Fan rivalry, tribalism

Mitch Connor

Taking this from the CL Final thread, cause it is completely off topic there, but something I find interesting.

Mr Alan wrote: »

Are you for real?

do you have any idea how much these fans hate each other?

I'm not talking about daytrippers from London/Oslo/Dublin etc, i'm talking about the fans who have travelled all over England and Europe following their team.

this is not people in a pub/on a messageboard having a bit of craic, both sets of fans despise everything about the other.

there will be nothing light hearted at any point about the trip.

both sets of fans will kick off before, after and during the game unless they are properly segregated and policed - in the city, in the ground and in all the airports.

thats just the problems posed by the two sets of fans, add in a corrupt police force, local hooligans, mafia ... and that final really would be a disaster.

malice_ wrote: »

Are you saying supporters of one team on message boards or in pubs can't despise supporters of another? If so I'd have to disagree.

Now, I can understand hating a rival team, and I can understand having heated arguments over football with fans of rival teams, as football is subjuective and perspectives can be radically different.

However, I could never say I DESPISE Liverpool fans, I have a few mates who support liverpool (ditto Arsenal and Chelsea) and while we would rib each other, and people we meet in pubs that support the other side, there is no real hate there.

So, first off, can you understand why anyone would despise another person purely based on the team they support? Do you feel that way yourself?

Another point, do foreign fans, in general, understand the rivalry between clubs? Can a fan from Seoul, or Sydney really understand the rivalry between United and Liverpool, or Arsenal and Spurs for instance?

DerekD Goldfish

So, first off, can you understand why anyone would despise another person purely based on the team they support? Do you feel that way yourself?

Yes
I dislike certain groups of fans as a group but am friends of rovers,bohs,shells fans on an individual level

Another point, do foreign fans, in general, understand the rivalry between clubs? Can a fan from Seoul, or Sydney really understand the rivalry between United and Liverpool, or Arsenal and Spurs for instance?

No they cant
certinaly not to the extent people living in the city the club is bassed supporting the club their entire life does.

Mitch Connor

DerekD Goldfish wrote: »

Yes
I dislike certain groups of fans as a group but am friends of rovers,bohs,shells fans on an individual level

But then you don't hate the person, you hate the club. Malaice seems to being saying he despises people (which is a rather strong feeling) based on the club they support.

eZe^

Ok, Ill admit I hate everything that Madrid stands for, its just not a message I could personally be happy supporting. This being all the violence and animosity during the civil war, where Franco used Madrid as a tool of propoganda, and banned the speaking of the Catalan language and banning the catalan flag, thats when Barcelona became the voice of a mini nation. The Camp Nou was the only place Catalans could speak their language and express their culture.. (Hence the 'mes que un club' tag)


But all the history aside, I could never say I despise a fellow set of football fans. I also have to respect the teams achievements. Credit where credits due you know. If the only people we discussed football with were fans of the same team, it would be so dull. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Plus, every now and then you need a rival teams fan to show some objectivity, I myself sometimes hate how biased your fellow fans can be. At least other teams fans can drop you down a peg or two every now and then.


Its also important to highlight NO team in football has angelic fans, there will ALWAYS be fans that shame the name of the club, whether it be the Boixos Nois and their nazi beliefs. Its just something you have to deal with when a club has millions of fans, its just because fans will come from a diverse number of social and economic backgrounds, therefore some will have more extreme attitudes to supporting their club.

eZe^

eZe^ wrote: »

Ok, Ill admit I hate everything that Madrid stands for, its just not a message I could personally be happy supporting. This being all the violence and animosity during the civil war, where Franco used Madrid as a tool of propoganda, and banned the speaking of the Catalan language and banning the catalan flag, thats when Barcelona became the voice of a mini nation. The Camp Nou was the only place Catalans could speak their language and express their culture.. (Hence the 'mes que un club' tag)


But all the history aside, I could never say I despise a fellow set of football fans. I also have to respect the teams achievements. Credit where credits due you know. If the only people we discussed football with were fans of the same team, it would be so dull. Variety is the spice of life and all that. Plus, every now and then you need a rival teams fan to show some objectivity, I myself sometimes hate how biased your fellow fans can be. At least other teams fans can drop you down a peg or two every now and then.


