diesel?? what the hell has happened to the price

DublinWriter

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

2. We have some of the lowest tax rates in the developed world.

Complete BS.

We're paying nearly 80% Excise Duty and 21% VAT on a litre for road diesel.

Where are these low taxes you speak of?

r3nu4l

JHMEG wrote: »

Do you have Lidl (or Aldi) in Cambridge?

We do but I was making the point that both diesel and vegetable oil are more expensive over here than in Ireland and that the price quoted for veg oil in the UK was either wrong or from a more expensive store

Diesel has been more expensive than petrol in the UK for a long, long time now and both petrol and diesel are more expensive than in Ireland. So while we have lower vehicle registration rates we pay for it through the nose at the pumps!! Governments get you either way, the sooner we realise that the better

maidhc

DublinWriter wrote: »

Complete BS.

We're paying nearly 80% Excise Duty and 21% VAT on a litre for road diesel.

Where are these low taxes you speak of?

Well aside for the US and oil rich nations our taxes on fuel aren't too bad.

Futhermore there is more to taxation than fuel!

Wishbone Ash

DublinWriter wrote: »

Where are these low taxes you speak of?

Would you prefer lower excise duty and raise the upper income tax rates back up to 48% and 65%?

Our fuel prices are among the lowest in Europe. The monthly Truck/Haulage magazines publish the prices each month and we are always near the bottom.

chris85

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

Would you prefer lower excise duty and raise the upper income tax rates back up to 48% and 65%?

Our fuel prices are among the lowest in Europe. The monthly Truck/Haulage magazines publish the prices each month and we are always near the bottom.

That was the point i was making but you put it much clearer. We are one of the cheapest in the EU and we also have more money than many countries in the EU.

vibe666

I'd just like to point out that anyone who reads this and just throws 50 litres of veg oil in their diesel without doing LOTS of research first is quite likely to end up with a large repair bill.

a very large percentage of post 1997 cars won't run properly long term on veg oil, and a lot of them won't run at all.

running on a veg oil blend is much better suited to older vehicles, but still requires lots of research before you start.

my best advice is READ READ READ before you do anything and be 100% sure you know as much about running your particular vehicle on veg oil as it's possible to know.

The same goes for bio-diesel too. as has been said, most manufacturers have published information on bio-diesel blends they deem safe for use in their vehicles. these are labelled with either the letter E or B followed by a number which corresponds to a percentage of bio-diesel mixed with regular diesel, e.g. B30 or E30 is 30% bio, 70% petroleum diesel etc.

plenty of old cars (but again, not all) will run happily for the rest of their natural lives on 100% bio-diesel but others wouldn't make it off the forecourt. I use 100% bio-diesel in my 1996 Pajero and have done so for the past month without any problems, but don't take that as gospel that someone elses 96 Paj will work too without checking into it in a lot of detail first.

in my many trips to fill up at my local BD supplier I've talked to him about the stuff and he had a friend with a new 5 series BMW who maintained that his motor would run fine on 100% BD and got him to fill it to the brim. unfortunately the engine management system disagreed with him and shut the car down before he got to the end of the street and they had to drain the tank and flush everything out to get it running again.

on the other end of the scale, I've talked to someone who ran his knackered old 89 diesel astra on 100% SVO for many years without anything more than a cursory oil/filter change.

so, just make sure you read everything you can find on the subject and check out the many bio-diesel and svo/wvo forums out there before you do anything your wallet might live to regret.

JHMEG

HJL wrote: »

How sure are you of this?

No mention in legislation, well none that I can find.

I did mention in a previous post about veg oil in the UK.

@r3nu4l, you might just price a litre of veg oil in Lidl over there and let us know. It's 69c here.

ivanthehunter

Aldi at 69 cent....
Will the tax man be after me in an old 205 xrad:rolleyes:

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Similarly in this country biodiesel is duty exempt, only incurring VAT. Veg oil is unregulated afaik, and you don't need to pay any duty.

No, the legislation in Ireland is worded so that specific classes of vehicles must burn fuel that is duty paid. Biodiesel is not duty exempt as such (or at least it wasn't up to recently), there is just a derogation for certain official suppliers.

