Dab Radio

garrincha62

Got a DAB radio. RTE Choice pulls an awful lot of their material from the BBC-world news, documentaries and radio 4 shows. Which is some consolation for not getting all the BBCs...

LordSutch

I wish RTE would stop switching between 'RTE-CHILL' & 'RTE-JUNIOR' - I sometimes enjoy the mellow sounds of 'CHILL' late at night, then low and behold the next morning the Station has 'morphed' into 'Junior' - It really annoys me :mad:

But I guess the DAB Stations are still in 'Test Mode' .................

L1011

Camelot wrote: »

I wish RTE would stop switching between 'RTE-CHILL' & 'RTE-JUNIOR' - I sometimes enjoy the mellow sounds of 'CHILL' late at night, then low and behold the next morning the Station has 'morphed' into 'Junior' - It really annoys me :mad:

But I guess the DAB Stations are still in 'Test Mode' .................

Its a time sharing service. It will *always* be RTE Junior in the morning while this is the arrangement.

I suspcet they don't see the need for chillout in the daytime. Neither would most....

LordSutch

MYOB wrote: »

Its a time sharing service. It will *always* be RTE Junior in the morning while this is the arrangement.

I suspcet they don't see the need for chillout in the daytime. Neither would most....

Ah, come on now MYOB, on a Saturday morning hoping to be lulled into waking by some soothing hypnotic chill out sounds, only to get some silly kids songs banging away!!! - I think most people would rather the former (if RTECHILL is their scene).

Jip

Is it just my reception or is Phantoms DAB signal fairly poor ? When music is playing it's not too bad but when a DJ is speaking is sounds like they're at the bottom of a very deep hole, every other station is perfectly fine.

More Music

Not a reception problem, DAB either works or it doesn't, as you're finding with the other stations.

Compare it to FM when the DJ speaks. Do you notice the same problem?

Jip

Whoops, I understand DAB either works or it doesn't, I actually phrased that post quite poorly. What I meant was is it just me or does everyone else who listens to Phantom think the same.
I don't have FM tuned in on my DAB unit but do on another and the FM broadcast is better. it's fine when a DJ speaks.

SimonMaher

Jip wrote: »

Whoops, I understand DAB either works or it doesn't, I actually phrased that post quite poorly. What I meant was is it just me or does everyone else who listens to Phantom think the same.
I don't have FM tuned in on my DAB unit but do on another and the FM broadcast is better. it's fine when a DJ speaks.

Thanks for the heads up on that one. Will take a look and see whats going on there.

Cheers,
Simon
www.phantom.ie

More Music

Fair play there Phantom, OTB.

If the problem doesn't exist on FM, then more than likely the problem is with the codec used to send audio to the DAB Mux. Something changed on those STL-IP's units maybe. Also, they might have seperate audio processing for DAB, might need a wee tweak.

Jip

Simon Maher wrote: »

Thanks for the heads up on that one. Will take a look and see whats going on there.

Cheers,
Simon
www.phantom.ie

Cheers Simon, I had actually originally intended on posting this on the Phanton forum but came across this thread which had new posts added so thought I'd add it here if it's active.
And don't worry, it hasn't stopped me listening !

Stephen

Any sign of DAB extending to any other parts of the country?

Big Tone

Stephen wrote: »

Any sign of DAB extending to any other parts of the country?

RTE say they will not fully commit to it until more independent operators sign up to DAB so until that happens, if it ever happens, then there will be no nationwide DAB coverage and in these ecomically challenging times its unlikely it will happen in the next year or two.

Channel 4 in the UK have suspended plans for 4 Digital DAB stations that were due to launch in January but due to the downturn in advertising they have pulled out of the deal.

DMC

Also, we await the full outcome of what Comreg and the BCI have planned for introduction of licensing for DAB here.

Details here.

LordSutch

One thing that worries me about the whole DAB changeover thing is the tightening of border transmissions!

Currently I can drive around in the Republic between North Dublin & 'The North' and receive all the BBCs on my car radio loud & clear in 'FM Stereo', but I get the impression that when 'DA'B replaces 'FM' the signal will promptly stop at the border :cool:

I also worry that the mw & lw signals will also be switched off in favour of DAB only, hence No BBCs in the Republic (outside of cable) ............

Anyone any comments or ideas?

More Music

Why are we so obessed with getting BBC or UK radio stations in Ireland? I read a post elsewhere asking if BBC would be available on DAB in Limerick.

Just look at the amount of coverage given to the BBC/Ross/Brand non story on Newstalk, RTE and Today FM.

Nearly all BBC services can be got on the interweb or satellite. (Yes I know, useless if driving).

thelurch

You can buy a little external boosted car ariel in maplins, ups the dab stations to 78 to include all the bbc plus most of the western uk stations. 29.99 euro, a steal !!:D Even MEEEErsey side radio (calm down our kid ) !!

Geology

I'd love to have a DAB radio to listen to in work or driving. Where I live I can't get decent broadband so that takes interweb out of the equation. I have to be in the sitting room hogging the TV if I want to listen to radio in there.

DAB is dead in the water though. Radios are too expensive and there are actually people living outside the confines of Dublin and Cork who might like to listen in.

L1011

DAB radios are 'too expensive' if you're too poor to have a radio, tbh. I've seen then on sale for as little as €24.99. Even Argos - not the bastion of cheapness - have them for €39.99

http://www.argos.ie/static/Product/partNumber/5005567/Trail/searchtext%3EDAB.htm

LordSutch

thelurch wrote: »

You can buy a little external boosted car ariel in maplins, ups the dab stations to 78 to include all the bbc plus most of the western uk stations. 29.99 euro, a steal !!:D Even MEEEErsey side radio (calm down our kid ) !!

Hi 'thelurch', and thanks for the above, but can you (or any other poster) please clarify that you can actually pick-up all the BBCs (DAB) in the car driving around Ireland with the simple addition of a €29.99 Maplins aerial?

