by the fact that people don't understand God's limitless goodness. I am frustrated by the fact that I can't adequately communicate the beauty of God's plan for us. It is also regrettable that many here find my beliefs laughable and put my faith down to nothing more than delusion.
I'm in the difficult position that I've discovered something very beautiful and when I try to convey this, it's usually met with disbelief, mistrust and ridicule. Most people for example don't see the value of holiness, or virginity or chastity and giving up worldly pleasure for the sake of God. Most don't see the value of "taking up ones cross" in order to be a disciple of Christ. I really just think people are blind to God way's and I think this is the greatest of tragedies. People will try to seek happiness in anything but God e.g. drink, drugs, sex, money etc but none of these things bring lasting happiness and often end up in suffering when disillusionment sets in or our excesses catch up with us.
Catholicism in particular can be very difficult to defend. There is a huge amount of misunderstanding about the Church propagated by those who are ignorant or openly hostile towards the Church. The Church has no shortage of enemies and you have to wonder why sometimes why it is persecuted so much. Yes, the Church has scored lots of "own goals" but I still believe that it was founded by Christ and will continue to grow in holiness until the Church becomes ready to be the "bride of Christ" as told in Revelation.
Is there anything in particular about my psychology that you can't fathom?
I cannot put my finger on why exactly you are here. I think you know you won't convert anyone, are you trying to play out an argument that is in your mind?0 -
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It's interesting that you are interested in my inner workings
I'm partly motivated by pride i.e. in winning debates but I'm more motivated by the importance of bringing Christ to those who don't believe in Him and don't really understand what He's about.....
Why should you care? Its none of your business what I or anyone else chooses to believe unless they ask you to or then we wouldn't have these forums. Unless you feel insecure about isolating nature of your religious ways. Are you insecure? Btw I don't think anybody looks for happiness in drugs, sex, rock and roll etc. I know I certainly don't. Your belief in God is just that a belief and something personal to you, unless you can prove otherwise which you haven't yet to me anyway. WRT the OP Christianity has it easy.0 -
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I also live in the hope that someday you'll post something pleasant instead of your usual bitter words.CerebralCortex wrote: »Why should you care? Its none of your business what I or anyone else chooses to believe unless they ask you to or then we wouldn't have these forums. Unless you feel insecure about isolating nature of your religious ways. Are you insecure? Btw I don't think anybody looks for happiness in drugs, sex, rock and roll etc. I know I certainly don't. Your belief in God is just that a belief and something personal to you, unless you can prove otherwise which you haven't yet to me anyway.
Why do you post in the Christianity forum? All I've seen from you is attacks.
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I also live in the hope that someday you'll post something pleasant instead of your usual bitter words.
Why do you post in the Christianity forum? All I've seen from you is attacks.
Because I aspire to a world wide secular culture. Did you ever perhaps think your posts may be subjective and offensive to some? They offend me because they are concerned only with imposing your beliefs on people who have long since woken up from religious delusion. I don't have to say anything nice because as far as I am concerned you don't say anything nice either.
rant over.0 -
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Before shooting down Kelly1 about his motives for being here, I might remind you all of the vocal presence of many heathens in the Christianity forum.
Quite the contrary!!
I welcomed the debate it’s just a pity it’s not a two way street!
It was the unwillingness to br listened to, in the Christian forum that baffled me!
Heathens?! Interesting choice of word?
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I believe God's primary concern for us is our salvation.
Well firstly why do you believe that (you seem to be routinely justifying one leap of faith with another leap of faith, which makes these conversations go around in circles).
Secondly do you think that rules out a bad god, or requires that god can only do good?
I'm not quite sure that applies to the events in the Old Testament. In the old testament it is more a case of curing the disease by killing the patient. If the people of Jericho or Ai were "on the road to destruction" destroying them would appear to cause the very thing you say God would want to prevent.So God punishes this person so that they come to their sense and realize that they're on the road to destruction.
We are getting slightly off topic, but that only leads to damnation because God says it does. It could just as easily not lead to damnation. Damnation, from the damnation of Adam onwards, is Gods decision.As a general point, if we had very little suffering and difficulties in this life, we wouldn't have much reason to turn to God. We would be living in an earthly paradise but without recourse to our Creator and this would lead to damnation.
that isn't true Kelly. The Bible doesn't describe these people as either unwilling to repent or given the option to. It describes them as being wicked but not that they were even aware of the Hebrew god.In the O/T, some people were killed outright and some were punished depending on the extent of their wickedness and their willingness to repent.
Besides infants can't repent for anything.
But Kelly you are judging God, you are judging him good and perfect. There is no point saying that anyone who judges God bad is doing so in a flawed misunderstood manner, because if that is the case it applies equally to you when you judge him goodMaybe I did. Having said that, I want to understand why God does the things He does from His perspective and not judge God according to my very limited wisdom, knowledge and understanding.
How are you able to do this with any confidence?
Surely if God is truly incomprehensible for our limited minds you can't say he is good or bad, moral or evil, just or unjust, either way?
Yes but how have you determined that?There is no comparison between God and a tryant. Tyrants are selfish and power-hungry whereas God is concerned with our happiness and ultimate fate and doesn not attempt to control us.
