Does anybody here care about Tibet?

RedPlanet

leninbenjamin wrote: »

the Chinese government wont take the necessary steps to resolve this quickly and amicably. you're blaming Western media for this?

The "necessary steps"?
What, you mean that China isn't taking steps to placate the western media?
Isn't placating those nutjob, brainwashed protesters with "Free Tibet" banners?
China isn't bowing to the neocon's agenda?
No self respecting nation would do any of those things.

leninbenjamin

RedPlanet wrote: »

The "necessary steps"?
What, you mean that China isn't taking steps to placate the western media?
Isn't placating those nutjob, brainwashed protesters with "Free Tibet" banners?
China isn't bowing to the neocon's agenda?

yeah yeah yeah. i'm just another liberal free tibet nut. good detective work there mate. you clearly haven't been paying much attention to what i've said.

Tomas_V makes the good point there. there are a lot of comparisons to be drawn with the current Tibetan situation and our own History of this wee isle. if China continue to take the hard hat tough man line they risk inflaming the situation, it only takes one over reaction to a few dissenters to turn 2 or 3 million against you. and it only takes a few wealthy western ex-pats/sympathizers to fuel an all out rebellion. it's in everyone's interests that this be resolved amicably.

RedPlanet wrote: »

No self respecting nation would do any of those things.

surely no self respecting nation should risk endangering their citizens for the sake of their 'public image'? why should people's lives be put on the line for these grand ideals? would you like to see more shopkeepers burned alive? more dissenters shot in the street?

marcsignal

Can’t say I know anything about Tibet & China. However, Fair Dews to the OP ‘yawtin’ it’s good to see someone from China getting in on this debate.

ateam wrote: »

This issue is getting too much attention.

+1.

RedPlanet wrote: »

For example how is it that the Dalai Lama is associated with non-violence when he was a recipient of CIA money?

+1.

It’s the very time other parts of the world should be watched more closely now, especially when the CIA are anywhere in the equation. You never know what might slip in under the radar;-) IMO.

“Unfortunately, sometimes things have to be changed in a rather ugly way, we’re going to intervene whenever we decide it’s in our National Security Interests to intervene, and if you don’t like it? Lump it!”

“Duane Clarridge” (CIA Chief, Latin America 1961-64) in an interview with John Pilger, for the ‘War on Democracy’ documentary.

http://quicksilverscreen.com/watch?video=43315

Kev_ps3

ateam wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed that there's hardly any protesters. No more than 2,000 in London I'd say which is isn't earth shattering. This issue is getting too much attention.

Thats because the western media is jumping all over it for their own reasons.

Kev_ps3

yawtin wrote: »

let us look at his history:

Dalai's army attacked Tibet until 1970th. He failed because the liberalised slaves did not want him back. In the 70th he decided to give up Tibet independence-- China and the US developed their relationship in the 70th through "Ping Pong Diplomacy".


The first prime minister of China went to India twice to invite him back, but he rejected.

"free tibet" campaign was founded in 1987, two years later the first "Tibet Riot" broke out, in the same year there was also the Tiananmen uprise.

there had been 4 rounds of negociations between the Chinese Gov and Dalai's representitive (his brother) since the 90th.

Dalai claimed that he wants tibet to be an autonomy, but Tibet is already an autonomy. One of his conditions is there should be no Chinese army in Tibet if China wants him back. He also claimed that his Tibet autonomy should include all the areas that Tibetan people live, which is effectively a quater of China. He said Han and other ethnic Chinese have to move out of the region.

Budhism is great. Budha has a lot of great teachings. If you are not familiar with Budha's teaching, you would think Dalai is a true holy master. However his teaching is only one clan of the entire budhism religion, he is now a supperstar not for his teaching, but his political importance in the western world's dealing with China.

Bet we will never hear any of that in the western media. Sounds more like a trouble maker to me than anything else.

Grudaire

Ok basically I want to find out whats a happening over there, I've gone into some of the links, and to be fair Chinas media is ridicules(Yes even more so then the 'western' media that so demonises....etc etc)

Any way the 200 argument is null, 2000people from England cared enough, and could turn up and protest, if a protest has any kind of size it generally indicates a lot more people care about the issue.

I want to hear:
-Oppression yes/no (given the argument that the local language is taught in Tibet)
-Dalai Lama getting CIA money (What did he do with it?)

and btw I don't give a sh*t what problems you have with America- showing me videos on why the CIA are bad, I really don't care, I already have a dislike for America,
America bad not equals China Good.....

yawtin

Tomas_V wrote: »

The reason many Irish people are sympathetic to the Tibetans is because their history resembles ours in many ways.

