Champions League Final 2008

Pal

If Man United get to the Final (and they probably will), I predict that there will be serious problems in Moscow no matter who they play.

Mitch Connor

Pal wrote: »

If Man United get to the Final (and they probably will), I predict that there will be serious problems in Moscow no matter who they play.

why?

Because the United fans will be there and they are particularly bad, or because they would definately be playing an English side?

Xavi6

Excellent article posted above and truth in every word.

It's sad that the biggest story to come out of the potential first all-English final will be acquired off the pitch and not on it. As a neutral I already feel sorry for the families of the victims, because it's inevitable that there will be some.

Mr Alan

I wondered how long it would take you to respond to that tauren

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

I wondered how long it would take you to respond to that tauren

It was a stupid thing to say without explaining what he meant by it.

Given UEFAs problem with the English teams stems from Liverpool fans breaking the barriers in Athens and all that. None of the English clubs have angelic supporters, lets get that outta the way now. But to single one set out is just dumb and stirring the pot on here to be honest.

Mr Alan

nice work forgetting about Rome, OT and Lille there Neil

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

nice work forgetting about Rome, OT and Lille there Neil

OK, Ill bite.

Pot kettle black Alan. I always find it funny that u get so high and mighty about this issue bearing in mind what has gone on before. No leg to stand on whatsoever. My point was the guy was suggesting that United fans are there just to start trouble which is untrue.

IIRC correctly Rome was a bunch of United fans being rushed by the police for nothing more than gesturing back at the Roma fans. Remember this was the angelic Roma they were playing and the Italian police arent exactly renouned for their good work in these situations are they? Even you have to admit that, cos u said it earlier in the thread And United have been there twice since with no problems at all.

Lille was a disgrace, I agree, because of the muppets trying to get in with the fake tickets....(Athens, barriers pushed down etc??;)) and those fans shouldnt be allowed go to United games ever again because they caused a lot of trouble and robbed the real fans who had genuine tickets, but dont forget that there were fans who bought genuine tickets outside the ground, who were told by the French authorities to go to the United end because they didnt want them mingling with the home fans. Asking for problems by overfilling one end. The trouble started when people at the front who were being crushed started trying to climb the fence cos they were getting crushed.

As for your OT statement well Im gonna asume ur talking about the Roma second leg last year (7-1!! :P) where there was a brief exchange between the fans that was blown out of all proportion by SSN??

Mr Alan

now Neil, point out where i dissed Utd fans in this thread please?

I just responded to your Uefa would wanna be worried about Liverpool fans.

i believe the term pot,kettle and black is more suited to your original post tbh.

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

nice work forgetting about Rome, OT and Lille there Neil

Roma in Rome was as much the fault of the police and Roma fans - the Roma fans were throwing missiles at the United fans, and the police rushed the United fans and the United fans reacted aggresively to this and the fact the police weren't trying to stop it(while stewards politely asked the Roma fans to stop throwing junk at the united lads). If you remember the scenes, it was mainly United fans backing away with hands up while getting clobbered.

At OT the following match, those black hoody wearing C-UNITS were entirely to blame, i'll admit that straight away - and they weren't even going to the match.

As for Lille - I'll grant fans trying to get in without tickets is a completely crappy thing to do, and those that attempted this should be ashamed. However, the Lille police were a bunch of muppet thugs. People trying to escape the crush got HAMMERED by the police. People WITH tickets trying to get in to the stadium were HAMMERED by the police. The people walking away from the stadium got blocked in, tear gassed, set on by attack dogs and HAMMERED by the police.

Also, none of the above show that United fans are any worse than Chelsea/Liverpool fans, so my question stands, why was United specifically mentioned.

yom 1

Tauren wrote: »

why?

Because the United fans will be there and they are particularly bad, or because they would definately be playing an English side?

I took it up as there will defo be trouble as it will involve 2 english sides. The game doesnt start until nearly 11 pm local time. Thats a full day of boozin in anticipation of whats to come from 2 overly vocal sets of supporters. Add to that the volatile nature of the moscow police and you really do have a recipe for disaster. I really do think that if it is an all english affair this years final will be remembered for anything but football.

Mitch Connor

yom 1 wrote: »

I took it up as there will defo be trouble as it will involve 2 english sides. The game doesnt start until nearly 11 pm local time. Thats a full day of boozin in anticipation of whats to come from 2 overly vocal sets of supporters. Add to that the volatile nature of the moscow police and you really do have a recipe for disaster. I really do think that if it is an all english affair this years final will be remembered for anything but football.

