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Guy:Incognito

neuromancer wrote: »

Car insurance and NCT is a specific thing, the money generated from them goes towards what they are. Motortax doesn't..

es it does, it's a tax to own a motor vehicle. Nowhere is it said or implied it's a tax to fund road building.

neuromancer wrote: »

True. Many refer to motortax as "road-tax" or "car-tax", it's only use is that you NEED it to drive on the roads. Yet, most of it will never see a road. It's a stealth tax pure and simple then, for no use other than easy tax revenue. if it's going to be a tax for coffers, then why not call it VAT. Without the value of course.

Stealth tax? How so? It's open and honest about it's use and collection,not implied that it's for soemthing different or hidden in behind another tax.

neuromancer wrote: »

How much of government coffers spend on Port Tunnel to relieve City Centre conjestion? and it serves how much of the population.
LUAS? Oh yeah, serves how many people..

? Whats that got to do with anything?
Am I to assume the government should not build public transport and shoudl avoid building things that ease congestion?

neuromancer wrote: »

Wrong. You register a car in every country, where it's brought in as new owner. Are we the only greedy little county who fixes the price ot VRT, comparing it to the OMSP to tally up the "Tax".
..

Your misunderstanding . YOU (as in you the person, pay VRT once here. If you decide to go to another country you have to abide by their rules and pay to re register it, but this isnt an issue because you will have owned the car and wont have to pay it twice.

neuromancer wrote: »

Some money can be saved from importing, mostly on older motors. Not so much on brand new models, unless there is a waiting list for them here. And fyi, the vast majority of top end models are seized by customs for VRT not paid. Why, cause it's cheaper to buy it across the water and not pay the VRT on it, because the car is more expensive here WITH VRT paid, or more expensive here anyway without extras that push up the price here, that comes as standard elsewhere in Europe.
..

Do you make things up as you go along? We were talking about foreign people (mainly astern Europeans) comign in and not registerign their cars and the reasons for not doing so even though in most cases they will be VRT exempt.

neuromancer wrote: »

So?

A very exact emple of the above and the reasons for not registering your car.

neuromancer wrote: »

I'm not talking about accidents.

Yes you were. I used an example of a foreign reg'd car being involved in a hit and run to which you replied that could happen anywhere.

astraboy wrote: »

On the Road/Motor tax debate. FFS, who cares what its called:rolleyes:, its a tax to drive on the roads, you don't pay it if your car is off the road for 3 months do you?!
.

The name is fairly significant when the crux of the arguement being put forward is why we pay somehting called road tax that doesnt go towards roads.

astraboy

Well I pay a MOTOR Tax on my car, to drive it on public roads. If the car is off the road I don't pay it. I can own my car, not drive it on public roads and not pay motor tax, so it is not a tax on owning a motor car, it is a tax to drive on the roads. Therefore, logically, it is in all intensive purposes a road tax by another name. Call a spade a spade here. Motor tax should be ringfenced for road projects only, we might see value for our money then.

Lord Nikon

What he said.

Lord Nikon

Stekelly wrote: »

es it does, it's a tax to own a motor vehicle. Nowhere is it said or implied it's a tax to fund road building.

What are you talking about?? There is NO tax to own a vehicle. There is a tax you have to pay called Motortax, which allows you to drive on the raods, legally.

It may not imply that it's used for road funding, but then why is it called Motortax?

Stekelly wrote: »

Stealth tax? How so? It's open and honest about it's use and collection,not implied that it's for soemthing different or hidden in behind another tax.

Nowhere does it say that Motortax revenue is for government coffers, and not for motoring stuff.
Hidden tax it is...Motortax is to be paid as to be allowed legally to drive on the roads, yet, you have to pay an additional charge when driving on a Toll-Road. That's simple Double-Taxation. You are taxed twice to drive on the same road.

Stekelly wrote: »

? Whats that got to do with anything?
Am I to assume the government should not build public transport and shoudl avoid building things that ease congestion?

Yes, build public transportation, but why should people down the sticks fund huge projects(LUAS, Port Tunnel, M50 upgrade), with the money that they pay DIRECTLY to their Local County Council, since this money goes directly to the government for nationwide spending. Tax revenue collected my local CC's should be used for county infrastructure, ie local transport infrastructure - road networking.

Stekelly wrote: »

Your misunderstanding . YOU (as in you the person, pay VRT once here. If you decide to go to another country you have to abide by their rules and pay to re register it, but this isnt an issue because you will have owned the car and wont have to pay it twice.

True, but the one car is being reregistered throughout it's lifetime, by different owners if it moves across borders.

Stekelly wrote: »

Do you make things up as you go along? We were talking about foreign people (mainly astern Europeans) comign in and not registerign their cars and the reasons for not doing so even though in most cases they will be VRT exempt.

