Chinese people's protest

crianp · 14-04-2008 11:23pm

Pro C, I think you are one disillusioned chinese citizen, you can't even begin to compare guantanmo to the human rights violations by China, what about the thousands of falun gong members killed? they were innocent as where the tibetans.

The only reason Tibet is not free is because China moved so many Han people there that the Tibetans are the minority in their own country. The only reason the U.S does not support Tibet and Taiwan for that matter is because the Chinese are helping fund the war in Iraq by buying lots of our treasury bonds.

A buddy of mine did a stint in Guantanmo, he said the claims of the media are so far from the truth and even if they are true, it just goes back to the point of considering China's history, their human rights abuses and lack of civil liberties should have meant that they should have never got the games but I think a little cash might have been exchanged.

jam_mac_jam · 14-04-2008 11:24pm

jenny82288228 wrote: »

It seems you really don't know anything of your country. Are you really Irish? I doubt it!

"Irish law"??? You have "IRISH" law, you copy everything from Great Britain, you have no laws of your own!!! Go to some web page and check it! You are a big laugh!!!!:D:D:D:D

Of course we are Irish law, look it up yourself, you sound like a young child calling people names and not having a clue what you are taking about.

Pro C · 14-04-2008 11:41pm

crianp wrote: »

Pro C, I think you are one disillusioned chinese citizen, you can't even begin to compare guantanmo to the human rights violations by China, what about the thousands of falun gong members killed? they were innocent as where the tibetans.

Then, Crianp, I think you are one disillusioned Irish citizen. Find out exactly what Falun Gong is, then talk to me....... Actually, I really hope you practice Falun Gong, sincerely.

crianp wrote: »

The only reason Tibet is not free is because China moved so many Han people there that the Tibetans are the minority in their own country. The only reason the U.S does not support Tibet and Taiwan for that matter is because the Chinese are helping fund the war in Iraq by buying lots of our treasury bonds.

Well, most of those bonds are administrated in Ireland through various funds which employ hundrads of thousands Irish people, I guess we are on the same boat, you have blood in your hands as well, at the end of the day, we are not that different, say great to the globalisation, haa?

crianp wrote: »

A buddy of mine did a stint in Guantanmo, he said the claims of the media are so far from the truth and even if they are true, it just goes back to the point of considering China's history, their human rights abuses and lack of civil liberties should have meant that they should have never got the games but I think a little cash might have been exchanged.

Ah, well, fair play to your mate, my mates in China, actually, 4 millions of whom in my city alone don't feel any human rights issue, the government may be corrupted, so is Bertie, what can you say? You are not that greater after all.

jenny82288228 · 14-04-2008 11:42pm

Cliste wrote: »

Not to sound racist or anything, but there are plenty of Chinese here for work...
quote]

Yes, there're a lot of Chinese people working here, if Chinese people didn't work, who would pay the tax to support to build up Ireland?

You have meat to eat now, you think "you are able to mind other countries' business"?! Whatever you think or say can change nothing of the fact that Tibet is a part of China.:)

Have you ever been in China? Have you ever had your own experiences of talking to the people in Tibet? If you don't have either of them, better keep your mouth shut!!!:)

jenny82288228 · 14-04-2008 11:47pm

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Of course we are Irish law, look it up yourself, you sound like a young child calling people names and not having a clue what you are taking about.

See, as I said you're less educated, you not only have forgotten how to speak Irish, but also English. What does it mean by "We are Irish law"! You really are?:D

GuanYin · 14-04-2008 11:54pm

Jenny82288228, you're next post that isn't discussing the topic will merit a ban from this forum.

Insulting people because you disagree with their point of view is not the point of this forum.

Pro C · 14-04-2008 11:59pm

Cliste wrote: »

The problem is of course that the people under Chinese rule aren't happy with that rule.......

This isn't about America, this is about China, set up another thread to discuss America, I will gladly America-bash with you.

No, I reject the notion of having another raw about america, I and many Chinese assoicated america with europe as you share so much thinking in common, so much so that does Ireland has lost so much individuality as a nation.