The reason I question it is because I live in South Dublin & I have an expensive €150 DAB Clock Radio plugged into a thirty foot roof Aerial, and it has difficulty picking-up some of the 20 local Irish Stations - never mind the BBCs . . . . .

And yet, you think I will be able to get the BBCs on DAB driving around? (Thanks in advance).

Enda Caldwell

Take a look here:

http://www.danydaversa.com/wifi-receiver.html

Surely paying over the odds for some technology that will eventually become obsolete is pointless??

Can anyone tell me hand on heart whether or not DAB be here in 20 years from now? Well? Will it?

I have listeners tuning in to me online on special Wi-fi setups. This is growing. DAB is NOT standardised in EU or most other places. Wi-fi works the world over.

barneyeile

More Music wrote: »

Why are we so obessed with getting BBC or UK radio stations in Ireland? I read a post elsewhere asking if BBC would be available on DAB in Limerick.

Just look at the amount of coverage given to the BBC/Ross/Brand non story on Newstalk, RTE and Today FM.

Nearly all BBC services can be got on the interweb or satellite. (Yes I know, useless if driving).

Totally agree with you. People seem to forget that the UK is a foreign country! Why should we be looking for their channels all the time. I mean BBC on DAB in Limerick, mad or what!

LordSutch

Well barneyeile, sorry to say that the reality is, people in the Republic have a long tradition of listening to BBC Radio, & even watching BBC Television (foreign or not as the case may be)! and as you can see from various other Radio Threads, the BBC is very popular in Ireland - and why shouldnt it be.

BBC programmes (Radio & TV) are renowned the World over, so I dont see why 'we' living on the island next door shouldnt have a look & a listen if & when we want to . . . .

Shame Jonathan Ross isnt on tomorrow night

More Music

Enda Caldwell: Surely paying over the odds for some technology that will eventually become obsolete is pointless??

I don't €35 is over the odds. All technology will eventually become obsolete. That's what happens with technology. If I bought a radio today knowing it might not work in 20 years time that wouldn't bother me too much. Who's to say Wi-Fi won't be obsolete in 20 years. I'm not too bothered that my 32" CRT TV is 6 years old and has been replaced by LCD or Plasma technology.

Enda Caldwell: DAB is NOT standardised in EU or most other places.

I think you will find DAB there is a DAB standard: http://www.worlddab.org/public_documents/EBU_WorldDMB_Digital_Radio_Receiver_Profiles_Press_Release_12Sept08.pdf

On the BBC thing, it's not that I see UK as a "foreign county", they are our neighbours after all. It's just that I don't see why we should use our resources to roll out the British Public Service Broadcaster across Ireland. Yes I see the irony too, the BBC developed DAB, but I don't want to see them on it here! Really though, it's never going to happen.

Jip

Regarding wi-fi radio, I find the sound is usually quite poor anyway.

LordSutch

I am beginning to wonder "Might DAB Radio get shelved 'sooner' rather than later" by the BBC?

Here we are now, several years into DAB transmissions & ongoing testing, and yet it has not really taken
off in any Big way or replaced 'FM' in as the main source for listening to Radio in Britain & Ireland ............

I actually think my FM Radio (signal & reception) is better than DAB, add to that the 'all or nothing' quality
of the DAB signals, and it just makes you wonder - why turn off the 'FM' transmitters in 2010/ 2012

Firetrap

Yeah, I think DAB might not happen, unfortunately. I think with a new technology, you need to convince people that what they have isn't good enough and that embracing something new will give them something better. With digital TV, there's a tangible difference (better picture/more channels) whereas with radio, FM is perfectly fine for most people. I think for a lot of people, the radio's a thing they turn on in the kitchen in the morning when they're heading to work, company in the car and perhaps something to listen to in work as background noise. Seeing as they can't even get digital TV right in the country, I'm not going to hold my breath for radio.

L1011

Enda Caldwell wrote: »

Take a look here:

http://www.danydaversa.com/wifi-receiver.html

Surely paying over the odds for some technology that will eventually become obsolete is pointless??

Can anyone tell me hand on heart whether or not DAB be here in 20 years from now? Well? Will it?

I have listeners tuning in to me online on special Wi-fi setups. This is growing. DAB is NOT standardised in EU or most other places. Wi-fi works the world over.

You're rather "broken record" on this Enda.

WiFi works ONLY where there is access to broadband internet. Is that the world over? In my arse it is. Its not even Ireland. Its not in cars. Its not on the move (3G doesn't do what it says on the tin). And it too will become obsolete.

And as has been explained to you already, DAB is an EU standard. It was developed as such from the very off - EUreka 147 being the original project name. If you're going to slate something, get your facts right please.

Enda Caldwell

MYOB wrote: »

You're rather "broken record" on this Enda.

WiFi works ONLY where there is access to broadband internet. Is that the world over? In my arse it is. Its not even Ireland. Its not in cars. Its not on the move (3G doesn't do what it says on the tin). And it too will become obsolete. - Says who? It may be redeveloped or become expanded upon but right now it is here.

And as has been explained to you already, DAB is an EU standard. It was developed as such from the very off - EUreka 147 being the original project name. If you're going to slate something, get your facts right please.

Someone already told me I was wrong, so, did you not read that? - In fact it is YOU now who are being rather 'broken record' on this point.

Mea culpa MYOB, I am a mere Plebb in your towering presence!
Just think of me as Baldrick in the Blackadder series, sir.
Having worked with the Digital Radio Strategy team at RTL for over 2 years on the DRM project I am not entitled to put forward my humble opinion and some of the experience gained while there.

Point taken and I am the first to put my hand up and say that I was wrong (within one month and a half of the standardisation of Eureka 147 mind you!).
Certain people I know had been complaining and other Digital Radio strategists I know saying that it was not standardised (which until last month it officially was not). We tried a 40,000 watt DRM transmission from Berlin with RTL Radio Luxembourg. Do you know of anyone who listened to it? (It was audible in daylight hours in the middle of Tullamore, Co.Offaly.
I know of someone who had a DRM Radio. The results were poor.

