How to judge the size of land needed for a home build.

emmetor

Guys, I'm really new to all of this, but am learning, and hopefully will be looking to invest in a few years. I have some rough plans though.

One of my main plans is to buy a small amount of land, just exactly on the edge of the city (in a small strip of rural houses, about 200/500 metres past the last city housing estate in a good area) and build two cedar homes on it.

It's from an Irish company that imports Canadian homes modified for Irish weather, (and FYI I have absolutely no connection with them ) but I like the big impressive north American style homes, and think it might be a great selling point for some buyers.

Having absolutely no money, I thought I would try to mortgage just enough for the land and the two homes, hopefully to sell both. I wanted to get a rough idea of how much land would be needed, so that the two houses and a bit of garden would fit adequately. I mean, I don't want to ruin their value by shoving them too close together, either.

Here's a URL to one of the houses I considered: Sierra Model - 1911 sq ft.. I'm told it costs about 100-120k for each of the houses themselves, including construction, and 20k to furnish each one, but I can't calculate what the land will cost, because I don't know how to judge how much land each house needs.

So, How much of an acre would I need to build each house?

Many thanks!!

Emmet

hedgeh0g

What a beautiful house - best of luck with it.

Noelie

I worked it out as approx 120'x65' for both houses, 60x65 each.
each house 48x38
a 5 foot buffer either side of each house
and 25 foot for rear garden. I didn't include a front garden.
that would be the min in my opinion

The_Conductor

Contact the council (whichever council that may be) and get a copy of their guidelines for planning permission. In general the size of the site and garden is determined by the number of bedrooms and the square footage of the house. Density considerations may also be in the equation.

They are lovely houses btw- Griffner put up a series of similar houses, including a couple of ultra energy efficient ones (they used baled hemp as insulation in the walls). There are a few showhouses based on this concept open to view (contact Coillte for details).

S.

the_syco

emmetor wrote: »

Having absolutely no money, I thought I would try to mortgage just enough for the land and the two homes

Do you like ass rape? I ask, as unless you want to bend over and take it, give yourself a few grand leeway, to avoid having to pull one house due to being short a few hundred.

emmetor

Thanks for the set of replies, it's been very, very helpful. I'll go for a 0.25 minimum acre as a size estimate for the two houses if front gardens are included, and will make sure to check with the council to find the most exact size.

Thanks for the good luck! I'll need a bit, I'd say!
I need to study the whole thing a bit more, I mean, I don't even know if I should furnish them, or add driveways, garden walls, grass etc, or even how long it takes to sell a house, and of course everyone says "20k for emergencies", "you can't get a mortgage". or "the legal fees will eat all your profits, and you'll just break even", or even "all wooden houses have problems".

Hm... people on this board seem to know their stuff a little better than the average bloke in the pub who's never done property development, and has no intention of taking the risk.

Meanwhile, I think I'll do up a model with Google SketchUp and plonk it into Google Earth to check.

Thank you to all!

davidoco

emmetor wrote: »

..... just exactly on the edge of the city (in a small strip of rural houses, about 200/500 metres past the last city housing estate in a good area) and build two cedar homes on it.

......... Sierra Model - 1911 sq

Attached is not a Sketchup of how the Sierra might look fitted in between a small strip of rural houses, but it might be useful at a preplanning meeting.

The_Conductor

emmetor- in the current climate, a nice bungalow on a decent sized site, might be far more saleable than two bungalows without sufficient space for kids to play footie in the garden, park 2 cars, have a garden pond and a small vegetable plot.

People's expectations have changed immensely and in a lot of cases they are willing to pay a little bit more to go that extra mile. I'd be more inclined to put a larger structure on a decent sized site, than two smaller ones without enough in the way of garden space. Most of those people who bought shoeboxes over the past few years aspire to that bungalow with a decent garden, even if FTBs might not be prepared to take on the extra work it would entail.

Just a thought.

emmetor

Davidoco, it was nice of you to put that image together, thanks for that. It's handy to be able to see the scale of the houses together. The area I was hoping to build in has a few big houses on it, so the land may not be available, and looks high. I'd go for the upmarket area if I knew I was just going to live there, and not going to sell - but selling it is the point really. I mean, if I had money, I wouldn't need to buy and sell in the first place, and could go buy something directly in the desired area. It's not that it's upmarket, it's that it has space, and the location is great.