Its also important to highlight NO team in football has angelic fans, there will ALWAYS be fans that shame the name of the club, whether it be the Boixos Nois and their nazi beliefs. Its just something you have to deal with when a club has millions of fans, its just because fans will come from a diverse number of social and economic backgrounds, therefore some will have more extreme attitudes to supporting their club.

I have to agree with you. I have a very soft spot for Barca and at one point they rivalled United as my #1 team. And for the same reason as yourself I began to hate Madrid. this grew into my despising Madrid due to their arrognace and the way they conduct themselves in the transfer market....see their latest attempts to unsettle C. Ronaldo.


Liverpool fans get at me cos I used to work in a bar where it was almost entirely Liverpool fans and the abuse I got from them solely based on being a United fan was unreal and extended to remarks made about my family, one idiot threatening violence to em (he got barred for that at least) etc which goes outside of football. I wasnt the only non Liverpool fan working there but one thing we all have in common is that there is no love for Liverpool in any of us.

I dont hate people based on who they support though. Thats just ridiculous. I know fans of United who I hate cos theyre idiots. Just cos they support the same team as me doesnt mean Ill like them. Same goes for fans of rival teams, just cos u support Liverpool or Madrid ect doesnt mean I have to hate you. It just means less football chat!

Mr Alan

we never had any problem chatting about football neil

eZe^

No no, I dont mean to say I hate Madrid with all my heart. I hate what the club stands for (well, what it stands for in my mind). I have nothing but respect for their achievements, and some of the players they have housed, Raul, Di Stefano, Puskas, Redondo, Roberto Carlos, Zidane, Ronaldo, etc...

I enjoy having a discussion with their fans if they dont resort to the immature stupid remarks. I agree with you though, I would never dislike a fan for the club they follow, I would dislike them for the way they conduct themselves.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

we never had any problem chatting about football neil

Of course not! But then neither of us have the kind of personality where we would hold back!

On eor two of my mates are a bit sensitive about it all though and it turns into bitter rows so its just avoided getting too deep into it, although i did watch the last United-Liverpool game with him and hew went home in a huff! made up for it though cos the last time Id watched that fixture with him was the Carling Cup Final!!

Malice

Right, since it appears to be my comment that has sparked this thread, I'd better respond. Please excuse what will probably be a long rambling post.

I think the word despise was probably a little excessive. It certainly looks like that when highlighted . Maybe "intense dislike" would have been better. I've been following football for a long time and I have met plenty of idiots (both followers of the same team as me and others). There seems to be a high percentage of glory-hunting fans following certain other teams and unfortunately it's precisely those fans which seem to be the most vocal when it comes to utterly moronic comments. These comments will be present whether you're watching a match in the stadium, in a pub or getting updates through a message board.

For years I've had "discussions" with other fans over incidents like Hillsborough for example but for every fan who gets the message, there seems to be five more who insist on sticking to the Sun-fabricated version of events.It's generally Man Utd fans that annoy me the most but paradoxically, some of my best friends are Man Utd fans. I have vivid memories from primary school of slagging off one of my mates when Kevin Moran got himself sent off in the FA Cup final in 1985 .

I was about to go on a rant about how much I hate Man Utd but I doubt that would lead to a sensible discussion . In essence I intensely dislike most of the fans because come across as hypocritical, know-nothing loudmouths. I dislike the manager because of his attitude, I dislike the players because of their arrogance and I dislike the club because it symbolises the corporate money-driven game that football has become.

Before anyone attacks me, I realise that you could turn it on it's head by substituting Munich or Harold Shipman for Hillsborough and say something about living in the past and the argument would then work in reverse .

estebancambias

Tribalism is great in football. I wouldn't say I despise anyone but I really hate England as a collective, even though the layman English person can be good.