Internet is poor in places like Ireland and Italy in my experience, but actually really rather good in Luxembourg, Germany, France and USA.
So, maybe first we need to lobby to get better internet and by that time the mobile devices will be up to scratch to recieve Wi-fi radio?
How long would it take to lay fibre-optic cable the length and breadth of Ireland?! And, why was it not done with all the money that was spent on THE BANANA?

And furthermore as we are entering what is now hailed to be the 'worst recession in years' companies like Texas Instruments up the road from me here in Monaco are laying off people left, right and centre.
The demand for DAB radios and Digital Radios is NOT at the very forefront of people's minds right now. They will most likely NOT buy a Digital radio as they are saving for a holiday in 2009 - a luxury most will be least likely to sacrifice EVEN within a recessionary period.

I've heard Wi-fi radio sound great, DAB sound great too... it's all only acting until we see how this whole thing pans out.

There is a supply and demand issue here.

The people will go 'I already have a radio'.... then the manufacturers will say: 'The people still want conventional FM radios more so let's not make a bunch of white elephants in DAB sets' - that was the case with DRM - even from a prototype perspective. DAB is in the UK many years now and as far as I know the majority of people still listen to Steve Wright on an FM radio... the majority. There are still many more years left in FM, it is not dead yet. And here in France they certainly are not getting het up about switching over to DAB.. partly because they are not relying on the likes of RTE and the BCI to make up their minds 'what to do about DAB'. You will find it progressing nicely alongside FM and AM transmissions - similar to the UK. Only in Ireland folks, only in Ireland. I will speak to an actual Digital Strategist over the weekend and confirm whether or not they are continuing to bother spending more money in RTL on DAB ok?
I think RTL should know a little bit more than RTE on this issue as they at one stage had 1.2 million watts on AM listened to by half of Europe? Should they not?

Radio|Man

Radio: Someone still loves you

For reasons too difficult to quantify, Ireland’s love for radio has
held up in the face of an ever-changing media landscape.
Because of this Ireland should be well disposed to the arrival of
digital radio but recent international experiences and changing market
realities are causing doubts over the potential for a digital future.
According to the latest JNLR/TNSmrbi poll, over 80% of people
asked had listened to their radio on the previous day. While the over
35s category was the most loyal with a listenership of 87%, those aged
15+ were only slightly less enthusiastic with 83% tuning in.
In a country with near-blanket penetration of television sets, a
rising number of broadband connections and an obsession with
games and mp3 players, this is an impressive statistic. It also makes
the regular arrival of new radio stations more understandable.
Of course this constant stream of new stations can only go on for so
long – but that is arguably more to do with limited frequency space
than market saturation. Enter digital radio.
“Digital radio is not going to be taking over from FM any time soon
but it’s something we’re really excited about taking the next step on –
we’re treating it like it’s something new and experimental,” says Sarah
Martin, press and communications at RTÉ Radio.
Put simply, digital radio works by packing more information into
the airwaves than analogue signals are capable of doing. This can
mean the quality of the signal is better, there can be more room for
multiple signals or there can be space made for other information –
like details of the song being played - to be sent alongside the audio
signal.
With the right receiver you can even pause, record or rewind the
live broadcast too.
There is currently a digital trial running in parts of Leinster, Cork
and Limerick using the DAB (Digital Audio Broadcasting) standard and
once this ends on November 30th it will be replaced by a more
permanent service from RTÉ. It is too early to say if commercial
broadcasters plan on launching digital stations too, or whether
listeners actually want them.
“From the off we’ll be using a lot of the rich resources that we have
to hand in RTÉ but over time it will develop, change and evolve,” says
Martin. “There have been fears in the industry that all we’ll do by
launching more stations is cannibalise our own market but we think
media is becoming more and more focused and this is an extension of
that.
“You’ll have the likes of 2FM playing more general music for a wide
audience, and then its sister stations on DAB playing a more specific
genre.”
RTÉ’s initial plans include three music stations; ambient electronica
station Chill, alternative station 2XM and dance station Pulse; RTÉ
Junior, which is aimed at 2 – 12 year olds and RTÉ Choice which will
repeat Radio 1’s content at different times, replay archived
programming and relay international broadcasts.
Despite the scale of these plans the DAB service will remain a niche
project for RTÉ with just 0.05% of the overall radio budget expected to
be spent on the platform for now.

DAB has been the
standard of choice for many European
countries including the UK, which is far more
advanced in its digital radio plans than Ireland. It has hit a rocky
patch, however with Channel 4 recently pulling out of its ‘Digital4’
consortiums’ DAB plans as a means of saving £10m (€12.7m). UTV
Radio was a 10% shareholder in the Digital4 group and it, along
with companies like BSkyB, is now left deciding how it can proceed
without the main player.
The problem in the UK has been a distinct lack of public interest
in the format, despite the huge amounts of money invested by the
BBC into the technology’s rollout. So why is Ireland so keen to
follow suit?
“In spite of Channel 4 we’re encouraged by the overall market
development across Europe; earlier this year a UK working group
proposed the analogue switch-off for 2020 so it’s clear that they’re
confident in DAB too,” says Martin.
DAB itself is also an aging format, one that is being replaced in
countries like Germany by the DAB+ standard which is said to
resolve many of the issues created by its predecessor. The UK itself
is even planning a slow conversion to DAB+, although it has the
legacy issue of over 6 million incompatible DAB units to deal with
first.
“Our biggest priority was making sure we could give choice to the
consumer and the fact that there were over 300 different types of
DAB sets out there it was the obvious choice – also we wanted to be
compatible with the North’s digital radio system,” says Martin. “It’s
entirely possible that Ireland will switch to the DAB+ standard over
time, though, and that wouldn’t be difficult for RTÉ to do – it would
really come down to the manufacturers of the radios.”
Incompatibility between DAB and DAB+ may not be a concern
for much longer, however. A recently-announced agreement means
that a standard has been created for the technology which will
allow for multiple types of digital radio signal to be received
seamlessly, removing much of the potential for obsolete devices in
the future.
“This is really the development many have been waiting for –
particularly car manufacturers,” says Ms. Martin. “Once we start to
see digital radio sets appear in mass produced cars it will be the
turning of the tide in terms of digital radio’s success; the car market
is crucial.”
However the standards do not really matter if the content is not
there to get the listener interested. Whether broadcasters like RTÉ
can deliver compelling and commercially viable stations will only
become apparent in time.

