Chinese people's protest

lonesome

Thirdfox wrote: »

Indeed - if it so chooses to self-censor itself then since we live in a more free society than in China (let us not forget that no Chinese person will argue that it's less free in Ireland) we can criticise the media and put forward our own views.

And if chooses to give half-truths and misinformation, well, we can react to that too. Chinese propaganda and "free media" (what you call it) propaganda is still propaganda at the end of the day - just because they willingly choose to distort the situation doesn't make them any less culpable (and if I may argue, they are in fact more so).

well, it just proves that the Western Free Media as ugly as Chinese official grip

Thirdfox

But I believe in better for "Free Media". They have a duty to act better than their Chinese counterparts if they want to have the ability to criticise others (and I see the BBC shifting their editorial position very recently, I believe that's an encouraging sign).

I would rather live in Ireland than China, no doubt about it. But that doesn't mean Ireland is perfect or its systems infallible. And when it fails we have a democratic duty to help it restore its integrity and principles.

Oh and I'm Irish by the way (although a lovely lady did tell me I'm not "really" Irish today )

yawtin

Cliste wrote: »

bad/evil/etc CIA !=(not equals) good China

You are right, China is far away from being good. But it is improving all the time. And what do you mean by China here? Its people or its government? If it is the government you are refering to, at least it has most people's support. If it is the people you are talking about, then thank you very much, I appreciate your command.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

You are making the protest a joke with such silly statements, where is the evidence for the CIA in Darfur? What exactly would their motive be?.

Oil and politics, and probably money too. China's influence in Africa has been so big now that African people can finally bargain with the European Colonizers now. I hope you do remember that a French NGO was accused for human trafficing Darfur childen for european people to adopt, and that they purposefully exaggerated the situation there so they can sell their babies more quickly.

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I am very glad I live in a country where democracy exists and you can protest so freely, about any issue just be grateful for that and the fact your own goverment does not allow it.

I suppose it is hard for you to image how much we can actually protest on the internet in China. Our central government does try to get more democracy into the society in general but on the local level there is a lot of resistance. I believe democracy will be properly established in China within 20 years, and it is going to happen without too much distruction and the involvement of foreign interests.

I am quite proud of My governmen. They have led our 1.33 billion people ( more than the entire developed world together) to a better, more comfortable life, most people benefited from the last 30 years. If you think your government can do the same job, let me know.

Tomas_V wrote: »

You're missing the irony. Irish patriots declared independence at the GPO even though Ireland had not been recognised internationally at that time and had been part of the United Kingdom and governed by Britain for hundreds of years.

And you chose this location to assert Chinese domination of Tibet?

In politics, this kind of mistake is referred to as an 'own goal'.

Fire your media handlers.

To be honest to you I believe most of the 6 million Tibetans live in China now live a better life than the Dalai dictatorial government, and most of them would rather be Chinese. The only way for you to find out about this is to go to Tibet youself and talk to people there. Why don't you make your next holiday in Tibet? Tourism will be reopened from 1st of May

Cliste wrote: »

Lets not get ahead of overselves now:

* 4,000 to 6,000 civilians killed - Edward Timperlake.[15]
* 2,600 had officially died by the morning of June 4 (later denied) - the Chinese Red Cross.[10] An unnamed Chinese Red Cross official estimated that, in total, 5,000 people killed and 30,000 injured.[16]
* 1,000 deaths - Amnesty International[10]
* 7,000 deaths (6,000 civilians and 1,000 soldiers) - NATO intelligence.[15]
* 10,000 deaths in total - Soviet Bloc estimates.[15]
* in excess of 3,700 killed, excluding disappearance or secret deaths and those denied of medical treatment - PLA defector citing a document circulating among officers.[15]
* 186 named individuals confirmed dead as at the end of June 2006 - Professor Ding Zilin.[17]

(from Wiki).

Yes many people died in Tiananmen Square, yes the Chinese government handled the whole situation with a lot of stupidity, yes there is still a lot of human right issues in China.

The soldiers were ordered to fire in the air that day. One guy who witnessed it said some of the firings were a bit low and some people who did not get down got injured.