Its not just hahahah England got beaten on Penos, I just never want to see them play in a match in a major tournament. Its not banter. I despise what England stood for. There are still elements which disgust me. Put it this way if I ever got the chance to play against England at any level I couldn't give a **** if I got a red card.


I also hate Man Utd fans.


Nuke em' all I say.



Oh and of course those fans can, especially the United vs Liverpool match. The only reason thats a rivalry is because they were both succesful. Its not like Celtic vs Rangers, Boca vs River Plate, Lazio vs Roma or Madrid vs Barca.

malice_

malice_ wrote: »

For years I've had "discussions" with other fans over incidents like Hillsborough for example but for every fan who gets the message, there seems to be five more who insist on sticking to the Sun-fabricated version of events.It's generally Man Utd fans that annoy me the most but paradoxically, some of my best friends are Man Utd fans.

Before anyone attacks me, I realise that you could turn it on it's head by substituting Munich or Harold Shipman for Hillsborough and say something about living in the past and the argument would then work in reverse .

Harold Shipman? Please tell me what the hell a seriel killing doctor has to do with football...or did I miss something? And how in gods name does that relate to a disaster like Hillsborough?


Its not Hillsborough that fans normally associate with a negative view on Liverpool, its Heysel. Hillsborough was a tragedy sparked by poor terracing and the disorganised nature of policing football at the time.

Mr Alan

its both pretty equally equally Neil. They have (had) dedicated Hillsborough songs, dont know of any Heysel ones.

Malice

Deleted User wrote: »

Harold Shipman? Please tell me what the hell a seriel killing doctor has to do with football...or did I miss something.


Its not Hillsborough that United fans normally associate with a negative view on Liverpool, its Heysel. Hillsborough was a tragedy sparked by poor terracing and the disorganised nature of policing football at the time.

It's been my experience that it's Hillsborough that gets referenced. The usual rubbish about robbing the dead. I agree that that may not actually be true for the majority of Utd fans. I'm not sure about Shipman but either he was based in Manchester or many of his victims came from there. There's a song written to the theme of "London Bridge is Falling Down" song called "Harold Shipman Killed Your Nan". There's also a song called "There's Only One Harold Shipman". Here's Wayne Rooney's brother singing it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WG3jDFW4SA

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

its both pretty equally equally Neil. They have (had) dedicated Hillsborough songs, dont know of any Heysel ones.

Hmmm, from my personal point of view Hillsborough was a tragedy caused by the old terracing arrangements and letting too many people in etc. Why anyone would want to sing derogatory songs about that is beyond me.

I understand that there were elements to blame like the fans who came to the ground without tickets and the alleged "robbing from the dead" (from that highly reliable source of the Sun) but 96 people died and that was predominantly caused by poor policing and crowd control.

PHB

Hesyel references are more popular in Old Trafford.

A song you'd hear a lot is 'We've won it two times, we've won it two times, without killing anyone, we've won it two times'

That song is probably the most common reference to Liverpool you'll hear.

--

p.s. While saying you hate certain fans or groups is fine, there is a line that should not be crossed into abuse. Just like the which player do you hate threads, the forum rules still apply

This thread got me to read a bit more about it and I came across this....pure class...huge respect to Milan.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZrVfMRyoE0

Mr Alan

Funny how Utd fans have no problem admitting that song is sung now, despite only the other week trying to tell me it was in reference to Michael Shields and never sung.....got a fine airing the other night against Roma too.....guess people realised they were wrong about that and now see it as preferable that its about Heysel and not Hillsborough, imo, its about both.

there is also "you killed your own fans" to the same melody.

Mr Alan

its that the final in 89 neil where they sang YNWA?

Killme00

I know alot of Utd fans who hate Liverpool more than they love Utd which is pathetic. Same goes for Liverpool fans. My future father in law is a Liverpool fan and a prime example of this syndrome.