Enda Caldwell

Radio|Man wrote: »

Radio: Someone still loves you

For reasons too difficult to quantify, Ireland’s love for radio has
held up in the face of an ever-changing media landscape.
Because of this Ireland should be well disposed to the arrival of
digital radio but recent international experiences and changing market
realities are causing doubts over the potential for a digital future.
According to the latest JNLR/TNSmrbi poll, over 80% of people
asked had listened to their radio on the previous day. While the over
35s category was the most loyal with a listenership of 87%, those aged
15+ were only slightly less enthusiastic with 83% tuning in.
In a country with near-blanket penetration of television sets, a
rising number of broadband connections and an obsession with
games and mp3 players, this is an impressive statistic. It also makes
the regular arrival of new radio stations more understandable.
Of course this constant stream of new stations can only go on for so
long – but that is arguably more to do with limited frequency space
than market saturation. Enter digital radio.
“Digital radio is not going to be taking over from FM any time soon
but it’s something we’re really excited about taking the next step on –
we’re treating it like it’s something new and experimental,” says Sarah
Martin, press and communications at RTÉ Radio.
Put simply, digital radio works by packing more information into
the airwaves than analogue signals are capable of doing. This can
mean the quality of the signal is better, there can be more room for
multiple signals or there can be space made for other information –
like details of the song being played - to be sent alongside the audio
signal.
With the right receiver you can even pause, record or rewind the
live broadcast too.
There is currently a digital trial running in parts of Leinster, Cork
and Limerick using the DAB (Digital Audio Broadcasting) standard and
once this ends on November 30th it will be replaced by a more
permanent service from RTÉ. It is too early to say if commercial
broadcasters plan on launching digital stations too, or whether
listeners actually want them.
“From the off we’ll be using a lot of the rich resources that we have
to hand in RTÉ but over time it will develop, change and evolve,” says
Martin. “There have been fears in the industry that all we’ll do by
launching more stations is cannibalise our own market but we think
media is becoming more and more focused and this is an extension of
that.
“You’ll have the likes of 2FM playing more general music for a wide
audience, and then its sister stations on DAB playing a more specific
genre.”
RTÉ’s initial plans include three music stations; ambient electronica
station Chill, alternative station 2XM and dance station Pulse; RTÉ
Junior, which is aimed at 2 – 12 year olds and RTÉ Choice which will
repeat Radio 1’s content at different times, replay archived
programming and relay international broadcasts.
Despite the scale of these plans the DAB service will remain a niche
project for RTÉ with just 0.05% of the overall radio budget expected to
be spent on the platform for now.

DAB has been the
standard of choice for many European
countries including the UK, which is far more
advanced in its digital radio plans than Ireland. It has hit a rocky
patch, however with Channel 4 recently pulling out of its ‘Digital4’
consortiums’ DAB plans as a means of saving £10m (€12.7m). UTV
Radio was a 10% shareholder in the Digital4 group and it, along
with companies like BSkyB, is now left deciding how it can proceed
without the main player.
The problem in the UK has been a distinct lack of public interest
in the format, despite the huge amounts of money invested by the
BBC into the technology’s rollout. So why is Ireland so keen to
follow suit?
“In spite of Channel 4 we’re encouraged by the overall market
development across Europe; earlier this year a UK working group
proposed the analogue switch-off for 2020 so it’s clear that they’re
confident in DAB too,” says Martin.
DAB itself is also an aging format, one that is being replaced in
countries like Germany by the DAB+ standard which is said to
resolve many of the issues created by its predecessor. The UK itself
is even planning a slow conversion to DAB+, although it has the
legacy issue of over 6 million incompatible DAB units to deal with
first.
“Our biggest priority was making sure we could give choice to the
consumer and the fact that there were over 300 different types of
DAB sets out there it was the obvious choice – also we wanted to be
compatible with the North’s digital radio system,” says Martin. “It’s
entirely possible that Ireland will switch to the DAB+ standard over
time, though, and that wouldn’t be difficult for RTÉ to do – it would
really come down to the manufacturers of the radios.”
Incompatibility between DAB and DAB+ may not be a concern
for much longer, however. A recently-announced agreement means
that a standard has been created for the technology which will
allow for multiple types of digital radio signal to be received
seamlessly, removing much of the potential for obsolete devices in
the future.
“This is really the development many have been waiting for –
particularly car manufacturers,” says Ms. Martin. “Once we start to
see digital radio sets appear in mass produced cars it will be the
turning of the tide in terms of digital radio’s success; the car market
is crucial.”
However the standards do not really matter if the content is not
there to get the listener interested. Whether broadcasters like RTÉ
can deliver compelling and commercially viable stations will only
become apparent in time.

So, how does this differ from what the UK are doing?