Who build that image for you? your British enemies and other colonizers.

China's history in the last 160 years is purely struggling and fighting against foreign invaders. I think China's history and culture resembles the Irish in many ways, and I say that with confidence because I know both country well.

I admit CCTV is pretty stupid when it comes to save national image. However, Chinese people still know what is going on, from the internet. Your media show you some facts, but only partial facts, it is really better than CCTV?

yawtin

leninbenjamin wrote: »

Yawtin, obviously unacceptable crap is happening to Chinese because of this. the Chinese government wont take the necessary steps to resolve this quickly and amicably. you're blaming Western media for this?

I am not blaming western media for the chinese government's action here, although there is plenty of reason to blame them.

I am talking about western media have betrayed the notion of "fair media". They do not care about finding the truth, they think making China look bad is "politically correct" therefore it is ok to manipulate facts.

Imaging if IRA is considered as a great anti-UK tool, no matter what it does, the media of the rest of the world just say "great", do you think it is right?

GuanYin

All China really need to do is say they are now a free democracy and carry on as normal. They wouldn't be very different from the United States.

Seriously though, the US presidential hopefuls could do worse than to have a PR team like the Lama. For a body that has such blatant self-interest motivating this, they're coming off like saints.

The trouble in Tibet, IMHO, is largely instigated by the Lama for the benefit of the Lama. The PRC is oppressive. We know this. That has nothing to do with whats happening in Tibet any more than the PRC's actions in any other region of China.

Tomas_V

yawtin wrote: »

Who build that image for you? your British enemies and other colonizers.

Since most of us don't speak Chinese, we're quite likely to find out and be influenced by non-Chinese sources. But don't fall into the trap of thinking that that all Western sources of information are all politically controlled. We have access to a huge variety of independent views. And, we're well used to sifting through fact and propaganda.

yawtin wrote: »

China's history in the last 160 years is purely struggling and fighting against foreign invaders.

Such as pacifist Buddist monks from Tibet? The English, the Japanese, the Russians and maybe other Chinese yes, but Tibetans? They're not the aggressors.

yawtin wrote: »

Your media show you some facts, but only partial facts

The real question is, how is China going to win our trust? With rants about 'enemies and colonizers'? By bad-tempered references to the 'Dalai Clique'? To our ears, that sounds coarse, abusive and lacking in any respect.

China needs to tone it down a bit and become more sophisticated (and open) with its communications. Have a look at 'Al-Jazeera' or 'Russia Today' and learn how other major powers communicate their message. Learn too, from the wise and reasonable statements made by the Dalai Lama. If you don't respect your opponents, you've lost already.

The more China barks at the world, the more we'll cover our ears.

BlitzKrieg

Sorry for the random quote and answer but:

Maybe we can get the UN to hold a referenda on the independence of Donegal should we?
Or how about Scotland then?

The UN dont need to, the British already did a referendum on devolution in 1997:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_devolution_referendum%2C_1997

which can if the scottish people want it to lead to independence:

Alex Salmond has announced that his government intends to publish a white paper that will include issuing a bill on holding an independence Referendum to the Scottish Parliament. If this was passed by Parliament and a "yes" outcome was obtained in a subsequent national plebiscite, it would establish a mandate for the Scottish Executive to open talks with the British Government, with a view to repealing the Acts of Union 1707, eventually restoring Scotland's independent sovereignty.[33] However, the Scottish Labour Party, Scottish Conservative Party and Scottish Liberal Democrats, which together form a parliamentary majority, have stated they will collectively oppose any plans to hold such a referendum on independence.

link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_independence#Support_for_independence

yawtin

PSI wrote: »

All China really need to do is say they are now a free democracy and carry on as normal. They wouldn't be very different from the United States.

If you insist a country with 3000 years of recorded history is not different from a country with 300 years of history other than democracy, I just wouldn't know what to say.

Democracy will definitely be realised in China, but I is probably going to be very different from your democracy.

BlitzKrieg

If you insist a country with 3000 years of recorded history is not different from a country with 300 years of history

a land and a (debatable) nation with 3000 years of recorded history

a state with less then a 100.

GuanYin

yawtin wrote: »

If you insist a country with 3000 years of recorded history is not different from a country with 300 years of history other than democracy, I just wouldn't know what to say.

Democracy will definitely be realised in China, but I is probably going to be very different from your democracy.