Do you know why it ended up that way? The government nearly agreed everything they possibly could agree on but some of the CIA backed student leaders want more power for themselves, they also ordered the government to agree with everything they demanded by June 4 and threatened them with revolution. Did your government achieve the Good Friday agreement with this kind of "NEGOCIATION"?

I can say with confidence that most of the students on the Square that day feel they are betrayed by their " leaders". They have moved on and many of them are happy about the current government. Will you ever move on too?

Grudaire

yawtin wrote: »

Do you know why it ended up that way? The government nearly agreed everything they possibly could agree on but some of the CIA backed student leaders want more power for themselves, they also ordered the government to agree with everything they demanded by June 4 and threatened them with revolution. Did your government achieve the Good Friday agreement with this kind of "NEGOCIATION"?

I can say with confidence that most of the students on the Square that day feel they are betrayed by their " leaders". They have moved on and many of them are happy about the current government. Will you ever move on too?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-China, I'm just not convinced by any of your arguments, If you back up all of that I'd be glad to preach the word that Tienanmen Square happened like that,

Now as for the North its a different situation, however if we go back to the start....

There once was a Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association(NICRA), who wanted equal rights for Catholics- ie an end to gerrymandering etc etc, Now they organised a march in Derry(the Derry March), which was forcibly put down by the government forces- the RUC, and we have the troubles, So in that sense the troubles were started by a similar thing to Tienanmen Square(to compare like with like)

Me move on from what!? (China is far enough away for me to just typr: ctrl-t miniclip.com and just mess about)

MasterSun

Cliste wrote: »

Lets not get ahead of overselves now:

* 4,000 to 6,000 civilians killed - Edward Timperlake.[15]
* 2,600 had officially died by the morning of June 4 (later denied) - the Chinese Red Cross.[10] An unnamed Chinese Red Cross official estimated that, in total, 5,000 people killed and 30,000 injured.[16]
* 1,000 deaths - Amnesty International[10]
* 7,000 deaths (6,000 civilians and 1,000 soldiers) - NATO intelligence.[15]
* 10,000 deaths in total - Soviet Bloc estimates.[15]
* in excess of 3,700 killed, excluding disappearance or secret deaths and those denied of medical treatment - PLA defector citing a document circulating among officers.[15]
* 186 named individuals confirmed dead as at the end of June 2006 - Professor Ding Zilin.[17]

(from Wiki)

Oh vs:

0 deaths - two student leaders on State Tv

u r wrong,
that video clip was not filmed by the Chinese state news-agency.

The 2 stu leaders only refereed that they did not see any killing in the square.


u have been fooled by ur western media!!

The Chinese government has never said that no-one was killed during the 98 incident, what the gov said was there was no deaths in the square. the clashes between soldiers and citizens were outside the square.
the gov estimated that the death toll is less than 700 people.

the western media played around the words, instead of saying there was no-one killed in the square, ur reporters reported that the Chinese gov said 0 deaths in China.

also form wiki, see below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

extracted from wiki

The Chinese government has maintained that there were no deaths within the square itself, although videos taken there at the time recorded the sound of gunshots. Central Committee of the Communist Party of China and State Council claimed that "hundreds of PLA soldiers died and more were injured."[citation needed] Yuan Mu, the spokesman of the State Council, said that a total of about 300 people died, most of them soldiers, along with a number of people he described as "ruffians."[9] According to Chen Xitong, Beijing mayor, 200 civilians and several dozen soldiers died.[10] Other sources stated that 3,000 civilians and 6,000 soldiers injured.[11] In May 2007, CPPCC member from Hong Kong, Chang Ka-mun said 300 to 600 people were killed in Tiananmen Square. He echoed that "there were armed thugs who weren't students."[12]

Grudaire

MasterSun wrote: »

u r wrong,
that video clip was not filmed by the Chinese state agency.

They only refereed that they did not see any killing in the square.


u have been fooled!!

Interesting way of putting my wrongness, Yes however you are right,

Any idea what/who/where the video was for?