Source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008/oct/20/digitalmedia-digitaltvradio-ofcom-creditcrunch

The new government minister in charge of a string of vital decisions about Britain's media and technology industries has claimed that the importance of securing their future has increased due to the global financial crisis.
Stephen Carter, who was appointed to the new role of minister for communications, technology and broadcasting earlier this month and reports to both the culture secretary, Andy Burnham, and the business secretary, Peter Mandelson, vowed to accelerate decision-making in a number of key areas.
"Whatever is going to happen to the macro-economy, we can all agree that, in the short- and possibly medium-term, the financial services sector is going to take some time to restructure," said Carter, in his first interview since taking the job. "So, from a UK plc perspective, this is an important sector and it becomes relatively an even more important sector."
Carter, the founding chief executive of the media regulator Ofcom, who most recently spent a turbulent 10 months as Gordon Brown's chief of strategy and principal adviser, will draw together work in existing areas of government and has promised to deliver swift conclusions on a number of pressing issues. These include the future of digital radio, the questions surrounding the next generation of broadband access and mobile phone networks, and the future funding of public-service broadcasting.
His report, Digital Britain, will also consider issues around the digital divide and look into whether there should be a guarantee of universal access to broadband for all consumers. He has promised to deliver a set of recommendations by January.
Carter said it was a "unique opportunity" to set the direction of the broadcasting, technology and communications industries over the next five years.
"While we have a converged regulator, the machinery of government is still separated," he said. "That was the rationale behind having a ministerial responsibility across the brief, and having someone who knows something about it."
Carter's appointment to the new role was openly welcomed by Ofcom, where executives feel a number of key policy areas have now reached a point where they require urgent government action.
But it is likely to be viewed with some trepidation by the BBC, which has been fighting a public battle with the regulator over the idea of potentially using the so-called "surplus" licence fee to fund a looming funding crisis among its public-service rivals.
"We're very good at this stuff in this country. The things that drive us mad because the tubes are crowded are actually rather good if you're looking at networks. You've got highly dense populations in a relatively small geography. Network density is a good thing. That's one of the reasons why we have such a rich free-to-air broadcast heritage," said Carter, who is also the former UK chief executive of the cable company NTL.
"English is an advantage, let's not underestimate that, and we're a nation of wordsmiths and creative people. We're as good at the poetry as we are at the pipes," he said. "There is an opportunity to take an international lead as the major economy in the world that is seen as a leading powerhouse in and across these industries."
While he was at Ofcom, broadcasters would sometimes complain that Carter was more concerned with building broadband networks than with safeguarding the future of public-service broadcasting. But he said last week that the two must go hand in hand.
"These are all important questions. But I always think it depends on how you come at them," he said. "If the first question you ask is how to preserve regional news on broadcast television, that feels a pretty narrow way of entering the discussion. But that doesn't mean you can't enter it in a broader way and ask what it means for those things."
He added: "I have spent nearly 10 years of my life working in and around this subject. I think broadband is commercially, socially, culturally, economically and politically transforming.
"You have to look at the issues the other way around. We are now at a point where we have to get that right, or we might end up preserving the past."
Carter said that after years of debate and discussion on issues such as public-service broadcasting, the time had come for decisions to be made. His conclusions will fall into three "baskets": some that can be enacted immediately; others that require modest legislation that can be pushed through before a general election, and other longer-term issues that will have to wait until after 2010.

Enda Caldwell

Here is living proof that Digital Radio Mondiale works:

This piece of footage comes from Germany (although the 208 DRM transmitter is in Marnach,Luxembourg)
Germany:a place where you STILL can drive at ANY speed you like on certain parts of the Autobahn and they have no higher a death rate than ... "Ireland has the worst road death figures in Europe, when it comes to young people, with over one third of those killed on Irish roads under 25. Ireland also has a poor record in use of seat belts".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g0OIUVON4w

Take a look for yourself. DRM would work in Ireland too. There are more Digital technologies other than DAB for RTE to be Pri**ing around with.
I notice that RTE always seem to follow, not lead! And on the issue of encryption TV vs. Free to air same deal.

L1011

I've a DRM radio beside me right now - an Irish one at that (Morphy Richards, an Irish owned company). It receives 0 stations. Its received them in the past, but theres nothing now.

It however receives 21 DAB stations as well as countless analogue ones. A format is all well and good but if nobody uses it, its completely useless. Its not just on this forum either, having seen you do it elsewhere - hence the broken record effect.

Realistically, I don't care where you worked - the entire thing smacks of a willy waving contest, boasting of TX powers - its clear you're entirely set on putting down any possibility of DAB taking off here and pushing "wifi radio" as the alternative.

Moving to internet radio (or 'wifi radio' as you keep calling it, for some reason?) en masse is impractical. There will be huge streaming costs to the broadcaster for a starter. Additionally, if mobile internet reaches a quality where it could work, there will be insane strain on networks, particularly along roadways - 2500 vehicles an hour moving at high speed, jumping from cell to cell, and each requiring 32-128kbits/sec with minimal lag and minimal packet loss? Not gonna happen.

Anyway - you're in Monaco, you're not able to listen to RTE's DAB trials nor are you paying a licence fee for them. Why does it affect you? You seem to spend FAR too much time obsessing over it for someone it cannot affect. As if you've some vested interests in damaging it...

L1011

I've a DRM radio beside me right now - an Irish one at that (Morphy Richards, an Irish owned company). It receives 0 stations. Its received them in the past, but theres nothing now.

It however receives 21 DAB stations as well as countless analogue ones. A format is all well and good but if nobody uses it, its completely useless...

Realistically, I don't care where you worked - the entire thing smacks of a willy waving contest, boasting of TX powers - its clear you're entirely set on putting down any possibility of DAB taking off here and pushing "wifi radio" as the alternative.

Moving to internet radio (or 'wifi radio' as you keep calling it, for some reason?) en masse is impractical. There will be huge streaming costs to the broadcaster for a starter. Additionally, if mobile internet reaches a quality where it could work, there will be insane strain on networks, particularly along roadways - 2500 vehicles an hour moving at high speed, jumping from cell to cell, and each requiring 32-128kbits/sec with minimal lag and minimal packet loss? Not gonna happen.

Anyway - you're in Monaco, you're not able to listen to RTE's DAB trials nor are you paying a licence fee for them. Why does it affect you? You seem to spend FAR too much time obsessing over it for someone it cannot affect. As if you've some vested interests in damaging it... this isn't the first time I've read you (pointlessly) denigrating it.

Enda Caldwell

MYOB wrote: »

I've a DRM radio beside me right now - an Irish one at that (Morphy Richards, an Irish owned company). It receives 0 stations. Its received them in the past, but theres nothing now.