D3UC3 J3

The prices are controlled by the petrol companies.

Govt make an acceptable level of tax from it (in the comparative to any other good / service sense ).

Petrol stations make little more than a few percent (some are licensees for the petrol companies and some are petrol company owned and run though).

The rest is the petrol company.

Times are hard in the industry and the market in ireland is relitively small (Irelands fuel market is the same size as the market of the Birmingham greater area in the uk), big players are getting out of the market because it so tight here at the moment (Statoil & Chevron Texaco) and only one person will pay for it, the consumer.

What do you expect in an oligopoly with a similar product?

JHMEG

maidhc wrote: »

Biodiesel is not duty exempt as such (or at least it wasn't up to recently), there is just a derogation for certain official suppliers.

Thanks for clearing that up maidhc (even tho it means the same thing in the end!;))

Veg oil, being a food, is not legislated for as a fuel, afaik?

maidhc

JHMEG wrote: »

Veg oil, being a food, is not legislated for as a fuel, afaik?

unfortunately not if it goes in the tank and burns it is a fuel:

Per the Finance Act 1999:

“mineral oil” means hydrocarbon oil, liquefied petroleum gas, substitute fuel and additives;

and it is an offence to:

(b) to use as a propellant, to sell or deliver for such use or keep in a fuel tank—


(i) any mineral oil on which mineral oil tax at the appropriate standard rate has not been paid,


(ii) any mineral oil containing one or more markers prescribed by regulations under section 104 , or


(iii) any substance where the importation of mineral oil containing such substance is prohibited by regulation made under section 104 ,

Gonkster

FAO the OP, diesel now costs more due to a new refining process to comply with new "green standards"- reducing sulphur content etc. That and a few other issues....

http://www.petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html

I'm actually buying a (nearly new) fiat panda diesel shortly, it's only 2 years old yet it's actually going to be cheaper to buy and run than my old banger...crazy world isn't it?
I normally used to simply buy an old car and drive it until it broke then went and got another cheap banger. My old car is costing me €600 a month to drive the 60 odd miles into work each day. The panda will cost me €180 a month to buy and €200 per month for fuel on the same mileage!

Our fixation with the "petrodollar" and the yanks behaviour at the moment is having quite a large knock-on effect worldwide.

You'd think that market demand would have resulted in a car that ran on something other than petrol or diesel by now....

JHMEG

Gonkster wrote: »

http://www.petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html

That link isn't working for me...

Gonkster

Hmm the link works fine for me, try copy/pasting it.
stick www in front of this- petrolprices.com/why-diesel-costs-more-than-petrol.html

JHMEG

It's working now thanks. Their server must have been down or something.

Supercell

The main crux of that link though seems to be the increased duty on diesel in the UK which is the reverse here.
I think we are simply being ripped off as this disparity only went for a few cents either way to 10+ cents after the "green" tax changes were announced.

JHMEG

Supercell wrote: »

The main crux of that link though seems to be the increased duty on diesel in the UK which is the reverse here.
I think we are simply being ripped off as this disparity only went for a few cents either way to 10+ cents after the "green" tax changes were announced.

Haven't had a chance to read it yet, but saw mention of tax on diesel, which has always been higher in the UK than on petrol. For years diesel has been more expensive there, by maybe 1-2p.

E92

Diesel deserves to be dearer. Every litre of diesel burned pollutes 13% more CO2 than every litre of petrol, and that's before we get to all the other pollutants that diesel is still not as good as petrol is.

E92

E92 wrote: »

Diesel deserves to be dearer. Every litre of diesel burned pollutes 13% more CO2 than every litre of petrol, and that's before we get to all the other pollutants that diesel is still not as good as petrol is.

Not according to this:

http://www.ace.mmu.ac.uk/Resources/Fact_Sheets/Key_Stage_4/Air_Pollution/26.html

petrol cars with catalysts still produce more CO and HC than diesel cars, although exhaust emissions of NOx and particulates are much lower than diesel cars. In fact particulate emissions from petrol cars are so low that they are not routinely measured.


