Do you think Christians get the problems people have with their religion?

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

These were lost and because of this our intelligence and reason are corrupted in such a way that we don't conform to God's will as we should and we don't understand the ways of God.

The flaw with that theory Kelly is that if that is true then how have you actually determined it is true?

The claim that we don't understand the ways of God is only ever used in response to criticism of God is given. We criticize God because we, in our limited experience, cannot possible understand God.

Strangely enough you guys seem to have no trouble understand the ways of God when you are telling us all about how wonderful he is. We claim to understand God enough to determine first of all that he exists, and also that he is as described, and also that he is good and perfect and moral and just.

Surely it works both ways?

kelly1

Wicknight wrote: »

Well you haven't really made any arguments Kelly, which is the route of my frustration.

Any time we get anywhere close to actually discussing why (as in the rational logic behind the belief) you actually believe any of the things you do we hit the brick wall of "faith"

You justify your faith not with any particular reason or argument, but with simply a circular link back to more faith.

Now this obviously working fine for you, but can you appreciate that it doesn't for us?

I've no idea what is happening in your head, but if you can't articulate an argument, any argument, for why you believe what you believe then I think you should be having a long cold look at your own beliefs.

It is not even that your arguments for believing in God are bad or flawed.

Its that at the root of it you don't seem to actually have any arguments or reason for believing in God in the first place.

Well I'm terribly sorry but it's not a bridge that can be crossed with rational argument alone. I keep telling you that faith is a gift from God. I can't offer you any proof and even if God spoke to me now, it still wouldn't be proof. It would convince me but probably not many others.

I have lots of reasons which suggest God's existence but no proof. I believe in miracles and I've spoken to people who've experienced them. I find the writings of the saints very inspirational and uplifting and I find everything about Jesus amazing. I find His sense authority, intelligence, compassion, His teachings etc goes straight to my heart and it just rings totally true. I'm quite happy to place all my trust in Him and I want to avoid becoming world-weary and cynical.

And the end of the day, if it turns out I'm wrong, I'll at least I can say that I've improved as a person by following Christ's teachings (which often go against our natural inclinations). I have nothing to lose. If I'm right, I have everything to gain.

What do you gain from atheism and what good is it to you when you're dead whether you're right or wrong?

Dades

kelly1 wrote: »

What do you gain from atheism and what good is it to you when you're dead whether you're right or wrong?

The fact that you even asked those two questions says a lot about the rationale behind your beliefs.

Zombrex

kelly1 wrote: »

Well I'm terribly sorry but it's not a bridge that can be crossed with rational argument alone. I keep telling you that faith is a gift from God. I can't offer you any proof and even if God spoke to me now, it still wouldn't be proof. It would convince me but probably not many others.

Perhaps you could start by explaining the rational reason you believe or accept what you just told me.

How have you determined that "its not a bridge that can be crossed with rational argument alone"

How have you determined that "faith is a gift from God"

kelly1 wrote: »

I have lots of reasons which suggest God's existence but no proof.

I'm not asking for proof, I'm asking for the reasons.

kelly1 wrote: »

I believe in miracles

Why?

kelly1 wrote: »

and I've spoken to people who've experienced them.

And why do you believe them over others who have experienced miracles based around other religions?

kelly1 wrote: »

I find the writings of the saints very inspirational and uplifting and I find everything about Jesus amazing.

Why is that a reason to accept what he says as true. Surely you find other non-Christian religious writing inspirational that you don't accept at face value.

kelly1 wrote: »

What do you gain from atheism and what good is it to you when you're dead whether you're right or wrong?

Well nothing, but then I don't think my purpose is to find things that are good to me when I'm dead.

I'm far more concerned about while I'm living. To me what is true and real is more important than what is comforting.

Splendour

Wicknight wrote: »

But what does that actually mean, you were "touched" by God. How would what ever that was make you accept the genocide in the Bible?

And do you agree that if someone read the Old Testament, without this "touched by God" action that makes everything clear, they would be justified in being horrified and put off by what they were reading?

That question is important because part of my issue is that I'm constantly being told by Christians (both on boards.ie and in the Real World) that I should give the Bible "a chance", and approach it with an open mind.

I was touched by God in a way that is difficult to explain. Without sounding too clichéd it's a bit like falling in love with someone-it's difficult to resist and although you may not understand everything about that person, you can't help how you feel...

And yes, I totally agree that there are parts of the old testament that are horrific for believers, never mind unbelievers!! Think about it though,if there was at plot at some stage by the church to 'make up' the bible then surely they'd have omitted these grisly parts of the old testament to get more people on board!


