Irish politics are an ideological void?

tbh

TomRooney wrote: »

1) the men of 1916 fought and died for a 32 county Republic not a 26 county free state,

so? Lots of people fought and died for things that never happened. Just because you refuse to recognise it, doesn't mean it's not true. Are you representative of RSF in this respect? It doesn't matter what the majority of people believe, you know better, is that right? If the people of Ireland wanted a 32-county ireland badly enough, they would have it. The simple truth is, they don't care enough. The UK would be out of the north like a shot if they could, which leads me onto your next "fact":

2) Obviously you are unaware that the 6 countys has the fastest growing economy in the "uk" and the highest rate of economic growth. so it would in fact be an asset not a hindrence.

I think you just have a vague notion of what's happening in Northern Ireland.

Here's a fact that's backed up by actual statistics.

From a report available at http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/pesp_cra.htm

Total identifiable expenditure on services by country and region per head
in real terms(1), 2002–03 to 2007–08

England 6,129 6,500 6,761 6,988 7,076 7,302 
Scotland 7,431 7,779 7,828 8,299 8,544 8,894 
Wales 7,231 7,490 7,677 8,010 8,172 8,311 
Northern Ireland 8,254 8,486 8,705 8,910 8,990 9,485

For five out of the last six years, the UK government have spent more per head in NI than in England, Scotland or Wales.

3) the minute you think you are smarter than the majority of people is the minute you have lost your head, i put your simplistic ignorance down to youth if your older than 18, then it is possible you mat be mentaly challenged.

The irony is fantastic.

nesf

TomRooney wrote: »

3) the minute you think you are smarter than the majority of people is the minute you have lost your head, i put your simplistic ignorance down to youth if your older than 18, then it is possible you mat be mentaly challenged.

Next time I see you insult someone like this you'll be banned from the forum.

turgon

TomRooney wrote: »

As far as politics it is I that follow the same political ideology of the men and leaders of 1916.

Sorry buddy, but no you dont. I have clearly articulated this point. One of the main reasons the revolution had so much support was the need for good governance not some idealogical notion of who is what. They were fighting for democracy, where the will of the majority is carried through.

Yet you want the 6-countys transfered to Ireland despite the fact the the majority dont want it. How is this democratic?

TomRooney wrote: »

2) Obviously you are unaware that the 6 countys has the fastest growing economy in the "uk" and the highest rate of economic growth. so it would in fact be an asset not a hindrence.

Prove it, otherwise the point made by the poster after counts. Either way, NI is often considered just a basket case with huge social welfare payments. I think your labeling of NI as an asset proves how out of touch you are with realities on the ground.

TomRooney wrote: »

3) the minute you think you are smarter than the majority of people is the minute you have lost your head

I never said I was smarter than anyone else buddy, I said I was better educated than a few people in Ballymun. I then backed up this point with tangible evidence. So please dont twist my carefully constructed meanings.

TomRooney wrote: »

4) DO NOT EVER THINK REVISIONIST STATE EDUCATION OR ANY EDUCATION eqautes to real intelligence because all the inteligent people know it doesnt

So how do you suggest I get educated on the crisis? I didnt stop on the state education btw, I read a few non-state history books on the side during my stint in secondary school.

TomRooney wrote: »

a few quotes for to ponder mr A2

Well if your going to be titling me based on educational achievements, you may as well mention the other 5 A1s I got in the Leaving Cert. Its only fair.

TomRooney wrote: »

Education is an admirable thing, but it is well to remember from time to time that nothing that is worth knowing can be taught.

So what, the history of the north cant "be taught"? Either that or it isnt "worth knowing"?? Which one??

It makes sense though, people like your fine self always have a problem with people familiar with history as yeer cloudy points are always unearthed to be bull****.

brianthebard

turgon wrote: »

Sorry buddy, but no you dont. I have clearly articulated this point. One of the main reasons the revolution had so much support was the need for good governance not some idealogical notion of who is what. They were fighting for democracy, where the will of the majority is carried through.

Yet you want the 6-countys transfered to Ireland despite the fact the the majority dont want it. How is this democratic?

Where in the proclamation of independence does it say they were fighting for democracy?
Also, can you put a verifiable figure on the amount of support the revolution had?

Permabear

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fugazied

Belfast wrote: »

Socialism tends to lead to dictatorship by beauracy.

I disagree. Bureaucracy can occur in other types of government, and dictatorship/totalitarianism is common in other forms as well.
The only idealogues in which totalitarianism are impossible are true anarchy and libertarianism. Socialism/Communism/Capitalism/Corporatism are all prone to totalitarianism in the exact same way.. It's about shift of power into the hands of the few and why we need to be on constant guard.

Fascism is the merger of government and corporation after all, and that's the direction many countries are heading with massive privatisation and bankrupt governments forced to yield power to corporations. The US is one of the countries most in danger of going fascist in my opinion, and all they can worry about are the dangers of socialism from their new VERY moderate president.

nesf

fugazied wrote: »

Fascism is the merger of government and corporation after all

This is disputed and contentious definition. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Corporatism_and_fascism

It's a common thing to see online but it is unclear whether the merger of Government and Corporate Power is analogous to the Fascist States of the early 20th century.

