Spinning classes as a benefit to triathlon.....

gabgab

Hi guys,

I am looking to try and better my pace for sprint triathlons, as part of my overall fitness regime,

I can do the distances for swim run and bike, but am going to start spinning, the classes are 40 minutes long, and then I was thinking of incorporating some running in afterwards, either on a treadmill or outdoors when it gets a bit warmer, as the gym is 2k from my house I could jog down as a warm up,

Then do the 5ks after my spin session on the treadmill or mapmout a course back to my house,

Are there any downfalls to this, as I read alot and am unsure as to whether this is beneficail for what I want to do,

Any advice greatly appreciated,

Genghis

The session idea you have of 2km warm-up, 40 min spin and 5km run looks like a really useful training session.

However, bear in mind that Spinning is of benefit to triathlon, only if:

- You join an advanced class - many spinning classes, especially in gyms, cater only for beginners / recreational gym-goers. You need to make the session intense to work, and for that you are going to need an instructor who's willing to push the class.

- You spin as well as (not instead of) getting out on the bike. Specifically, you need to be doing some long cycles outside, 2-3 hour sessions and tempo / faster shorter rides.

- You remember that spinning can help with power, but is not really going to improve endurance or speed (thats why I suggest the above sessions).

So by all means go spinning, but don't regard it as a total substitute for real cycling.

gabgab

I find the classes intense and work on pushing myself in each one,

Will be organising some long spins but 2/3 hours? seems like alot of time if we will only be racing 20ks but I dont know enough about it, just curious to the thinking behind it??

Thanks Genghis,

Phil01

i agree on a 2km warm up to the gym followed by spinning and 5km run. This will help u alot, especially for duathlons if you participate in them. I would also agree Genghis on some points. Spinning classes are great for winter months but now its coming into summer and we have the long evenings, so you really should be out on the bike. You will get speed out of spinning classes, it will all be high candence on the bike.
But you should really be thinking about cycling outside this time of year. Get the miles on the legs. Its better to get use to our door conditions because you need to test yourself against the wind and cold conditions, it will be helpful come race day.

tunney

IMHO spinning is not useful for triathlon training.

Triathlon is an aerobic sport, spinning is generally a series of short sharp anerobic efforts. While interval training is important for triathlon bike training, the hardest efforts are generally in or around function threshold power and the interval duration will be a minimum of three minutes. Usually longer 4-10 minutes at least. Remember the aim of the bike leg is to maintain the highest possible power you can for the entire duration of the bike leg. There are no sudden changes in pace, no huge efforts.

Besides the reasons above, now is the time to be pulling out your race bike and getting used to the position.

The reason for the longer cycles than race difference is the physiological changes required to improve cycling can't be made with short cycles. Again the aerobic energy systems take a long time to train.

tunney

You won't get speed from a spinning class

Spinning classes will make you good at spinning classes.

gabgab

Cheers Tunney,

So should I be then training at a steady pace for the duration plus extra distance that I am planning to race??

Example: Running 7ks at a steady pace for the 5k run part of the race? at 70% or 80% of my maximum heartrate,

Cheers,

tunney

I've no idea of what training you have done, what level you are at, and where your strengths and weaknesses are.

Colm_OReilly

Hi,

A friend pointed me towards this thread. A couple of questions if I may?

function threshold power

I don't understand what's meant by this term.

There are no sudden changes in pace, no huge efforts.

I can see how ideally that may be the case, but are there not chases, pushes to the transition zone, hills etc that need to be overcome in the bike section. A triathlete who has a comparitively weaker run/slower transition will want to make more ground on his rivals on the bike for example. Hence the necessity of changing pace.

Also there's the adrenaline factor which can contribute to sprinting out of the blocks. It would make sense to train while hypoxic to prepare for this circumstance. Obviously the triathlete should have a degree of mental preparation and strategy in place to minimise this as well.

The reason for the longer cycles than race difference is the physiological changes required to improve cycling can't be made with short cycles. Again the aerobic energy systems take a long time to train.

To what physiological adaptations are you refering to?

Aerobic capacity - VO2Max - is not that different between 10K runners and marathon runners. Plus aerobic capacity is the quickest of the physiological adaptations according to Kilgore et al.

Extended aerobic training leads to a cathartic effect, whereby the body begins to break down.

Anaerobic training increases power, endurance, and stamina in both the anaerobic and aerobic pathways, and this is well documented. Most notably by the Tabata protocol.

Brian McKenzie of Genetic Potential and Mike Collins of Multi Sports Orange County use anaerobic workouts predominantly to train their athletes in triathlons and other ultra endurance sports.

