Reloading UPDATE

foxshooter243

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

if anyone has any calibres that they wish some more info on then ill find out and post it "quote foxshooter243"

Foxshooter, when do you start to notice the difference between handloading and match ammo from the manufactures.

I believe as the distance to the target increases the more your handloads
start to impact on your score.....etc in effect giving you an edge over
your opponent, as most foreign visiting target shooters will bring handloads with them our lads here would be handicapped:mad:


Any more calibres? How about the weatherby .257 mag.Just for the crack
to see would it be a power guzzler or close enough to the 25-06.

According to the Hornady reloading manual the ,257 weatherby magnum
using a 120 grain bullet has a suggested starting load of 56.1 grains and a max load of 63.0 grains with vihtavuori n-165 at a max velocity of 3100 ft/sec.
The 25-06 using the same bullet has a starting load of 45.5 grains and a
max load of 54.4 grains of the vihtavuori n-165 at a max velocity 0f
3000 ft/sec .As vihtavuori powders come in kilos at approx 62£stg then divide your powder weight into 15400 grains to find the number of loads per kilo.
The difference in the quality of handloads v factory ammo becomes apparent quite quickly, however the premium ammo thats now being made
is of a very high quality and its generally reckoned in the US that some of the major competitions will be won with factory ammo if they havent been already, where handloaded ammo began to shine was back 20/30 years
when quality ammo wasnt available and the only way to make gains in the accuracy dept was with handloads, nowadays with premium grade ammo on the shelves [ in some places ] the gap has closed, but ammo using quality components can be handloaded cheaper as the handloader takes over the most expensive part of the manufacturing process ,quality control..The difference to myself who is a hunter and informal target shooter was in things like taking a 220 swift which held 1 inch at 100 yards with remington ammo and turning it into a sub half minute rifle with handloads, which cost less than one third the price .

Gunter Mauser

Foxshooter 243, does the fact that match target ammo is debt seated to a fixed measured factory measurement to accommodate most but not all firearms resulting in the fact that the unlucky few or the guy with the expensive custom rifle will need to adust the col measurement of the bullet so that the benefit from having a reloading press with all the accessories could well be needed. If you have decided that this equipment is essential to the progression of your sport then the futher and obvious step which will also give the reloader more options is to carry on by fully engaging in the practice of reloading by using different power brands / primers....etc.

In the ROI having stocks of your favorite factory ammo on the shelf and available when
you need it is by no means guaranteed often you will find yourself compromising
for something less competitive than what you have been used to.:(

foxshooter243

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Foxshooter 243, does the fact that match target ammo is debt seated to a fixed measured factory measurement to accommodate most but not all firearms resulting in the fact that the unlucky few or the guy with the expensive custom rifle will need to adust the col measurement of the bullet so that the benefit from having a reloading press with all the accessories could well be needed. If you have decided that this equipment is essential to the progression of your sport then the futher and obvious step which will also give the reloader more options is to carry on by fully engaging in the practice of reloading by using different power brands / primers....etc.

In the ROI having stocks of your favorite factory ammo on the shelf and available when
you need it is by no means guaranteed often you will find yourself compromising
for something less competitive than what you have been used to.:(

The problem with any factory round is that its designed to be used in any rifle of the correct chambering, it has always been best practise in the past { in countries which allow it} to handload your ammo to wring that last piece of accuracy out of your rifle, thats why you see serious target shooting competitors coming here with handloads and foreign shooters using handloads in competition in their home countries.
I have heard of the practise of bullet pulling and adjusting bullet seating depths in order to enhance the performance of a factory load in a given rifle, but its one I wouldnt promote myself as the powder contained therein would be an unknown factor, as commercial bullet manufacturers have access to powders that are not available to the handloader , and they dont give out that information freely.another thing to bear in mind is that commercial bullet manufacturers have much better testing facilities than the handloader, they are able to make ammo with very high but safe operating pressure ,so anyone deciding to seat a bullet deeper in a commercial round could create a pressure spike and cause problems.
The best way is to have access to all components so proper trials can be done with known components working off proper up to date reloading manuals published by the manufacturer.
as regards ammo supply in the ROI, its very disheartening when you have your rifle zeroed to a particular bullet only to be told sorry wont have no more of those bullets try these.reloading is a boon to the rifleman.:)

Kareir

I dont know if we're still doing this, or whether the thread has moved on to reloading questions, but....