MasterSun

Cliste wrote: »

Interesting way of putting my wrongness, Yes however you are right,

Any idea what/who/where the video was for?

the video clip was a part of a documentary on the Tian An Men Incident. (can't remember the name of it, but it is quite famous. filmed in the early 90s)
believe it or not, u can buy it in black market in China.

the video crews traveled around the world, interviewed those who had taken part in the protest.

EamonnKeane

I don't think it's acceptable for an immigrant community to march not for their own rights but to complain about their home country's treatment in Irish media. It wasn't a productive exercise; the Irishman in the street would see it as indicating that the Chinese in Ireland have a greater allegiance to their home country than to this state.

A very old lady took her prayer's necklace out and she was obviously angery. She said we were invaders of Tibet and shame on us. Am I wrong to think she thought we were devils and the necklace can frighten us away?

I very much hope this is a joke.

Also, who organised the march?

MasterSun

EamonnKeane wrote: »

I don't think it's acceptable for an immigrant community to march not for their own rights but to complain about their home country's treatment in Irish media. It wasn't a productive exercise; the Irishman in the street would see it as indicating that the Chinese in Ireland have a greater allegiance to their home country than to this state.

I think there is nothing wrong to defend the good name of your home country.
Plus
it isn't solely an Anti-Media Bias march.
to promote the Olympic s's spirit,to promote peace and unity among people are also on the agenda.

EamonnKeane wrote: »

Also, who organised the march?

the idea was came up by a Chinese Student, he posted a thread on a Chinese website, then an organising committee was set up 2 weeks ago.
the Irish Chinese newspaper printed a poster for them and a few Chinese shops donated some money. soon every1 was talking about it, but no one knew exactly how many people would come to the march.

there are about 11000 Chinese people living in Ireland (2006 census)
from my observation, that roughly about 1200 people turned out. many Irish and other nationals joined us in the march as well.

Chris_Heilong

Well you see a lot of these people are not immigrants, They don’t plan to stay, just to earn as much money as possible and return to China to live a better life.

I’m very happy to see many Irish(I being one of em) on these boards have a very open mind about the whole China issue, I have seen so many boards on the net where (western) people seem to be bragging the same lines and free Tibet without question(also seem very anti-China from before the whole Tibet thing, maybe us Irish just dont have the same haterd for communism that the Americans seem to be brought up with), they wont hear any other side. I was having a conversation with someone about this and just tried to give a diffrent slant on the story so as to level out things and was verbally assaulted with insults, I wanted to go to see the Demo today but out of fear of being attack by my fellow countrymen:eek: for my support for China I choose to remain at home, Happy to hear no one got hurt and this better get shown on the news and not spindoctored as a lot of reports I have seen lately are.

Tomas_V

OK-Cancel-Apply wrote: »

It appeared as though you were trying to intimidate them out of going there again, as the site is too 'sacred' to the Irish.

Your statement is typical of the kind of distortion the Chinese are applying to any criticism of their actions. I did not use any aggressive language, and I did not say the site was 'sacred'.

The Chinese are complaining that nobody listens to their message. I think the reason for this is that they are naive in matters of media and image. First, the choice of venue and second by not taking the trouble to contact the TV and radio stations and inviting them to come to their demonstration.

If their complaint is that the media ignores them, why not protest outside RTE?

yawtin wrote:

To be honest to you I believe most of the 6 million Tibetans live in China now live a better life than the Dalai dictatorial government, and most of them would rather be Chinese. The only way for you to find out about this is to go to Tibet youself and talk to people there.

OK, assuming I could speak Tibetan, could I go there and speak privately with individual Tibetans about their opinion of Tibetan independence? Western media states that any discussion of this subject is forbidden. Also, if I put this on my visa application as being the purpose of my visit, would there be any problem in being allowed into China?

MasterSun

Tomas_V wrote: »

OK, assuming I could speak Tibetan, could I go there and speak privately with individual Tibetans about their opinion of Tibetan independence? Western media states that any discussion of this subject is forbidden.

yes, if u go there as a tourist u could ask questions individually to the local people .
u don't think u need to know the Tibetan language. most Tibetans can speak Chinese and a few can speak English.