And, to be honest, I would agree with the comment if that is what they were implying. An all english final will be trouble (my ready made excuse if a single bad ref call goes against us in the semi-final!) but the original comment did not clarify either way - hence my question. If it was said with the implication that United fans are particularly bad and a Chelsea/Liverpool final would go without incident, then I have a problem with the comment.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

now Neil, point out where i dissed Utd fans in this thread please?

I just responded to your Uefa would wanna be worried about Liverpool fans.

i believe the term pot,kettle and black is more suited to your original post tbh.

Actually I was aiming that at the guy who said "if united make the final there will definietely be trouble", I was using Athens as an example that United are not alone in the problems of recent years.

I never said UEFA "would wanna worry about them" I was actually referring to the comments made by UEFA officials last year to that effect which leads me to believe that this is why they are not too fond of the Premiership teams and their fans.


I believe pot kettle black was referring to you telling me that i forgot about Rome etc when u seem to have forgotten about other incidents which we wont get into.

Mr Alan

Neil, move the **** on, the incidents your refering to are literally ****ing decades ago. I'd be properly pissed off if i didnt know you were a sound.

And if the comments you are refering to are the ones from Gailliard after the CL final, they were actually rubbished by Platini and Uefa who distanced themselves from that clown.

I'm finished participating in this conversation before i say something i regret.

Malice

Wow lots of heated debate on this topic! I wonder will UEFA try to fix it so that Chelsea play Barcelona? That way they won't have to worry about too many boozed up English fans going over . Abramovich can entertain his cronies in the executive suites while the game goes on in the background unnoticed. He could even distribute flags to the plebs stuck watching it!

ibh

Tauren wrote: »

Roma in Rome was as much the fault of the police and Roma fans - the Roma fans were throwing missiles at the United fans, and the police rushed the United fans and the United fans reacted aggresively to this and the fact the police weren't trying to stop it(while stewards politely asked the Roma fans to stop throwing junk at the united lads). If you remember the scenes, it was mainly United fans backing away with hands up while getting clobbered.

At OT the following match, those black hoody wearing C-UNITS were entirely to blame, i'll admit that straight away - and they weren't even going to the match.

As for Lille - I'll grant fans trying to get in without tickets is a completely crappy thing to do, and those that attempted this should be ashamed. However, the Lille police were a bunch of muppet thugs. People trying to escape the crush got HAMMERED by the police. People WITH tickets trying to get in to the stadium were HAMMERED by the police. The people walking away from the stadium got blocked in, tear gassed, set on by attack dogs and HAMMERED by the police.

Also, none of the above show that United fans are any worse than Chelsea/Liverpool fans, so my question stands, why was United specifically mentioned.

Liverpool have gone to Rome in recent years with absolutely no trouble. Also went to Juve, where there is of course (ancient) history between clubs.
I am not surprised that the trouble at Old Trafford was not caused by proper fans, because English clubs have an exceptional record at home games regarding their fans behaviour.

Chelsea fans don't count, cause they have no real fans.....!

smemon

Don't think there'll be any trouble before the match no matter who ends up in the final.

But should Utd / Liverpool meet, one of them has to lose. That's when the light hearted gloating gets taken to heart and the riots kick off.

It's just like here on boards... pre any big match, there's a bit of banter, nobody really cares much and the thread is fairly quiet.

After the match, match losing decisions are magnified, the winning fans don't care as they've won and suttle digs turn in to full scale riots with warnings, bannings, pages and pages of posts

I love that myself, there's nothing like seeing people get wound up and get themselves banned to protect their club or vice versa. So long as it's kept verbal there's no harm done. That includes personal insults as it's all in the heat of the moment.

You need that edge to create a good atmosphere. It ups the stakes for both sides.

iregk

ibh wrote: »

Chelsea fans don't count, cause they have no real fans.....!

Really mature comment there. So those of us that have been supporting them over 20 years dont count do we not?

Mitch Connor

ibh wrote: »

Liverpool have gone to Rome in recent years with absolutely no trouble. Also went to Juve, where there is of course (ancient) history between clubs.
I am not surprised that the trouble at Old Trafford was not caused by proper fans, because English clubs have an exceptional record at home games regarding their fans behaviour.

Chelsea fans don't count, cause they have no real fans.....!