Pro C · 15-04-2008 12:52am

Cliste wrote: »

are you trying to insult us?

Yes we do rely on foreign trade as a means to keep are economy at such high levels, but sure your country does well off Ireland (they get more money from Ireland in trade then they spend on Tibet(according to one of the links I was sent to it was US$40million))

Not to sound racist or anything, but there are plenty of Chinese here for work...

As for not supporting other countries, do you mean we don't own and control a region the size of tibet (for example) well no, we don't. But we have more peacekeeping troops then the US for example.

This isn't a competition. Show me concrete proof that the Tibetans don't want freedom, and I will gladly cross the barricades...

Think it in reality. Without Ireland, China can live with it, without China as a trade partner, Ireland will be very worst off.

As pointed out in another thread, your logic of thinking is Tibetan ask your point of view on our affairs, so show me concrete proof that Tibetans want freedom, and I will gladly cross the barricades...

Pride Fighter · 15-04-2008 1:32am

The Chinese government does a great job brainwashing its own people doesn't it. Tibet is a country, it was illegally annexed by China in 1951. Everyone except Chinese people realise this. People should realise that the Chinese government has killed more of its own people than the Nazi's and Soviet Union combined. The Tibetan government in exile is the legitimate government of Tibet, much like Charles De Gaulle was the head of the French government in exile during WW2.

Peace

GuanYin · 15-04-2008 1:55am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The Chinese government does a great job brainwashing its own people doesn't it.

We'll see. If you can back up any of your claims with evidence.

Tibet is a country

Actually no. Tibet has never been offically recognised by any major state or the United Nations, as a country. There are no records of this. Can you show otherwise.

it was illegally annexed by China in 1951.

Again, no, PRC forced Lama government at the time out. If you were to say anything of the PRC actions, it could maybe considered some sort of coup.

Please define the term annexed and show some sort of historical evidence that Chinese troops held hostile actions against the people of Tibet.

Everyone except Chinese people realise this.

If the definition of "eveyone except Chinese people" is you and soley you, then you might just be right.

People should realise that the Chinese government has killed more of its own people than the Nazi's and Soviet Union combined.

Ok, I'm going to break our own rules and say you're a troll. A banned troll if you don't argue these points.

The japanese/axis massacre in Nanjing probably killed more chinese than any other nations casualties combined, barring maybe the jews themselves.

Show some evidence.

The Tibetan government in exile is the legitimate government of Tibet, much like Charles De Gaulle was the head of the French government in exile during WW2.

Why?

Pro C · 15-04-2008 1:55am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The Chinese government does a great job brainwashing its own people doesn't it. Tibet is a country, it was illegally annexed by China in 1951. Everyone except Chinese people realise this. People should realise that the Chinese government has killed more of its own people than the Nazi's and Soviet Union combined. The Tibetan government in exile is the legitimate government of Tibet, much like Charles De Gaulle was the head of the French government in exile during WW2.

Peace

Why do you only focus your eyes upon a single point in time may present a little controvercy? By looking at before or after that particular point, Tibet was and is always part of China. You can't change it, realistically, do you think will Tibet ever be independent? It is such a strategic location, so stop wasting your time and energy?

We learnt our history due our 14 years of education, you may saw a few video cilp on the BBC, which agency does a better job brainwashing people?

Grudaire · 15-04-2008 9:01am

Pro C wrote: »

Think it in reality. Without Ireland, China can live with it, without China as a trade partner, Ireland will be very worst off.

As pointed out in another thread, your logic of thinking is Tibetan ask your point of view on our affairs, so show me concrete proof that Tibetans want freedom, and I will gladly cross the barricades...