Intensity is the variable most commonly correlated with favourable adaptation, and intensity is equal to power, how heavy, how far, how quickly.

Curious to hear your thoughts on this?

Thanks,
Colm

gabgab

fair point,

Well I can cover the distances, can do 5 ks in 30 minutes at a very comfortable pace,

Can swim 30 lenths, 750 metres in around 22 minutes, at a steady steady pace, with no kicks off the wall or breaks as I know this is an unfair break etc, not that swimming in the pool is fair :D. Feel like I could do another 20 on top of that but until I pick up the pace to see I will say that is where my swimming is,

I can do 22ks in just under an hour, with a big range of uphill parts and that was in a very windy night in the lashings of rain,

I plan on doing a test to see what I can do the individual parts in flat out to see where I need to be, is that of any use??

gabgab

Cheers for that Colm,

I am lost now, I dont know what is the way to go now,

Might try a mix of both??

Anybody tried that before??

tunney

Colm_OReilly wrote:

I can see how ideally that may be the case, but are there not chases, pushes to the transition zone, hills etc that need to be overcome in the bike section. A triathlete who has a comparitively weaker run/slower transition will want to make more ground on his rivals on the bike for example. Hence the necessity of changing pace.

Also there's the adrenaline factor which can contribute to sprinting out of the blocks. It would make sense to train while hypoxic to prepare for this circumstance. Obviously the triathlete should have a degree of mental preparation and strategy in place to minimise this as well.

Firstly I was referring to draft illegal racing. Draft legal racing is a different game altogether. In draft illegal racing there are no chases, its an individual time trial. No pushes, no attacks on hills, hills by their nature will require more power to get up them but the effort throughout should be constant. A triathlete should know the absolute limit that they can bike to and still run well off the bike, and race at that. If they push harder to gain on a rival on the bike they will pay the price on the run.

As for sprinting out of the block, this is one of the huge mistakes people make in draft legal races, the general idea is not to. Hit that pace you can maintain from the start.

Functional thresold power is the maximum power that you can maintain for an hour. Training levels are then based off this - from active recovery (less than 55% FTP to Anaerobic Capacity (greater than 120%).

Anaerobic training increases power, endurance, and stamina in both the anaerobic and aerobic pathways, and this is well documented. Most notably by the Tabata protocol.

Tabata intervals. Yip, I've read about them but not tried them. They may well work. Good discussion on them on http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=14754&st=0

Extended aerobic training leads to a cathartic effect, whereby the body begins to break down.

I'm not suggesting aerobic efforts only. Strength work, greater than threshold work and aerobic work in the right parts. The key thing being that whatever you are doing it is specific. I know I do plenty of greater than threshold work, that being said its not to the tabata levels 120-140% FTP would be all but that is the approach my training is taking.

As for the training effects the ones I would be talking about that require greater than 20km cycles to build on would be muscle capillarisation, plasma volume, and basic efficency both mechanical and energy systems.

There are many ways to skin a cat and there are many ways to get race ready. Periodisation, reverse periodisation, the approaches you describe.

I've no experience of the anaerobic approaches you describe nor do I know anyone that has used them. I'm sure that there are proper procedures and protocols to following them and that its not just an ad hoc "train as hard as you can" approach. This would be my concern that someone would read about "using anaerobic workouts predominantly to train" and then over race and over train themselves into the ground. I know a number of former higher end triathletes who are no longer forces to be reckoned with because they trained almost exclusively at anerobic or close to levels and now are para-sympathically overtrained.

Phil01

tunney wrote: »

IMHO spinning is not useful for triathlon training.

I have to disagree with that, spinning classes are great for winter training.

tunney wrote: »

There are no sudden changes in pace, no huge efforts.

Maybe i dont understand what your trying to say here, but of course there are changes of pace and huge efforts, don't u not cycle your balls off for and then take a 2 min rest, then cycle like hell again, plus you have factors such as hills and winds which change your pace.

tunney wrote: »

The reason for the longer cycles than race difference is the physiological changes required to improve cycling can't be made with short cycles. Again the aerobic energy systems take a long time to train.

Totally agree with you here. I would disagree with some of the stuff you said just because gabgab is a beginner in triathlon i think spinning classes would be an exceptional help to him, sure a seasoned cyclist wouldn't get much benefit from spinning classes, but they are excellent and will introduce speed work. With no resistance and pedal like mad. My only grief with spinning classes is the time of the year, i think they are more suited to winter rather than this time of the year.

tunney wrote: »

Firstly I was referring to draft illegal racing. Draft legal racing is a different game altogether. In draft illegal racing there are no chases, its an individual time trial. No pushes, no attacks on hills, hills by their nature will require more power to get up them but the effort throughout should be constant. A triathlete should know the absolute limit that they can bike to and still run well off the bike, and race at that. If they push harder to gain on a rival on the bike they will pay the price on the run.