Tomas_V wrote: »

Also, if I put this on my visa application as being the purpose of my visit, would there be any problem in being allowed into China?

do not know about this
but i think
u may not be granted a Visitor's Visa, cause they may think u as a journalist and ask u to fill another visa application for reporters. (this is only my opinion)

mikemac

Chris_Heilong wrote: »

Well you see a lot of these people are not immigrants, They don’t plan to stay, just to earn as much money as possible and return to China to live a better life.

And many on student visa's but working full-time which they are not supposed to do.
And many attending English language schools that exist only on paper.

It's been posted here by MasterSun that the 2006 Census shows 11,000 thousand Chinese people here. Could be far higher, nobody knows.

It's a relevant point, getting 1200 people to a rally is impressive. But I realy doubt the Chinese population in Ireland is so low as around 11,000 even if that figure is two years old

Grudaire

Sunday Times today- who say's western media hates ya!? (front page):D

joetal

MasterSun wrote: »

u r wrong,
that video clip was not filmed by the Chinese state news-agency.

The 2 stu leaders only refereed that they did not see any killing in the square.


u have been fooled by ur western media!!

The Chinese government has never said that no-one was killed during the 98 incident, what the gov said was there was no deaths in the square. the clashes between soldiers and citizens were outside the square.
the gov estimated that the death toll is less than 700 people.

the western media played around the words, instead of saying there was no-one killed in the square, ur reporters reported that the Chinese gov said 0 deaths in China.

also form wiki, see below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

To say no one died inside the square as opposed to outside the square, how exactly does that make a difference? Several foreign journalists report that students and citizens alike were shot inside the square.

From Frontline interview with Jan Wong,

How many people do you think died, and can we be confident of a figure?
… I've written that 3,000 people died, … and I base that on a very early report by the Chinese Red Cross that was quickly suppressed. And then I talked to military attachés, and they did estimates based on crowd size, amount of shooting and kind of weaponry. And I don't mean just one. I mean about half a dozen of them got together and tried to figure it out. And then I got to know the figure because I contributed information, I took down time of gun fire, length of gunfire, that's what I was doing that night. I couldn't do anything else. I just sat there with my watch it was like watching the Olympics. You know, "Let me see, that was three minutes and forty seconds, gunfire in the Southwest, OK." So I supplied that and they gave me what they had, so I think about 3,000. … It's a guesstimate. I don't really know. I don't think anybody really knows.
The government said nobody was shot at Tiananmen Square, nobody died at Tiananmen Square. So then later they said 1,000, but they were mostly soldiers. Well, if they were saying that many soldiers died, then I don't think it's at all beyond the realms of imagination to say that 3,000 civilians died.



Funny how most people still living in China involved in the protest say that it was wrong. Gee maybe because they don't want to get into more trouble than they already have? One of the student leaders denying anyone died in the square on state TV? Unequivocal evidence that no one was shot in the square! But let's ignore all those "foreign" press journalist that say otherwise. They are from the "West" so they are not to be trusted.

ilikerei

Tomas_V wrote: »

The Chinese are complaining that nobody listens to their message. I think the reason for this is that they are naive in matters of media and image. First, the choice of venue and second by not taking the trouble to contact the TV and radio stations and inviting them to come to their demonstration.

If their complaint is that the media ignores them, why not protest outside RTE?

In fact, the organizers did invit RTE and some other TV and radios stations.
But RTE said they have no interest in support Olympic demonstration.
I have to believe that they only care "some things" about China with this answer.

MasterSun

micmclo wrote: »

It's a relevant point, getting 1200 people to a rally is impressive. But I realy doubt the Chinese population in Ireland is so low as around 11,000 even if that figure is two years old

i think the numbers of non -EU nationals in Ireland is decreasing in the recent yrs.
3 factors
1. the Irish gov had put on tougher rules to stop people coming from Non-EU countries.
2. The fading of the economy, high unemployment
3. booming eco in the east meant fewer eco migrants to Ireland.

ilikerei

micmclo wrote: »

And many on student visa's but working full-time which they are not supposed to do.
And many attending English language schools that exist only on paper.

It's been posted here by MasterSun that the 2006 Census shows 11,000 thousand Chinese people here. Could be far higher, nobody knows.