We quite obviously can't show you concrete proof...................:rolleyes:

cahalfinbarr · 15-04-2008 9:48am

Cliste wrote: »

We quite obviously can't show you concrete proof...................:rolleyes:

I have listened all month to anti chinese programs on RTE and Newstalk. Many of the "experts" were ignorant of Chinese History and Chinese Society. Some nights ago a small anti chinese rally got extended coverage on the national media. When thousands of highly educated Chinese gather to say that the facts are different the media all but ignores them.
There were 56 different peoples at the rally, many of them anti-Chinese government. They say that they have religious freedom. They say they have civil rights. They are brainwashed. They do not know what they are talking about.
We know better. Our American masters have told us the truth. We have never been there. We can pontificate and we shall. Dont ask us for proof

RedPlanet · 15-04-2008 9:54am

crianp wrote: »

The only reason Tibet is not free is because China moved so many Han people there that the Tibetans are the minority in their own country.

That is misrepresenting what is actually occuring.
China has invested heavily in the infastructure of TAR which in turn as spurned the local economy which has attracted numbers of people relocating their to find employment and make a try of things.
Which is exactly what an American foreign journalist observed.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/199902/tibet-china

ne common misperception in Western reports is that these people are sent by the government: the image is of a tremendous Han civilian army arriving to overwhelm Tibetan culture. The truth is that the government has little control over the situation. "How do you cut off the people moving out there?" asked one American who had spent much time in Tibet. "What mechanism are you going to have to prevent that? They don't have any restrictions on internal travel—and we always beat them over the head about not having those, because to institute them would be a human-rights issue."

RATM · 15-04-2008 10:06am

jenny82288228 wrote: »

Have you got a brain?!:D Do you normally use your ass to think!:D:D:D
People back in China don't need to protest, because they are very happy with their lives, they love their country,so do the Chinese people in here.:)They're very happy to see their home country getting better and better.You just are afraid of China and are jelous of China.:)
Let me tell you something, you poor non-educational pig, you are like a frog sitting just in your hole, can't see anything outside your world.

Jenny by throwing around insults as crass as that you are already half way to losing the debate.

People back in China do need to protest, they need to protest for their very right to protest, for freedom of assembly, freedom of speech. They are not all happy with the government ( ask the few million that the Party displaced to build the Three Gorges Dam and see if they are happy ). Ive been to China many times ( in fact Ive been around China more than the majority of Chinese people, freedom of movement is another right many dont have ).
and it is an awful regime that operates there. I met plenty of Chinese people who are not happy with their lives and would like to see democratic change. Your govt. has no concern whatsoever for minorites, they have no care for human rights and they have no care for democracy ( in fact the very word "Democracy" used in forums like this in China is banned- thanks for that Google ).

You have a corrupt regime in operation in China and the most patriotic thing a Chinese national abroad can do is to protest at your embassy. But you dont, instead you choose to protest about the Olympics, a sporting contest that lost all credibility a long time ago when it turned into a contest of who could take the most drugs.

Let me make a few observations as to why Chinese students here dont protest their own govt.
Chinese students here are, by Chinese standards, in the socio-demographic of the upper middle class- unlike the vast majority of Chinese they enjoy the privilege of a passport,they are members of the small minority of Chinese people who can afford a foreign trip, most Chinese work their butts off for less than a few yuan a day. The Chinese here flout cameras and mobile phones, worth many multiples of the average Chinese workers weekly wage. Their parents give them 150,000 yuan and send them to Europe to find a better life.
You could say that their parents are the elite of China and how do you become a member of the elite? Anyone familiar with the term nomenklatura will understand. You simply must be an active member of the Party, otherwise you have no chance in Chinese society to ever gain the riches that will enable you to send your children abroad. ( I know this because I travelled through China with the son of one of the Communist Party's head chefs- he explained it all in great detail ). Quite simply the Chinese students here are protesting a position that helps cement their parents position within the Chinese elite.
In China ( and much of Asia ) your parents politics are your politics. Disrespect for parents is a big no no in Asia and holding alternate political views to your parents is considered disrespect.

The students here are merely acting like mouthpieces for the Party, holding the line no matter what the cost. Indeed the cost to their parents and family at home could be grave if they decide to stand up and have the balls to actually go and break it.

its quite simple, the students here dont protest for human rights for their fellow countrymen because they and their parents enjoy a privileged position within Chinese society and they certainly ain't going to put their ass on the line to change that.

leninbenjamin · 15-04-2008 10:19am

that's a very interesting article RedPlanet. i have to say i was quite disconcerted though when i read this:

"First, I will use my friendship to help [the Tibetans]. But if they refuse my friendship, I will use war to develop them, like the Americans did with the Indians."