I'm not making anything up.
Yes the OP refers directly to someone of Estonian desent, but eastern europeans are not the only ones who drive around Ireland without paying VRT.

Stekelly wrote: »

Yes you were. I used an example of a foreign reg'd car being involved in a hit and run to which you replied that could happen anywhere.

You started to bring up about accidents, unrelated to VRT, imo.

The name is fairly significant when the crux of the arguement being put forward is why we pay somehting called road tax that doesnt go towards roads.

This is what i said.

Sizzler

This has gone slightly off the rails here :eek:

Plenty of people thinking its OK to drive around without getting rereg'd, if thats the case then why did they confiscate his X5

The more sensible are agreeing with the fact the car should be taxed / insured / NCT'd locally like the majority of other Irish road users.

Agree 100% with earlier poster who said car details should be recorded on arrival into the state.

Ferris

benifa wrote: »

A big problem is that there is no way of proving how long a vehicle has been in the country for.

Here's my idea:

Both the UK and Ireland (it would pointless unless both countries did this, on account of Northern Ireland), should introduce monitoring of all vehicles upon entry, regardless of the driver's intended duration of import (be it one day or permanently). The registration number (and possibly chassis number) should be recorded along with the date it comes in. Perhaps even intended address details for the driver / owner. The details should be put on a central database shared between both countries and accessible by the Gardai and Police. If the car is subsequently stopped for either a random check, Gardai / Police road block, or for any other reason, there is visibility of how long the vehicle has been in the Common Travel Area for, and therefore putting a stop to drivers who claim that they're here with their vehicle on a short term holiday.

Might it work do you think? I'm just thinking out loud really..

Sensible solution to the problem I think. Would give you in's and out's of a vehicle and remove the guess work by providing hard evidence. Also allow us to catch them for the e-tolls on the m50.

Kotek Besar

Ferris wrote: »

Sensible solution to the problem I think. Would give you in's and out's of a vehicle and remove the guess work by providing hard evidence. Also allow us to catch them for the e-tolls on the m50.

In Singapore, cars coming across the causeway from Malaysia, have to pay $20 per day entry tax. Their reg number is recorded and they pay on entry for however long they're going to be in Singapore. If they stay longer, any balance is payable upon exit, before the car and driver are allowed to leave. Malaysia has the same (or similar) system for foreign vehicles coming into Malaysia.

These systems are fair, in my opinion. Local drivers must pay a tax, in order for their cars to legally use the roads - foreign vehicles should too.

Also, as a condition of entry to the Common Travel Area, it should be compulsory for foreign registered vehicles to produce a valid MOT/NCT equivalent certificate, confirming road worthiness. The driver should also have to provide a certificate of insurance, evidencing at least third party cover for the duration of his intended stay.

astraboy

benifa wrote: »

In Singapore, cars coming across the causeway from Malaysia, have to pay $20 per day entry tax. Their reg number is recorded and they pay on entry for however long they're going to be in Singapore. If they stay longer, any balance is payable upon exit, before the car and driver are allowed to leave. Malaysia has the same (or similar) system for foreign vehicles coming into Malaysia.

These systems are fair, in my opinion. Local drivers must pay a tax, in order for their cars to legally use the roads - foreign vehicles should too.

Also, as a condition of entry to the Common Travel Area, it should be compulsory for foreign registered vehicles to produce a valid MOT/NCT equivalent certificate, confirming road worthiness. The driver should also have to provide a certificate of insurance, evidencing at least third party cover for the duration of his intended stay.

All well and good in Singapore, but its easy to do this with only 1 or 2 ways into the country by car! Ireland has many ferry services, never mind the cars coming over the border from the North which you must remember is still part of the UK, therefore ferry's from Scotland to the North would have no reason to record reg's. This system would be hugely complex to run, I'm telling you that now. It was impossible to put all the health services pay under one computer system(PPARS anyone!;)) so there is no way this could be implemented easily, especially with all those unpoliced backroads leading from the north to the republic.

How and ever, I do think people should pay for our road use while here. Legal residents of the EU can drive their cars here on home reg plates for up to 6 months, possibly more(someone can clarify) so with them I have no issue. Others can re-register for no VRT and a 50 euro fee. However many might go home every 6 months meaning they would not need to re-register until another 6 months is up, if you get me.:D

Finally:
Strange why no one has mentioned a really easy way of ensuring EVERYONE pays their way on Irish roads. Tax fuel. Remove road tax altogether (sorry Stekelly 'Motortax':)) or seriously reduce it, and place a tax on diesel and petrol to the tune of a cent or two per litre. People then pay per usage and tourists, non residents and Irish people all pay equally for the road usage.

