Do you think Christians get the problems people have with their religion?

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

1. I don't think the bible is a pile of crap (at least I shouldn't) its a brilliant tool for bringing groups of people together who just won't think for them selves.

Now that IS insulting! I am perfectly capable of thinking for myself which is why I come here learning about evolution and such. I'm open to new ideas and I can think for myself, thanks very much.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

2. I have thought deep about my beliefs and they do fluctuate but the idea christianity being a part of that flux was left behind years ago its just too simple for me.

I can assure you there's nothing simple about Christianity. To live a truly Christian life is very demanding and requires major personal sacrifice. Or do you find the doctine too simple, not complex enough? Maybe Hinduism would suit you. That's complex!

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I used not think christianity was crap because I ignored the questions that knocked it down like a house of cards or I was asleep whatever.

You might think you've knocked it down but you've fooled yourself.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I long for a community like the church but that is not to be unfortunately. The idea of your god is depressing and if were true (which its not) is quite troubling to me.

How could the good news of the Gospel possibly be depressing? It great to know that we have been redeemed and that there's a place in Heaven for everyone who loves God.

redfacedbear

JimiTime wrote: »

It'll be either a personal epiphany, or an intevention.

Or most likely not at all

kelly1 wrote: »

It's a free get out of jail card and you're complaining!!!

For me there is a very big price for this 'free' get out of jail card.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

God did create sin (no Adam did not create sin, Adam wasn't a god and lacked the ability to create any moral framework. Adam was created by God), and yes that is ridiculous.

Sin is not something created, it's an action, thought etc. Adam sinned by disobeying God. How did God sin? He didn't!

Yes He made Adam capable of sinning because God had to give Adam free will. If God hadn't given Adam free will, God would be forcing His will upon Adam which is contrary to love and hence not something God would do.

Mena

kelly1 wrote: »

There is no fault in our design.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7340091.stm

Probably quoting you a little out of context but there you go.

Dades

My issue (which I thought was obvious) was that bible provides a completely nonsensical description of how an entity responsible for the entire universe in all it's unbelievable complexity would interact with us.

kelly1 wrote: »

How is the complexity of the universe relevant? I'm sure it's child's play to God. If you haven't done so already, can you please state how you see God's interaction with us as nonsensical?

Look, if you have to keep asking, it's pretty obvious you're not going to look behind the curtain.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Sin is not something created, it's an action, thought etc. Adam sinned by disobeying God. How did God sin? He didn't!

No one said God sinned. Sin is disobeying God. But God created the terms of sin and created Adam who has destined to sin. "Sin entered the world" as a direct result of God's actions.

kelly1 wrote: »

If God hadn't given Adam free will, God would be forcing His will upon Adam which is contrary to love and hence not something God would do.

God already was forcing his will upon Adam through the concept of sin and obedience in the first place. All God did was allow Adam the option to refuse and be punished (knowing he would refuse and would be punished). It is the same way society forces its will upon people through systems of laws and punishment.

If God truly loved his creation he would have created a universe where it was not necessary to obey God, and therefore disobeying God wouldn't be an issue

Dades

Wicknight wrote: »

If God truly loved his creation he would have created a universe where it was not necessary to obey God, and therefore disobeying God wouldn't be an issue

Isn't that kinda what happened?

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

How could the good news of the Gospel possibly be depressing? It great to know that we have been redeemed and that there's a place in Heaven for everyone who loves God.

It would depress me to believe that the universe was controlled by a deity with low self-esteem who's constantly seeking attention, with suicidal tendencies and multiple-personality disorder!

I'd prefer my gods to be, well, more god-like.

Zombrex

Dades wrote: »

Isn't that kinda what happened?

That is a good way of thinking about it.

Surely atheism makes God happy, not sad. Why would God be happy that we are so lost that we need to turn to him for help.

It is like my parents say, the best thing in the world is when I or my siblings, don't need them.

JimiTime

redfacedbear wrote: »

Or most likely not at all

Well i thought that was implied by the likelyhoods i gave:)

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

It would depress me to believe that the universe was controlled by a deity with low self-esteem who's constantly seeking attention, with suicidal tendencies and multiple-personality disorder!

