Do you think Christians get the problems people have with their religion?

kelly1 · 10-04-2008 3:51pm

robindch wrote: »

I'm not particularly trying to start an ontological scrap, but what do you actually mean when you say "infinite"? What's an infinite insult, or infinite dignity? Is it aleph-null, aleph-one or something else?

When I say infinite, I mean without limit. As an example if I curse at some hard-boiled criminal, he's not going to be too shocked, is he? Whereas if I curse at a bishop, he's going to be more perturbed and the more holy a person is the more that person find the curse( sin) offensive. So God being infinitely holy, finds sin infinitely repugnant.

Dades wrote: »

Because a tangible God is absent - his presence is in the mind only. Some 'see' him, some don't. What's that all about?

God lives in the souls of people who are in a state of grace. Nobody on earth has ever seen God but plenty have seen Jesus in apparitions.

Dades wrote: »

As for blood politics - God dropped Jesus as a Jew into the Roman Empire and had him start preaching stuff that was inevitably going to be seen as treason. His whole purpose was to die on the cross for our sins.

Jesus defied the Jewish religious authorities, not the romans. He showed them how they had departed from the spirit of the law.

Dades wrote: »

I'm not trying to stir things up - I really am trying to convey how bizarre a series of actions this would be for the creator of the universe.

I don't see this as bizarre at all. Maybe you don't appreciate the enormity of sin?

kelly1 · 10-04-2008 3:58pm

Wicknight wrote: »

You ignore that Jesus' perfect brilliant infinitely innocent human body only came from God in the first place.

His body in fact came from His mother. He was a human being just like all of us. If there was another way for the human race to atone for their sins, I'm sure God would have done that instead. It makes sense to me but not to you. So be it. God doesn't think like a human.

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 3:59pm

Dades wrote: »

that doesn't escape the issue that it it preposterous to suggest that an intelligent entity more powerful than we could even imagine would send his "son" to the middle east as a carpenter to save humans from themselves.

That is merely an assumption. Nothing more. One can suggest that , 'well he could have done this or that', but its all just assumption. The fact is, if God exists, then maybe you just don't have the forsight, knowledge, wisdom or understanding to realise why this was the best way for it to happen. God doesn't want to convince you. he has given you so much already, including the ability to observe his creation. You have already convinced yourself that all you see around you is anything but God. You don't know quite what it is, but you know it aint God. I started a thread here a while back, basically asking if god revealed himself, would you worship him. The general consensus was no. So why would god grant such people such a sign, for him to still be rejected. He has the faith of his followers, who do not seek signs in such a way (proove your existence), but will finally give the greatest sign he has given, when he comes to sift the wheat from the weeds. Faith is what is required (and faith is not blind, at least mine isn't), but so many have turned from faith, instead looking to the wisdom of man, which ironically IMO, does not give definitive answers to them neither, merely speculates over other possabilities. Such faith in man is misplaced, but the message is there for those who want to find it.

Dades · 10-04-2008 4:08pm

kelly1 wrote: »

I don't see this as bizarre at all. Maybe you don't appreciate the enormity of sin?

In response to the thread title, and with the greatest respect, I don't think you get the problems I have with your religion.

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 4:13pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

But where has he made these promises and things he has done????

He promised he'd bring his people out of Egypt to the promised land. Which he did.
He promised he'd destroy Sodom and gomorrah for its wichedness and he did.

He told us that Babylon would fall to persia, and that Persia would fall to Greece, and that Greece would fall after its king would die and it would be divided up in 4. All which happened.

He told us that a messiah would be sent to redeem us from our Accusation, which he did.

Now, I have faith that our messiah will return again due to that promise.

Dades · 10-04-2008 4:16pm

JimiTime wrote: »

That is merely an assumption. Nothing more. One can suggest that , 'well he could have done this or that', but its all just assumption. The fact is, if God exists, then maybe you just don't have the forsight, knowledge, wisdom or understanding to realise why this was the best way for it to happen.

