Chinese Delegates walk out of Greens Conference following Gormley's remarks on Tibet

Breezer

Pro C wrote: »

We are not accussing John for what he said about the open dialogue, probably at this stage we can't care less, the world fued our anger is he refer Tibet as a country, believe or not, it is insulting.

To your second point, although government request to show how the CCP deals with the human rights issue, does it really mean or have a effect on anything, maybe just by saying "yeah, we have put our point across - as a ass covering act, isn't it?" you businesses are still investing and capturing profit before the crisis is resloved, that's the greedy part of capitalism.

The US has made decision about the war in Iraq long before the UN declaration, wonder does the UN has anypower these days?

I have already acknowledged your upset at his use of the word. Personally, I think he should apologise for this. But not for his call for dialogue.

What exactly do you expect Ireland to do other than to lend its voice? Invade China? You complain that we are sticking our nose in where we are not wanted when we call for dialogue and transparency, and in the same breath you criticise us for not sticking our nose in further. Which is it?

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted in 1948. I believe the US made the decision to invade Iraq in 2003. However, to address your point about the UN not having power, does that mean those who hold dear the values it espouses should just give up, or should we not to continue to call for dialogue and peaceful conflict resolution that respects humanity? It worked in Northern Ireland, eventually.

Pro C wrote: »

No. Thanks! Our country will never be torn apart!

This was the attitude many people on both sides of the NI issue here had for quite a long time. It didn't work. When both sides stopped shouting, shooting and staking their claims to this, that and the other, and actually sat down to discuss the matter, we got somewhere. It probably wasn't what either side had originally intended, but it was a peaceful solution that so far appears to be doing both sides a huge amount of good.

Pro C

Breezer wrote: »

I have already acknowledged your upset at his use of the word. Personally, I think he should apologise for this. But not for his call for dialogue.



What exactly do you expect Ireland to do other than to lend its voice? Invade China? You complain that we are sticking our nose in where we are not wanted when we call for dialogue and transparency, and in the same breath you criticise us for not sticking our nose in further. Which is it?

Thanks very much, his public apology on "Tibet is a country" will be enough, I fully agree with you there is dialogue needed, but after the olympics. I suggest in dealing with the Chinese in a manor that they regard as polite, bridges can be built, messages can be understood, it is not what you can't say, but in what way and when you are saying.

Breezer wrote: »

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights was adopted in 1948. I believe the US made the decision to invade Iraq in 2003. However, to address your point about the UN not having power, does that mean those who hold dear the values it espouses should just give up, or should we not to continue to call for dialogue and peaceful conflict resolution that respects humanity? It worked in Northern Ireland, eventually.



This was the attitude many people on both sides of the NI issue here had for quite a long time. It didn't work. When both sides stopped shouting, shooting and staking their claims to this, that and the other, and actually sat down to discuss the matter, we got somewhere. It probably wasn't what either side had originally intended, but it was a peaceful solution that so far appears to be doing both sides a huge amount of good.

The reason why we are still talking up to this point is that we all believe problems can be solved or we would have given up. Although UN is real weak this days, I don't lose my belief as long as the world is not ruled by a single country.



About NI, I don't want to comment, it is not my business and has nothing to deal with me at the end of the day.

Breezer

Pro C wrote: »

About NI, I don't want to comment, it is not my business and has nothing to deal with me at the end of the day.

I would disagree. While I know little about the specifics of the situation in Tibet, I would argue that the violence of the Troubles and the success of the Peace Process in Northern Ireland has applicability for conflicts everywhere, with some modification to suit the situation obviously.

I also don't see why dialogue should have to be put off until after the Olympics, but I am glad you see the need for it. I'll bow out of this discussion for a while now, see if it takes a new direction. Plus I need sleep

Pro C

See, when you know little, don't join in and express opinion and that's what lots of people do here. It may look at the face of it that the situations are similar, but they are not as in completely different backgroud involve people with different belief and value system.