I'd prefer my gods to be, well, more god-like.

It would depress me too! Thankfully our God isn't like that.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

It would depress me too! Thankfully our God isn't like that.

Well that is the way he appears.

You may say that once we have been "touched" (read indoctrinated) we won't believe that, but that in itself is rather troublesome. A deity that spends his time supernaturally convincing people that he is wonderful is in itself depressing.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

It would depress me too! Thankfully our God isn't like that.

It would seem that he is!

What's one suppose to make of a deity who seems to want to be loved so much that he's going to pitch me into a lake of fire to burn for all eternity if I don't do it of my own free choice? Not only is it classic low self-esteem, but it's completely nutty too.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Well that is the way he appears.

You may say that once we have been "touched" (read indoctrinated) we won't believe that, but that in itself is rather troublesome. A deity that spends his time supernaturally convincing people that he is wonderful is in itself depressing.

Very few people have experienced tangible contact with God. Personally speaking, there have certainly been times when I have felt loved by Jesus and have reciprocated. Most people never get beyond a good feeling I think e.g. interior locutions, apparitions etc.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Very few people have experienced tangible contact with God. Personally speaking, there have certainly been times when I have felt loved by Jesus and have reciprocated. Most people never get beyond a good feeling I think e.g. interior locutions, apparitions etc.

Ok I assumed it was a little more than that.

You are basing your faith on a "good feeling"?

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

You really should know better than to respond with this. It's just downright silly and misrepresentative. God did not create sin. Would God create sin know that He would have to send His Son to die to atone for it? That's ridiculous. God gave us free will and we continually abuse it.

So he isn't all powerful? Is that what you're saying? He lost control over us? What is sin anyway? It is impossible to misrepresent an all powerful being.

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Ok I assumed it was a little more than that.

You are basing your faith on a "good feeling"?

Do you take me for a complete fool?? I said nothing of the sort. Yes, you are confused.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

So he isn't all powerful? Is that what you're saying? He lost control over us? What is sin anyway? It is impossible to misrepresent an all powerful being.

Please, grow up.

CerebralCortex

Originally Posted by CerebralCortex
1. I don't think the bible is a pile of crap (at least I shouldn't) its a brilliant tool for bringing groups of people together who just won't think for them selves.

kelly1 wrote: »

Now that IS insulting! I am perfectly capable of thinking for myself which is why I come here learning about evolution and such. I'm open to new ideas and I can think for myself, thanks very much.

In my defense I wasn't aiming that at you Noel sorry.
Many people I know in this lovely wee island of ours don't think for themselves and never question what they've been told to believe, I asked my 43 year old uncle why he goes to mass if he wasn't sure what he believed he couldn't answer that has been echoed through out the society I grew up in. I honestly believe if people thought for themselves in this country we would have a very different landscape religiously, politically etc. I know for certain the Catholic church as it exists here today would be very different.


Originally Posted by CerebralCortex
2. I have thought deep about my beliefs and they do fluctuate but the idea christianity being a part of that flux was left behind years ago its just too simple for me.

kelly1 wrote: »

I can assure you there's nothing simple about Christianity. To live a truly Christian life is very demanding and requires major personal sacrifice. Or do you find the doctine too simple, not complex enough? Maybe Hinduism would suit you. That's complex!

The premise of the belief is pretty simple. Hinduism and Christianity are much of a muchness. I'm also very surprised to see such spitefulness in your response. To me Christianity is very simple: you invest(or not) in a deity he gives you eternal life/death even though you might not want either (then again I'm not afraid of oblivion).

Originally Posted by CerebralCortex View Post
I used not think christianity was crap because I ignored the questions that knocked it down like a house of cards or I was asleep whatever.

kelly1 wrote: »

You might think you've knocked it down but you've fooled yourself.

How exactly have I fooled myself? Maybe you're fooling yourself, possibly thought yourself into a belief, again not a response what I would expect from someone so pious especially when I wasn't taking a dig at you.

Originally Posted by CerebralCortex
I long for a community like the church but that is not to be unfortunately. The idea of your god is depressing and if were true (which its not) is quite troubling to me.

kelly1 wrote: »

How could the good news of the Gospel possibly be depressing? It great to know that we have been redeemed and that there's a place in Heaven for everyone who loves God.