I for one think from reading your posts, that you have given the bible 'a chance' and approached it with an open mind. Christianity is not all about reading and understanding the bible it is about a relationship with God. If you were to seriously consider Christianity and have so many problems with the bible, then my advice would be to forget reading it and instead just communicate with God. I, being female, had serious problems with some of Paul's writings when I first delved into the bible, but now I see Pauls writings in a different light. Brain washing? If you knew me and my life you would say definitely NO! (FYI we have women preachers in the church I attend, in fact, I gave a short sermon myself a couple of years back)

Something else perhaps..?

Ekancone

Splendour wrote: »

Think about it though,if there was at plot at some stage by the church to 'make up' the bible then surely they'd have omitted these grisly parts of the old testament to get more people on board!

Or perhaps the ancient church included them to coerce a very superstitious people into following their god.

pH

daithifleming wrote: »

Or perhaps the ancient church included them to coerce a very superstitious people into following their god.

When the bible was first put together, printing (and therefore access by the masses was over a thousand years away). Access to it was far more controlled than it is now.

One of the main claims for Christ is that he fulfils a prophecy as a Jewish messiah, so there wasn't any real option to throw away the OT.

Fanny Cradock

daithifleming wrote: »

Or perhaps the ancient church included them to coerce a very superstitious people into following their god.

Or perhaps they knew that you knew that they knew...

CerebralCortex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Or perhaps they knew that you knew that they knew...

Wha!?!

Fanny Cradock

Just trying to highlight how quickly all this could degenerate into pointless second guessing.

Splendour

daithifleming wrote: »

Or perhaps the ancient church included them to coerce a very superstitious people into following their god.

True the old testament scholars were into their laws and regulations and perhaps even superstitions... 'cept that the new testament is almost the antithesis of this so why add in the new testament?

Ekancone

Splendour wrote: »

True the old testament scholars were into their laws and regulations and perhaps even superstitions... 'cept that the new testament is almost the antithesis of this so why add in the new testament?

Because Jesus kept blowing on about it. If it wasnt for that i'd say many christians would happily ditch OT.

stevejazzx

PDN wrote: »

In what way did I try to ensnare you? Do you think I had a cunning plan that depended on your answering a particular way?

You asked me a stupid question so I responded with another stupid question. However, if that is an issue for you then rant away.

:rolleyes:hmmmm


Hey PDN do you believe that at some point in history God punished people for the way they behaved?

Do you believe that he intervened in the lives of men, do you think he still does?

Do you think there is a contradiction with an all loving, all forgiving God killing people who have displeased him?

Do you think that a God who interacts with his creation jeopardises the process of free will - which I think you said you believe exists?

Do you think the bible is the word of God? If so do you think it's accurate? How much symbolism/meatphor is there in it and what are the rules for seperating the these from the actual reality?

Splendour

daithifleming wrote: »

Because Jesus kept blowing on about it. If it wasnt for that i'd say many christians would happily ditch OT.

The old and new testament are very much interlinked even though the message appears somewhat different.

A lot of the OT is a foretelling of what was to happen and the NT records the fullfillment of these prophesies. So we can't have one without the other.

Ekancone

Yes you can, just listen to what Jesus was actually saying and you might be alright.

Love one another, turn the other cheek, help the needy, belief should be private, organised religion is bad, etc. Its all a good message. No need for the rest of the nastiness.

Zombrex

Splendour wrote: »

I was touched by God in a way that is difficult to explain. Without sounding too clichéd it's a bit like falling in love with someone-it's difficult to resist and although you may not understand everything about that person, you can't help how you feel...

You apparently understood it enough to make the judgement that it was "God" (the Christian God described in the Bible) that you were touched by.

Splendour wrote: »

Think about it though,if there was at plot at some stage by the church to 'make up' the bible then surely they'd have omitted these grisly parts of the old testament to get more people on board!

They would have if that had been the purpose of the Old Testament. But I think a more obvious purpose was to justify to the current and future generations of Hebrews the warmongering actions of the Israelites who attacked and took lands from other neighbouring civilisations.

The excuse was basically "God told us to because they were wicked", which unfortunately has been used as an excuse many times since then as well. Its as they say, the victors write the history.

Splendour wrote: »

If you were to seriously consider Christianity and have so many problems with the bible, then my advice would be to forget reading it and instead just communicate with God.

If that worked I wouldn't be having this conversation. I would be recording with a pen and paper what God was telling me. And I would be asking him Fermat's last theory.

Splendour wrote: »

Something else perhaps..?

No, probably brain washing. I don't mean to be rude, but consider this happens in all other religions and cults I'm not really seeing any reason to believe that you or your religion are vastly different.

Zillah

kelly1 wrote: »

What do you gain from atheism and what good is it to you when you're dead whether you're right or wrong?

It doesn't matter.



At least when considering whether we're right or not.

Zombrex

Zillah wrote: »

It doesn't matter.



At least when considering whether we're right or not.

Not only does it not matter but a person should always question more answer they arrive at that appear to offer them something better than the alternative.