The added benefit is that the cops would not need to enforce motortax anymore, and people driving less are rewarded more.

ardmacha

Yes, but the majority of Foreign reg plates are perfectly legal to drive on Irish roads, in fact you can drive for up to two years on them if you have ties at home and can prove it.

As the rules say "If a person's occupational ties are in a different country from his/her personal ties, then the country of personal ties is taken as the normal residence provided the person returns there regularly." There is no time limit on this, just as students never become resident here however long their course lasts. A lot of the discussion on this thread is not based on the actual situation. Working in a country for a while doesn't mean that you have moved to that country. If an Irish person goes abroad for a year it doesn't mean that they lose entitlement to benefits which are only available to Irish residents.This concept of stability in your normal residence is one reason why the revenue want proof that you had really moved to England if you want to bring back a car if you were living here and only went abroad for a short while. A large proportion of Eastern Europeans are in transient jobs and they come and go, they are not normally resident here. The EU is designed to facilitate movement and the rules reflect this.

Seth Brundle

what you have highlighted there isn't quite accurate but more of a guideline.
The VRO will want to see sufficient paperwork to prove that you have proper domestic ties there and not just calling into see your mother (YORE MAS!) for an hour before returning home.
My wife from Belfast had to go through this and in the end all the paperwork wasnt enough to keep them happy.As for most of the foreigners driving here long term - (without knowing them all) the majority are more than likely able satisfy the conditons to have to pay VRT!

astraboy

KBannon, if a polish guy has owned his car back in Poland for 6 months, he would be exempted from VRT.

I suspect many are saving here, flying home and buying their nice A6's etc in Poland and driving back, so they would be liable for VRT. IN fairness, I would try and get away without re-registering here too if I could, considering how expensive our tax, insurance etc is. Just using poland as an example BTW.

Seth Brundle

Yes he would but the fact is that many foreigners don't register with the VRO here. We don't have enough statistics to be able to tell how many of them are exempted from VRT but the fact remains that most are here on what the revenue define as a 'permanent' basis. Their cars therefore should have IRL plates on them!
By allowing this to happen effectively makes them immune from taxes, fines, etc.

astraboy

kbannon wrote: »

Yes he would but the fact is that many foreigners don't register with the VRO here. We don't have enough statistics to be able to tell how many of them are exempted from VRT but the fact remains that most are here on what the revenue define as a 'permanent' basis. Their cars therefore should have IRL plates on them!
By allowing this to happen effectively makes them immune from taxes, fines, etc.

Exactly. I know a Polish guy I used to work with that had a nice Volvo S60, was here over 2 years. Car still not re-regged, and he said he could just swop the polish reg if he was pulled on it! Well, maybe if motoring was'nt such a rip off in Ireland, they would consider it. Not saying what they are doing is right, but that is prob the reason for it. A lot might be to do with ignorance in regard to Irish registration law too.

Ferris

What happens if one of these cars runs into you. They can't cover a foreign reg car with irish companies.

I take it that they are insured in other countries saying that they are resident there, so they are misrepresenting to their insurance company.

How does this pan out in a claim and surely they can be done for invalid insurance.

craichoe

Ferris wrote: »

What happens if one of these cars runs into you. They can't cover a foreign reg car with irish companies.

I take it that they are insured in other countries saying that they are resident there, so they are misrepresenting to their insurance company.

How does this pan out in a claim and surely they can be done for invalid insurance.

Same procedure as with an Irish company, Italian colleague of mine was in a crash (which was his fault), he gave his italian insurance details and they dealt with it.

Kotek Besar

Ferris wrote: »

What happens if one of these cars runs into you. They can't cover a foreign reg car with irish companies.

I take it that they are insured in other countries saying that they are resident there, so they are misrepresenting to their insurance company.

How does this pan out in a claim and surely they can be done for invalid insurance.

It is compulsory, within the EU, for insurance companies to provide third party cover while driving your vehicle in another Member State.

If he has at least third party cover for the vehicle in his country of origin, the driver of a foreign, EU registered vehicle has valid insurance while in Ireland. Whether he stops at the scene of an accident however, knowing he can't be traced by the Gardai, is another matter.

Seth Brundle

benifa wrote: »

It is compulsory, within the EU, for insurance companies to provide third party cover while driving your vehicle in another Member State.

Any insurance company to my knowledge will offer about 20 days cover after you inform them of your trip. They don't provide overseas cover for the entire duration of the policy. I have never dealt with an Eastern European insuance company though so I can't speak for them!

craichoe

kbannon wrote: »

Any insurance company to my knowledge will offer about 20 days cover after you inform them of your trip. They don't provide overseas cover for the entire duration of the policy. I have never dealt with an Eastern European insuance company though so I can't speak for them!

Its 20 days cover if you DON'T inform them of your trip, its up to 3 months when you do and they supply a green card.

Seth Brundle

I'm just repeating what I have been told!