So they went to Rome with little trouble, great. How about Athens? The Michael Shields story from the previous final? How about their behaviour at OT for the FA Cup semi at Old Trafford? How about trying to knock over the ambulance carrying Alan Smith? I'll admit that not all united fans have been angelic in the incidents highlighted (ideally there would have been no reaction to the Roma provocation, no black hoody gits at OT, no fake tickets at Lille), but i'll not agree that they are particularly worse than Chelsea/Liverpool fans. Didn't 'boro fans travel to Rome and some got stabbed? Didn't the same happen with Arsenal a few years ago? You'd think the Roma fans were innocent victims to the antics of thousands of thugish United fans the way some go on.

Again, I'm NOT saying the liveprool fans as a group are worse than United fans, or any other fans, i'm arguing that ALL english teams have their trouble making element, be it hooligans looking for a fight, people with a bit to much drink and a short fuse when they get missiles thrown at them or 'rascals' trying to see the game for free - and to single United fans out, as the poster i replied may have ment to do, is wrong.

Mr Alan

smemon wrote: »

But should Utd / Liverpool meet, one of them has to lose. That's when the light hearted gloating gets taken to heart and the riots kick off.

Are you for real?

do you have any idea how much these fans hate each other?

I'm not talking about daytrippers from London/Oslo/Dublin etc, i'm talking about the fans who have travelled all over England and Europe following their team.

this is not people in a pub/on a messageboard having a bit of craic, both sets of fans despise everything about the other.

there will be nothing light hearted at any point about the trip.

both sets of fans will kick off before, after and during the game unless they are properly segregated and policed - in the city, in the ground and in all the airports.

thats just the problems posed by the two sets of fans, add in a corrupt police force, local hooligans, mafia ... and that final really would be a disaster.

ibh

iregk wrote: »

Really mature comment there. So those of us that have been supporting them over 20 years dont count do we not?

Sorry iregk, but i was seriously only joking.. I neglected to use a smiley, but in future i will..

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

Neil, move the **** on, the incidents your refering to are literally ****ing decades ago. I'd be properly pissed off if i didnt know you were a sound.

And if the comments you are refering to are the ones from Gailliard after the CL final, they were actually rubbished by Platini and Uefa who distanced themselves from that clown.

I'm finished participating in this conversation before i say something i regret.

I know they were ages ago but I was more pointing out that there isnt a high ground here. Liverpool fans have, bar the Athens bull, behaved excellently in recent years. So I wasnt trying to have a go.

I was more defending the idea that United are just a bunch of thugs which was what was seeming to be implied because I have a big problem with that statement.

Yes I was referring to those comments which the PR machine at UEFA put to rest but he did say it and he's still there so I doubt his feelings have changed. Hence the unsympathetic ststements he made in that article. Again, I thought what he said was stupid so this isnt a dig at Liverpool, Im trying to explain why I think he's made such an unsympathetic and brash statement about fans being intoxicated in Red Square etc.



By the way, I actually think that a United Liverpool final could be trouble free if it were policed properly. They met in the FA Cup Final in 96, the Carling Cup Final in 02 (i think) and there'd have been as many fans at those games as there potentially could be in Moscow so with the right policing arrangements it COULD be ok but I duno if Zee Russians are the best for making that happen.

Malice

Mr Alan wrote: »

this is not people in a pub/on a messageboard having a bit of craic, both sets of fans despise everything about the other.

Are you saying supporters of one team on message boards or in pubs can't despise supporters of another? If so I'd have to disagree.

ibh

Tauren wrote: »

So they went to Rome with little trouble, great. How about Athens? The Michael Shields story from the previous final? How about their behaviour at OT for the FA Cup semi at Old Trafford? How about trying to knock over the ambulance carrying Alan Smith? I'll admit that not all united fans have been angelic in the incidents highlighted (ideally there would have been no reaction to the Roma provocation, no black hoody gits at OT, no fake tickets at Lille), but i'll not agree that they are particularly worse than Chelsea/Liverpool fans. Didn't 'boro fans travel to Rome and some got stabbed? Didn't the same happen with Arsenal a few years ago? You'd think the Roma fans were innocent victims to the antics of thousands of thugish United fans the way some go on.

Again, I'm NOT saying the liveprool fans as a group are worse than United fans, or any other fans, i'm arguing that ALL english teams have their trouble making element, be it hooligans looking for a fight, people with a bit to much drink and a short fuse when they get missiles thrown at them or 'rascals' trying to see the game for free - and to single United fans out, as the poster i replied may have ment to do, is wrong.