Why do you mention drafting races, there are none in Ireland, the only one i can think of is the Elites in Athlone.

As turnney is saying above gabgab don't overtrain. Take a rest day too. You trianing can't always be hard. You should typically have 1 hard week, and 1 easy week. This is the only way your body will improve, if you go out and do too much you won't improve.

gabgab

Hey lads thanks a million for all the information, I am gonna have to try and put this all together because I want to use these 5 months to get a better, by my standards anywya, base fitness.........

I think I will keep using the spin classes as whilst they may not perfect, I find them great for pushing myself alot harder than I would out on a bike myself,

Here is what I am looking at doing:

Monday: Weights 40 minutes, deadlifts, pull and chinups, pressups etc, then 20 min Swim
Tuesday: Spinning for 40 minutes with a run afterwards, either on a treadmill or back home
Wednesday: Weights and swim, same set up as monday
Thursday: Spinning and run, same set up as tuesday
Friday off
Saturday or Sunday: 8krun, or 30km cycle at steady steady pace,

I have a heart rate monitor, would doing one week at a certain rate for the lighter, and then a week harder be of benefit, eg: 70%/75% for the lighter week and then 80%83% be the way to do the alternating weeks??

I will also drop down the weight lifted and increase the rest periods between sets on the lighter weeks,

Thanks again everyone,

hunnymonster

I'm not an expert but I know when I swim after weights my stroke is awful because of tired arm and back muscles. Fine if you're only swimming to relax after the lifting session but not so good as swim training. Also don't forget to factor in time to get into open water at some stage.

gabgab

Hey Hunny,

Thanks a million, and cheers cos last year you kept me focused on it and encouraged me to just go out and do it regardless of the times

I will be looking to get into open water stuff in a few weeks when it is warmer, so I have some stuff done for my first one in Athy. Will look at getting a few of us together and going down maybe in Dunaloghaire or something,

Thanks,

Canis Lupus

What about squats to hit the legs more directly?

tunney

Phil01 wrote:

I have to disagree with that, spinning classes are great for winter training.

Emmm why? Why is high intensity stuff useful in what is traditionally the base building phase?

Phil01 wrote:

Maybe i dont understand what your trying to say here, but of course there are changes of pace and huge efforts, don't u not cycle your balls off for and then take a 2 min rest, then cycle like hell again, plus you have factors such as hills and winds which change your pace.

Hills and wind should change your speed not your power output. This works both ways. Descents and tailwinds don't mean recovery, you still work on them to the same percevied effort/power.

Phil01 wrote:

Why do you mention drafting races, there are none in Ireland, the only one i can think of is the Elites in Athlone.

Why do I mention drafting racing? Because everything I have said is completely wrong when talking about drafting races.

gabgab wrote:

Here is what I am looking at doing:

Monday: Weights 40 minutes, deadlifts, pull and chinups, pressups etc, then 20 min Swim
Tuesday: Spinning for 40 minutes with a run afterwards, either on a treadmill or back home
Wednesday: Weights and swim, same set up as monday
Thursday: Spinning and run, same set up as tuesday
Friday off
Saturday or Sunday: 8krun, or 30km cycle at steady steady pace,

Firstly its very light on all three disciplines.

Two runs, 2 swims, 2 spins, 1 cycle or run at the weekend, 2 gyms.

Gym work is important but it has its place, mainly in the winter:)
Also why are you doing this specific weights routine. Barring the deadlifts there isn't anything relevant to triathlon? I'd bring at least one of the weights sessions back down to 20 min and increase the swim after/before it to 40 minutes.

I would change your weekend to be 10km run saturday, 40-50km cycle on sunday at a consistant easy-steady pace.

That being said I'm not a coach, hunny monster is

gabgab

Ok yeh I had the squat recommendation made to me by a friend the other day too, makes sense,

Thanks for all the advice Tunney,

To explain the weights I am also looking to stay in shape upper bodywise, I respect triathlons and the work needed but they are part of an overall plan to get me into better shape long term,

Weights are there to try and give me some shape, while I want to do these triathlons and train for the next 5 months I also want to hold onto some shape,

I know it is a mis-match in terms of what should ideally be done but I am just looking to have a nice balance,

Do you guys reckon heart rate monitors or those training zones are beneficial?

tunney

Fair enough. Although you will find triathlon does shape your body without the weights, once you start swimming lots.