I am all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but before I can do that they have to give some reason why they should be afforded it. I'm simply looking at the bible story in the stark light of reality and seeing only one possible rationale.

kelly1 · 10-04-2008 4:37pm

Dades wrote: »

In response to the thread title, and with the greatest respect, I don't think you get the problems I have with your religion.

OK, if I could backtrack a little, your issues seems to be these:

Because a tangible God is absent - his presence is in the mind only. Some 'see' him, some don't. What's that all about?

How can God be tangible and absent?? I'm not sure what the issue is here. Is it God's apparent lack of consistency?

As for blood politics - God dropped Jesus as a Jew into the Roman Empire and had him start preaching stuff that was inevitably going to be seen as treason. His whole purpose was to die on the cross for our sins.

Again, what's the issue here? The Messiah was of course going to be a Jew as foretold in the OT. He came to teach them, to put them back on the right path by showing the pharisees etc how they were displeasing to God by distorting the spirit of the Law. Isiah foretold how the "Suffering Servant" would be rejected and punished and would not try to defend Himself, just like a lamb. What specifically do you have issue with?

Zombrex · 10-04-2008 5:26pm

kelly1 wrote: »

His body in fact came from His mother. He was a human being just like all of us.

Well a human body requires a cell from the mother and a cell from the father. Who's sperm created Jesus? Or who created the sperm that created Jesus?

kelly1 wrote: »

It makes sense to me but not to you. So be it.

It doesn't appear to make sense to you Kelly, you accept it anyway.

You accept that God can send Jesus to Earth, give him a body, that this body can die and that action will atone to God for an insult "we" are supposed to have done to him ("we" being Adam and for some reason the rest of us)

When asked to explain how an action solely initiated and carried out on the behest of God can atone back to God for an insult done to him, you appear to not know beyond saying simply that it can.

You accept it anyway, which is fine. But there is little point pretending that it makes sense. And I really find the argument that we cannot understand God tiresome, consider you guys never seem to claim you can't understand God when you are telling the rest of us what he wants and how he is or how convinced you are that he exists and is what he appears to be.

Zombrex · 10-04-2008 5:29pm

JimiTime wrote: »

The fact is, if God exists, then maybe you just don't have the forsight, knowledge, wisdom or understanding to realise why this was the best way for it to happen.

That works both ways Jimi.

CerebralCortex · 10-04-2008 5:31pm

JimiTime wrote: »

He promised he'd bring his people out of Egypt to the promised land. Which he did.
He promised he'd destroy Sodom and gomorrah for its wichedness and he did.

He told us that Babylon would fall to persia, and that Persia would fall to Greece, and that Greece would fall after its king would die and it would be divided up in 4. All which happened.

He told us that a messiah would be sent to redeem us from our Accusation, which he did.

Now, I have faith that our messiah will return again due to that promise.

Please thats like me quoting the Lord of The Rings to prove Sauron existed. You have faith but you have no proof and that is pretty much all your going to be able to use convince me of his promises and deeds.

Dades · 10-04-2008 5:32pm

kelly1 wrote: »

OK, if I could backtrack a little, your issues seems to be these:

How can God be tangible and absent?? I'm not sure what the issue is here. Is it God's apparent lack of consistency?

Again, what's the issue here? The Messiah was of course going to be a Jew as foretold in the OT. He came to teach them, to put them back on the right path by showing the pharisees etc how they were displeasing to God by distorting the spirit of the Law. Isiah foretold how the "Suffering Servant" would be rejected and punished and would not try to defend Himself, just like a lamb. What specifically do you have issue with?

Noel - my issue is neither of these...

My issue (which I thought was obvious) was that bible provides a completely nonsensical description of how an entity responsible for the entire universe in all it's unbelievable complexity would interact with us.

Nothing else but this. Not sin, not free will. Just the concept of the builder of the universe communicating his great message to us through a Jewish carpenter in the middle east.

CerebralCortex · 10-04-2008 5:35pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Such faith in man is misplaced, but the message is there for those who want to find it.

Prove it without faith!!!

