Reloading UPDATE

Sikamick

Please note, following communications with the Countryside Alliance, I have been advised that Countryside Alliance, Mid-Lands/NRAI , SSAI and other bodies involved in target shooting are compiling a document re Reloading and its format and introduction, when compiled this document will be put forward to the DOJ for their approval.


:) And I know I misspelled the Title. To err is to be human.

Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club

It wasn't me!

Excellent news, good to hear further progress.

johngalway

Wonder will it benefit all shooters or just target shooters?

foxshooter243

johngalway wrote: »

Wonder will it benefit all shooters or just target shooters?

+ 1 on that question john

It wasn't me!

To be honest, it's reloading, and only fullbore target shooters would be interested in reloading, and smallbore seems a much bigger group, so I have to say, there's no need for the cynicism there lads. Target shooters won't profit from this anywhere near as much as everyone else. Reloading is reloading for everyone; you're not going to see legislation to allow reloading for 6mm BR and .32 S&W only, rest assured. The cynicism is just harmful, and utterly unfounded.

bunny shooter

It wasn't me! wrote: »

........and only fullbore target shooters would be interested in reloading.............

Not really. And such statements are unhelpful. Any fullbore shooter may want to develop more accurate and consistant ammo to suit their particular rifle.

To single out target shooters may seem like setting up an elitist scenario.

chem

Yea there was alot of panic there for abit:D

My take on the whole slow down on the reloading law, was because new explosive laws are in the pipe line, due out next year. So maybe the DoJ just wanted to run over it awhile longer to make sure reloading did not overlap or contradict some of the new explosives laws.

Am i giving the DoJ to much credit on this one:D

Gunter Mauser

Don't get your knickers in a twist. The representatives of the sport are
not going to let you down;) on this one, rest assured, just lie back and
let them at it.:)

Sikamick

johngalway wrote: »

Wonder will it benefit all shooters or just target shooters?

_________________________________________________________________

John the Irish Deer Society have a rep on the FCP.

I would say it will be anyone who can give a just reason for wanting to reload i.e. The Deer Stalker, Fox shooter, Target shooter, have I left anyone out.

Lads it is time people started to get behind the our reps on the FCP and not keep knocking every thing they put forward.
_________________________________________________________________________________
I BETTER apologise here for the wording of my first posting re reloading UPDATE, all of the people that are on the FCP with an interest in reloading are involved in compiling the document.
_________________________________________________________________________________

Sethur

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Don't get your knickers in a twist. The representatives of the sport are
not going to let you down;) on this one, rest assured, just lie back and
let them at it.:)

Hmmmmm do you attend the girlyy shoots, stockings and suspenders

Sparks

bunny shooter wrote: »

To single out target shooters may seem like setting up an elitist scenario.

*sigh*
Y'know, I sat down and thought about it. Between hunters who look down on those who go to driven shoots as toffs, and shooters who look at formal target shooters as fancy-pants eejits, and fullbore shooters who look down on smallbore "kiddie gun" shooters who in turn look down on "not real firearms" airgun shooters, and of course the ISSF elitist snobs in the middle of it all - and I'm not even looking towards the shotgun side of the house yet - well, does anyone else here think that we seem to be a community where every single sub-group is more busy looking down on other groups than they are at their own discipline?

johngalway

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

John the Irish Deer Society have a rep on the FCP.

I would say it will be anyone who can give a just reason for wanting to reload i.e. The Deer Stalker, Fox shooter, Target shooter, have I left anyone out.

Lads it is time people started to get behind the our reps on the FCP and not keep knocking every thing they put forward.

Cheers Mick

That's all I was asking, there was no cynicism involved. It was a perfectly reasonable question to ask. Fox and Deer shooters have just as much interest in reloading as Target shooters do More power to ye if ye get it through

All the best,

John

Edited to add this; I wasn't looking down on anyone, I was asking for everyone to be included.

It wasn't me!

bunny shooter wrote: »

Not really. And such statements are unhelpful. Any fullbore shooter may want to develop more accurate and consistant ammo to suit their particular rifle.

To single out target shooters may seem like setting up an elitist scenario.

You mistook my meaning; I meant of the target shooting lobby, only those shooting fullbore would be interested, and those shooting fullbore target would be a small minority of those who'd profit from reloading I imagine.

Sikamick

johngalway wrote: »

Cheers Mick.

More power to ye if ye get it through

_________________________________________________________________

John I am not on any of the NGB'S and don't have any connection with the FCP other that through affiliation to NASR&PC. But I do thend to ask questions of any of the people I know on the FCP and pass the info on.

If the reloading does come in, the thanks should go to the people that sit on the FCP, Mid-Lands/NRAI, NGB'S,NARGC,Deer Society,Countryside Alliance,DOJ and yes even the GARDA.