No politics in this Olympics may result no politics in future Olympics,

Politics in this Olympics will definitely motivate people using this plateform in future Olympics,

Until then, there will be regrets!

Breezer

Pro C wrote: »

See, when you know little, don't join in and express opinion and that's what lots of people do here. It may look at the face of it that the situations are similar, but they are not as in completely different backgroud involve people with different belief and value system.

No politics in this Olympics may result no politics in future Olympics,

Politics in this Olympics will definitely motivate people using this plateform in future Olympics,

Until then, there will be regrets!

I haven't gone to sleep yet

I have not expressed any opinion on Tibet itself in this thread. I expressed opinion on Minister Gormley, on the need for dialogue in any violent situation and particularly where human rights are called into question, on China's reluctance to engage with western media or to allow western media to engage with China, and on Fianna Fáil's stance towards the USA.

Any conflict involves people with different beliefs and value systems and any conflict at any point in time the world over has benefited from dialogue. I did say that the process would need to be modified to fit a different situation.

I fail to see why a dialogue regarding Tibet cannot take place before or indeed alongside the Olympics. It would not have to interfere with or politicise the Olympics simply because it takes place at the same time.

Tomas_V

Pro C wrote: »

No. Thanks! Our country will never be torn apart!

You're saying 'no thanks' to the idea of dialogue and reconciliation with ones enemies?

yawtin

It is easy for you to say China is terrible in everyway. You are not living in a country that might possibly challenge the American superpowers.

edanto

Yawtin, you seem to be missing the point that people are making. No-one has said that China is terrible in every way.

Criticism of some actions of the Chinese government is not the same as a broad attack on Chinese people. You will have to learn the difference, or else debating here will get frustrating for you.

The US has a long and bad history of interfering in other countries - and for that I, for one, criticise them regularly. But that doesn't mean that I have anything against American people just for being American. Likewise on this Chinese issue.

leninbenjamin

edanto wrote: »

The US has a long and bad history of interfering in other countries - and for that I, for one, criticise them regularly. But that doesn't mean that I have anything against American people just for being American. Likewise on this Chinese issue.

good point. it's kind of funny how the pro-Chinese here selectively ignore our own protests against the wars in Iraq and military use of Shannon, against multinationals like Shell (etc.) and the accuse us of bias. You claim we don't understand China's diverse culture and history, which is a valid argument, but then seemingly make the same mistakes about us...

iron + board.

donaghs

The pro-China reaction here seems to be the hyper-nationalistic reaction which The Party like to use to deflect any criticism of their failings. A criticism of one aspect of the Chinese government is not a criticism of all Chinese people.

You need to understand that there is nothing to fear from an open discussion and listening to other people's point of view.

yawtin

edanto wrote: »

Yawtin, you seem to be missing the point that people are making. No-one has said that China is terrible in every way.

I totally understand what you are saying, but I really don't know how to let you understand the frustration I, and many other Chinese people, feel about the western media.

I admit my government has a lot of areas for improvement. We have been urging our government to reform for many years. What you could not see in the west is, there is plenty of power struggles within the Chinese communist Party, between the people who want to serve their country and people who are there to fulfil their own greed, between the new visions and the old ones.
It is not easy to be a good chinese government officer.

In the Chinese political hierachy today, most people are happy about the top leaders, it is on the local level where people are not so satisfied. Local governers, especially from poorer areas, often ignore the central government's policies and act as the dictators in their own regions and lie to their bosses.

We have seen a lot of bizarre things happening in China, a lot more than you could ever imagine. We have also seen many local dictators being brought to justice. We know a lot more about our country's problem than you guys.

The last 6 or 7 years I can see the good and highly capable guys start to have more advantages over the selfish powerseekers , in many way thank to the support from Chinese internet users (200 millions of them). however the areas the world complains the most about China, such as the propaganda department, are still in the hands of the old fashion "baddies", and we do hope the critism China receive from the world this time will help our leaders to get more strength to change them.