TomRooney

nesf wrote: »

Next time I see you insult someone like this you'll be banned from the forum.

NESF if I wish to question an infraction a mod may have given it must by PM, i would expect the same level of respect from you in this regard.

ps moderation seems to be fairly one sided on this section, it seems if you go against the status quo, you are singaled out for infractions.

TomRooney

nesf wrote: »

This is disputed and contentious definition. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism#Corporatism_and_fascism

It's a common thing to see online but it is unclear whether the merger of Government and Corporate Power is analogous to the Fascist States of the early 20th century.

there is a difference between fascism and extreme right, fascists want a revolutionary change of state from democracy to fascism, whereas extreme rights advocate a government leaning to the right but whitin a democratic state.

TomRooney

turgon wrote: »

Sorry buddy, but no you dont. I have clearly articulated this point. One of the main reasons the revolution had so much support was the need for good governance not some idealogical notion of who is what. They were fighting for democracy, where the will of the majority is carried through.

Yet you want the 6-countys transfered to Ireland despite the fact the the majority dont want it. How is this democratic?



Prove it, otherwise the point made by the poster after counts. Either way, NI is often considered just a basket case with huge social welfare payments. I think your labeling of NI as an asset proves how out of touch you are with realities on the ground.



I never said I was smarter than anyone else buddy, I said I was better educated than a few people in Ballymun. I then backed up this point with tangible evidence. So please dont twist my carefully constructed meanings.



So how do you suggest I get educated on the crisis? I didnt stop on the state education btw, I read a few non-state history books on the side during my stint in secondary school.



Well if your going to be titling me based on educational achievements, you may as well mention the other 5 A1s I got in the Leaving Cert. Its only fair.



So what, the history of the north cant "be taught"? Either that or it isnt "worth knowing"?? Which one??

It makes sense though, people like your fine self always have a problem with people familiar with history as yeer cloudy points are always unearthed to be bull****.

you havent a clue about history , and have you never been told Profanity is the crutch of the inarticulate. so refrain from using such language when addressing me.

the men of 1916 did not fight for a democracy they fought for a 32 county irish republic, it wasnt called the declaration of democracy, it was called the declaration of INDEPENDANCE.

more proof as if it was needed that the leaving cert means diddly sqaut especialy an A2 in free state history.

you have not shown one piece of tangible evidence kid, show me your statistics for the education levels of the people of ballymun, IMO you should be banned for making such sweeping generalisation of a whole community merely based on there income level.

you are a joke son, i suggest you grow up, i would like to see you air your views directly to a member of the ballymun community, but i would imagine if the oppurtunity for this arose you would skulk away in a cowardly fashion.

also how you maintain 1 and a half million unionists on an island of 5 million is a majority is beyond me, your not doing much to convince me education is worth much. as i said before education does not eqaul intelligence.

• In recent years Northern Ireland has experienced stronger Gross Domestic Product (GDP) growth than the UK average[28] and GDP per capita is now higher than Wales and North East England. As of 2004, the GDP per capita of the Republic of Ireland is €30,414 (141% of the EU-27 average) while in Northern Ireland it is €21,292 (99% of the EU-27 average).[29] A simple calculation using 2004 GDP and population estimates gives a GDP per capita of €27,790 for the whole of Ireland (9% less than that that of the Republic of Ireland). The structural costs of unification are difficult to quantify but are likely to be proportionately less than that of German reunification due to the greater degree of economic integration that exists between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0066cc]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I
• In 2006 The Times estimated that the 2005 net annual "subvention" from London to Northern Ireland was £5 billion, and that the state was responsible for 63% of economic activity there.[30] In January 2007 it was estimated in a government paper to be £6 billion for 2007; outside of the European Structural Funds, this amount would have to be met by the combined economy of a newly-united Ireland merely to maintain current living standards in Northern Ireland.[31] Given the 2008 financial crisis, it is uncertain how long Britain will want to continue the subvention, and also whether the weaker "Celtic Tiger" economy in the Republic will remain strong enough to meet the shortfall. In January 2009 the Northern Irish First Minister described the annual subvention as "inadequate".[32]

Currently about 42% of the Northern Ireland electorate vote for Irish nationalist parties that oppose the union with Great Britain and support a united Ireland as an alternative

A 2006 Sunday Business Post survey reported that almost 80% of voters in the Republic favour a united Ireland: 22% believe that "achieving a united Ireland should be the first priority of the government


is that enough evidence for you kid, it should be considering you have offered nothing but your opinion which doesnt count for much when using facts.

tbh

TomRooney wrote: »

the men of 1916 did not fight for a democracy they fought for a 32 county irish republic, it wasnt called the declaration of democracy, it was called the declaration of INDEPENDANCE.

what's the difference? They fought for self-determination, i.e. the right to ELECT their own government. That's democracy, whatever way you dress it up "kid".