Despite much debate over which car, petrol or diesel, is cleaner, weighing up the advantages and disadvantages is not easy. For example, diesel cars have been promoted, as they produce less CO and HC on average when compared to petrol cars, and they have greater fuel economy producing less CO2 per km. However recent health concerns about particulate matter have given diesels a less environmentally-friendly image, as have the higher emissions of nitrogen oxides compared with petrol cars. As a comparison, petrol cars produce virtually no particulate matter, take longer to warm up, produce more carbon dioxide per mile on average, and emissions of the regulated pollutants are higher.

Bee

E92 wrote: »

Diesel deserves to be dearer. Every litre of diesel burned pollutes 13% more CO2 than every litre of petrol, and that's before we get to all the other pollutants that diesel is still not as good as petrol is.

On the contrary, diesel is more fuel eficient and provides more miles per gallon than petrol the opposite is true.

First, petrol-engined cars emit more carbon dioxide than diesels.

Secondly, diesels emit higher NOx emissions than petrol engines. NOx gases have a more immediate effect on humans, leading to breathing difficulties and other bronchial effects. Consideration of the ill-effects of the various gases emitted is further complicated by the fact that uptake of particulate matter in the lung depends critically on the size of the particulate matter inhaled.

Petrol engines produce much smaller particulates than diesel engines that become lodged in the lungs at a deeper level due to their smaller size than the particulate produced by diesels. Diesel particulates PM10's much worse for inhalation from petrol is a known carcinogen (Benzene) and the Petrol particulates are PM2.5 and they lodge much deeper into the lungs

Just enjoy what you drive and ignore the global warming junkies both fuels have their merits as well as their engines but for real world performence
in many ways diesel engines are now outgunning petrols

Take a boring bread and butter 1.6L Ford Focus the mid range torque of the 1.6 diesel variant allows a more relaxed driving style with less gear changes, higher fuel economy and it accelerates better throught the importent overtaking mid ranges,e. the 30 - 50 7 50 to 70 etc true the very top end performence of the petrol running flat out is a little faster but I am talking about the real world use of the car on Irish roads.

and then add in particulate filters, which should be mandatory in my opinion, and ultra low sulphur diesel and practically carbon neutral biodiesel both of which emit less particulates than regular diesel.
If you start to use vegetable oils, biodiesel and diesel with low enough sulphur content then nox traps can be added to exhaust systems. Sulphur in the fuels is what is holding back exhaust technologies for diesels atm.

E92

Bee wrote: »

On the contrary, diesel is more fuel eficient and provides more miles per gallon than petrol the opposite is true.

.....

Take a boring bread and butter 1.6L Ford Focus the mid range torque of the 1.6 diesel variant allows a more relaxed driving style with less gear changes, higher fuel economy and it accelerates better throught the importent overtaking mid ranges,e. the 30 - 50 7 50 to 70 etc true the very top end performence of the petrol running flat out is a little faster but I am talking about the real world use of the car on Irish roads.

A diesel that does 50 mpg pollutes as much CO2 into the atmosphere as a petrol that does 44.2 mpg.

1 litre of petrol produces 2.4 kg of CO2. 1 litre of diesel produces 2.7 kg of CO2.

So why based on this information should petrol be taxed more if we're as upset about the planet as we're all supposed to be? And 2 people have commented about the ill effects to our health of diesel engines, but don't forget that the Particulates and Nitrous Oxide have a very bad impact on local air quality as well, so the air we breathe isn't as clean and nice as it should be.

As for performance well yes the torque at low revs is fantastic.......if you're lazy and have a phobia of using the gearbox;)! When the manufacturers designed these things they didn't put gears in gearboxes for the good of their health:)! Rev a petrol hard, drop a gear or 2 and then tell me that they're slower than a diesel!

In saying that I don't have a problem with the way a diesel drives, but they are no faster than a petrol of similar power. You just have to drive the engines completely differently. Petrols need plenty of revs and letting the rev counter go up towards the redline but they will reward you for your labour!

maidhc

E92 wrote: »

A diesel that does 50 mpg pollutes as much CO2 into the atmosphere as a petrol that does 44.2 mpg.