However there are risks. Chinese people do not want to risk the progress we already achieve by demanding the government to radically change something. In the past 20 years, radical changes rarely benefited us. We know our government is on the right track now so we are happy enough to take time with reformation.

On top of everything, now we are abroad, we can see the whole picture, therefore we become fully aware that some governments around the world don't like to see a stronger China. We used to simple-mindedly trust the Americans prior to 1989, but years later we realised that the American government were only using us. The Tibetans are just another target for the US government to provoke conflicks in our Area.

You think I could not differenciate between critism towards our government and Chinese people. But let me ask you, if you know your government is loyal to your people and is trying its best to make your country better, yet the world ignore your feeling and ignore all the effort this government is making to make the world a better place, would you feel responsible to defend it?


In the last week, there have been at least 100,000 Chinese people living in the western world protesting against western media's biased reports and supporting our motherland. Many of these people were also students on the Tiananmen Square in 1989. These protests were seldomly reported by your media. If you actually know about all these protests, would you please explain to me what is wrong with all these people?

Reporter

yawtin wrote: »

I totally understand what you are saying, but I really don't know how to let you understand the frustration I, and many other Chinese people, feel about the western media.

I admit my government has a lot of areas for improvement. We have been urging our government to reform for many years. What you could not see in the west is, there is plenty of power struggles within the Chinese communist Party, between the people who want to serve their country and people who are there to fulfil their own greed, between the new visions and the old ones.
It is not easy to be a good chinese government officer.

In the Chinese political hierachy today, most people are happy about the top leaders, it is on the local level where people are not so satisfied. Local governers, especially from poorer areas, often ignore the central government's policies and act as the dictators in their own regions and lie to their bosses.

We have seen a lot of bizarre things happening in China, a lot more than you could ever imagine. We have also seen many local dictators being brought to justice. We know a lot more about our country's problem than you guys.

The last 6 or 7 years I can see the good and highly capable guys start to have more advantages over the selfish powerseekers , in many way thank to the support from Chinese internet users (200 millions of them). however the areas the world complains the most about China, such as the propaganda department, are still in the hands of the old fashion "baddies", and we do hope the critism China receive from the world this time will help our leaders to get more strength to change them.

However there are risks. Chinese people do not want to risk the progress we already achieve by demanding the government to radically change something. In the past 20 years, radical changes rarely benefited us. We know our government is on the right track now so we are happy enough to take time with reformation.

On top of everything, now we are abroad, we can see the whole picture, therefore we become fully aware that some governments around the world don't like to see a stronger China. We used to simple-mindedly trust the Americans prior to 1989, but years later we realised that the American government were only using us. The Tibetans are just another target for the US government to provoke conflicks in our Area.

You think I could not differenciate between critism towards our government and Chinese people. But let me ask you, if you know your government is loyal to your people and is trying its best to make your country better, yet the world ignore your feeling and ignore all the effort this government is making to make the world a better place, would you feel responsible to defend it?


In the last week, there have been at least 100,000 Chinese people living in the western world protesting against western media's biased reports and supporting our motherland. Many of these people were also students on the Tiananmen Square in 1989. These protests were seldomly reported by your media. If you actually know about all these protests, would you please explain to me what is wrong with all these people?

Hi yawtin,

The main point Irish posters seem to be making is that if you got rid of the Chinese Communist party you guys would be better off.

Do you think its right that a bunch of people who elect themselves rule china as they want? Do ordinary Chinese people not have a say?

you said that the people at the top are good guys, Jian Zemin started the persecution of Falun Gong, Lou Gan has been the head of the Chinese security department for a long time, and the president Hu Jin Tao was responsible for the last crack down in Tibet in 1988.

Personally I think the Chinese people would be better off without this party. Remember the Communist system came from Europe and it failed here, it has failed nearly everywhere.