Remember debate is the way to solve problems, jaw jaw is better than war war.

meathshooter

looking forward to reloading my own its a sport in itself

It wasn't me!

Yeah, I would consider getting something a little heftier were I allowed reload, maybe a .243. Couldn't afford it without reloading though. Sure I have trouble keeping myself in .22lr ammo as is.

Sparks

meathshooter wrote: »

looking forward to reloading my own its a sport in itself

Competitive reloading? "Right lads, first to 10,000fps wins!"

cavan shooter

A sako in 222 starting to look nicee:):)

Vegeta

cavan shooter wrote: »

A sako in 222 starting to look nicee:):)

Lapua don't make brass for this anymore unfortunately. Others do I think, cracking round though from what I've read and seen.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves though.

I believe everyone who is a member of those bodies on the FCP should contact them with counters to the points made in the ISD article Grizly 45 posted.

In the downtime at work today I will contact of them and make clear counters to the flawed logic put forward by the DoJ. At least that way I wont feel so powerless

Sikamick

If all of the users of this forum that have an interest in reloading for their particular sport were to post their explanation as to why they would like the option to reload, then the powers that be will see there are good and genuine reasons why it should be allowed. We need to keep this thread alive and active and prove our point as to why reloading is needed and is safe to do.

Please no crazy suggestions/questions like (I want to be able to reload when I am up my high seat) Believe it or not this was one of the crazy question that was asked.

I would hope the admin will stop and delete any silly/stupid questions in relation to reloading that may be posted by people that are trying to cause trouble and show a bad image of our sport.


Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club

It wasn't me!

Well, it ups the versatility of a given calibre, being that you can reload a variety of powder weights and bullet weights for different tasks, to do more jobs efficiently that otherwise would require multiple rifles, where now one can do more tasks with better results in all.

The cost aspect as well. Anything centrefire is very expensive to shoot, and I personally would definitely not be able to do it without reloading. I'm barely keeping myself in .22lr ammo, as I've said.

The main reasons, I think, are:
-Versatility in a single calibre
-Competitive performance
-Financial efficiency

Those would be my own motivations anyway.

Sethur

Sikamick wrote: »

If all of the users of this forum that have an interest in reloading for their particular sport were to post their explanation as to why they would like the option to reload, then the powers that be will see there are good and genuine reasons why it should be allowed. We need to keep this thread alive and active and prove our point as to why reloading is needed and is safe to do.

Please no crazy suggestions/questions like (I want to be able to reload when I am up my high seat) Believe it or not this was one of the crazy question that was asked.

I would hope the admin will stop and delete any silly/stupid questions in relation to reloading that may be posted by people that are trying to cause trouble and show a bad image of our sport.


Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club

+1 HERE HERE

foxshooter243

from an economic standpoint i think the gain is not in monetary value saved but in getting more shots/per euro spent, enabling all shooters
particulary our competitive shooters more practise thus allowing our sport to have a more even playing field in the european / world scene.

Accuracy being another gain , for all shooters as handloaded ammo like
a handmade suit is tailored better to the job in hand be it hunting or targets.no serious competitors in competition would use factory ammo if the means to hanload were available.

another aspect of reloading is the fun factor- reloading is a satisfying and enjoyable hobby, there is great pleasure in making and shooting your own personalised ammo-the same as the fisherman enjoys tying and fishing his own flies.

and from a green standpoint ,the re use of any thing in todays world must only be a good thing.

Vegeta

I will start by addressing the concerns by the DoJ

"Propellant is an explosive":
The article in the ISD repeats this statement more than once. I must point out that a propellant is a propellant. The above statement is not correct. Petrol or gasoline is also a propellant and can explode in certain circumstances but it is not an explosive so this must be taken into account. Incorrect definitions help no-one

Contradiction in the article:
The article states "(powder) can burn in the open unconfined but will explode if confined". It then says "There is a significant increased explosion risk with loose powder and caps as compared to assembled ammunition"
In the first sentence the article correctly states that loose powder will burn yet in the second sentence it states loose powder poses an increased explosion risk. A clear contradiction.
Now to be a bit pedantic, even when confined powder does not explode it burns very quickly releasing large volumes of gas. Different powders burn at different rates depending on their application, rifle, shotgun, pistol etc.

"High level of training and competence required":
I agree totally with this statement. Luckily there is a vast database of knowledge on the subject as it is a hobby within itself for some. It is practiced as close as the UK and Northern Ireland. There are countless dvds, books and online resources available to learn from. Hopefully the people currently reloading ammunition in Ireland will share their knowledge and further increase the knowledge pool. With all things firearms safety is paramount.

Storage:
The article highlights a concern about the handling and storage of powder etc. It would not be difficult in the slightest for us to adopt the storage and handling practices implemented in countries currently reloading. Their is nothing inherent to Ireland that makes handling and storage any more dangerous than Northern Ireland or the UK. This could be done relatively quickly and easily as countries such as England have a long history of firearms owners reloading, any guidelines set in place by the authorities and shooting governing bodies (BASC etc) could be followed here.