I think that reloading will have to come in eventually.
one could argue that irish shooting teams cannot keep up with teams from other countries using handloaded ammo.
it would also be useful for anyone that uses
An expensive slightly obscure cartridge (eg. .220 Swift, .257 Weatherby...)
I could accept if the "restricted" rounds (.223 and .308 come to mind) had restricted reloading components.

_Kar.

PS: Incidentally, the supposed "military" rounds (Aforementioned .223 and .308) restriction is fairly silly, but that's another discussion for another time.

It wasn't me!

Neither .223 nor .308 is restricted, in point of fact. Calibres above .308 are restricted.

Kareir

Ah, my fault. I thought the .308 was included in the restriction with things above. and then why is it so damn hard to get a .223? is it the fact it's a "military" round?

It wasn't me!

Ah, it's been some odd inexplicable misconception in certain districts. Most places have no issue with it.

Gunter Mauser

Foxshooter 243. Would you agree that having to use ammo from an unknown batch no, different weight of head or different brand of factory ammo altogether on the day of a shooting competition can be a handicap or at the very least slow you down with the resulting loss of focused concentration. A known Quality full batch / lot great if you can afford or find it in one go!


For the hunter who zeros for one brand and weight of ammo then finds this combination is not available next time he goes to the ammo dealer most lightly he / she will try something different rather than do the rounds. I know of hunters who will use what they find closest to what they think will do the job and later complain about the one that got away but do you hear about the one that was maimed.

Informal practice range shooting for the hunter in the future or lack of, just might add to this situation. This is where the use of Military ranges could come in to play?

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Would you agree that having to use ammo from an unknown batch no, different weight of head or different brand of factory ammo altogether on the day of a shooting competition can be a handicap or at the very least slow you down with the resulting loss of focused concentration. A known Quality full batch / lot great if you can afford or find it in one go!

That's certainly the approach taken by most ISSF shooters. You shoot with ammo that's a known quantity when possible. Top shooters will go to the ammunition manufacturers with their rifle, test various batches and then buy the entire lot of the best batch.

foxshooter243

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Foxshooter 243. Would you agree that having to use ammo from an unknown batch no, different weight of head or different brand of factory ammo altogether on the day of a shooting competition can be a handicap or at the very least slow you down with the resulting loss of focused concentration. A known Quality full batch / lot great if you can afford or find it in one go!


For the hunter who zeros for one brand and weight of ammo then finds this combination is not available next time he goes to the ammo dealer most lightly he / she will try something different rather than do the rounds. I know of hunters who will use what they find closest to what they think will do the job and later complain about the one that got away but do you hear about the one that was maimed.

Informal practice range shooting for the hunter in the future or lack of, just might add to this situation. This is where the use of Military ranges could come in to play?

I wouldnt fancy my chances in a competition with unknown ammo,
the only way is to have plenty of the best..and to be honest if had
some unknown or better untried ammo, i wouldnt use it for hunting unless i had checked and rezored first..lessons learned many moons ago in the school of hard knocks:D:D my thoughts on rifleshooting are good rifle ,
first class optics and mounts, best quality ammo;) and practise ,practise
practise cos then the shooter is the weakest link in the chain.
as for millitary ranges, im not a pessimist but i wouldnt hold my breath:(

Sikamick

Originally Posted by Gunter Mauser

For the hunter who zeros for one brand and weight of ammo then finds this combination is not available next time he goes to the ammo dealer most lightly he / she will try something different rather than do the rounds.

_________________________________________________________________

It happens all the time Gunter Mauser, I use 100grn Lapua .243 for Stalking, you do your sighting in at 100 yds, get good results.

Off you go do your stalking/fox shooting and some target shooting, over a period of time of course, run out of ammo and then the firearms dealer tells you no 100grn Lapua .243 would you like something else .

Back to the range and start all over again.

Reloading would make life so much easier, accurate and cheaper.

meathshooter

____________________________________________________________

It happens all the time Gunter Mauser, I use 100grn Lapua .243 for Stalking, you do your sighting in at 100 yds, get good results.

Off you go do your stalking/fox shooting and some target shooting, over a period of time of course, run out of ammo and then the firearms dealer tells you no 100grn Lapua .243 would you like something else .

Back to the range and start all over again.

Reloading would make life so much easier, accurate and cheaper.[/QUOTE]

happens to me all the time when I get ammo that suits my .243 rifle find my self searching the length of the country for the same when I run out or the price has gone sky high

Sikamick

Please try and keep this thread active and get as many shooting friends to comment on reloading.

We need to show why we the shooting fraternity need and want reloading by giving logical and sensible reasons why it should be allowed.