The best way to get rid of this system as far as I have found (open to correction) is simply by joining the millions who are quitting it:
http://tuidang.epochtimes.com/
http://en.epochtimes.com/211,95,,1.html

Personally I dont think China will ever be great under commuist rule, every time something happens like the Tibet issue this time, the communist party has the same reaction, violence, propaganda oppression.

Anythoughts

chopsticksit

where did u see that the Chinese ambassador had been told what would be happened during the convention? RTE new stated that the chinese ambassador wasn't told what would be going on before he went. please don't just bang here. Try to jeer Chinese people off the stage? please don't be so naive.

chopsticksit

r u talking about fairness here? a bit of talking will hurt a politically unstable situation. will make the whole chinese community hate u, image 1.3 billion people hate YOU, u r in trouble.

leninbenjamin

chopsticksit wrote: »

a bit of talking will hurt a politically unstable situation.

and your reasoning behind that sweeping statement is?

RedPlanet

Reporter wrote: »

Hi yawtin,

The main point Irish posters seem to be making is that if you got rid of the Chinese Communist party you guys would be better off.

Personally I think the Chinese people would be better off without this party.

So essentially you don't like the way the Chinese have treated Tibetans and so you want the Chinese people to rise up and overthrow their government and hopefully adopt a western-styled "democracy" and captialist system huh?

Yeah I'm sure they'll be getting right on that...:rolleyes:

Tomas_V

chopsticksit wrote: »

where did u see that the Chinese ambassador had been told what would be happened during the convention? RTE new stated that the chinese ambassador wasn't told what would be going on before he went.

Read this article on the RTE website:

"Speaking on RTÉ's This Week, Mr Gormley said the Chinese Ambassador had been informed in advance by the party's general secretary of what he was going to say about Tibet."

Has the Ambassador contradicted this statement?

yawtin

Reporter wrote: »

Hi yawtin,

The main point Irish posters seem to be making is that if you got rid of the Chinese Communist party you guys would be better off.

Do you think its right that a bunch of people who elect themselves rule china as they want? Do ordinary Chinese people not have a say?

you said that the people at the top are good guys, Jian Zemin started the persecution of Falun Gong, Lou Gan has been the head of the Chinese security department for a long time, and the president Hu Jin Tao was responsible for the last crack down in Tibet in 1988.

Personally I think the Chinese people would be better off without this party. Remember the Communist system came from Europe and it failed here, it has failed nearly everywhere.

The best way to get rid of this system as far as I have found (open to correction) is simply by joining the millions who are quitting it:
http://tuidang.epochtimes.com/
http://en.epochtimes.com/211,95,,1.html

Personally I dont think China will ever be great under commuist rule, every time something happens like the Tibet issue this time, the communist party has the same reaction, violence, propaganda oppression.

Anythoughts

If you know a bit more about our over 2000 years of history and our culture, you may realise that the ultimate maximiseation of personal value for an individual is achieved by serving our country and contributing to our society. It does not matter who is in charge, as long as the person in charge behave according to this value.

For me, election is good, only when there is perfect information. You know how lobbyists can influence politicians, and you know how personal image can be packaged. Even if you think you know everything about the politicians, can you be confident that everybody else is too? Did the Irish people elect the right prime minister the last time? Did they have many choices to choose from? How about why Bush was elected and reelected? Do people really make a better decision? Do forget, Hitler was leagally elected too.

We know the leaders we have now got their positions because they had many years of excellent record and they were training for years to be the successors. Think about big companies, the CEOs are not there because most of the emplyees love them, they are their because they had a track record to convince the board they are capable of the job. The Chinese leaders are focused on what is needed to be done to develop the country, rather than wasting time debating on marketing themselves. They are competing against each other in their work to get promoted. That is why China can develop faster than most other countries in the world.

Political fights in China in a higher level is much crueler than here, if a strong candidate does something wrong, there is plenty of people to drag them down. You think they are elected by themselves? I can tell you you are wrong.