So meanwhile seeing the Sierras between bungalows has given me an idea for another location nearby, where a development like that could fit in perfectly.

Thanks smccarrick for the feedback. 0.125 acre is a little bigger than a shoebox, though, but I see where you're coming from. The more valuable houses do have larger gardens, which cost money. Wouldn't 0.15 acre would be a reasonable size garden for a suburbian house? (maybe i'm doing the maths wrongly).

Anyway, I had a quick look on daft, and saw a phenomenal amount of homes for sale for 1.25 million and over, and many of them were amazingly boring, but most had big gardens. I can see the temptation to build big, and it seems very cheap. I can definitely see the attraction, but I'm not convinced yet! The missus wouldn't be very happy about building a dream home and moving out of it.

Supercell

Jeepers, that really is a gorgeous house, I'd definitely go for something like that.
I did look into costings on houses like these before and think you are massively underestimating the costs. Whilst the house itself may only be 120k , septic tank, plumbing, wiring is likely to be at least another 100k, probably closer to 150k, then on top of that theres the land cost...

I wonder though how hard it would be to get planning permission for them though, I doubt many planners have seen much of the like in this country before.
I don't think you'll have much change out of 350-400K per house when all is said and done imho , unless you plan on building far outside the commuter areas . Its still brilliant value for its size and looks at 350-400K though compared to what else is available in this country in that price bracket.

beeno67

Supercell wrote: »

Jeepers, that really is a gorgeous house, I'd definitely go for something like that.
I did look into costings on houses like these before and think you are massively underestimating the costs. Whilst the house itself may only be 120k , septic tank, plumbing, wiring is likely to be at least another 100k, probably closer to 150k, then on top of that theres the land cost...

I wonder though how hard it would be to get planning permission for them though, I doubt many planners have seen much of the like in this country before.
I don't think you'll have much change out of 350-400K per house when all is said and done imho , unless you plan on building far outside the commuter areas . Its still brilliant value for its size and looks at 350-400K though compared to what else is available in this country in that price bracket.

I agree. I think you may be hugely underestimating the cost.

emmetor

Please don't take this as 100% fact - check with crannog first - just in case my memory is faulty, because I don't want to give incorrect information publically about that company, and get into hot water over it.

It was 2006 that I was talking to the lady in Crannog - (Eleanor, I think her name is), and she used an example of a woman who had bought a home from them in a Cork, and it cost her 280k for a 3bed including land, and all building costs plus 20k more to furnish it. 300k was her total spend. Six months later, it was valued at 450k.

The place I'd be looking at already has mains water/electricity just in front of the land, and I think I don't need a septic tank there either. I had no idea these things were so expensive though. I'm amazed.

Oh yeah, since you mentioned planning permission, I asked about it, and she was very confident about it. She said they would prepare the planning application on the client's behalf if necessary, and if there were any difficulties, they could add many extra eco-friendly features to the house to make it more popular with the planners. She said that in general planning was fine, provided the model of house wasn't too 'chocolate-boxy'.
(meaning that it didn't look too much like an Alpine log cabin - where you could see the shape of the logs in the walls of the building).

I think she also said that mortgage approval was easier also, because these types of homes tended to go up in value pretty quickly. Hearing that you like the look of the homes, and think they're great value is a relief. Jesus.

So... that's about as much as I know. I really would have checked my prices before posting if I knew there was going to be any level of interest in it. I'll call on Monday, and if there's any change, then I'll let ye know.

The_Conductor

SEI have an eco-friendly building exhibition in the RDS today.
If you're in the area, it might be worth a visit?

snellers

emmetor - you mention that the type of house will make mortgage approval easier?

I don;t understand - the criteria for mortgage surely is based on amount of deposit, collateral and ability to pay back - I have never been asked what style of house I am self building - simply the projected costs involved (ie how much I want to borrow)

Maybe someone here can correct me - and let me know what bank out there will facilitate mortgages easier based on their belief it will increase in value quicker than others....

thanks in advance

Emmetor - one other thing - it would well be worth having a pre-planning meet with the planners as providing you give the info they require to have the meeting it will cost nothing if you do this yourself. The planners will consider the size of land, type of proposed build...etc and make you aware of any concerns they have - this will save you a lot of money attempting planning if it is a no go from planners point of view. Sounds to me as if the architect/(designer) firm you have spoken to are willing to spend time applying for planning - bottom line is you will pay them probably a small fortune in advance of even knowing if you have a cat in hells chance of building. (they of course would get paid for the initial planning app and all subsequent planning applications)

Nevyn

Eeven with a self build you need to have a house which is covered by insuracne and some companies have issues with houses that are not concrete builds or not to certain standards for wooden prefab builds, so you might not get a mortguage due to lack of insurance.