RATM · 15-04-2008 10:25am

Pro C wrote: »

Think it in reality. Without Ireland, China can live with it, without China as a trade partner, Ireland will be very worst off.

As pointed out in another thread, your logic of thinking is Tibetan ask your point of view on our affairs, so show me concrete proof that Tibetans want freedom, and I will gladly cross the barricades...

Pro C, if you want concrete proof that Tibetans want freedom then go to McLeod Ganj, Dharmsala or pretty much any place in Kashmir and Ladakk in northern India and talk to any one of the 300,000 Tibetans in exile there and ask them do they want freedom. Or you could stand on any of the high mountain passes between Tibet and Nepal at 4 in the morning and watch Tibetans on a 30 day march for their freedom into Nepal. Thats if the Chinese army let you into the area, they normally like to keep people away when they are raining sniper fire down on innocent unarmed women and children.

And no, Tibet has not always been part of China, from Wikipedia:

"A series of kings ruled Tibet from the 7th to the 11th century"

To claim otherwise it to airbrush history, though the Chinese government has proved more than adept at doing that in the past, remember the Cultural Revolution?

dyu2 · 15-04-2008 10:34am

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The Chinese government does a great job brainwashing its own people doesn't it. Tibet is a country, it was illegally annexed by China in 1951. Everyone except Chinese people realise this. People should realise that the Chinese government has killed more of its own people than the Nazi's and Soviet Union combined. The Tibetan government in exile is the legitimate government of Tibet, much like Charles De Gaulle was the head of the French government in exile during WW2.

Peace

Don't bark up the wrong tree!
Chinese and Irish are all outstanding nations. It is totally ultranationalism to libel other nations people is 'Brainwashing'. I have lived in Ireland for 9 years, I graduated Bsc, Msc and PhD in your country, I work with Irish people and I heared BBC, SKY news everyday, but I am still angry with what BBC said about Tibet and Olympics. Am I 'brainwashing'?
Tell you another story, BBC reported and criticized the pollution in China last night. I understand and accept what they said because their report is TRUTH this time.
About Tibet is country or not, lots of west people are so self-opinioned because they don't know the history of China. (Just like I don't know the history of UK. For example, I don't know if Scotland, Welsh and England were one country or not ? or are one country or not?)

If you want to speak about Tibet, read the history of CHINA first.
This is the link about Tibet history of English: http://www.china-hiking.com/tibet/Before1951.htm
(which is not writen by 'brainwashing's)

CerebralCortex · 15-04-2008 10:53am

dyu2 wrote: »

Don't bark up the wrong tree!
Chinese and Irish are all outstanding nations. It is totally ultranationalism to libel other nations people is 'Brainwashing'. I have lived in Ireland for 9 years, I graduated Bsc, Msc and PhD in your country, I work with Irish people and I heared BBC, SKY news everyday, but I am still angry with what BBC said about Tibet and Olympics. Am I 'brainwashing'?
Tell you another story, BBC reported and criticized the pollution in China last night. I understand and accept what they said because their report is TRUTH this time.
About Tibet is country or not, lots of west people are so self-opinioned because they don't know the history of China. (Just like I don't know the history of UK. For example, I don't know if Scotland, Welsh and England were one country or not ? or are one country or not?)

If you want to speak about Tibet, read the history of CHINA first.
This is the link about Tibet history of English: http://www.china-hiking.com/tibet/Before1951.htm
(which is not writen by 'brainwashing's)

You can understand though that it would be hard for some of us to except that the above was an impartial history. Victors write the history books. I'm just about happy to be Irish the reason I'm not proud to be Irish is because we don't judge our actions objectively. I see something similar in how Chinese posters post on these forums. I'll give the link a look regardless.