CerebralCortex · 10-04-2008 5:42pm

kelly1 wrote: »

When I say infinite, I mean without limit. As an example if I curse at some hard-boiled criminal, he's not going to be too shocked, is he? Whereas if I curse at a bishop, he's going to be more perturbed and the more holy a person is the more that person find the curse( sin) offensive. So God being infinitely holy, finds sin infinitely repugnant.

But he created sin so how does he feel about it?

robindch · 10-04-2008 5:44pm

...and adding to what Dades said...:

Quite apart from my general conviction that the bible is nothing more than a rather obviously incoherent collection of religious documents, the central christian belief itself is simply unbelievable.

Why would the creator of the universe made a deal with himself to send himself to an unimportant part of small planet in a primitive age, so that he could get himself nailed to a tree so that he could pay off a debt that he had incurred to himself as a result of some faulty design work that he'd carried out some years earlier.

At no level whatsoever does this weird, weird deal make sense.

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 5:55pm

Dades wrote: »

I am all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt, but before I can do that they have to give some reason why they should be afforded it. I'm simply looking at the bible story in the stark light of reality and seeing only one possible rationale.

Well maybe it shouldn't start with the bible. Remember, the Old and testament was written for people who already knew God and witnessed his workings. Looking at the bible to convince you that a god exists probably won't work. I think the first step for an atheist like yourself, is witnessing something first hand, or discovering that the evidence for a creator is staring you in the face. Maybe you should start with analysing what you currently actually 'know'. I don't mean things that are possibly open to correction etc, I mean actually 'know' as truth. not 'current truth' but truth. If this knowledge leaves room for something other than atheism, then assess why you, someone who i would think prides himself on reasonably waying it all up, define yourself as atheist. Think outside the atheist box in terms of origins, but don't step into a religious box. If doing this reaffirms your atheistic convictions, then I really don't know tbh.

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 5:57pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Prove it without faith!!!

No.

CerebralCortex · 10-04-2008 6:07pm

JimiTime wrote: »

No.

I thought as much.

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 6:07pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Please thats like me quoting the Lord of The Rings to prove Sauron existed. You have faith but you have no proof and that is pretty much all your going to be able to use convince me of his promises and deeds.

why, what were you expecting? to tell you that he's living in my attic? of course I've got faith!! The fact that things written in the scriptures came to be, shows us he keeps his promises. if you are arguing from a 'the bibles a pile of cr@p, written by some primitive desert tribe', then there is no reasoning my faith with you. however, as i said to Dades, you have not got the ability to reason the scriptures yet. They were written for people who knew god and witnessed his works. You are merely coming from a position that you think its all cr@p. you are infantile spiritually speaking (thats not meant to be insulting btw). The last post I did to dades applies also to yourself if you want to read it.

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 6:08pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I thought as much.

As i said before CC, you really build me up. thanks.

Dades · 10-04-2008 6:18pm

JimiTime wrote: »

Think outside the atheist box in terms of origins, but don't step into a religious box.

Tough one that!

But seriously, I will entertain any possibility, including a designer. Deism? Sure - why not?! But when people start giving said designer characteristics - thats when I draw the line. Especially if the story (in my view ) is simply bananas!

I happen to think it's a shame the term Intelligent Design has been spoiled by those that, well, aren't.

CerebralCortex · 10-04-2008 6:19pm

JimiTime wrote: »

why, what were you expecting? to tell you that he's living in my attic? of course I've got faith!! The fact that things written in the scriptures came to be, shows us he keeps his promises. if you are arguing from a 'the bibles a pile of cr@p, written by some primitive desert tribe', then there is no reasoning my faith with you. however, as i said to Dades, you have not got the ability to reason the scriptures yet. They were written for people who knew god and witnessed his works. You are merely coming from a position that you think its all cr@p. you are infantile spiritually speaking (thats not meant to be insulting btw). The last post I did to dades applies also to yourself if you want to read it.

Both insulting and highly offensive.
To address your assumptions.