This is what I'm asking you. I know you believe that, I am asking you why and how you believe that?He showed them His great mercy by sending His Son to die for them. And what did they do? The had Him crucified! And God continues to love us despite all this.
Of course they had him crucified How else could he have died for our sins.
We would all have been screwed if the Jews had said "Lets give him a fine" and Jesus died of old age in a hut some where on the Dead Sea.
That is Circular reasoningI means I have faith or I believe that God is the greatest good and is incapable of evil because it is totally opposite and repugnant to His nature.
You believe God is good because you believe God's nature is to be good. Those two statements mean the same thing. One doesn't explain the other.
Why do you believe God is good? Or, on what basis have you determined that God's nature is to be good and only good?
Well that is why I'm asking.You could easily say that I believe this because I want to believe it.
If it isn't simply wishful thinking, or the extension of the argument that a unjust evil God serves you no purpose so you would only believe from the start in a god that is just because then that serves you, then what is it?
I'm not following though how you equate that with the position that God can only be good. You can certainly claim he was good to you, but I don't see you reason to extent that out to say he can't be bad to others.While that is true, it's not the only reason I believe in a good God. I have had many prayers answered and my life had changed dramatically for the better since I turned back to God.
Also saying that God makes you feel wonderful again doesn't really demonstrate anything. Falling into Goodwin's law, Hitler made a lot of people feel wonderful because he inspired great pride in the German people. He did a large number of great things for German (which the neo-Nazis never stop reminding people of). But that in itself doesn't demonstrate that he either was good or could only do good.
Well not really. A "bad" God would certainly be destructive, not sure why he would be self destructive. Not sure how a god could destroy itself.Not really but I think it's rational to say that a "bad" God would be self-destructive.
Again I don't know what that means.Difficult one to answer. I don't know for certain so it boils down to faith really.
At some point the idea itself must enter your brain and you go "That makes sense I'll accept that" You obviously don't believe everything people tell you, why did you believe that God was infinitely wise?
Well I'm not really asking "for sure", why you believe it at all would be a start. You say you don't believe God would keep us in the dark, I'm not sure how that relates to Ezekiel, but also I'm not sure the rational for that in the first place.I can't know for sure.0 -
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I believe that losts of people who don't include God in their lives will replace Him with something else. e.g. materialism.
On materialism for example
The Catholic Church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. It is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twenty first century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of Euros.
Gods been replaced by the looks of it!! 0 -
That's a myth. The Church needs property to function but the Pope doesn't own it. Why don't you try checking out Pope John Paul II's last will and testament and you'll see just how little he owned. The Vatican's art collection for instance will never be sold and costs a lot of money to maintain and for the benefit of the public.The Catholic Church is the biggest financial power, wealth accumulator and property owner in existence. It is a greater possessor of material riches than any other single institution, corporation, bank, giant trust, government or state of the whole globe. The pope, as the visible ruler of this immense amassment of wealth, is consequently the richest individual of the twenty first century. No one can realistically assess how much he is worth in terms of billions of Euros.[/FONT]
Gods been replaced by the looks of it!!
If you think think the pope is the world's wealthiest individual, why did he never appear on the richest list with Bill Gates and Sheik Yerbouti or whatever his name is. So please get your facts straight instead of repeating unfounded stories.0 -
That's a myth. The Church needs property to function but the Pope doesn't own it. Why don't you try checking out Pope John Paul II's last will and testament and you'll see just how little he owned. The Vatican's art collection for instance will never be sold and costs a lot of money to maintain and for the benefit of the public.
If you think think the pope is the world's wealthiest individual, why did he never appear on the richest list with Bill Gates and Sheik Yerbouti or whatever his name is. So please get your facts straight instead of repeating unfounded stories.
LOL:D
Unlike your blind faith I’ll give you just a few facts!! REAL FACTS!
The Catholic Church, once all her assets have been put together, is the most formidable stockbroker in the world. The Vatican, independently of each successive pope, has been increasingly orientated towards the U.S. The Wall Street Journal said that the Vatican's financial deals in the U.S. alone were so big that very often it sold or bought gold in lots of a million or more dollars at one time. The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion Euro. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic Church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.
Facts! facts! facts! Kelly does the real truth hurt? 0 -
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LOL:D
Unlike your blind faith I’ll give you just a few facts!! REAL FACTS!
The Catholic Church, once all her assets have been put together, is the most formidable stockbroker in the world. The Vatican, independently of each successive pope, has been increasingly orientated towards the U.S. The Wall Street Journal said that the Vatican's financial deals in the U.S. alone were so big that very often it sold or bought gold in lots of a million or more dollars at one time. The Vatican's treasure of solid gold has been estimated by the United Nations World Magazine to amount to several billion Euro. A large bulk of this is stored in gold ingots with the U.S. Federal Reserve Bank, while banks in England and Switzerland hold the rest. But this is just a small portion of the wealth of the Vatican, which in the U.S. alone, is greater than that of the five wealthiest giant corporations of the country. When to that is added all the real estate, property, stocks and shares abroad, then the staggering accumulation of the wealth of the Catholic Church becomes so formidable as to defy any rational assessment.
Facts! facts! facts! Kelly does the real truth hurt?
You need sources for that dude.0 -
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