RedPlanet · 15-04-2008 11:08am

Tibet is NOT a country, period.
It is not a country because it is:
- not a member of the UN
- not among "United Nations General Assembly observers"
- not among "International organizations", or "non-governmental organizations" whom have access to the UN General Assembly.
- not listed in the "Montevideo Convention"

Ireland for example cannot enter a treaty with Tibet, nor with the Dalai Lama group, as they are not part of the UN.

donaghs · 15-04-2008 11:26am

Well done with the protest. Good to see different points of view.

Now try organising a protest in China (non-government approved). Spot the difference.

CerebralCortex · 15-04-2008 11:28am

RedPlanet wrote: »

Tibet is NOT a country, period.
It is not a country because it is:
- not a member of the UN
- not among "United Nations General Assembly observers"
- not among "International organizations", or "non-governmental organizations" whom have access to the UN General Assembly.
- not listed in the "Montevideo Convention"

Ireland for example cannot enter a treaty with Tibet, nor with the Dalai Lama group, as they are not part of the UN.

I'm genuinely interested to know how do the people of Tibet feel about this? It certainly will never be a country while China remains communist due to the fact that people can't voice their own opinions without fear.

RedPlanet · 15-04-2008 11:42am

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I'm genuinely interested to know how do the people of Tibet feel about this? It certainly will never be a country while China remains communist due to the fact that people can't voice their own opinions without fear.

Countries are not about feelings, they are about International Treaties.
From wikiepdia:

a sovereign state should possess the following qualifications: (a) a permanent population, (b) a defined territory, (c) government, and (d) capacity to enter into relations with the other states. In respect of the last qualification, the role of recognition by other states can often be crucial since it implies acceptance into the international community.

How do the indigenous people in the rainforest of Brazil feel about their lot in life? Seeing their habitat destroyed?
Do those people make countries too?
You might personally believe that Tibet should be a country, but that doesn't make it so.
Personally i don't believe that the Tibetan people can be a soverign state because nobody would let them have at it, either the Russians or India or USA would make it their own playground.
The Tibetan people are better protected by China.

donaghs · 15-04-2008 11:46am

PSI wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to break our own rules and say you're a troll. A banned troll if you don't argue these points.

The japanese/axis massacre in Nanjing probably killed more chinese than any other nations casualties combined, barring maybe the jews themselves.

Show some evidence.

While the Japanese acted horribly in China in the 30s and 40s, most scholars would now say Mao killed a lot more Chinese in total. The fact that he managed to create conditions for Famine in the 1950s speaks volumes.

It's difficult to provide evidence as regimes like this don't tend to collect such negative data. The official statistics showed harvests and production rising every year, regardless of the real situation. How can you expect evidence when Mao denied there was a Famine, and blamed the shortages on food hoarders and sparrows.

[And just for black humour;), Mao also unleashed a sparrow killing campaign which also proved a failure they had been useful for pest control.]

bonkey · 15-04-2008 11:51am

RedPlanet wrote: »

Tibet is NOT a country, period.

I coulda sworn that the whole issue was over whether or not it should be, not whether or not it was.

RedPlanet · 15-04-2008 11:53am

bonkey wrote: »

I coulda sworn that the whole issue was over whether or not it should be, not whether or not it was.

Then go on and take a position bonkey.

bonkey · 15-04-2008 1:43pm

RedPlanet wrote: »

Then go on and take a position bonkey.

Why? Is my point somehow not valid because you don't know where I stand?

Will it become valid if I say I agree with one side, and invalid if I say I agree with the other?

Pointing out that Tibet is not a country is a bit like pointing out that Tibet is not independant. Its pretty-much the basis on which the whole topic stands. It is not a point which speaks for or against the question of indepedence, but rather one which establishes that the question of independance must be phrased in terms of obtaining it rather than keeping it.

That point should be valid regardless of what my position is, and whether or not you get to find out what that position is.

RedPlanet · 15-04-2008 1:54pm

bonkey wrote: »

Why? Is my point somehow not valid because you don't know where I stand?

Will it become valid if I say I agree with one side, and invalid if I say I agree with the other?

In other words you're just here to snipe at posts, without taking a position.

oscarBravo · 15-04-2008 2:11pm

He's not publicly expressing a position here; doesn't mean he's not taking one.