I lived in Scotland for four or five years and i can honestly say i hate Scotish football and everything it stands for. Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen have the most pathetic, ignorant, inbred and racist sets of fans i have ever encountered. The amount of violence i witnessed in five years in Scotland was more than i have ever seen in over 20 years of visiting Old trafford and following Utd. Tribalism goes too far too often and is a pathetic excuse to have a scrap for most of the young hoolie fans around today.

Mr Alan

Mr Alan wrote: »

Funny how Utd fans have no problem admitting that song is sung now, despite only the other week trying to tell me it was in reference to Michael Shields and never sung.....got a fine airing the other night against Roma too.....guess people realised they were wrong about that and now see it as preferable that its about Heysel and not Hillsborough, imo, its about both.

there is also "you killed your own fans" to the same melody.

Well, the thing is there are 2 other songs that have the EXACT same tune as that which get sung more often lately. Thats where I maintain its not sung as often as you think. The last time i heard it was at Villa Park vs Watford for the semi final right after "You are My Solksjaer" but it probably got sung at OT against liverpool Id say even though all i heard that day was "Viva Ronaldo" over and over again! The other 2 are:


"He plays on the left,
He plays on the right.
That Boy Ronaldo,
Makes England look ****e!"

- Which gets a go every single game now.


And:

"We've won it nine times,
We've won it nine times,
Six more than anyone,
We've won it nine times!"

- In reference to the Premiership trophy which was more comon at that start of the season...now that it'll hopefully be changed to 10 and 7 its not as prevalent the last few months!!

Mr Alan wrote:

its that the final in 89 neil where they sang YNWA?

It is indeed. Still no youtube access in there? Thats the great thing about where I am now man, can look at everything!

Mr Alan

Thats amazing (The Milan fans)

The song was sung against Roma the other night Neil. Definate.

Malice

Killme00 wrote: »

I know alot of Utd fans who hate Liverpool more than they love Utd which is pathetic. Same goes for Liverpool fans.

You are absolutely right, that is pathetic. I really hope there aren't too many people like that around.

Gavin "shels"

Personally I don't other stand how people can "hate" other teams fans, really I think it's more of a passsion. As an Shelbourne fan who attends all home games and nearly all away games, I don't hate the opposing fans, but moreso I live life by Shelbourne therefore you get the rivalry it makes you hate the opposing fans. If anyone understands what I'm trying to say.

Look at it this way, Oirish Celtic "fans" who attend a few games a year haven't a clue of the level of rivalry with Rangers, it means nothing to them, rivalry is all about a connection with a team, supporting them when times are tough and the football is sh*t, how can a daytripper experience it.

The passion of travelling say gives you the passion to hate, you've just travelled say 6 hours on a coach to a match, you're going to give it to the opposing fans and players, it's a game of football not cricket.;)

A Dub in Glasgo

Killme00 wrote: »

I lived in Scotland for four or five years and i can honestly say i hate Scotish football and everything it stands for. Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen have the most pathetic, ignorant, inbred and racist sets of fans i have ever encountered.

Generalise much?

A Dub in Glasgo

Gavin shels wrote: »

Look at it this way, Oirish Celtic "fans" who attend a few games a year haven't a clue of the level of rivalry with Rangers, it means nothing to them, rivalry is all about a connection with a team, supporting them when times are tough and the football is sh*t, how can a daytripper experience it.

What about the weegie who goes to a few games a year? Doe he understand it? what about the Irish Celtic fans who attend every game, do they understand it?

All I see is more generalisations about what you perceive rather than a meaningful statement

Eirebear

Killme00 wrote: »

I lived in Scotland for four or five years and i can honestly say i hate Scotish football and everything it stands for. Hearts, Hibs, Rangers, Celtic and Aberdeen have the most pathetic, ignorant, inbred and racist sets of fans i have ever encountered. The amount of violence i witnessed in five years in Scotland was more than i have ever seen in over 20 years of visiting Old trafford and following Utd. Tribalism goes too far too often and is a pathetic excuse to have a scrap for most of the young hoolie fans around today.