It however receives 21 DAB stations as well as countless analogue ones. A format is all well and good but if nobody uses it, its completely useless...

Realistically, I don't care where you worked - the entire thing smacks of a willy waving contest, boasting of TX powers - its clear you're entirely set on putting down any possibility of DAB taking off here and pushing "wifi radio" as the alternative.

Moving to internet radio (or 'wifi radio' as you keep calling it, for some reason?) en masse is impractical. There will be huge streaming costs to the broadcaster for a starter. Additionally, if mobile internet reaches a quality where it could work, there will be insane strain on networks, particularly along roadways - 2500 vehicles an hour moving at high speed, jumping from cell to cell, and each requiring 32-128kbits/sec with minimal lag and minimal packet loss? Not gonna happen.

Anyway - you're in Monaco, you're not able to listen to RTE's DAB trials nor are you paying a licence fee for them. Why does it affect you? You seem to spend FAR too much time obsessing over it for someone it cannot affect. As if you've some vested interests in damaging it... this isn't the first time I've read you (pointlessly) denigrating it.

You're the broken record posting twice!

I have a Genus DAB radio back home in Ireland, it works, yes. That is not the point! The point is why are RTE not testing all different technologies? They have the resources and revenue to do so? Why not innovate for a change. I am sure that in 5 years there will be a proper MUX system in EIRE - just not sure whether they will end up running with DAB+ or DAB as they currently seem to be 'testing'. Ireland are at least 5 if not 10 years getting on the DAB Groovy train.. The first MUX'es were on the air in late 98 and 99 in the UK.

Why would there be a huge push on to make internet radio available in cars and on phones then? The reason I call it Wi-fi radio as that is what these sets are being sold as. It's what we were promoting alongside DRM. And DRM is just not audible where you are but there are HUGE powers testing it on the continent and BBC are also playing around with it.

Back to WIFI radio as it IS known as in the industry:

Here is an article from last year's Wifi radio review:


September 14, 2007
In car WiFi radio may kill traditional radio listening

Much has been written about the potential of Wireless Internet and the flexibility that comes with more wireless devices and increasing Wi-Fi locations. But what about the impact on traditional radio listening of Wi-Fi or its wide-area cousin, Wi-Max, once the technology is available in-car?
During July/August 2007, Bridge Ratings undertook a broad-based US study of this question by interviewing consumers and device and auto manufacturers to better understand the implications of wireless Internet and the availability of Wireless Internet Radio.
Today 30 million Americans use wireless Internet accessand it will grow to nearly 45 million by the end of 2007. Wi-Fi locations are sprouting up across the U.S. making wireless Internet access a comfortable reality for millions of consumers.
Of the estimated 30 million users of wireless access technology in the U.S., 75% or 23 million have wireless accessed Internet radio. In fact, 48% of those accessing the Internet via wireless technology seek out Internet radio. The number of Internet radio listeners accessing wirelessly will grow to 77 million by 2010 as wireless technology penetrates the average U.S. lifestyle.
ABI Research forecasts that the total number of Wi-Fi-enabled consumer electronics devices will grow from just 40 mln shipped in 2006 to nearly 249 mln in 2011.
Mobile WiMAX customers will grow at an annual compounded rate of 64% between 2009 and 2012, when telecoms embrace WiMAX as a fixed wireless broadband service, according to Pyramid Research.
Wireless Internet use in-car faces hurdles based on Wi-Max technology development, how quickly auto manufacturers are able to equip new cars and what type of early adopter consumer will want the technology.
In Bridge Ratings study of 2200 persons 16+ they asked consumers who define themselves as "innovators" or "early adopters", how likely they would be to buy a car or equip a current vehicle with a wireless Internet device.
By year 5 of in-car Wi-Fi acceptance, traditional radio can expect to see the amount of time spent listening to fall below 19 hours a week and by year 8 when we project that more than 23% of the U.S. public will have adopted wireless Internet technology in-car, weekly time spent listening to traditional radio will fall below 18 hours per week.
During the focus groups that accompanied this study, monthly subscription costs was of lesser concern than the quality and variety of available content. It was generally assumed that the monthly cost of satellite radio and in-car Wi-Fi reception of Internet Radio would be comparable. Yet, those who currently subscribe to satellite radio expected to listen less if they had wireless Internet radio in their cars or they would cancel their satellite radio subscription.
The availability of wireless Internet in-car poses a signficant threat to traditional as well as satellite radio. This study projects that the growth of Wi-Fi in-car should reach more than 50% of the U.S. population after nine years of market availability.
It is important to note that adoption by the masses of new technologies is often slower to penetrate the mass market. New technologies take time to be widely adopted and it is important to note that innovators and early adopters who jump on new technology often receive an inordinate amount of press which quickly raises awareness of the adopted technology.
The adoption of in-car Internet service and the spread of Internet radio across all consumer types will begin to be a factor 9-10 years after market introduction.
Diffusion of technology through to the mass market, rather than the innovation ultimately determines the pace of acceptance and this is the reason for the generally long growth pattern you see in this report's projections.
Nonetheless, the results of this study show that early adopting consumers are looking forward to Wireless internet in-car and current listeners of Internet radio have a very high probability of adopting the technology when it becomes available and is affordable.



I still take an interest in Irish radio from abroad, I have no vested interest as such but I am entitled to my opinion. Thank GOD I don't have to pay the ripoff TV licence anyway! And furthermore, it is great to get most channels on Freeview over here these days. Apart of course from RTE who are encrypted up to the gills!!



Just take a look back MYOB at the level of intelligence within RTE and the way they as a public service broadcaster in a supposed democracy dealt with the Superpirates like Nova and Sunshine 25 years ago. To think they actually built jamming stations. But you seem like someone who would defend that kind of behaviour?