That, my friend, was sarcasm on my part.

lonesome

I have been living in the Ireland for 8 years. Previously I thought the western media is quite objective and professional. Now with those tons of biased, hatred news in newspapers, on internet, and in TV towards China, I finally understand that those media all serve the interests of their own people, and will do anything, no matter how hypocrital and evil, to destroy other countries.

It is naive to think that Chinese can educate and change those biased, and maliciously-intended western media and politicians. It is ingrained in their minds to deface and destroy China. What Chinese can do is to try our best to become stronger.

We are not living in an ideal world. Instead we are living in real world. In this world, only power talks.

Tomas_V

lonesome wrote: »

Now with those tons of biased, hatred news in newspapers, on internet, and in TV towards China,

You're exaggerating. Give examples of hatred of China expressed, as editorial policy, for example, in the BBC or RTE.

lonesome wrote: »

In this world, only power talks.

Ah, I think you're actually quoting Chairman Mao? "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." It's time to move on from this philosophy. Otherwise, don't be surprised if people hate you.

lonesome

Tomas_V wrote: »

You're exaggerating. Give examples of hatred of China expressed, as editorial policy, for example, in the BBC or RTE.

Jack Cafferty--CNN 9/4/2008
“Well, I don't know if China is any different, but our
relationship with China is certainly different. We're in hawk to the Chinese
up to our eyeballs because of the war in Iraq, for one thing. They're
holding hundreds of billions of dollars worth of our paper. We also are
running hundred of billions of dollars worth of trade deficits with them, as
we continue to import their junk with the lead paint on them and the
poisoned pet food and export, you know, jobs to places where you can pay
workers a dollar a month to turn out the stuff that we're buying from Wal-
Mart. So I think our relationship with China has certainly changed. I think
they're basically the same bunch of goons and thugs they've been for the
last 50 years.”

Ah, I think you're actually quoting Chairman Mao? "Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun." It's time to move on from this philosophy. Otherwise, don't be surprised if people hate you.

Don't get me wrong, mate. It is economic power, not violent power!
DONT BE CNN, DONT BE MISLEADING

leninbenjamin

lonesome wrote: »

I finally understand that those media all serve the interests of their own people, and will do anything, no matter how hypocrital and evil, to destroy other countries.

that's not correct. western media sensationalizes and plays upon people's fears in order to sell a story. there is no hidden agenda other than to make money. If people looked at this more objectively they would realise the Western media are behaving no differently with regards China as they do on domestic issues. the problem is the motivation of Western media in general, not any political bias against China. Seriously, scan an Irish newspaper sometime, it's just negativity after negativity on domestic AND foreign issues.

and if anything it appears to me the Chinese are just as guilty of the above. i've heard nothing but how biased the BBC are recently... twas only the other day when i was reading up on the whole Tibet issue when the only thing in the way of an editorial was an opinion column of various Chinese academics (in favour of China obviously).

irishmilk

Tomas_V wrote: »

I watched the BBC coverage of the torch run in London. It was quite obvious that the protestors had disrupted the run and the BBC stated this as did the US, Russian, French and Arab news services. I then switched to China TV9 and the headline was: 'Protestors fail to disrupt torch run'.

China's government has a image problem, not the least of which is that its spokespeople lack credibility in the west.

Many chinese are thinking why should they host the game if it be used to against them by western. If all chinese inside china see the real of here, I think it is game over now. No body can save the game, even the China's government.

Overdraft

All very interesting. A few apologists for the murderous Chinese regime pop up on boards.ie and a few of the "God, I'm sooooooooo bored with this Tibet stuff" homegrown morons welcome them heartily, without having as much as an ounce of knowledge about the issue. God, you have to love the internet!

It's hard to figure out who deserves more contempt: the apologists for the murderous Chinese regime; the morons who greet their propaganda with astute questioning such as "gosh, wow"; the fraud that is the Dalai Lama; or the knuckleheads who think he's the second coming. Or should that be the first?

Dalai Lama bad = China good? Gosh, yup!

Let's simplify it:

Dalai Lama = self-serving fraud

China = murderous tyranny

Olympic movement = contemptuous scum

Chinese hosted Olympics = risible

Wish for 2008: that the Chinese hosted Olympics are a catastrophe.

Overdraft

RedPlanet wrote: »

Here's another article about the history of Tibet, including the Lamas and the current one Tenzin Gyatso.
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

Perhaps your defence of the Chinese regime might have waned if you had actually read to the end of article.....but it seems like you were only interested in the opening of it, which backed your view of the history of Buddhism in Tibet.