1. I don't think the bible is a pile of crap (at least I shouldn't) its a brilliant tool for bringing groups of people together who just won't think for them selves.

2. I have thought deep about my beliefs and they do fluctuate but the idea christianity being a part of that flux was left behind years ago its just too simple for me.

I used not think christianity was crap because I ignored the questions that knocked it down like a house of cards or I was asleep whatever. I long for a community like the church but that is not to be unfortunately. The idea of your god is depressing and if were true (which its not) is quite troubling to me.

Ps. What the hell is the atheism box? Myself and Dades are both atheists but I'm pretty sure our beliefs are quite different.

stevejazzx · 10-04-2008 11:31pm

PDN wrote: »

I never said anything to give you the idea that I would view the Tsunami as an act of judgement.

You asked me one strange question for no apparent reason, so I thought I would reciprocate.

Now look here chappy, I went positively out of my way to give you every indication that your 'are you a rapist' commnet was possibly the worst attempt of ensnaring someone I have ever seen - I coundn't have poured more sarcasm over my last comments in realtion to such. However it appears that you have disregared the fact that I obviously fortold your strategy and continued to deploy your punchline nontheless. Now, given the nature of your arguments to date this move shouldn't be too surprising but I have to say I am genuinely astonished that you seem to believe it all went to plan.

Now, did you say you were a preist or a politician? I only ask becasue of your remarkable ability to sidestep the real questions and battle those which aren't of any real significance.

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 11:34pm

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Both insulting and highly offensive.

I don't buy it. But if you are offended, you needn't be, but its up to you.

1. I don't think the bible is a pile of crap (at least I shouldn't) its a brilliant tool for bringing groups of people together who just won't think for them selves.

LOL:D. how thought provoking.

2. I have thought deep about my beliefs and they do fluctuate but the idea christianity being a part of that flux was left behind years ago its just too simple for me.

Too bad, but going on your word, you gave it a fair trial before you found it guilty.

I used not think christianity was crap because I ignored the questions that knocked it down like a house of cards or I was asleep whatever. I long for a community like the church but that is not to be unfortunately. The idea of your god is depressing and if were true (which its not) is quite troubling to me.

Pity you feel this way about him. I'd say you obviously don't know him. but I would wouldn't I.

Ps. What the hell is the atheism box? Myself and Dades are both atheists but I'm pretty sure our beliefs are quite different.

Its a figure of speech. Like taking your atheist cap off. As for you and dades differing in belief. I'm sure your views on society etc differ, but obviously we are talking about your atheism. And isn't atheism not just the non-belief in a deity? I wasn't aware of any dogma's up for debate within atheism?

JimiTime · 10-04-2008 11:56pm

Dades wrote: »

But seriously, I will entertain any possibility, including a designer. Deism? Sure - why not?!
But when people start giving said designer characteristics - thats when I draw the line. Especially if the story (in my view ) is simply bananas!

As I said, i think it all strips down to, 'Do I believe that we have been created or not?' Once that is truly satisfied in oneself, its where you go from there. If you are wholly satisfied with your atheistic answer, then i don't think bombarding you with bible quotes will do anything. It'll be either a personal epiphany, or an intevention. IMO.

I happen to think it's a shame the term Intelligent Design has been spoiled by those that, well, aren't.

If I've understood you correctly, I have to agree. But the truth is out there for all who take the time;)

Dades · 11-04-2008 12:06am

JimiTime wrote: »

As I said, i think it all strips down to, 'Do I believe that we have been created or not?' Once that is truly satisfied in oneself, its where you go from there. If you are wholly satisfied with your atheistic answer, then i don't think bombarding you with bible quotes will do anything. It'll be either a personal epiphany, or an intevention. IMO.

Atheism isn't an answer itself - it's a rejection of religious answers. It's pretty unsatisfying in fact! But then a true belief is not always the most comfortable one.

As for who or what did the universe spring from? Answers on a postcard please... the one thing I know is that nobody knows.

kelly1 · 11-04-2008 9:45am

Dades wrote: »

Noel - my issue is neither of these...

