"Legal advice" in work and jobs/consumer isues/ mobiles and PDAs

Doctor DooM

Spin off from another thread.

In the legal forum, threads containing free legal advice are banned and the people involved banned/ infracted/ etc. If I understand correctly, this is because the OP may use the legal advice given, and if it is incorrect, it may fall back on boards.

Recently one thread was closed which contained the usual kind of stuff found in the work and jobs forum, about probationary periods etc. Advice on this is given freely.

I frequent the Consumer Issues and the Mobiles forum and similarly, advice is given out freely there. I can think of one or two posters who occasionally give very poor or just plain wrong advice on a few occasions.

Is there a reason the other fora are immune to the no legal advice rule? Is the advice in them not of a significantly dangerous level, or something?

Just something I was thinking about.

Sherifu

Some links?

Doctor DooM

Here you go: Will post as I find.

Here's the thread that got me to thinking:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055264065

Someone asking for something which could be construed as legal advice in the work and jobs forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055270008

Someone asking directly about their rights in the consumer issues forum:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055258976

Although resolved by the OP, here is an example of someone asking about the validity of a guarantee:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055268385

An example of completely incorrect advice which could have ended up costing the OP money:http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=54875581&postcount=20

flywheel

i've moved many relevant threads from PDAs / Mobiles to the Consumer Issues forum

if you spot any that have been missed use the report system to alert the mods

thank you

Dub13

This is taken from the Consumer Issues Charter

Nobody here is an expert but together we should be able to give advice or at least point you in the right direction.Any advice given on this forum is just that advice,some Consumer situation's require legal advice so don't take it from a Internet forum.

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

OP, worth bearing in mind that Consumer Issues wouldn't be much use if people couldn't ask about their rights.

Something i'm a unsure on: when does offering advice on say a consumer issue and a person's rights switch over to offering legal advice?

Sangre

there is also the fact the forum is enitled 'legal discussion' makes it much more likely someone would rely on the legal advice (to his detrminent) as true

Doctor DooM

Roundtower2 wrote: »

OP, worth bearing in mind that Consumer Issues wouldn't be much use if people couldn't ask about their rights.

Something i'm a unsure on: when does offering advice on say a consumer issue and a person's rights switch over to offering legal advice?

Thats my point right there, only I took a very long winded way to get to it!

I'm just a wondering if this'd get boards in trouble or not? Personally, I like giving out advice based on my experiences in retail, and as a manager.

EDIT:

Nobody here is an expert but together we should be able to give advice or at least point you in the right direction.Any advice given on this forum is just that advice,some Consumer situation's require legal advice so don't take it from a Internet forum.

Covers what I am saying I think.

nesf

I've no problem with someone saying X is your rights as detailed here: Y. It's not legal advice per se, it's information in the public domain.

Someone saying, I think you've a case for unfair dismissal and should sue is different to someone saying that these are the grounds for unfair dismissal and what you describe seems to fit them.

My understanding of the division isn't very in depth (I'm not a legal person) but as far as I know people discussing rights doesn't constitute giving legal advice. That thread on Work/Jobs is fine so long as people either link to relevant parts of citzensinformation.ie or similar, or talk about personal experience. It's only if people start advising people that they should take legal action that it gets messy.

I also think that there is a difference between someone asking that question in Work/Jobs and Legal Discussion. In the former it could be construed as "hey you guys, any of you been in this situation?", in the latter it clearly is "hey legal people, do I have a case?".

I could be drawing a false distinction though.

seamus

Afair, the main difference is to do with assumptions.

The name of the legal discussion forum creates an impression that if you ask a question there, you will receive legally correct or legally-based answers and discussion of your problem.
It could be successfully argued that even if a response doesn't say that they're giving legal advice, the name of the forum created an expectation to the poster that by default the answers they would get, would be legal advice.

You can't say the same for other forums, unless a poster says, "This is advice from a legal professional;". In which case, we would ask that the moderator remove that post.

Doctor DooM

nesf wrote: »

Someone saying, I think you've a case for unfair dismissal and should sue is different to someone saying that these are the grounds for unfair dismissal and what you describe seems to fit them.

My understanding of the division isn't very in depth (I'm not a legal person) but as far as I know people discussing rights doesn't constitute giving legal advice. That thread on Work/Jobs is fine so long as people either link to relevant parts of citzensinformation.ie or similar, or talk about personal experience. It's only if people start advising people that they should take legal action that it gets messy.

Purely for curiousity, does this ever happen in work or jobs, where someone shouts "sue their asses!"? And if so, how would it be dealt with?

seamus

SDooM wrote: »

Purely for curiousity, does this ever happen in work or jobs, where someone shouts "sue their asses!"? And if so, how would it be dealt with?

I'm not sure it's that big a deal. Hulla should be able to explain it, but I think the law is pretty black-and-white on this;

If I'm talking to someone and tell them that I think they should remove a joist from the roof of their house, resulting in the roof subsequently collapsing, they have no legal recourse to sue me for my advice.

However, if I tell someone I'm a structural engineer and that they're fine to remove the joist, again resulting in collapse, then I could be bent over a barrel.

Of course, the person would have to prove that I said I was a structural engineer or that I otherwise led them to believe I was qualified to give the advice that I did.