....Most Chinese live close to the poverty level or well under it, while a small group of newly brooded capitalists profit hugely in collusion with shady officials. Regional bureaucrats milk the country dry, extorting graft from the populace and looting local treasuries. Land grabbing in cities and countryside by avaricious developers and corrupt officials at the expense of the populace are almost everyday occurrences. Tens of thousands of grassroot protests and disturbances have erupted across the country, usually to be met with unforgiving police force. Corruption is so prevalent, reaching into so many places, that even the normally complacent national leadership was forced to take notice and began moving against it in late 2006.

Workers in China who try to organize labor unions in the corporate dominated “business zones” risk losing their jobs or getting beaten and imprisoned. Millions of business zone workers toil twelve-hour days at subsistence wages. With the health care system now being privatized, free or affordable medical treatment is no longer available for millions. Men have tramped into the cities in search of work, leaving an increasingly impoverished countryside populated by women, children, and the elderly. The suicide rate has increased dramatically, especially among women.

China’s natural environment is sadly polluted. Most of its fabled rivers and many lakes are dead, producing massive fish die-offs from the billions of tons of industrial emissions and untreated human waste dumped into them. Toxic effluents, including pesticides and herbicides, seep into ground water or directly into irrigation canals. Cancer rates in villages situated along waterways have skyrocketed a thousand-fold. Hundreds of millions of urban residents breathe air rated as dangerously unhealthy, contaminated by industrial growth and the recent addition of millions of automobiles. An estimated 400,000 die prematurely every year from air pollution. Government environmental agencies have no enforcement power to stop polluters, and generally the government ignores or denies such problems, concentrating instead on industrial growth.

China’s own scientific establishment reports that unless greenhouse gases are curbed, the nation will face massive crop failures along with catastrophic food and water shortages in the years ahead. In 2006-2007 severe drought was already afflicting southwest China.

If China is the great success story of speedy free market development, and is to be the model and inspiration for Tibet’s future, then old feudal Tibet indeed may start looking a lot better than it actually was.




A great regime, indeed.

Tomas_V

lonesome wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, mate. It is economic power, not violent power! DONT BE CNN, DONT BE MISLEADING

It didn't sound that way & it's language like this that is alienating people in the west from sympathy for China.

You've quoted CNN. I asked you to quote from BBC or RTE. How about today's 'Irish Times', the article on the 'Great Firewall of China'? Do you have a copy?

RedPlanet

Overdraft wrote: »

Perhaps your defence of the Chinese regime might have waned if you had actually read to the end of article.....but it seems like you were only interested in the opening of it, which backed your view of the history of Buddhism in Tibet.

You are mistaken Overdraft.
I have not posted anything in defence of the Chinese government or it's actions.
Rather i've been posting things debunking the Dalai Lama myth and western propoganda.

lonesome

Tomas_V wrote: »

It didn't sound that way & it's language like this that is alienating people in the west from sympathy for China.

You've quoted CNN. I asked you to quote from BBC or RTE. How about today's 'Irish Times', the article on the 'Great Firewall of China'? Do you have a copy?

Tibet - Why the Chinese are There
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2671814

Empire - Tibet and Francis Younghusband
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/empire/episodes/episode_74.shtml

BBC website 'unblocked in China'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7312240.stm

Tibet - CIA use of Takhli in the 1950s.

They never tell u the full story at once.
In relation to the article you mentioned, I haven't read yet. but I haven't expressed in defence the government's action, let's back to Media

Grudaire

lonesome wrote: »

BBC website 'unblocked in China'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7312240.stm

Well..........

BBC News wrote:

People in China are able to access English language stories on the BBC News website in full

Oh my golly! the Irish are allowed to read all the Chinese news storys in Chinese! We must be a nice country:rolleyes:

Tomas_V

lonesome wrote: »

Tibet - Why the Chinese are There
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A2671814

That's not written by the BBC and it's part of the BBC's facility of permitting independent views to be published.

lonesome wrote: »

Empire - Tibet and Francis Younghusband
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/empire/episodes/episode_74.shtml

BBC website 'unblocked in China'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7312240.stm

What is your problem with these?

lonesome wrote: »

They never tell u the full story at once.

Unlike the Chinese government-run media who tell us all we need to know? The truth is always complicated and must come from many different witnesses. Do you think that only nice things should be said about China?

lonesome wrote: »

In relation to the article you mentioned, I haven't read yet. .... let's back to Media

Is it available where you are?

Will you be watching Dan Cruikshank tonight? It's about Tibet.