Over or under loading ammunition:
The article discuses the dangers of using too much or too little powder in a round. This is a valid concern but reloading manuals go out of their way to allow the user to build up a safe load. Specifying a minimum amount of powder and a max. The reloader is told to start at the lowest charge and work up. Also we have already discussed training and competence and its importance. This would highlight the dangers of incorrect reloading practices just in case they are stupid enough to ignore the reloading manuals.

Security Concerns:
The article also raises the issue of criminals using armour piercing rounds and increasing propellant loads. Criminals could be doing this at this very moment in time, I think this highly unlikely of course. Lets face it, which is more likely, a criminal buying a gun, a press, set of dies, measuring equipment, correct powder for firearm, brass, heads, primers, taking the time to work up a decent load or simply ordering whatever the hell he likes along with his next shipment of drugs and guns.
Identifying and tracing reloaded components at the scene of a crime is made easier by the very fact reloaded ammunition will have tool marks made by the press, dies and measuring equipment. So not only will a round (spent case) have marks from the firearm it will have tool markings from being reloaded. This is a positive not a negative.
Control of powder stocks which could be stolen or misused for improvised explosive devices. Criminals could be doing this now anyway, stealing powder from Northern Ireland or just pulling the heads off regular rounds and building up a pile of powder.

Criminals are exactly that, criminals, if the DoJ allow firearms owners to reload or not, they will still commit crime and break the law. It is very unfair to refuse permission to a large body of law abiding citizens based on what criminals might do.

"When they outlaw catapults, only outlaws will have catapults."

Mac Tire

Very well put....+1

Sandy22

Vegeta wrote: »

...
In the downtime at work today I will contact of them and make clear counters to the flawed logic put forward by the DoJ. At least that way I wont feel so powerless

Don't you mean powderless?


I'll get me coat.......

Gunter Mauser

Suggestion
If all of the users of this forum that have an interest in reloading for their particular sport were to post their explanation as to why they would like the option to reload, then the powers that be will see there are good and genuine reasons why it should be allowed. We need to keep this thread alive and active and prove our point as to why reloading is needed and is safe to do.

Please no crazy suggestions/questions like (I want to be able to reload when I am up my high seat) Believe it or not this was one of the crazy question that was asked.

I would hope the admin will stop and delete any silly/stupid questions in relation to reloading that may be posted by people that are trying to cause trouble and show a bad image of our sport.


Michael O'Connor
Secretary to Dublin Target Sports Club


We have pleanty of fine old cartridges that with a bit of tuning and tender care could pick themselves up and become modern contenders as good all rounders that could do it all very well. 7x57 mauser 6.5x55 swedish mauser. let them at it with a lighter vermin loading and they will give the 22-250
243 a run for the money:) pleanty of life in the old dog, just pass on the power to the re-loading press.

Sikamick

Vegeta at last we are on the right track.

Well said.

++1

johngalway

Sikamick wrote: »

If all of the users of this forum that have an interest in reloading for their particular sport were to post their explanation as to why they would like the option to reload, then the powers that be will see there are good and genuine reasons why it should be allowed. We need to keep this thread alive and active and prove our point as to why reloading is needed and is safe to do.

I'd like to reload for the same reason as most people will, to better the accuracy of my rifle. I shoot live animals and better accuracy is more humane and more fair on both the animal and shooter. There's no worse feeling in what I do in wounding something, it's happened to all of us who hunt or do pest control and it's a rotten feeling. All steps that can be taken to minimise this are very welcome indeed. For me, I don't see it as a way of shooting farther or taking riskier shots. I see it as being more effective in what I do and more effective shots do in the end of it all mean actually taking less shots.

It's also a bit about pride in what you do, like getting the best scope and rifle you can afford. Using a cartridge that's tailor made to shoot well in my rifle would enhance that feeling of pride in my entire set up. Basically doing things the best way you can.

chem

Vegeta wrote: »

Over or under loading ammunition:
The article discuses the dangers of using too much or too little powder in a round. This is a valid concern but reloading manuals go out of their way to allow the user to build up a safe load. Specifying a minimum amount of powder and a max. The reloader is told to start at the lowest charge and work up. Also we have already discussed training and competence and its importance. This would highlight the dangers of incorrect reloading practices just in case they are stupid enough to ignore the reloading manuals.

."

Did anyone ever see the myth busters when they tryed to make a rifle barrel banana peel? The tryed to see if a rifle with its barrel pluged, (as in bugs bunny) would open up like a banana.

They tried several firearms and different blockages inc a bar welded into place:eek: and notting much happened. If I remember right Cal ward showed a picture of a barrel, that had a bullet stick in it and another few shots fired down it. Again the damage was not as bad as you would expect.