My issue (which I thought was obvious) was that bible provides a completely nonsensical description of how an entity responsible for the entire universe in all it's unbelievable complexity would interact with us.

How is the complexity of the universe relevant? I'm sure it's child's play to God. If you haven't done so already, can you please state how you see God's interaction with us as nonsensical?

Dades wrote: »

Nothing else but this. Not sin, not free will. Just the concept of the builder of the universe communicating his great message to us through a Jewish carpenter in the middle east.

Why do you have difficulty with this? Would you expect something a bit more showy or dramatic and powerful? Maybe you just can't understand how the Creator of the universe could be humble?

robindch wrote: »

Why would the creator of the universe made a deal with himself to send himself to an unimportant part of small planet in a primitive age, so that he could get himself nailed to a tree so that he could pay off a debt that he had incurred to himself as a result of some faulty design work that he'd carried out some years earlier.

At no level whatsoever does this weird, weird deal make sense.

Sorry but this is just so cynical. God did not incur the debt, we did! Despite the fact that we incurred the debt, God still worked to pay it off. I fully realize that no human would do this but God's not petty and selfish like us.

There is no fault in our design. Would you rather be an automaton who had no ability to make choices?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.

It's a free get out of jail card and you're complaining!!!

kelly1 · 11-04-2008 9:48am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

But he created sin so how does he feel about it?

You really should know better than to respond with this. It's just downright silly and misrepresentative. God did not create sin. Would God create sin know that He would have to send His Son to die to atone for it? That's ridiculous. God gave us free will and we continually abuse it.

Zombrex · 11-04-2008 9:49am

Dades wrote: »

Atheism isn't an answer itself - it's a rejection of religious answers. It's pretty unsatisfying in fact!

Amen to that.

People don't turn to atheism in the way the religious turn to their religion to provide "answers"

It is through the rejection of the religious answers (which aren't answers at all) that people largely end up atheists.

Where we created by an intelligence? - No, most likely not
Is the universe controlled by some intelligent agent with purpose - No, most likely not
Do humans seem to have an evolutionary instinct to process the universe using the above two assertions as a framework - Yes, it seems so
Would this lead to some humans having difficulty imagining a universe where those two assertions don't on some level apply - Yes, it seems so.
Would this difficulty lead to some humans asserting supernatural agents of control simply because they cannot imagine a universe where agents of control don't exist - Yes, it seems so.
Does this explain, in humanistic fashion, why some people are religious and have a very hard time imagining not being religious - Yes, to me it does

Zombrex · 11-04-2008 9:52am

kelly1 wrote: »

God did not create sin. Would God create sin know that He would have to send His Son to die to atone for it? That's ridiculous.

God did create sin (no Adam did not create sin, Adam wasn't a god and lacked the ability to create any moral framework. Adam was created by God), and yes that is ridiculous.

Zombrex · 11-04-2008 10:00am

kelly1 wrote: »

How is the complexity of the universe relevant? I'm sure it's child's play to God. If you haven't done so already, can you please state how you see God's interaction with us as nonsensical?

Think of it this way. You go see a cheap sci-fi movie. They have terrible terrible special effects. Clearly the movie had no budget. The fact that the special effects are so shoddy that it really makes the story non-sensical and unbelievable (why does everyone on the alien planet speak English? Why do the aliens look like rubber? Why can't the aliens go up stairs? Why does the alien planet look like a Californian car park).

You know the story is fictional because it is obviously a movie, but you also know that nothing like that would actually ever happen even if it was real.

The Bible is like that. It simply isn't believable in any modern sense. It is "low budget" religion, there are so many tells that it would really be like that if it was really true.

The people who wrote it were primitive and basically knew nothing about nothing. And their stories reflect that. It was written in a time when the middle east was basically the known world, when the Earth was basically it, when the Earth was assumed to be not that old, when recording of history was primitive and prone to error, when knowledge of science and the natural world (at least with the Hebrews) was very limited.

Do you think Christians get the problems people have with their religion?

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