Radio|Man

Enda Caldwell wrote: »

Here is living proof that Digital Radio Mondiale works:

This piece of footage comes from Germany (although the 208 DRM transmitter is in Marnach,Luxembourg)
Germany:a place where you STILL can drive at ANY speed you like on certain parts of the Autobahn and they have no higher a death rate than ... "Ireland has the worst road death figures in Europe, when it comes to young people, with over one third of those killed on Irish roads under 25. Ireland also has a poor record in use of seat belts".


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g0OIUVON4w

Take a look for yourself. DRM would work in Ireland too. There are more Digital technologies other than DAB for RTE to be Pri**ing around with.
I notice that RTE always seem to follow, not lead! And on the issue of encryption TV vs. Free to air same deal.

Whilst I was going to argue some of your points contained within this thread, I am glad that you saved me the bother. Having read the above post, it proves that you know very little, if not nothing at all of what you talk about. Perhaps I can suggest searching the forums before posting as this argument is a long time DEAD, much like the technology you talk about.

FYI-RTE did test DRM-and it sucked.

LordSutch

Enda Caldwell wrote: »

Here is living proof that Digital Radio Mondiale works:

This piece of footage comes from Germany (although the 208 DRM transmitter is in Marnach,Luxembourg)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6g0OIUVON4w

I am very impressed with your indepth knowledge of all things Radio Enda, but I am sorry to say that the (DRM Utube segment) that you have supplied sounds like a 'Medium Wave' signal . . . .

Dunno if thats down to a faulty recording, or if DRM really is substandard - when compared to FM or DAB ?

L1011

I'm not quoting Enda's stupidly long post, just answering it here.

The double post is because Boards was having database problems at the time I was replying - the initial reply appeared not to take, so I pasted it in again.

RTE have tested DRM as Radio|Man has said. This is why I bought a DRM receiver. They ran DRM from 252 every night for months as well as other time periods, and ran SW DRM during the All-Ireland Finals this year and last.

BBC DAB National launched in 1995, by the way. RTE tested DAB in the 1990s - and they were not allowed proceed with it as a full service. They proceeded it with it at the first moment the regulators let them - nothing to do with them delaying it. Barring a not particularly long outage between trial licences, RTE DAB has been on-air for 34 months now.

I'm going to agree with Radio|Man - you're making it clearer and clearer you haven't got a clue what you're talking about.

mk6705

Camelot wrote: »

I actually think my FM Radio (signal & reception) is better than DAB, add to that the 'all or nothing' quality
of the DAB signals, and it just makes you wonder - why turn off the 'FM' transmitters in 2010/ 2012

A 2010/2012 switch off is not on the cards in either Ireland or Britain! I mean if it was I'd personally lead a protest to the Dáil! An analogue TV switch off is on the agenda in Britain alright, not sure about Ireland.

As for the quality of DAB, well it's compressed audio, FM isn't. And on DAB they're trying to squeeze in lots of stations and this compromises the bitrate and in turn compromises the quality. Personally I'm not running for a DAB receiver, despite the fact I have no DAB coverage. I still won't be running when it's rolled out here, but I may get a receiver out of curiosity.

L1011

We have a proposed analogue TV switch-off date of 2012 too. I doubt it will happen, what with no public launch of DTT (as opposed to the UK's launch of free DTT versions of their five channels in 1997/1998 and mainstream launch of it as a 'free' system in 2002) to date.

FM audio quality in Ireland is abysmal - heavily dynamically companded to make it "loud", meaning that proper DAB feeds (such as RTE and Phantom have) actually sound far better than the FM feeds.

Enda Caldwell

MYOB and Radio Man,

DRM and DRMplus are alive and well.
They are FAR from dead as technologies.
I was well aware of the 252 DRM tests and was waiting for you to "point that out" to me!

For continued reading into this interesting debate please read this link:

http://www.drm.org/news/detail/news/drm-demo-in-kaiserlautern/

DRM is being tested still on many different platforms in many countries.
The DRM tests were on AM from Marnach on 1440 AM yes,
I have seen these DRM rigs in operation. They are amazing to see in operation. Anything that uses less power and allows you to target places like Paris with huge ERP makes big commercial sense. RTL Group are a business and have voted for DRM. RTE are just seeming to do the usual sheepish knee jerk "tests" I expected them to do.

I have never claimed to know everything and am neither for or against any format or transmission system, I would just like to see people look outside Ireland to what other countries are doing at less cost and with better, more effective results. Lets just see who is right or wrong in 4 years or so when the whole thing pans out and we see what is the most popular technology.

L1011

If you were well aware of them, why did you say RTE should be trialling DRM?

Also, how is it "amazing" to see a DRM rig in operation when they are effectively identical to analogue MW transmitters? Which are far from amazing to see.

In 4 years time, there will still be minimal DRM receivers on the market, there will likely be more DAB+ capable units available (I've got one in my car as-is) though. For multiple stations and nationwide mobile coverage, DAB/DAB+ is far cheaper than DRM as well as having the ability to provide far higher audio quality.

DRM is designed to replace short wave/medium wave. DAB is designed to replace FM.

LordSutch

MYOB wrote: »

DRM is designed to replace short wave/medium wave. DAB is designed to replace FM.

I must agree with Myob on this issue, from what I have heard of DRM it does tend to sound more like a MW/LW signal ..............

Enda Caldwell

Then neither of you have heard it on FM!

And furthermore, a DRM transmitter has a brain or management system (similar to a rally car) which means it is certainly NOT identical to an analogue rig!

L1011

Enda Caldwell wrote: »

Then neither of you have heard it on FM!

If you mean 'broadcast on VHF Band II' - as FM SPECIFICALLY refers to analogue frequency modulation - I've not heard it. As this isn't yet standardised and consumer receivers do not support it. This allows for FM quality audio due to higher spectrum use, but with absolutely none of the spectrum and power savings of DAB - basically giving us worse than what we had in 1995 but with pricier receivers.

Enda Caldwell wrote: »

And furthermore, a DRM transmitter has a brain or management system (similar to a rally car) which means it is certainly NOT identical to an analogue rig!