Look at the Prime minister in China now. His name is Wen Jiabao, he was a core member of Chairman Zhao Ziyang, the pro-student No.2 politican in China back in 1989. Wen spent many years working in unimportant positions, but his strong capability in dealing with a big flood in China in1998 got him back into the scene. People who wanted his job had a big campaign to mock him last year, but after the toughest examination he still came out clear. I don't believe there is any Irish politician who is half as good as Wen.

Yes there is still a lot of tragedies in China these days, but the number has reduced a lot since 30 years ago. Many of the tragedies are caused by radical changes, lack of education, or lack of supervision, which are exactly what the central government is fighting against. I believe in 10 years time the human right record in China will be much better than it is now.

Communist is only a name, and a name really means nothing for us. What matters is we know good people join in this party to serve the country. We believe in democracy but we don't think the western style of democracy is the only way. I believe one day the Communist party will find a way to establish full democracy in China, but it definitely won't be in the same format as your democracy.

eoin5

yawtin wrote: »

If you know a bit more about our over 2000 years of history and our culture, you may realise that the ultimate maximiseation of personal value for an individual is achieved by serving our country and contributing to our society.

Contributing to society: Good Idea

Serving our country: doubtful, probably not if you think of all the good its done in the last 2000 years.

Pro C

It is getting ridiculous to keep going like this, you want to talk about China, I give you China and every single point below relates to China, so here is my summary,

Our ambassador’s job here is to form good relationship with Irish people, negotiating trade, encourage understanding of differences, exchanging cultural diversities, not tolerating impolite gestures. In fact, you did not see his work does not mean he did not do. It was well covered in our newspaper here, as it has interest in the mutual benefits and well-being between the people of the two nations. We have come with friendly mindset and in China we are genuinely welcoming foreign people with love, not like so many Irish only show it on the face. It has to be said that there are vast amount of Irish people with open mind-set, and we do respect those people, very much.

We do have human rights issues; nobody denied that, our government did not deny that. But so does the Americans and British with their prisoners of war, they have problems as well. I am not switching the focus; I am just comparing the like with like. We are improving, doing a better job than years ago. So, why do the West focus your comments on China all the time?

We do have censorship in China, but by and large we are happy where we are, the country does not appreciate your way of freedom, thanks very much. By the way, your media has control of what they want you to know as well, for instance, so many Westerners saw the photo that a student standing right in front of the Chinese Army tank on 6.4 and making assumptions that it crashed over him or fired at him, but the guy simply left after climbing up the tank and having a look, and how many of you knows that. The BBC simply stopped the tape right at where it gives you a scene that you can imagine what the worst scenario might be, why did they do that and isn’t it a form of censorship?

About Tibet, very clear, it was and is always part of China, 99% of Irish have never been there themselves, which is nearly 10,000 miles away from Ireland. How on earth do you think you know everything right through the LCD, maybe through your biased Western media, like the one above? If your media is always right, why did the Express Newspaper compensate Gerry McCann? If the Western government is always right, why there is no Weapon of Mass Destruction found in Iraq?

I am a patriot, in fact majority of Chinese are patriots even they may not be happy with the corruption of the government, but so is Bertie, corruption is everywhere; your government is not doing much better than ours at the end of the day. A slip of the tongue of a minister by calling Tibet is a country is totally unacceptable. Let alone, Tibet never wanted freedom; the Dalai Lama never wanted freedom of control but of religion. They wanted autonomy and they had been a TAR for year and they can be TAR as long as they wanted, which is consistent with the Chinese government policy towards the 7 SARs in China. If you are trying to divide our country, it is a very very serious insult, (if you didn’t know so just to let you know) just as much insult you will get from saying the land we are now standing on is part of the Great Britain, the only way you left us to defend your unfair attack and accusation is fire with fire. You guys may think this is aggressive, but the nature of the aggressiveness comes with a reason.

China never point its fingers at any other country before it resolves its own problems, whereas foreign countries, especially the West, have long established history of suppressing other countries freedom of dealing their internal affairs in their own way, and the West are always nosy about others’ issues before having their own issues sort it our first, who has more sensible mentality here? Yeah, we may be suppressing some minority people, but you are suppressing another country, which is crazier?