TomRooney

tbh wrote: »

what's the difference? They fought for self-determination, i.e. the right to ELECT their own government. That's democracy, whatever way you dress it up "kid".

theres a big difference, you claim the rising was primarily for democracy which is fals, it was primarily about breaking all connection with britain.

but you seem to gloss over this fact, due in no small part to your hidden agenda i fear.

tbh

TomRooney wrote: »

theres a big difference, you claim the rising was primarily for democracy which is fals, it was primarily about breaking all connection with britain.

but you seem to gloss over this fact, due in no small part to your hidden agenda i fear.

breaking all connections with Britain why? Why did they want to archive? Come on Tom, answer seriously. You accuse me of having a hidden agenda (I'd love to know what you think that is, btw) but the irony is that I seem to have more of an understanding of the rising than you do. You seem to think it was all about stomping on the brits and then maybe figuring out where to go after that. That's clearly nonsense.

brianthebard

tbh wrote: »

what's the difference? They fought for self-determination, i.e. the right to ELECT their own government. That's democracy, whatever way you dress it up "kid".

The Irish inclusion in the parliament at Westminister was also democracy. I find it quite odd that people here must say that the rebels of 1916 were not extremists, and they were fighting for democracy, when its clear that they were extremists and that democracy already existed. I mean, why is it so hard to accept that the founding fathers (as it were) were extremists? By their very politics and revolutionary expression they were extreme, but that doesn't mean it should be a source of shame. I suppose the only reason behind it must be to try and distance the founding of the Irish free state from the troubles in the North. Fair enough, but there's no need to mess with history for that purpose. Argue the difference on its own merits I say.

turgon

TomRooney wrote: »

the men of 1916 did not fight for a democracy they fought for a 32 county irish republic, it wasnt called the declaration of democracy, it was called the declaration of INDEPENDANCE.

They wouldnt have been the need to fight for independence if the system of government they were under wasnt so bad. As donegalfella smartly showed in demolishing one of Brianthebards points, one of the ideals of the revolution was that the Irish would be able to govern themselves through a more thorough democratic for of government.

TomRooney wrote: »

also how you maintain 1 and a half million unionists on an island of 5 million is a majority is beyond me, your not doing much to convince me education is worth much. as i said before education does not eqaul intelligence.

I never said the majority of the whole island wants the north united, I only mentioned the province it self. Where unionists are in majority. So you have no point in the paragraph.

But if your going to insist on this point, is it unfair the way Southern Ireland seceded from the United Kingdom when the majority of the British Isles didnt agree? You should really strive for more coherency in the way you evaluate past and present events.

TomRooney wrote: »

The structural costs of unification are difficult to quantify but are likely to be proportionately less than that of German reunification due to the greater degree of economic integration that exists between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland.

You know the Germans are still paying for unification to this day. So just because Ireland would have to pay "proportionally less" doesnt mean anything at, we would still have to pay humongous sums.

TomRooney wrote: »

The Times estimated that the 2005 net annual "subvention" from London to Northern Ireland was £5 billion, and that the state was responsible for 63% of economic activity there.

But isnt this just supporting my point that it would cost too much?? How is Ireland going to take on a €6 billion a year burden?

TomRooney wrote: »

you have not shown one piece of tangible evidence kid, show me your statistics for the education levels of the people of ballymun

Hmmm, well I cant so bummer. But I can offer statistics on myself if it helps in any way? Sorry if this sounds cocky ... I got in the top 1% of the Leaving Cert students the year I sat it, so can we reasonably say that I did better than most people in Ballymun? Now were we to take a good Leaving Cert as evidence of a good education, then it would appear I was better educated?? Now its your turn to statisticaly refute the fact that I am better educated than most in Ballymun.

Sorry everyone else that TomRooney is forcing me to act all cocky by coming out with my LC results, but I know of no other way to defend myself from certain accusations.

TomRooney wrote: »

you are a joke son, i suggest you grow up....

Your reducing this discussion to tit for tat stuff that I used to engage in when I was in primary school, and its not helping the discussion at all.

Permabear

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brianthebard

Nobody mentioned a specific type of democracy.

Permabear

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Red Hand

"This is your candidate...now for vote for him".

The way the Soviets handled things.;)

tomcosgrave

The reasons why Irish politics is a bit of a void are as follows -
1. Up until now, the two main parties are splits from one party. This is because of the civil war. As long as this continues, little will change.

2. People don't give a sh1t about politics and don't care. They vote the same people in again and again and again - not because they believe they are the best for the country, but because they are the best for them personally. In other words, when it comes to politics, most Irish people are incredibly selfish.

3. Most people don't understand our political system - they don't understand where it came from. People should educate themselves on the issues. Go and read the history books. Read about politics. Go to political party meetings and ask questions. Do it. Don't moan about it, don't say it's a pain in the hole, and why should I bother. Just get on with it.

turgon

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

If only donegalfella was in the dail, he would have Brian Cowen ripped to shreds judging by the way he dealt with democracy and marxism loving brianthebard. And dont worry folks, the "and" there is not a typo surprisingly enough. The depths of brianthebards opinions means he can somehow fight for democracy and communism at the same time. Pretty wierd stuff indeed.

brianthebard

I was fighting for accuracy actually, not democracy or communism.