Heart rate zones? Yip use them, very useful. As long as they are worked out from your threshold HR and not your maximum HR. If they are just guessed they are useless.

hunnymonster

HRM's are very useful for all sorts of reasons. I'm not entirely sure what you're doing with the zones you mentioned. I understand the reasoning of mixing hard and easier weeks but as you get into it more, you should start to think in terms of hard and easier sessions in the same week as well. For example in the run up to a long triathlon, my run programme of a given week would be something like

long run: 2-3 hours HR<148
tempo run 60-90 min HR <160
speed session <1 hour, HR varying but never over 183
run as part of brick 30 min <148
The values for me come from Maffetone methods.

Then every 4th week I would reduce the volume (but not necessarily intensity) of training to give my body a break.

That said, My advice to newbies still always stays: get out there and enjoy triathlon for a year or two. Swim a bit, run a bit, bike a lot goes a long way to having fun, meeting people, getting fit. There is enough time to get serious (and anal like so many triathletes) down the line.

gabgab

How would I work out my threshold rate then??

Thanks,

hunnymonster

tunney wrote: »

Fair enough. Although you will find triathlon does shape your body without the weights, once you start swimming lots.

oohhh yeah! with a man at home who has gone from swimming <10km a week to >50km a week, I can only agree. The change in back, shoulder, arm shape is amazing.;) It's tough being the partner of a channel swimmer but someone has got to do it!

gabgab

Excellent advice Hunney,

Do you mind me asking why you put more emphasis on the bike part of it??

That is really what I want to do, is go out, do them, have some craic and banter and see how it goes,

hunnymonster

In the races I do the distances are
swim 3.8km
bike 180 km
run 42.2 km
The bike is the longest both in distance and in time so deserves the most training.

Even in a shorter distance
1.5 km swim
40 km bike
10 km run
most people are going to take the longest to finish the bike.

It's also important to go over your target distance on the bike (e.g. I was going 220km cycles last year) because on race day you've got to run off the bike. You've got to be comfortable enough on the bike to have something left in the tank for the run. The brick sessions (e.g. bike followed by run) are also excellent for this but not always practical.

tunney

hunnymonster wrote:

My advice to newbies still always stays: get out there and enjoy triathlon for a year or two. Swim a bit, run a bit, bike a lot goes a long way to having fun, meeting people, getting fit. There is enough time to get serious (and anal like so many triathletes) down the line.

Would have to agree with this, enjoy it. Find a club or group of friends that makes the sport enjoyable and have fun. (Note some clubs will have the opposite effect on your enjoyment of the sport ) If you keep at it it will take over your life.

What I find at this time of year is that alot of people look at what faster people are doing and then try to replicate it, speed work, hard sessions fast stuff, high end stuff. What they don't realise or accept is that these people started their seasons in October/November with all the base and strength work and their bodies can take the hard fast stuff and adapt as they should.

gabgab

Ok thanks everyone, I reckon I will go out and figure out a structure to the training, eg which nights to do what and then take it from there, I think it is gonna be great craic for the summer and I will enjoy them,

I will do more than needed on the bike though as it does make sense to focus here abit more as I will spend alot of time on the bike and my run is slow..... :mad:

Phil01

Best of luck gabgab, remember don't overtrain, and try not to build up too much muscle with the weights as you will have to carry it up the hills on the bike. Keep your training steady, 1 easy week followed by 1 hard week. And most importantly have fun, also mix your training up so it doesn't become boring.

Colm_OReilly

Hi all,

Haven't been active on this thread for a day, so thanks for the responses and links.

Some questions and thoughts (aren't there always)

Functional thresold power is the maximum power that you can maintain for an hour.

So it's power? Cool. I'm presuming one hour is an arbitary figure? If so, then FTP is simply distance. As the mass and time element remain constant (your bodyweight doesn't change significantly and the time doesn't).

As for the training effects the ones I would be talking about that require greater than 20km cycles to build on would be muscle capillarisation, plasma volume, and basic efficency both mechanical and energy systems.

All can be developed (and the efficacy of their development is greater) through anaerobic methods without an unfavourable effect on aerobic capacity. The OP has stated that they can complete the distances, hence the aerobic capacity for sprint distance tris is established.

This would be my concern that someone would read about "using anaerobic workouts predominantly to train" and then over race and over train themselves into the ground.

Which can equally be accomplished through overtraining aerobic pathways.

As to high end athletes over training, competitive sport becomes unhealthy when winning takes precedence over fitness - as occurs in all sports.