Rubbish.

I have plenty of Celtic supporting mates, and they in turn have plenty of Rangers supporting mates outwith me.

The fact that Glasgow is smaller in both population, and in size/sprawl than Manchester also makes a difference...

Oh yeah and two key phrases you used, "I Lived" in scotland for 4 or 5 years"
"20 years of VisitingOld Trafford..."

shane86

estebancambias wrote: »

Tribalism is great in football. I wouldn't say I despise anyone but I really hate England as a collective, even though the layman English person can be good.

Its not just hahahah England got beaten on Penos, I just never want to see them play in a match in a major tournament. Its not banter. I despise what England stood for. There are still elements which disgust me. .

Mostly agree, although tbh it is fun watching them get knocked out of tournaments

Ive always hated Utd because I see them as an offshoot of the English team/support, the only difference being more success and less hooliganism (and its hardly zero either. Ive never bought all this wah wah the foreign cops beat us up for nuffink jazz but anyway). Apart from that, the chants, the cockyness, lack of respect for other teams and their achievements, it has always been a bit too much three lions white jersey for me tbh.

Having said that anyone from outside the teams home city getting too excited about it needs to get a grip, all teams included.


And jaysus, enough already with the EL attacking the Celtic fans again They seem to have more of a gripe with Irish fans of Celtic than Irish fans of English teams.

They are a side with Irish roots.

Although only moderately successful lately in Europe, they still do better than Irish sides.

Build a wall and get over it. Be happy an Irish rooted team actually give Europe a fair crack.

invincibleirish

I hate Manchester & Liverpool, as towns despite lots of *re-generation* they sre still what they are, north of England urban holes, apoligies if you are from there but they are really dreary! London FTW!

Mr.Nice Guy

I would not say I despise any group of fans. There are things that annoy me about certain fans (such as the arrogance you see in a lot of English supporters about their team's chances) but I'd never despise a bunch of people. I think being prejudiced about a group of people, sport or not, is to have the mentality of an idiot and I would hate to wind up being such a hate-filled individual.

raheny red

In general, I despise fans of Pats Rovers and Bohs. In no particular order of course

estebancambias

shane86 wrote: »

Mostly agree, although tbh it is fun watching them get knocked out of tournaments

Ive always hated Utd because I see them as an offshoot of the English team/support, the only difference being more success and less hooliganism (and its hardly zero either. Ive never bought all this wah wah the foreign cops beat us up for nuffink jazz but anyway). Apart from that, the chants, the cockyness, lack of respect for other teams and their achievements, it has always been a bit too much three lions white jersey for me tbh.

Having said that anyone from outside the teams home city getting too excited about it needs to get a grip, all teams included.


And jaysus, enough already with the EL attacking the Celtic fans again They seem to have more of a gripe with Irish fans of Celtic than Irish fans of English teams.

They are a side with Irish roots.

Although only moderately successful lately in Europe, they still do better than Irish sides.

Build a wall and get over it. Be happy an Irish rooted team actually give Europe a fair crack.

Yep exactly.


And about Celtic, I agree they are culturally an Irish club. I don't support them but supporting them makes sense. Football elitism means that Celtic Irish fans get grief for following them, and I talk about people like eirebhoy, and bleedin' Darren who wears the Celtic tracksuit and jersey.

I'm sure there are other clubs in the world who have a strong following from people outside the actual country.

Gavin "shels"

estebancambias wrote: »

I agree they are culturally an Irish club

Founded by an Irishman, lets have a party sure. British club, playing in Scotland and owned by an English PLC.:rolleyes:

A Dub in Glasgo

Founded by Irishmen for the benefit of the Irish immigrant community in Glasgow. Celtic has evolved into something more than just a football club. When this is related about a certain giant of La Liga, everybody drools over it. When related about Celtic, some people [here] seem to go ape **** and denigrate the club, it's history, it's tradition and it's fans & supporters. This is especially true of some of the eL mafia who appear to have a chip the size of Ireland on both shoulders regarding peoples choice of team they like to support.