As for trying to get a grasp on size, I would suggest you get yoursefl to your nearest back when the tide is out and use a stick and a large builders measuring tape
to lay out the templet of the houses and gardens per 1:1 scale.

patrickolee

emmetor wrote: »

It was 2006 that I was talking to the lady in Crannog - (Eleanor, I think her name is), and she used an example of a woman who had bought a home from them in a Cork, and it cost her 280k for a 3bed including land, and all building costs plus 20k more to furnish it. 300k was her total spend. Six months later, it was valued at 450k.

She was trying to sell you something, she would have told you anything that she thought you wanted to hear. Take that information with a sack of salt.

On your original idea, most of the cost of a house is the land it is on, not the actual building cost, so you are probably not making a huge saving by buying and importing a house rather than building. Do your own sums and dont believe sales people.

emmetor

I know she was selling her product, but she was absolutely inspired by every aspect and spent about 45 minutes going through every detail even though she knew I wasn't buying anything. Maybe it was just a good day, I don't know. She mentioned many of the aspects brought up, but I just don't remember - it was almost 3 years ago now, but I kept the brochures. Now, I think those houses are absolutely cool, BUT if I were buying right now, I would definitely be out there with the measuring tape, checking on insurance, checking with the planners, I'd have every aspect detailed in MindManager, and I'd be investigating a concrete build to compare with. Once everything is broken down over a period of a few years, with the helpful feedback from experienced minds like your own, most of the main snags should begin to reveal themselves.

I'm all for chasing dreams, but dreams need to be pinned down with painstaking research, liberal doses of logic, and experience to turn them into reality. So, being able to read your feedback is incredibly valuable - there were so many things I hadn't considered, that are now on my list.

One thing I wanted to avoid was being broke while paying off a mortgage. Two of my siblings bought beautiful detached homes squashed really close together in Naas, and both have mortgages of about €2600 per month. Both families are having a tough time even with double incomes in both cases. When those houses are paid off, they'll have little else, since there's not much room for savings after paying childminders, petrol, and then of course the commute to Dublin takes a big chunk of their time as well.

I'm really anxious to get started, but meanwhile, I've gone back to university, while herself is working hard. We had decided that if we could get a mortgage in the near future, that we'd do everything possible try and make it work for us, and see if we could build two homes instead of one, and sell them. If that worked, then we would be escaping a lot of the pain of paying a mortgage, and who knows where it would lead.

Thanks for your suggestions, I think the pre-planning meet is a great idea, and will bring a lot of things out in the open.

Snellers - About the mortgage, it's all second hand information, but if I find out, I'll let you know. BTW, I don't know whether a lender will actually be more likely to lend based on resale value or not, but I imagine it's a strategy by the company to make the most intruiging presentation possible so their client can show the bank - thereby possibly influencing a borderline morgage decision for the positive.

Urgh. That reminds me to check my credit rating!

anya

emmetor wrote: »

Snellers - About the mortgage, it's all second hand information, but if I find out, I'll let you know. BTW, I don't know whether a lender will actually be more likely to lend based on resale value or not, but I imagine it's a strategy by the company to make the most intruiging presentation possible so their client can show the bank - thereby possibly influencing a borderline morgage decision for the positive.

Urgh. That reminds me to check my credit rating!

I've been looking into this myself, and I've just bought a site. I've been told by people who've built wooden houses that several mortgage lenders that they spoke to would not consider giving a mortgage on a wooden house, given the issues getting insurance that someone mentioned further up this thread. But I imagine that will change given the huge increase in the amount of them going up.

In relation to the amount you can borrow, if you're borrowing for the site first many places will only lend you 80% of the site purchase price. For the build itself, I've been told they will lend the total cost of the build plus an allowance for decoration, garden etc. providing the total loan to value ratio on the final result will be less than the normal 92% - and being a self build that's very likely!

I've been looking at some of the Griffnor wooden houses, and they cost an awful lot more than the Crannog ones you mentioned so I'll check them out!