Black hole sun

Overdraft wrote: »

All very interesting. A few apologists for the murderous Chinese regime pop up on boards.ie and a few of the "God, I'm sooooooooo bored with this Tibet stuff" homegrown morons welcome them heartily, without having as much as an ounce of knowledge about the issue. God, you have to love the internet!

It's hard to figure out who deserves more contempt: the apologists for the murderous Chinese regime; the morons who greet their propaganda with astute questioning such as "gosh, wow"; the fraud that is the Dalai Lama; or the knuckleheads who think he's the second coming. Or should that be the first?

Dalai Lama bad = China good? Gosh, yup!

Let's simplify it:

Dalai Lama = self-serving fraud

China = murderous tyranny

Olympic movement = contemptuous scum

Chinese hosted Olympics = risible

Wish for 2008: that the Chinese hosted Olympics are a catastrophe.

QFT

OK-Cancel-Apply

I'm horrified that so many people are buying into the anti-Chinese media campaign. I suppose some people just measure a situation by how many celebrities are piping up about. If so, I suggest changing your method of sniffing out balony by checking Fox News, and Sky News - the more the shout about it, the more you should treat it with suspicion. I'm shocked to also see that some people actually think western news organisations are agenda-free.

Here's a good idea: Let's call for a boycott of London 2012 for Britain's illegal invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq (leaving 1.1 million dead so far), and failure to lift a finger to help the Palestinian people at a time of one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. How about British support for the cluster bombing of Lebanon in 2006? Oh wait... I forgot about the different set of rules for western superpowers.

Ireland currently has good relations with China (does everybody forget about all the cultural exchange events we have?) Let's not ruin our good relations with them by going with the anti-Chinese flow, just to placate Uncle Sam, and Britain (the 51st state).

They want to try and derail China's Olympics, image and economic growth, because they know that they are the world's next superpower. First, it was Darfur, (and I don't think it's a coincidence that Sudan is sitting on a huge oilfield, and that they've promised to sell all of it to China), and now it's 'Tibet'. FFS. Can't you all see what's going on?

^See, China would rather buy the oil than send the army in to steal it (as America would).

It's always somebody (The Russians, the 'Muslims', the Chinese) - who's going to stick up for us if we are targetted next?

Tomas_V

I'm watching 'Dialogue' on CCTV9. It's giving the Chinese view on Tibet. While many true facts are being discussed, the show is frequently punctuated by attacks on the Dalai Lama and Tibetans and their culture, the most scurrilous is aligning them with Nazi Germany. Absent from the show is any representative of opposing views or any opportunity for refutation or clarification.

Subtle it's not, the official view is driven home with a pile-driver.

SeanW

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

If so, I suggest changing your method of sniffing out balony by checking Fox News, and Sky News - the more the shout about it, the more you should treat it with suspicion. I'm shocked to also see that some people actually think western news organisations are agenda-free.

And I suggest you stop readin Xinhua and watching CCTV.

Oops, I forgot, our media is "free" at least from government interference, if you don't like CNN, Fox, Sky News, BBC, RTE or whoever, there's always The Guardian, Indymedia, Google News, France 24, Euronews, Wikipedia/Wikinews and thousands of smaller independent tv/radio stations and publications etc. etc. etc. There are numerous independent sources and you have choice.

In (Red) China, the media is under the Commie's Iron grip, Internet censorship is extreme and severe, this alone should weigh heavily against any "Chinese" view since they don't have anything resembling a free media or communications of any kind, full stop.

Here's a good idea: Let's call for a boycott of London 2012 for Britain's illegal invasion and occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq (leaving 1.1 million dead so far), and failure to lift a finger to help the Palestinian people at a time of one of the world's worst humanitarian crises. How about British support for the cluster bombing of Lebanon in 2006? Oh wait... I forgot about the different set of rules for western superpowers.

Two wrongs don't make a right, but by all means boycott London 2012 if that would float your boat.

First, it was Darfur

Hmmm ... Native Darfurians being wiped out by the genocidal marauders of the "Janjaweed" all with China's blessing, Myanmar, a military junta which enslaves it's own people, again with Red China's blessing (see yawtin's closed thread). And we have an alleged "Lebensraum" policy in Tibet which is much like the "Planters" during British rule in Ireland especially in what is now Northen Ireland.

We should ignore all this ... why exactly?

^See, China would rather buy the oil than send the army in to steal it (as America would).

Stealing it/Paying genocidal religious fruitloops to supply it, doesn't make much difference.

It's always somebody (The Russians, the 'Muslims', the Chinese) - who's going to stick up for us if we are targetted next?

I'm not even going to justify that with a response.