Celtic is a Scottish club with Irish roots, playing in Glasgow and owned by shareholders.

Dub13

invincibleirish wrote: »

I hate Manchester & Liverpool, as towns despite lots of *re-generation* they sre still what they are, north of England urban holes, apoligies if you are from there but they are really dreary! London FTW!

Some people myself included are the opposite and hate London.

Collie D

Dub13 wrote: »

Some people myself included are the opposite and hate London.

I'm with you on that. Cockneys tend to rub me up the wrong way. North of England ftw

Eirebear

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Founded by Irishmen for the benefit of the Irish immigrant community in Glasgow. .

And was sold to publicans less than a year later.........


I dont have an issue with celtic in general celebrating its Irish roots.
But it is far from an irish club, and the majority of fans couldnt find the country on a map....yet claim to be Irish make me laugh.

Dub13

Eirebear wrote: »

But it is far from an irish club, and the majority of fans couldnt find the country on a map....yet claim to be Irish make me laugh.

I am no Celtic lover but this is an exaggeration if I ever saw one.

Sherifu

Tauren wrote: »

So, first off, can you understand why anyone would despise another person purely based on the team they support? Do you feel that way yourself?

No, I find it very stupid tbh.

lordgoat

Sherifu wrote: »

No, I find it very stupid tbh.

+1 to this.

As stupid as living in the past and hating england for all it stood for! Ridiculous, grow up and move on.

Eirebear

Dub13 wrote: »

I am no Celtic lover but this is an exaggeration if I ever saw one.

yes it is Dub...you tend to find that expressions such as that are exagerations.
Just for your benefit ill keep things literal from now on ok?

shane86

Gavin shels wrote: »

Founded by an Irishman, lets have a party sure. British club, playing in Scotland and owned by an English PLC.:rolleyes:

Going by that logic any EL club founded before independance was technically a British football club pre 1922. As for the English PLC, Chelsea, Man Utd, Man City, Liverpool, Derby, Sunderland, all clubs which are fully or largely non English owned.

Eirebear wrote: »

I dont have an issue with celtic in general celebrating its Irish roots.
But it is far from an irish club, and the majority of fans couldnt find the country on a map....yet claim to be Irish make me laugh.

:rolleyes: Do your Celtic mates know you have this big of a chip on your shoulder about them?

Seeing as one of the gers supporters clubs in Dublin is called Behind Enemy Lines, it seems to me the blues identify Celtic as Irish at least as much as Celtic fans themselves, maybe even more so.


I dont religiously follow the SPL. In fact, I dont follow it at all really. But I do like to see Celtic give it a good whack in Europe and I always back them against whoever they are playing.

Why? Because as Billy McNeill said, they are an Irish club who happen to be based in Scotland.

Dub13

Eirebear wrote: »

yes it is Dub...you tend to find that expressions such as that are exagerations.
Just for your benefit ill keep things literal from now on ok?

Good man.

Eirebear

shane86 wrote: »

:rolleyes: Do your Celtic mates know you have this big of a chip on your shoulder about them?

My Celtic supporting mates know that i despise the club they support yes.....does that make me a bad person? :rolleyes:

shane86 wrote: »

Seeing as one of the gers supporters clubs in Dublin is called Behind Enemy Lines, it seems to me the blues identify Celtic as Irish at least as much as Celtic fans themselves, maybe even more so.

The gers supporters club is actually called the Dublin Loyal RSC, the Behind Enemy Lines banner came from a newspaper report on them in one of the Irish daily newspapers.....

shane86 wrote: »

Why? Because as Billy McNeill said, they are an Irish club who happen to be based in Scotland.

:rolleyes::rolleyes: And Billy McNeil happened to be an Irishman who happened to be born, lived, worked, retired and represented Scotland too yeah?

Dub13 wrote: »

Good man.

No Bother