Finger in a Barrel
Cartoon Myth: If you stick your finger in the barrel of a gun, the gun will explode. The shooter will be injured but you will be fine.

There was a great cartoon done for this myth that featured reinterpretations of Adam's "Am I missing an eyebrow?" quote and Jamie's "Quack, damn you" quote.

Setup
Shotgun with remote control trigger
Ballistics gel hand with a skeleton cast inside of it for rigidity. The hand was attached to Buster.
Ballistics gel bust for the shooter The bust was made from a cast of Grant.
Tory: "Coming up on MythBusters"
Kari: "Can we get Grant out of this mold?"

The Tests
Test 1 (gel hand): Buster's gel finger was stuck inside the shotgun barrel. The entire hand was blown apart with no damage to the shotgun.

Test 2 (wax hand): They used a stronger ballistic hand made of wax to plug the barrel. The wax hand was blown apart but the shotgun barrel was ballooned slightly.

At this point they declared the myth busted and moved on to trying to replicate the myth. They wanted to get a 'banana peel' result by firing the shotgun.

Test 3 (dirt): Tory stuffed the barrel of a shotgun with dirt. The end of the barrel peeled back slightly, but the shooter was fine.

Test 4 (Steel spike): They welded a steel spike into the barrel. The gun shot the spike out with only minor damage to the end of the barrel.

Test 5 (squib load): A squib load is a bullet that doesn't have enough gunpowder to exit the barrel. Jamie hammered a bullet into the end of the barrel. The end of the barrel bulged, but it didn't banana peel.

Not only was this myth busted, but MythBusters failed at even replicating the result of this myth.

mythbusted While it was cool that they ballooned the end of the barrel, it didn't explode, the hand was blown apart, and the shooter was safe.

Grizzly 45

Same reasons as most everyone here;

The ability to custom load shotgun shells to get proper and reliable functioning in a semi auto shotgun that demands a certain load that is no more commercially available. [Early Franchi being a prime example] Ditto for a old BP now nitro proved 410 shotgun.

The monetary aspect of mass reloading of shotgun and pistol shells for personal use.It is cheaper to reload if you want to stay in good practise with either pistol or shotgun.Somthing like 150 rounds per week is recommended.

The ability to get old and obscure calibre firearms functioning again.Only way to do this is by reloading. Where would you get ammo for an 10mm PIN fire Lefachaux revolver,except by handloading it.

The DIY aspect of knowing you have literally built a round suited to your firearm ,that is custom built for a specific task in that gun. IE a light load in a 243 for varmit hunting,or a heavy grain ,heavy bullet of your choice to drop a deer.

Finally the fun factor of doing this,wether reloading cartridges or an old BP Colt Army model.It is fun...

The security aspect. Most gifted bomb makers if one can call them that,
Can easily put together,black powder, nitro glycerine,gun cotton gelignite,or even TNT
From over the counter supplies in any chemical supply,chemist and DIY store in the land.Not to mind that there is still appx 100 metric TONS of Semtex still unaccounted for in the 32 counties somwhere"beyond use".

Some of this semtex has been used over the last couple of years in IEDs in both Dublin& Limerick. It would be more likely that any renegade bombmakers would be more inclined to make,use or have access to this illegal supply than going to the trouble of using a very traceable explosive material, or one that requires extreme caution in handling in an explosive device,and is very low powerd in comparison to the above mentioned.

Reloading AP rounds or ultra velocity rounds.
The laws of physics DO happily apply to the criminal class as well. Anyone hot loading a round,by putting as much powder into it as possible wether criminal or shooter runs the risk of blowing themselves or both themselves and gun up.
Armour piercing rounds.Commonly referred to as "black tips"[Due to the black painted tip to discriminate it from normal Ball ammo].Is available on the black markets in the EU and East block for small arms,as is tracer ammo.So again why would a criminal bother reloading this type of ammo,as one requires a special bullet for AP,or AP incendry,or AP explosive shells?? It would be more likely that any demand for such ammo will be sourced on the black market.

Storage
As been pointed out. The average garden shed has more explosive material in it than two kgs of propellant.Propellant cans are mostly made of plastic these days or have a plastic top to melt in a fire situation.Preventing an explosive situation occuring. recommended storage in the EU is in it's original containers,in a wooden shipping /cardboard box.
In a secure room,made of non combustible materials with no other enterance bar a secure lockable door made of steel or strong wood.
Under no circumstances should powder be stored in a metal safe,strong box etc.Due to the risk of static electric buildup,or that minute amounts of powder getting caught in the hinges,or frames and detonating by friction.
So IOW a broom closet size room with a secure door of steel or oak that is lockable is sufficent for storage in the EU ina high rise building of over 20 kgs of powder.It isnt beyond us surely to do the same here in Ireland??