Hills and wind should change your speed not your power output. This works both ways. Descents and tailwinds don't mean recovery, you still work on them to the same percevied effort/power.

As noted power = massxdistance/time, so environmental factors do change your power output. And perceived effort doesn't = power.

Thanks,
Colm

tunney

Colm_OReilly wrote:

So it's power? Cool. I'm presuming one hour is an arbitary figure? If so, then FTP is simply distance.

No its not an arbitrary figure. The maximum sustained power for one hour is a good approximiation of the max power at lactacte threshold.

Colm_OReilly wrote:

As noted power = massxdistance/time, so environmental factors do change your power output. And perceived effort doesn't = power.

No environmental factors do not change your power output, environmental factors may result in your speed increasing or decreasing for the same power.

I know that power doesn't equal perceived effort but not everyone can afford to, or wants to, splash 2-3k on a power meter.

Another way to look at power is torque*rpm, in fact in the cycling world this is the way power is viewed mostly.

Colm_OReilly

Again I'm curious

Power = mass x distance / time

In a race, the distance does not change, nor the mass - so speed changes equal power changes.

The errors arising in such a formula are so low and constant as to be within experimental tolerances.

I believe the confusion here is that energy expended is being equated to power output. Inefficient energy expenditure will not result in effective power output (think poor bike set up or ****ty bike, or poor running technique)

Secondly, my concern with power is that in optimising athletes performance. And for anything we do it must speak to measurable, observable and repeatable results.

We don't require power metres to calculate results of an exercise protocol. If the same task has been completed in less time, or with greater weight, or through a greater distance, or a combination, then the athlete has improved his fitness. It's then down to the efficiency of a protocol over the effectiveness.

But we're getting away from the topic of optimising gabgab's tri training here.

Phil01

Jes, you guys are really getting into the science of this. I'm doing an Ironman in 2 months and i'm not even talking about power output or mass and distance. I'm a believer in listening to what your body tells you. You spend too much time calculating times and distance that you probably miss alot of good workouts. Thats just me talking, im a believer in putting the miles on the legs and your cycling will improve. I have never been worried about my candence or times in the pool.
Each person has there own goals so they train differently. So you shouldn't follow other peoples training or try to match their times.

toombah

Hi Colm,

Have you ever competed in an endurance event?

tunney

Yes there is confusion but we won't hold it against you

Power isn't mass x distance over time.

Power is the rate of work. Power is measured in watts

Work is force by distance. Work is measured in joules.

The total work or joules burnt, assuming same conditions, will be the same for a 50 min 40km TTer as for a 1:30 min 40km TTer.

However the power exerted by the two riders during the TTs will be wildly different.

Again speed changes do not equal power changes.

hunnymonster

Phil good luck with the IM. Which one are you doing?



Colm, Tunney is right on this one.

thirtyfoot

Aside from all the formulae and mumbo jumbo, are there any elite endurance athletes (tri or track or bike) who use a massively reduced aerobic, higher anerobic training system? I have never heard of any but there may be. Theories and studies are great but if they aren't backed up by the hard evidence of faster times then whats the point in training in a 'newer' way.

Although not strictly endurance, Seb Coe (I keep referring to him) would have been regarded as an athlete who would have focuessed less on miles and more on quality and higher intensity. He still ran 50 miles a week and was a mere middle distance athlete and definetly didn't go near tabata style session yet he is regarded as a benchmark for following a more speed, less miles programme if you are a 'speed' distance runner.

If successful training and coaching was solely derived by formulae and science and studies then someone like Stephen Hawkings would be the daddy of all coaches and someone like Arthur Lydiard would have been shearing sheep in NZ and would never have coached multiple Olympic champions. Science and theory married with experience, intuition and athlete adaptation are the best way I'd say.

tunney

tingle wrote:

Science and theory married with experience, intuition and athlete adaptation

I don't often agree with you Tingle but here I do

Phil01

hunnymonster wrote: »

Phil good luck with the IM. Which one are you doing?

Thanks Hunneymonster, im in Ironman France in June.

hunnymonster

I'm entered in it too but now not doing it. Flights and hotel are booked so I think I'll be coming over to support.

Phil01

I've yet to book a place to stay!!! Kinda late i know. I didnt book flights yet either... I know im going to be pushing my luck but im going to do it the week. I'm doing Lisbon Half Iron too, so its an expensive game.

tunney

philip brophy or philip moloney?

What time you aiming for in lisbon?

Should be a good race, doing it myself.

Phil01

can't say... can't give away my identity lol