To give you a perfect example, you have your point by saying your way of solving problem by open dialogue, which I personally agree. But what about the West boycott the Olympic if China doesn’t buy your suggestion, isn’t it a suppressing? Is that what you do when your point is not taken? Isn’t it another slap on your own face?

Having said that, if a war is required regarding on Tibet or Tiawan, the integrity of motherland has the highest priority, that’s called self-esteem. China will do it at all cost, the US has already financed two and half wars, they simply can’t afford this one and their people can’t see American people die in a much much larger scale, and by the way, Shannon is not needed this time, too far, too small. Also, Russia is our very good buddy, just in case you don’t know.

Let’s have some about economics, shall we? It is not our cheap labour to be blamed for your loss of jobs and employments such as in Iralco, it is your choice, it is the sheer greedy of the West, the capitalism’s hanger for profits and how your economic theory works - your demand. If the Irish companies want survive and compete successfully in the global market in manufacturing or service sector, they had better known that other countries are not as laid back as the Irish, well maybe not to include the French. Your favourable tax regime will not last forever, your EU mates won’t allow that happening, and when it is done, lots of jobs will go, either head North or the far East and once it is gone, it is gone, unless other unique value added industries can be created and developed in these short phase of time, you are heading into a disasters situation, plus your education and the depth of your R&D is not the greatest of the world, few institutes are known to the globe, well apart from Trinity – to be fair – it can’t be seen why the housing price will go up when the economy is going down. I am not targeting the Irish people in particular but simply pointing out the problem, take it or not, it is your choice. And, how about that? If we were not offended in the first place, this would not be said.

Back to politics, there is an old Chinese saying is that “frog at the bottom of the well”, it is perfect to define Irish position on the whole issue. You are so lazy to go out there and find the truth yourselves, and the sky you can see from the bottom of the well, will be always the same size as the well.

If you think I am all alone sharing this view, then you are wrong.

eoin5

Pro C wrote: »

It is getting ridiculous to keep going like this, you want to talk about China, I give you China and every single point below relates to China, so here is my summary,

Our ambassador’s job here is to form good relationship with Irish people, negotiating trade, encourage understanding of differences, exchanging cultural diversities, not tolerating impolite gestures. In fact, you did not see his work does not mean he did not do. It was well covered in our newspaper here, as it has interest in the mutual benefits and well-being between the people of the two nations. We have come with friendly mindset and in China we are genuinely welcoming foreign people with love, not like so many Irish only show it on the face. It has to be said that there are vast amount of Irish people with open mind-set, and we do respect those people, very much.

We do have human rights issues; nobody denied that, our government did not deny that. But so does the Americans and British with their prisoners of war, they have problems as well. I am not switching the focus; I am just comparing the like with like. We are improving, doing a better job than years ago. So, why do the West focus your comments on China all the time?

We do have censorship in China, but by and large we are happy where we are, the country does not appreciate your way of freedom, thanks very much. By the way, your media has control of what they want you to know as well, for instance, so many Westerners saw the photo that a student standing right in front of the Chinese Army tank on 6.4 and making assumptions that it crashed over him or fired at him, but the guy simply left after climbing up the tank and having a look, and how many of you knows that. The BBC simply stopped the tape right at where it gives you a scene that you can imagine what the worst scenario might be, why did they do that and isn’t it a form of censorship?

About Tibet, very clear, it was and is always part of China, 99% of Irish have never been there themselves, which is nearly 10,000 miles away from Ireland. How on earth do you think you know everything right through the LCD, maybe through your biased Western media, like the one above? If your media is always right, why did the Express Newspaper compensate Gerry McCann? If the Western government is always right, why there is no Weapon of Mass Destruction found in Iraq?