Because its pure fantasy and a human construct created by large groups of people who can't admit that they don't what the universe is about.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you take me for a complete fool?? I said nothing of the sort. Yes, you are confused.

Please, grow up.

The offense christian. Possibly an oxymoron?

kelly

kelly wrote:

Would God create sin know that He would have to send His Son to die to atone for it? That's ridiculous.

Well, if god is supposed to be omniscient...
That's the question that keeps coming up.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Do you take me for a complete fool??

Given that it seems nearly impossible to get a proper answer from you as to why you actually believe any of the stuff you believe Kelly I'm not sure what you make of you.

If I had to guess I would imagine that you believed before you thought critically too much about it, rather than the other way around, and afterward retroactively applied what you thought were good arguments to your belief.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

It would depress me too! Thankfully our God isn't like that.

out of interest, noel, can you understand why I would think from the description of god in the bible, that god was similar to how I described?

kelly1

What have we achieved so far in this thread? Nothing except that people on both sides of the debate are becoming more irritated and frustrated. I've made my arguments as best I can. There is no perfect argument that will convince anyone of God's existence.

Nobody can put God under a microscope and if this is what you're trying to do, you're taking the wrong approach. We have to approach God on His terms, not ours.

robindch

Hey, I'm not frustrated

CerebralCortex

I am a little frustrated.

Dades

I'm not so much frustrated as perplexed.

Usually I'm incredulous, but sure it's Friday.

PDN

stevejazzx wrote: »

Now look here chappy, I went positively out of my way to give you every indication that your 'are you a rapist' commnet was possibly the worst attempt of ensnaring someone I have ever seen - I coundn't have poured more sarcasm over my last comments in realtion to such. However it appears that you have disregared the fact that I obviously fortold your strategy and continued to deploy your punchline nontheless. Now, given the nature of your arguments to date this move shouldn't be too surprising but I have to say I am genuinely astonished that you seem to believe it all went to plan.

Now, did you say you were a preist or a politician? I only ask becasue of your remarkable ability to sidestep the real questions and battle those which aren't of any real significance.

In what way did I try to ensnare you? Do you think I had a cunning plan that depended on your answering a particular way?

You asked me a stupid question so I responded with another stupid question. However, if that is an issue for you then rant away.

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

out of interest, noel, can you understand why I would think from the description of god in the bible, that god was similar to how I described?

Yes I can understand to an extent but is it possible that your understanding is faulty, that you have the wrong end of the stick?

I think the problem basically stems from the effects of original sin. Before the fall of Adam, he was endowed with the preternatural gifts of infused knowledge, integrity and freedom from death and sickness. These were lost and because of this our intelligence and reason are corrupted in such a way that we don't conform to God's will as we should and we don't understand the ways of God. We have lost sight of God's way and tend to thing of God in a very limited human way.

If we still had these gifts, we wouldn't be having this debate.

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0509fea4sb2.asp (basic)
http://www.therealpresence.org/archives/God.htm (theological)

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

I've made my arguments as best I can.

Well you haven't really made any arguments Kelly, which is the route of my frustration.

Any time we get anywhere close to actually discussing why (as in the rational logic behind the belief) you actually believe any of the things you do we hit the brick wall of "faith"

You justify your faith not with any particular reason or argument, but with simply a circular link back to more faith.

Now this obviously working fine for you, but can you appreciate that it doesn't for us?

I've no idea what is happening in your head, but if you can't articulate an argument, any argument, for why you believe what you believe then I think you should be having a long cold look at your own beliefs.

It is not even that your arguments for believing in God are bad or flawed.

Its that at the root of it you don't seem to actually have any arguments or reason for believing in God in the first place.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes I can understand to an extent but is it possible that your understanding is faulty, that you have the wrong end of the stick?...

..These were lost and because of this our intelligence and reason are corrupted in such a way that we don't conform to God's will as we should and we don't understand the ways of God...

Yes. It is very confusing how a being whose power is so vast can't rid us of the corruption while at the same time give us free will, and he could do this he is not bound by any rules and if he is bound by rules he is not all powerful.