1 litre of petrol produces 2.4 kg of CO2. 1 litre of diesel produces 2.7 kg of CO2.

So why based on this information should petrol be taxed more if we're as upset about the planet as we're all supposed to be? And 2 people have commented about the ill effects to our health of diesel engines, but don't forget that the Particulates and Nitrous Oxide have a very bad impact on local air quality as well, so the air we breathe isn't as clean and nice as it should be.

As for performance well yes the torque at low revs is fantastic.......if you're lazy and have a phobia of using the gearbox;)! When the manufacturers designed these things they didn't put gears in gearboxes for the good of their health:)! Rev a petrol hard, drop a gear or 2 and then tell me that they're slower than a diesel!

In saying that I don't have a problem with the way a diesel drives, but they are no faster than a petrol of similar power. You just have to drive the engines completely differently. Petrols need plenty of revs and letting the rev counter go up towards the redline but they will reward you for your labour!

Please don't. The above is your view, but not necessarily correct.

I have an issue with saying diesel emits more co2 per litre burned. That is correct, but very skewed. We measure the co2 by miles driven, as that is the decisive factor.

JHMEG

Bee wrote: »

Take a boring bread and butter 1.6L Ford Focus the mid range torque of the 1.6 diesel variant allows a more relaxed driving style with less gear changes, higher fuel economy and it accelerates better throught the importent overtaking mid ranges,e. the 30 - 50 7 50 to 70 etc true the very top end performence of the petrol running flat out is a little faster but I am talking about the real world use of the car on Irish roads.

The old Irish roads card, which isn't really true, otherwise there'd be no point in buying a Porsche or a Ferarri or even a 335 in this country. If you are honest, you can actually enjoy a performance car in this country.. even it if it's just pulling off from the toll booth on the M4.

Anyway, I can see this turning into another petrol vs diesel thread which I'm not interested in. The rising price of diesel does interest me tho.

you could still enjoy it but you would get far better value for your money if you had autobahns nearby

E92

If I have a 1.4 Honda Civic that does 47.9 mpg and has a CO2 rating of 139 g/km then why should I be paying more for my fuel than someone who has an Audi A4 2.0 TDI which in spite of doing 51.4 mpg manages to pollute 144 g/km, or 5 g/km more even though it's 3.5 mpg thriftier?(let's not get into a discussion about my comparison or the rest of the cars themselves)

How can anyone justify making the A4 cheaper to run than the Honda, in the interests of reducing our carbon footprint?

It should cost me less to run the Honda in terms of fuel because my carbon footprint is lower and I'm not polluting my locality and other people as much either.

Cionád

E92, just curious, would you be in favour in having the price of fuel directly related to the co2 emissions/particulates etc? For example someone driving a Hummer might pay 4 euro a litre, where as that Civic would get it for 80 cents?

80 cent fuel would be nice :eek::)

And in the process also abolish Motor Tax

E92

I would be in favour taxing the polluter i.e. tax the fuel, not the car. With petrol being at least 13% cheaper owing to it's better environmental characteristics. If your car pollutes twice as much as mine then you pay twice as much as I do, simple as.

I'm not into all this CO2/environmental nonsense but that is my solution for our supposed environmental woes, which is the most obvious and therefore never going to see the light of day. We do need to cut down on car usage, we use cars to go to a shop 2 minutes up the road ffs! I'd always walk that, but I know people who don't! We'd have less traffic, so we could get to where we want to go to faster, and what car enthusiast doesn't like going faster:p?

I certainly favour the new VRT system no end to the old one, it's based on something scientific and will finally get rid of the stupid notion about how bad a bigger engine is in terms of running costs.

It should mean that there will be more demand for faster diesels, I prefer petrol to diesel, but more bhp is more bhp whether it's petrol or diesel, and everyone in this country goes for the most underpowered petrol at the moment so that will be a big improvement:p!

100% behind you on taxing the fuel
this new VRT ignores older cars while building new cars creates massive amounts of pollution
not to mention freeing up Garda and court resources from tax collection