It's a relevant point, getting 1200 people to a rally is impressive. But I realy doubt the Chinese population in Ireland is so low as around 11,000 even if that figure is two years old

Not only Chinese, isn't it? There are also a lot of people who come from other Countries did the samething as Chinese.

Do you know in last 2 years, the goverment changed the law a lot and as a result, many Chinese left Ireland forever. So that number is not to far away from the real one.

Tomas_V

MasterSun wrote: »

most Tibetans can speak Chinese and a few can speak English.

Would these Tibetans be of Han or Tibetan ethnicity?

MasterSun

joetal wrote: »

To say no one died inside the square as opposed to outside the square, how exactly does that make a difference?

the point i was making was that u guys were brainwashed by western media.
i bet u didn't know the Chinese gov admitted that less than 700 people were killed.

joetal wrote: »

Funny how most people still living in China involved in the protest say that it was wrong. Gee maybe because they don't want to get into more trouble than they already have? One of the student leaders denying anyone died in the square on state TV? Unequivocal evidence that no one was shot in the square! But let's ignore all those "foreign" press journalist that say otherwise. They are from the "West" so they are not to be trusted.

on state tv???
plz check my previous posts on this thread, read it carefully.
plus
if the video was made by Chinese Gov, it would have CCTV written on top of the left conner. like this one
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MiVunJBIGoM

CCTV stands for China Central Television.

MasterSun

Tomas_V wrote: »

Would these Tibetans be of Han or Tibetan ethnicity?

Han, Hui and Tibetan Chinese

nobodythere

China did not "develop" Tibet, it invaded it.

Imprisoned in the giant machine we are conditioned to its terms, and all of these injustices against tibetans are a consequence of industrialisation, such is the ugly reality.

It is true that China is being unfairly targeted, and if the olympics were held in the US nobody would bat an eyelid or protest against Guantanamo Bay etc. But considering there is now the momentum to make a positive impact, we HAVE TO keep the pressure on.

Industrial China doesn't give a **** what you think like any other country. Their minds are on their wealth and when you have them by the balls with the olympics you have to use your position to bring as much positive change as possible.

MasterSun

Cliste wrote: »

Sunday Times today- who say's western media hates ya!? (front page):D

i brought the paper, it's a bit disappointing, the editor only published 15 words and a single photo about the march. ( I was expecting more)
the rest was about the walk out on the green party.

what did the Irish times say？ any1 know?

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

It is true that China is being unfairly targeted, and if the olympics were held in the US nobody would bat an eyelid or protest against Guantanamo Bay etc. But considering there is now the momentum to make a positive impact, we HAVE TO keep the pressure on.

that is nonsense, if the olympics were being held in the states the protests would be several times larger than they currently are.

MasterSun

grasshopa wrote: »

China did not "develop" Tibet, it invaded it.

Tibet -- Its Ownership And Human Rights Situation
http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A34385367

grasshopa wrote: »

Industrial China doesn't give a **** what you think like any other country. Their minds are on their wealth.

not quite true,
China does not totally concentrated on their wealth.
check this out
China gives Africa debt relief
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/966643.stm

MasterSun

Mordeth wrote: »

that is nonsense, if the olympics were being held in the states the protests would be several times larger than they currently are.

don't know about other country's reactions to an US Olympic game,
but in N. Korea,
i am certain that every Korean would protest.

also, the evil terrorists would certainly do more killings in US.

nobodythere

Fair enough on that Mordeth.

With regards to the debt relief: Fair enough, a government is made up of thousands of people and doesn't act consistently. What I'm trying to say is that overall a country acts in its best economic interests

MasterSun

grasshopa wrote: »

What I'm trying to say is that overall a country acts in its best economic interests

i believe politics is prior to eco

Grudaire

MasterSun wrote: »

i brought the paper, it's a bit disappointing, the editor only published 15 words and a single photo about the march. ( I was expecting more)
the rest was about the walk out on the green party.

To get something front page is impressive, don't expect an entire 4 million to change their mind over the protest....

lonesome

Cliste wrote: »

To get something front page is impressive, don't expect an entire 4 million to change their mind over the protest....

we live in Ireland and we love it.
Frankly, we never expect to change people's mind but we need to be treated equally fair by the media.