I am a patriot, in fact majority of Chinese are patriots even they may not be happy with the corruption of the government, but so is Bertie, corruption is everywhere; your government is not doing much better than ours at the end of the day. A slip of the tongue of a minister by calling Tibet is a country is totally unacceptable. Let alone, Tibet never wanted freedom; the Dalai Lama never wanted freedom of control but of religion. They wanted autonomy and they had been a TAR for year and they can be TAR as long as they wanted, which is consistent with the Chinese government policy towards the 7 SARs in China. If you are trying to divide our country, it is a very very serious insult, (if you didn’t know so just to let you know) just as much insult you will get from saying the land we are now standing on is part of the Great Britain, the only way you left us to defend your unfair attack and accusation is fire with fire. You guys may think this is aggressive, but the nature of the aggressiveness comes with a reason.

China never point its fingers at any other country before it resolves its own problems, whereas foreign countries, especially the West, have long established history of suppressing other countries freedom of dealing their internal affairs in their own way, and the West are always nosy about others’ issues before having their own issues sort it our first, who has more sensible mentality here? Yeah, we may be suppressing some minority people, but you are suppressing another country, which is crazier?

To give you a perfect example, you have your point by saying your way of solving problem by open dialogue, which I personally. But what about the West boycott the Olympic if China doesn’t buy your suggestion, isn’t it a suppressing? Is that what you do when your point is not taken? Isn’t it another slap on your own face?

Having said that, if a war is required regarding on Tibet or Tiawan, the integrity of motherland has the highest priority, that’s called self-esteem. China will do it at all cost, the US has already financed two and half wars, they simply can’t afford this one and their people can’t see American people die in a much much larger scale, and by the way, Shannon is not needed this time, too far, too small. Also, Russia is our very good buddy, just in case you don’t know.

Let’s have some about economics, shall we? It is not our cheap labour to be blamed for your loss of jobs and employments such as in Iralco, it is your choice, it is the sheer greedy of the West, the capitalism’s hanger for profits and how your economic theory works - your demand. If the Irish companies want survive and compete successfully in the global market in manufacturing or service sector, they had better known that other countries are not as laid back as the Irish, well maybe not to include the French. Your favourable tax regime will not last forever, your EU mates won’t allow that happening, and when it is done, lots of jobs will go, either head North or the far East and once it is gone, it is gone, unless other unique value added industries can be created and developed in these short phase of time, you are heading into a disasters situation, plus your education and the depth of your R&D is not the greatest of the world, few institutes are known to the globe, well apart from Trinity – to be fair – it can’t be seen why the housing price will go up when the economy is going down. I am not targeting the Irish people in particular but simply pointing out the problem, take it or not, it is your choice. And, how about that? If we were not offended in the first place, this would not be said.

Back to politics, there is an old Chinese saying is that “frog at the bottom of the well”, it is perfect to define Irish position on the whole issue. You are so lazy to go out there and find the truth yourselves, and the sky you can see from the bottom of the well, will be always the same size as the well.

If you think I am all alone sharing this view, then you are wrong.

I share much of your criticism of western media and culture but back on topic if the ambassador walked out because of national pride then that is in turn a much more serious insult to the people who are being killed in the region.

At least Gormless has his heart in the right place and the ambassador should have the patience to see that.

Jim_Are_Great

yawtin wrote: »

For me, election is good, only when there is perfect information.

Couldn't agree with you more there. Democracy only functions with a fully informed electorate, something which Ireland has been woeful with since its independence.

yawtin wrote: »

Did the Irish people elect the right prime minister the last time? Did they have many choices to choose from? How about why Bush was elected and reelected? Do people really make a better decision?

People always make the best decision. That's the argument you have to refute. I didn't like the chap we elected, but at least I got a say. I had a fighting chance of electing someone else. If you're saying that people make poor decisions, why take the power to decide away from a group of people and give it to a small number of people instead? They're just as likely to mek poor decisions, and when they do, they will do so without the mandate of public opinion.

yawtin wrote: »

We know the leaders we have now got their positions because they had many years of excellent record and they were training for years to be the successors. Think about big companies, the CEOs are not there because most of the emplyees love them, they are their because they had a track record to convince the board they are capable of the job. The Chinese leaders are focused on what is needed to be done to develop the country, rather than wasting time debating on marketing themselves. They are competing against each other in their work to get promoted.