Sangre

pretty much, it isn't reasonable for someone to rely on advice given on an internet forum called 'consumer issues' as 100% truth. it might be different if it was a 'legal' forum. especially with qualified lawyers for mods. regarding advice from mobiles/pdas any reasonable man would double check it first (on their own or with a solicitor)

faceman

i think there was a thread on this recently? I remember making a comment and Hulla explaining his reasons, which to be fair, made sense.

Doctor DooM

I get it now- because it's a legal forum for legal posters (that sounds a bit league of gentlemen) what is said there may be considered to have more weight than in other forums.

nesf

SDooM wrote: »

Purely for curiousity, does this ever happen in work or jobs, where someone shouts "sue their asses!"? And if so, how would it be dealt with?

Yes and I edit the post and ask them to phrase it differently generally. It's more for the sake of the OP than the sake of boards really. I don't think anyone could construe it reasonably as being legal advice, I'm more worried about some poor soul thinking it is good advice and "standing up to their employer".

Doctor DooM

faceman wrote: »

i think there was a thread on this recently? I remember making a comment and Hulla explaining his reasons, which to be fair, made sense.

I think I read that thread, it's what started me thinking on this. He said something along the lines of boards being in an akward position if someone based their defense on something silly said here. I shall try and dig it up.

nesf wrote: »

Yes and I edit the post and ask them to phrase it differently generally. It's more for the sake of the OP than the sake of boards really. I don't think anyone could construe it reasonably as being legal advice, I'm more worried about some poor soul thinking it is good advice and "standing up to their employer".

This was kinda what I was worried about in one of the examples mentioned above. A poster would have been done for a years line rental if he did what was advised. good to know there is a Moddy response to it

nesf

SDooM wrote: »

This was kinda what I was worried about in one of the examples mentioned above. A poster would have been done for a years line rental if he did what was advised. good to know there is a Moddy response to it

The best example that comes up a fair bit is someone being overpaid. It is the employer's fault but they are entitled to come looking for it and getting it back off of you. The prevailing wisdom is to have a chat with HR and work out some kind of repayment plan over a few months (depending on how much of an overpayment went on and for how long it etc). You could construe it as legal advice if you twisted it out of context but in reality it's just a fairly common occurrence where people can give answers based on experience that can help the person involved stop it becoming a real mess. Most of the "legal questions" that come up in Work/Jobs are basic stuff like "am I entitled to get a payslip showing deductions etc". The simply answer is yes, they are. It's not really legal advice, it's just people discussing employee rights. This kind of stuff isn't complicated or technical, the answers are available in the public domain on many websites and those are the "sources" of the advice really.

The issue where legal advice comes up is where someone might ask about whether they've a case for unfair dismissal or similar. In that case, a mod either locks it or just reminds them that they can't get legal advice here and at best the answers they'll get will have all the "weight" as from what they'll get down the pub by asking the same question (which is preferable really compared to locking the thread). The problems arise when people think they are getting sound legal advice, the job for us is to remind them that the only place they can get that is from a legal professional and that anonymous people online aren't a good substitute. It's more analogous to "fool proofing" than protecting the site really.

Maximilian

I think the distinction is that many of the questions asked on these other fora are more matters of fact than matters of law, although there is a fine line sometimes. I personally believe that to safeguard Boards.ie from any future potential legal action, any such legal questions i.e. those seeking legal advice for specific circumstances should be prohibited. So if someone asks if they have an unfair dismissal case for example, it should be closed immediately.

999 times out of 1000 there's probably no harm in it. Its just that 1000th time that could prove very costly.

Also, I think the argument that people take advice on the Legal Forum "more seriously" is a red herring. If a person relies on advice, acts on it to his detriment and suffers loss or damage, there is potentially a claim, regardless of the forum. Now you can make all the arguments you like about how it shouldn't be Boards' fault and that could indeed turn out to be the case but as any lawyer will tell you, the standard practice is to sue everybody - cast the net far and wide.

nesf

Maximilian wrote: »

999 times out of 1000 there's probably no harm in it. Its just that 1000th time that could prove very costly.

Also, I think the argument that people take advice on the Legal Forum "more seriously" is a red herring. If a person relies on advice, acts on it to his detriment and suffers loss or damage, there is potentially a claim, regardless of the forum. Now you can make all the arguments you like about how it shouldn't be Boards' fault and that could indeed turn out to be the case but as any lawyer will tell you, the standard practice is to sue everybody - cast the net far and wide.

I appreciate where you are coming from but a line has to be drawn somewhere or we simply stop anyone giving anyone else any advice on anything. I think the line we draw on Work/Jobs is reasonable. It is not legally informed at all and I don't have any illusions that my arguments for why it is reasonable would necessarily stand up in court (I am ignorant of the law in this area) but unless the admins get a legal person to liaise with us and advise us on what to do it's the best I can offer really.

Maximilian

Well that's the thing isn't it? You risk chucking the baby out with the bath water if you take a very hard, strict line on everything. I mean lets face it, a massive portion of the posts to Boards are looking for advice of some kind or other. Some kind of balance is needed.

I'd certainly be happy to help out on these fora or give opinions on suspect threads to whoever asks. I'm sure the other legal mods would too.

Sangre

legal liability aside, there is the point that someone would actually be less likely to rely on advice on a 'consumer issues' forum so and so less likely to act to his detriment and take action against boards.