Back on topic.

Reporter · 15-04-2008 2:18pm

Recently on a number of Irish online forums and perhaps in pubs through out the country Chinese people have been vocally defending the Chinese Communist party, a regime that has killed more of its own people than the two world wars put together.

I would like to address some of the issues raised and look forward to hearing responses from Chinese people and others on this form.

1. Was John Gormley correct to critise China publicly

Yes. John gormley has been campaigning for human rights in China for years. Part of his parties manifesto for government is that he will raise these issues.

Why was he correct to do it publicly instead of behind closed doors? China asked the EU to set up the China-EU human rights dialogue in the 90's after the tianamen student massacre and it has since been used by the Chinese communist regime and EU countries as an excuse not to talk about human rights in public.

These meetings are hopeless and achieve nothing.

The main reason that dialogue with the communist regime in China achieves nothing is because if the goal was achieved to make the chinese government more accountable and more transparant the first people to be held accountable for their crimes are the communist officals:

for example, Jian Zemin started the persecution of Falun Gong, Lou Gan is the head of the security forces and is responsible for numberous crackdowns over a number of years, and the current president Hu Jin Tao was responsible for the last crack down in Tibet in 1988.

These people will never agree to a more transparant, accountable and democratic system as if they do they will be the first to be judge by a jury of their peers. Hence all dialogue with the Chinese Communist party is pointless

2. Why the Olympics are political, and why the Irish media where correct not to report on the Chinese rally at the weekend.

A rally was held at the weekend and by all reports a 1000 Chinese people attended but no Irish media outlets paid much attention to it, why? because it is propaganda for the Chinese Communist Party.

Why is it propaganda and why are the Olympics political? They are political because they are being used by the Chinese Communist party to show the world how great the Chinese Communist party is. They are political because in each country they the Olympic Torch visits government ministers are participating. The whole point of the excercise for the Chinese communist party is to bolster its image and show how great it is, and to show the Chinese people that the world accepts the Communist party. Obviously this strategy is not working as the world is telling the communist regime they do not support it and their actions are not acceptable.

Why were Irish media correct not to report the rally

the current Chinese people in Ireland are the children of the people that are doing well in China. They are the 30%. the 70% that do not come to Ireland, the vast majority are living in third world conditions. They dont come to Ireland because they can not afford it, they can barely afford to survive.

the young Chinese people from the cities in China have never had it so good. they have no idea what happened in 1989, the cultural revolution, the great leap forward. They are mostly not member of Falun Gong, or christians or Urghurs. They probably didnt have their houses torn down to make buildings for the Olympics, or their houses were not torn down to build the three gorges dam. They have probably never been on the wrong side of the Chinese Communist party.

In Mao's little red book he talks about targeting the 5% in order to keep the 95% in order. These young chinese in Ireland have never been the 5%. They come from wealthy families where all is well in China, and they are never told by their own media that their fellow Chinese people are not as lucky.

Therefore reporting on Saturdays rally would have boosted the Chinese regimes image and the suffering of the 70% of Chinese people that are not that well off and it would have given the Irish people the impression of how great China is.

Of course ordinary Chinese people are happy about getting the Olympics and do think it is something to be proud of and they are not wrong for thinking this way. But in the western world where there is free speech we are aware of much of what is going on in China more so than the people in that country because your government is trying to keep it hidden from you.

regarding the rally, it is worth noting that similar rallys were held around the world within two or three weeks. If the Chinese embassy was not involved in the coordination of the events I would be interested to know how they were so welll organised. Where all the flags came from. I have never seen one in anyones house that I have been too. And if the Embassy was not involved how did the organisers have the contact info of the chinese community in Ireland.

Bottom line

China will not change while the Chinese communist party is in power. As the saying goes: the only way to the top of the Chinese Communist party is standing on top of corpses. Therefore these people will never change the system. The only solution is follow europes example and get rid of this failed system. The best way I have seen to date is to simply quit the Chinese communist party:
http://tuidang.epochtimes.com/
http://en.epochtimes.com/211,95,,1.html

Comments appreciated.