The actual transmitters are identical. RTE used the exact same Continental's that were delivered for Atlantic 252 in the late 1980s for their DRM tests.

What you're rather simplistically refering to as the 'brain' is just a computer system - not the transmitters

Once again, you're making it painfully obvious you don't know what you're talking about. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing when someone thinks they're an expert off it.

Enda Caldwell

MYOB wrote: »

If you mean 'broadcast on VHF Band II' - as FM SPECIFICALLY refers to analogue frequency modulation - I've not heard it. As this isn't yet standardised and consumer receivers do not support it. This allows for FM quality audio due to higher spectrum use, but with absolutely none of the spectrum and power savings of DAB - basically giving us worse than what we had in 1995 but with pricier receivers.



The actual transmitters are identical. RTE used the exact same Continental's that were delivered for Atlantic 252 in the late 1980s for their DRM tests.

What you're rather simplistically refering to as the 'brain' is just a computer system - not the transmitters

Once again, you're making it painfully obvious you don't know what you're talking about. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing when someone thinks they're an expert off it.

"Off it"? What sort of English is THAT then??

Actually, RTE may well have used the same transmitters but there has to have be modifications made to convert any Analogue or Solid State AM transmitter and aerial system to digitise it so to speak before it will work. And I stood in Junglinster with RTLs Chief Of Transmission who actually showed me that the Digital DRM differs from the Analogue transmitter in its very usage of a computer based management system.

By the way it was RTL who supplied those original 2 x 300kw AM Continental rigs for Atlantic 252. They have the receipts to prove.
RTL are the specialists in AM not RTE. The Great 208 anyone?

DRM has been tested with great effects for the digitisation of the FM band and if you check the DRM website you will find out more about these recent test in Germany. It is not only AM Quality it also allows high quality.

Get off your high horse MYOB! I never said I was any kind of expert.

Have you actually stood in the transmitter halls of RTL Junglinster? Have you witnessed THEIR DRM rigs working? Well then stop having a go at me.

Fuzzy Clam

MYOB wrote: »

The actual transmitters are identical. RTE used the exact same Continental's that were delivered for Atlantic 252 in the late 1980s for their DRM tests.

Its actually a Tram 300L.
The Continentals were scrapped prior to the DRM tests.

Enda, the audio quality would be the same whether it's transmitted on low, medium or high frequencies as the encoding is identical. However, there are several modes of "robustness" which affects the quality. I'd say that SW broadcasters may use the most robust setting which is lower in quality.
I don't understand why anybody would want to transmit DRM on VHF anyway when you already have DAB.. The main advantage of it is to transmit a digital signal over a huge area using just one sender.

L1011

Theres nothing wrong with the English there - you have a little knowledge in this area, more than the average joe would, but off the back of it you seem to assume yourself to be an expert.

Enda Caldwell wrote: »

Get off your high horse MYOB! I never said I was any kind of expert.

In not so many words, you did. You've boasted about who you've worked for and where you've been / what you've seen. Like you did in that very post.

I never said RTE bought the AM transmitters at Summerhill. It appears I was wrong that they are the original ones; but they are just AM transmitters. They look no different when operating AM than DRM, other than some unused equipment - which is in no way huge or complicated.

Fuzzy Clam - thanks for the correction there. Enda referring to better sound quality of DRM over VHF (DRM+) is likely down to the far wider carriers used in tests to date, as well as lower protection modes. I believe up to 700kbits/sec can be extracted from the same spectrum as an analogue FM station.

However, very poor SFN support means that it still ends up with inferior spectrum usage than DAB - 1.6Mhz of Band III gives you the capacity for ten FM quality stations on DABv2 across an entire country the size of the UK, when broadcasting these using analogue FM or DRM+ would require 25Mhz of Band II.

DRM isn't designed to replace FM nor was it originally designed to be broadcast on VHF.

Enda Caldwell

MYOB wrote: »

Theres nothing wrong with the English there - you have a little knowledge in this area, more than the average joe would, but off the back of it you seem to assume yourself to be an expert.



In not so many words, you did. You've boasted about who you've worked for and where you've been / what you've seen. Like you did in that very post.

I never said RTE bought the AM transmitters at Summerhill. It appears I was wrong that they are the original ones; but they are just AM transmitters. They look no different when operating AM than DRM, other than some unused equipment - which is in no way huge or complicated.

Fuzzy Clam - thanks for the correction there. Enda referring to better sound quality of DRM over VHF (DRM+) is likely down to the far wider carriers used in tests to date, as well as lower protection modes. I believe up to 700kbits/sec can be extracted from the same spectrum as an analogue FM station.

However, very poor SFN support means that it still ends up with inferior spectrum usage than DAB - 1.6Mhz of Band III gives you the capacity for ten FM quality stations on DABv2 across an entire country the size of the UK, when broadcasting these using analogue FM or DRM+ would require 25Mhz of Band II.

DRM isn't designed to replace FM nor was it originally designed to be broadcast on VHF.

To quote the Sunday Business Post "future looks uncertain for Digital Radio"
Boast as I might about where I have or have not been, I am no expert but have met a few in the field who seem to tell me that DAB is dead and it's too late for it now. Why would they tell me that then?

Real FM

Well you obviously mustn't have read the Business Post this week. They had to issue a correction because they had made basic mistakes in that article such as rte only offers 5 dab services rather than 9. A month prior to that they printed that dab was only available in dublin.

I wouldn't be too concerned about a publication that makes assumptions based on fact that isn't correct.

More Music

DRM is not and will not be a replacement for FM as we know it. DAB is the current offering and it's all we have. Whether it's DAB or DAB+ is not an issue, that's just a software/codec update on the MUX equipment.

FM will be around for a long-time yet, just like MW still is.

Enda, you do have a habit of name/place dropping. We know you're not working in Ireland, you don't need to keep telling us.

Have you actually stood in the transmitter halls of RTE? Have you witnessed THEIR DAB rigs working? Well then stop having a go at them!