States and corporations aren't the same. A corporation exists for its own constant improvment and to compete. It has little or no moral or ethical constraint. A state, however, has greater duties. It must work for advancement, surely, but must also seek to protect vulnerable minorities who would not survive if the state was geared solely at progress. That is why corporations and states do not choose their leaders in the same manner.

yawtin wrote: »

I believe one day the Communist party will find a way to establish full democracy in China, but it definitely won't be in the same format as your democracy.

But ... the people have to exercise the power in a democracy. That's a non-negotiable part of of the system. What alternative do you propose?

Pro C wrote:

You second part must come from the stone age, obviously you haven't catch up with the pace, may went off for a few Dutch Gold, right?

I don't drink, and I actually think I made a fair point, Pro C, and it would be great if you responded to it.

Pro C wrote:

About NI, I don't want to comment, it is not my business and has nothing to deal with me at the end of the day.

Maybe it is, maybe it's not. But you still have a right to have an opinion and to express that opinion, just like everyone else does on every issure. Including China.

Interesting to note that the Maoist Party are gaining surprisingly big leads in the elections in Nepal. Nepal have always been friends with Tibet. I wonder if that will have any repercussions.
Also, Chinese forces have found arms stashed in a Tibetan Temple, it seems. Interesting to note.

Pro C

I don't know Gorm that well, heard of his name a few times,

if what Gorm said is a protest against Chinese government, then Mr. Liu's walk out is a protest against your government, we equal.

eoin5

Pro C wrote: »

I don't know Gorm that well, heard of his name a few times,

if what Gorm said is a protest against Chinese government, then Mr. Liu's walk out is a protest against your government, we equal.

This isnt a contest! People are being killed in the region and Gormless is trying his best to help by encouraging dialogue between the DL and Chinese Government. Mr. Liu Biwei let his pride get in the way.

leninbenjamin

Pro C wrote: »

if what Gorm said is a protest against Chinese government, then Mr. Liu's walk out is a protest against your government, we equal.

so encouraging dialogue is a form of protest now?

Pro C

You don't drink, good for you. You made your point, I made my points, it is a waste of time to debate with people on topics he has not got first hand experience, i.e. has to know something through a form of intermediary.

I do have a right to have an opinion and to express an opinion, but that doesn't mean I will express an opinion when I know I can make sure what I said is right, if not, what's the point?

What we are trying to do here is trying to correct your wrong views, you do have right one, ie. like human right issues, but we are encouraging you to go to China and have a look at it yourself.

One of the themes of Saturday's demostration is Welcome to Beijing, Welcome to China, you missed that obviously because it was not in your media domain.

Pro C

eoin5 wrote: »

This isnt a contest! People are being killed in the region and Gormless is trying his best to help by encouraging dialogue between the DL and Chinese Government. Mr. Liu Biwei let his pride get in the way.

yeah, he must try to help divide the country just by a slip of the tougue, funny.

eoin5

Pro C wrote: »

...we are encouraging you to go to China and have a look at it yourself.

Buy me a ticket and I'll go tomorrow

Pro C

No, seriously, go there when you get a chance, you won't regret, we do welcome foreign people come and have a good time.

Tomas_V

Pro C wrote: »

I don't know Gorm that well, heard of his name a few times,

His name is Gormley. It's a matter of respect to get people's name right. In Ireland we respect people even if we disagree with them.

Pro C wrote: »

Mr. Liu's walk out is a protest against your government, we equal.

He disrupted a political meeting of a party with conflicting views to his own, knowing in advance what would be said.

Normally, ambassadors do not do this no matter how much they disagree with what is said. Exhibitions of disgust or contempt at the exercise of free speech in our country is not normal diplomacy.