Yea i know too well that all fans have a bad element that are pretty much impossible to remove and shouldn't be tolerated in this day and age.. I was sickened the time of the Alan Smith incident as it was clear for all to see that the lad had a serious injury and although i wasn't expecting pool fans to shed any tears for him, a little respect would have gone a long way.

I wasn't saying that in Rome Utd fans caused or deserved trouble. All i said was that whenever Liverpool have faced Italian opposition in Italy they have had absolutely no trouble, why do other teams go (Manu Boro leeds etc) and can't avoid being attacked by local fans?

I think in Europe for the foreseeable future English teams will always suffer from their reputation re hooliganism..

Mr Alan

Tauren wrote: »

The Michael Shields story from the previous final?How about trying to knock over the ambulance carrying Alan Smith?

Michael Shields is nothing to do with football. He was done for attempted murder in Bulgaria. even if he had have been guilty, it would be a non-football related thing.

And the Alan Smith ambulance, is a non-story.

There is/was CCTV footage available online by the way for the Utd incident in the Roma match. It was not as you said. both fans were firing missles at eachother, but then Utd charged the barricade, the police reacted, albeit, heavy handidly.

(stupid point-edited out)

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

Michael Shields is nothing to do with football. He was done for attempted murder in Bulgaria. even if he had have been guilty, it would be a non-football related thing.

And the Alan Smith ambulance, is a non-story.

There is/was CCTV footage available online by the way for the Utd incident in the Roma match. It was not as you said. both fans were firing missles at eachother, but then Utd charged the barricade, the police reacted, albeit, heavy handidly.

Your also leaving out the Rome 4 in your list of Utds offences.

The Riot police being only on the united side of the fence was not a problem then, so only one set of fans could be 'delt' with? If the ambulance story is a non-story, then so is the Rome 4 - they didn't go to the game and had nothing really to do with the United support.

How about pissing on, and throwing cans of crap (how did they get it in to the can is another thing...) at United fans then - angelic liverpool fans? How about punching opposition players in the back?

United fans have been involved in trouble. Liverpool fans have been involved in trouble. Chelsea fans have been involved in trouble. Yet only the United fans cause problems?

Mr Alan

point out where i said only Utd fans cause trouble please Tauren....

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

point out where i said only Utd fans cause trouble please Tauren....

THATS WHAT THIS FREAKING DEBATE HAS BEEN ABOUT! It is how it started and what is being argued.

Mr Alan

its not how it started, it started with ibh saying that if Utd get to the final there will be trouble (as its definate all english), i threw my hat into the ring when neil came out with this gem....

Deleted User wrote: »

Given UEFAs problem with the English teams stems from Liverpool fans breaking the barriers in Athens and all that

You and Neil seem to be arguing against something no one ever said.

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

its not how it started, it started with ibh saying that if Utd get to the final there will be trouble (as its definate all english), i threw my hat into the ring when neil came out with this gem....



You and Neil seem to be arguing against something no one ever said.

No, I am arguing against what Pal said, not IBH. That if United got to the final there would definately be trouble (with no clarification as to why exactly that would be the case)

Mr. Presentable

gimmick wrote: »

Moscow seems an odd choice, and given the fact it will be most likely 2 premier league clubs involved, it will make travel all the more difficult, certainly price wise.

Who do people think will be involved, and who will win?

I think it will be Liverpool Vs Man Utd with the latter win 3 - 0.

Alan, Tauren, Neil et al, this is the topic for discussion, not which club has the worst hooligan element. Not my job to police the forum, but ffs stop being so threatened all the time. Oh, and my prediction is, given I don't know who'll win, that an English club will lose.

Mr Alan

Tauren wrote: »

That if United got to the final there would definately be trouble (with no clarification as to why exactly that would be the case)

because then there would be two English clubs in the final.

Mitch Connor

Mr Alan wrote: »

because then there would be two English clubs in the final.

But that is not what was said, is it Alan? That is ONE of the implications you can take from what was said, and an implication that I agree with. However, accepting that as what Pal ment, without any further clarification, is the same as considering the one I was arguing against.

So, to say I am arguing against something that was not said is rather impotent, as it was as much said as the other implication.

Mr Alan

ok.

well that was wat i took from pals post. and i usually dont need much to view Utd in a negative light

Deleted User wrote: »

Given UEFAs problem with the English teams stems from Liverpool fans breaking the barriers in Athens and all that

this on the other hand cant really be interprated any other way.