Sikamick

Sikamick wrote: »

Please try and keep this thread active and get as many shooting friends to comment on reloading.

We need to show why we the shooting fraternity need and want reloading by giving logical and sensible reasons why it should be allowed.

Yeah.... 'cause the DoJ will give a thread on an internet forum more weight then the FCP..

Vegeta

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah.... 'cause the DoJ will give a thread on an internet forum more weight then the FCP..

well maybe members of the FCP come here for some ideas, quite possible.

Sikamick

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah.... 'cause the DoJ will give a thread on an internet forum more weight then the FCP..

_________________________________________________________________

zabara is it the suggestions you don't like or is it me, some constructive suggestions would be of more benefit here from one that is supposed to be a moderator.


Please try and keep personalities out of this, whether you like or dislike me is irrelevant it should be the sport before the shooter.

When I asked for Devore to contact his person in the DOJ you also knocked that idea, What do you really want out of this forum apart from trying to wreck every suggestion that might be of use to the people watching in.

Now can you get a grip on reality please.

Sikamick

Vegeta wrote: »

well maybe members of the FCP come here for some ideas, quite possible.

I agree Vegeta, the leading bodies should be using this forum for ideas and giving advice and leadership.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

_________________________________________________________________

zabara is it the suggestions you don't like or is it me, some constructive suggestions would be of more benefit here from one that is supposed to be a moderator.


Please try and keep personalities out of this, whether you like or dislike me is irrelevant it should be the sport before the shooter.

When I asked for Devore to contact his person in the DOJ you also knocked that idea, What do you really want out of this forum apart from trying to wreck every suggestion that might be of use to the people watching in.

Now can you get a grip on reality please.

Now Mick, you have to make allowances for Zara, he's deep in the throes of exam studies and obviously got the soggy cornflakes this morning

On the other hand, he didn't make any personal comments about you, so perhaps you had the soggy cornflakes as well?

Sikamick

rrpc please look back on my previous request to have Devore contact the DOJ in relation to transportation of firearms and or ammunition.

As a mod he should read the charter and keep personalities/sarcasm out of what could be of Benifit to shooting people, as I have already said if he has a problem with me this is not the place to sort it out.

I am irrelevant, the sport and what benefits it should be put first.

IRLConor

Sikamick wrote: »

As as mod he should read the charter and keep personalities/sarcasm out of what could be of Benifit to shooting people, as I have already said if he has a problem with me this is not the place to sort it out.

You are correct that here is not the place for settling personality issues.

That said, when zaraba posts here he is not a moderator. He's only a moderator when he's in the Equestrian and Wexford forums. He should be no more or less in compliance with the charter than any other poster here.

My problem Mick, is the following.

This is a shooting forum for the discussion of shooting. It was a great forum until the politics came in. It ruined a great forum and a lot of good posters packed up and headed to other places.

Also, as mentioned above, this is an internet shooting forum, it the same as a group of people sitting round a table in pub, except in that setting at least you know who the people are and they are not hiding behind dummy accounts.

You can't seem to accept that this is just a forum, it is not a NGB nor does it have a place on the FCP and rightly so - people on NGBs have access to a lot more information then ever reaches the public domain and make their decisions accordingly.

However, when Mr S Mick starts posting crap on a forum that contradicts what the NGB are saying to the DoJ, where does that leave them?

If you have suggestions, etc start emailing whichever NGB represents you. If you feel strong enough, run for a position but stop playing keyboard warrior. Leave the negotiations to the people elected to negotiate and leave this forum for what it was originally intended for, the discussion of shooting and not shooting politics, and please stop making suggestions such that DeV turns over his DOJ contact for the mods use.. again this place is like a group of people chatting in a pub - its great fun, but you don't start demanding the minister comes down and listens to you.

Gunter Mauser

Vegeta wrote: »

well maybe members of the FCP come here for some ideas, quite possible.

RESTRICTED LIST QUESTIONS YOU WOULD LIKE TO ASK THE DoJ.... post 'em here...
Right, I have contacts (its amazing what a Boards announcement can do).

Those people are happy to answer a set of questions from us. I will act as intermediary and collate the questions into a document in which (hopefully) they will fill in the answers. Quote Devore. Remember this
Zarbra direct contact with the DOJ. If you are not that well up
on shooting matters perhaps you should stick to your field of expertise.

No one has all the answers not even the DOJ of the FCP for that matter.

Vegeta

Folks if someone disagrees with a point you are making then feel free, using logic and sound reasoning, to counter their arguement.

Lets not have even more persoanl grudges in here.

zaraba, there is a place for the discussion of politics in here (that's why the forums were seperated I believe, to keep it out of the others, hunting, target shooting)

This thread is about reloading issues, lets not pull it disgustingly off topic.

Sikamick

zabara your right it is a forum open to public use and not a click, if I post anything the Mod/Admin feel is out of placed they will remove it.

As for the politics it was started by probably by a friend of yours who named and tried to shame our club and the owner of the land with lies.

Here end it the politics.

It wasn't me!

Really, this has no place in the forum. This isn't even politics. This is just antagonism.

Listen to Vegeta, he's got it exactly right. What has someone "defaming" another club got to do with anything here? Has it got anything to do with reloading? No. Has it anything to do with the legal position of reloading? Has it in fact got anything to do with even politics, or is it silly sniping for personality conflicts alone?

Gunter Mauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sikamick
Please try and keep this thread active and get as many shooting friends to comment on reloading.

We need to show why we the shooting fraternity need and want reloading by giving logical and sensible reasons why it should be allowed.

Yeah.... 'cause the DoJ will give a thread on an internet forum more weight then the FCP.. Quote Zarbra.

Sikamick was been positive why knock him. Whats wrong with his suggestion? Why bother to vote or even try for change. fourms like this can help to guide and inform. No pointing saying at some later stage "we / they have should done more to get reloading introduced here they did not bring up this aspect etc....

A previous thread along with this thread trys to in a cogent way gather a lot of the positive reasons why reloading should be allowed. IF the FCP along with the DOJ do have all the facts, then no harm done if not by posting here but the possibility remains that you just might open some eyes creating a tipping point that will change minds.

johngalway

Well, I recently got four reloading books, to read up on it. So, I'm going to be positive about the whole reloading issue

foxshooter243

johngalway wrote: »

Well, I recently got four reloading books, to read up on it. So, I'm going to be positive about the whole reloading issue

Thats the spirit:D

Sparks

Deleted User wrote: »

This is a shooting forum for the discussion of shooting. It was a great forum until the politics came in. It ruined a great forum and a lot of good posters packed up and headed to other places.

I have to take issue with this on two points zara:
1) There are four shooting forums - "politics" is banned in three of them. This forum is not one of those three.
2) The "politics" on this forum has done shooting in general a great service in the past three or four years. I remember how bad it used to be - it's nowhere near perfect now, and we've a ways to go yet, but we're a hell of a long way from where we started, and in the right direction. When I started shooting, the idea of an FCP would get you laughed out of the room as naive. (I know, 'cos I was one of those laughed at). The idea of shooting bodies trusting each other and working with one another was laughed at behind closed doors (I know, 'cos I was there, and I know why it was laughed at, 'cos I got burned trying to do it). Shooting in general has gained enormously over the years, and this forum played an important role in that because it let us coordinate grassroots stuff like the protesting against the fees hike - and more importantly, it ensured that that coordination wasn't done by any NGB. It let people post complaints anonymously that would have seen them punished for complaining about in reality (and yes, I saw that happen a lot too). Today, if someone tried that, it'd be up here in a day or so and someone would be made to look pretty daft.

Personally, I think the posting of "politics" related stuff in here serves a bloody good purpose.

That said, IWM is right as well - there's a line between "politics" and out-and-out antagonism and we've not been good in here about keeping on the right side of that (yeah, I'm guilty of that as well, despite trying hard). But given how much had built up before this safety valve appeared, I think we've done bloody well. Hell, even the worst scraps we had in here never even came near how bad things got in the real world in the past few years in Irish shooting.




ps. It's not really politics. I wish people would stop calling it that, because (at least where I come from) calling someone a politician is an insult. What all this crap we've seen in here is, is administration. The only real politics we've seen has been in the DoJ. What we keep calling politics isn't. What it is, is a side effect of 98% of the work in shooting being done by 2% of the people (and I know you know this zara, you were one of the 2% for years). Problem with that arrangement is that people don't take an interest, and others then get used to making decisions without any input on behalf of hundreds of people, and eventually someone gets annoyed at that, and you get a spat. It's a cycle. It happened before the NRPAI was formed, it happened when the NTSA was formed, it's happened here again recently, and if we don't change this "someone else will run the match and build the range and clean up after I shoot" mentality, it'll keep on happening.

Gunter Mauser

Well said Sparks,100% spot on. Remember the Digest published an article
by Garrett Byrne (chairman of the FCP) in it most fair comment would point out that this infromation was well wide of the true fact. This arguement has to be countered.