PHB

United and Liverpool have a lot of plastic fans, United more so because their stadium is bigger.

Their away supporters are the most dedicated. Their European away supporters are even moreso.

However, United won't be sending those. They've made it only applicable to season ticket holders, (in a desperate attempt to increase season ticket sales next season) which excludes an awful lot of the more hardcore fans which have been priced out (but you can go to Euro aways for relatively cheaply, and also you don't have to fork out a grand up front)

Anyway, the point I'm making is that I doubt that United fans who would be most willing to get into trouble will be getting tickets. Normally they'd travel, but Moscow is a bitch.

Xavi6

Any chance of moving the 'my team have bigger thugs than your team' comments to another thread? It's gone way OT and is frankly pointless.

Mitch Connor

its not way off topic - it is a discussion of possible problems to be encoutered in the Champions League final, should United make the final, and where the trouble would stem from. And also, no one has been arguing one group is worse then another, the argument has been to counter that assumption, which may or may not have been made.

eZe^

Xavi6 wrote: »

Any chance of moving the 'my team have bigger thugs than your team' comments to another thread? It's gone way OT and is frankly pointless.

Thats it, I just contacted the Australian Barcelona Penya and their on their way to kick your head in a burn your Xavi jerseys. :p:p

UnitedIrishman

PHB wrote: »

United and Liverpool have a lot of plastic fans, United more so because their stadium is bigger.

Their away supporters are the most dedicated. Their European away supporters are even moreso.

However, United won't be sending those. They've made it only applicable to season ticket holders, (in a desperate attempt to increase season ticket sales next season) which excludes an awful lot of the more hardcore fans which have been priced out (but you can go to Euro aways for relatively cheaply, and also you don't have to fork out a grand up front)

Anyway, the point I'm making is that I doubt that United fans who would be most willing to get into trouble will be getting tickets. Normally they'd travel, but Moscow is a bitch.

To be fair, if United get to the CL final against Liverpool then those hardcore supporters will travel to Moscow whatever the cost. Miss the opportunity of a lifetime, of seeing their side beat their biggest rivals on and off the field in the biggest tournament of them all? Not a chance.

PHB

Except, except, the trip is going to cost at a min a grand, probably more. That's if you book flights now, by the time the semis come around, the flights could be upwards of 2 grand.
Then you have the issue with visas, and the fact that the club have screwed them over, and I'd say a lot of people would rather watch the match in a pub in manchester.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

this on the other hand cant really be interprated any other way.

Em, Gaillard (sp?) made that comment last year after the Athens and has since shown little sympathy for the issues raised on this thread about VISAs etc. So my assumption is that he still feels the same way and the PR face save from Platini etc did nothing to change his view. It wasnt a dig at Liverpool at all, it was me saying why I think Gaillard is being so cold about it.

Pal

Deleted User wrote: »

It was a stupid thing to say without explaining what he meant by it.

Given UEFAs problem with the English teams stems from Liverpool fans breaking the barriers in Athens and all that. None of the English clubs have angelic supporters, lets get that outta the way now. But to single one set out is just dumb and stirring the pot on here to be honest.

How is it 'stupid' ?

It is rather simple. If United get to the Final, they will play another English team. This combination will cause trouble. Go figure.

valor

To qualify for the champ league final : 1k on Barca v 1.5k on Man U

Which is the better line if I can bet either way?

LuckyLloyd

valor wrote: »

To qualify for the champ league final : 1k on Barca v 1.5k on Man U

Which is the better line if I can bet either way?

I think it's closer than 1.5 : 1 so I would see better value in backing Barca on those terms even if I reckon Utd will sneak it over the two legs.

Malice

valor wrote: »

To qualify for the champ league final : 1k on Barca v 1.5k on Man U

Which is the better line if I can bet either way?

Bet on Barcelona. UEFA won't want two English clubs in the final and Abramovich will have already lined a few pockets to ensure his club gets through .

Green Giant

kenco wrote: »

Any one planning to go over for the game should note that kick off time is a quarter to 11 to cater for the west euro tv audiences!

I presume that equates to 7:45 here. I need to know cos a friend of mine was wondering if it would be on early like most Moscow-based Champions League games and he has something else on at 8pm the day of the final.

citytillidie

All European Cup Finals kick off at 20:45 CET which is 7:45pm here