Alun

craichoe wrote: »

Its 20 days cover if you DON'T inform them of your trip, its up to 3 months when you do and they supply a green card.

I think that's a restriction that only UK and Irish insurers place on foreign travel. I don't recall any such restrictions being in place on my Dutch and German insurance policies when I lived there, where you automatically get a green card, which effectively is your insurance cert (I don't remember getting anything else resembling an insurance cert anyway). I assume Polish, Czech, Latvian etc. policies are the same.

Kotek Besar

kbannon wrote: »

Any insurance company to my knowledge will offer about 20 days cover after you inform them of your trip. They don't provide overseas cover for the entire duration of the policy. I have never dealt with an Eastern European insuance company though so I can't speak for them!

I think you're referring to the extension of your Comprehensive cover whilst abroad. That may vary between insurance companies and is not a legal requirement.

What I'm referring to is the provision of compulsory minimum level of cover required by Member States while using a foreign registered vehicle within it's territory. In short, in accordance with EU law, insurance companies must insure you against third party liability while driving in another Member State.

Ferris

What I mean is that they have lied to their Insurance companies because the address where the car is insured is not where the car is for most of the time.

The car and the owner are resident in Ireland but insured at an address in another company if you get what I mean. Can their insurance company invalidate the insurance because of this?

Kotek Besar

Ferris wrote: »

What I mean is that they have lied to their Insurance companies because the address where the car is insured is not where the car is for most of the time.

The car and the owner are resident in Ireland but insured at an address in another company if you get what I mean. Can their insurance company invalidate the insurance because of this?

No, because, as has been discussed on this thread, a person can live and work in Ireland but be still considered a non-resident if their country of personal ties not their country of occupational ties.

In short, if I'm from the UK and come to live and work in Ireland, but have no personal ties here, I am considered a non-resident and therefore not required to register my UK vehicle here (well, not for the first year).
http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/vrt2.htm

However, you were referring to the foreign insurance of a foreign vehicle being driven in Ireland. In the example above, no lie has been told to the insurance company, if the UK address of the vehicle, where it is registered, is my main residence in the UK (or, as the Irish Revenue Commissioners put it, the address in the country where I have personal ties).

Seth Brundle

benifa wrote: »

No, because, as has been discussed on this thread, a person can live and work in Ireland but be still considered a non-resident if their country of personal ties not their country of occupational ties.

In short, if I'm from the UK and come to live and work in Ireland, but have no personal ties here, I am considered a non-resident and therefore not required to register my UK vehicle here (well, not for the first year).
http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/vrt2.htm

according to that link:

3. What is meant by "State resident" and "non-resident"?

A "State resident" is a person whose normal residence is in the Republic of Ireland and a "non-resident" is anyone whose normal residence is outside this State. "Normal residence " means the place where a person usually lives (for at least 185 days each year) because of personal or occupational ties.
If a person's occupational ties are in a different country from his/her personal ties, then the country of personal ties is taken as the normal residence provided the person returns there regularly.
A person who is normally resident in the State but who lives outside the State primarily for the purpose of attending a school or university is regarded as a State resident.

Documentary proof is required to show that you return for these 185 days.

Kotek Besar

kbannon wrote: »

Documentary proof is required to show that you return for these 185 days.

This is not stated as a requirement. In any case, you are focusing on:

"Normal residence " means the place where a person usually lives (for at least 185 days each year) because of personal or occupational ties.

However, the next sentences go on to include provision for those whose personal ties and occupational ties are in separate countries:

If a person's occupational ties are in a different country from his/her personal ties, then the country of personal ties is taken as the normal residence provided the person returns there regularly.

For example: a Czech national works in Ireland and his family are exclusively in the Czech Republic. Therefore, his personal ties are in the Czech Republic and his occupational ties are in Ireland. Since, according to the Irish Revenue Commissioners, "If a person's occupational ties are in a different country from his/her personal ties, then the country of personal ties is taken as the normal residence provided the person returns there regularly.", the Czech national is therefore normally resident in the Czech Republic and a non-resident of Ireland, providing that he returns to the Czech Republic regularly (define regularly?).

Any imported vehicle which is owned by or registered in the name of a non-resident person is not required to be registered in Ireland subject to the following conditions:

* The vehicle must have been acquired with all the appropriate taxes paid and these must not have been exempted or refunded in any way. The standard registration plates in use in the domestic market of a country are normally accepted as evidence of this.
* The vehicle may not in any circumstances be driven by a State resident.
* The vehicle may not be disposed of or hired out in the State or lent to a State resident.
* The period of time that the vehicle is in the State does not exceed 12 months.
* The 12 months time limit will not apply where a person is on a task of definite duration in the State.

http://www.revenue.ie/index.htm?/leaflets/vrt2.htm

DublinDilbert

kbannon wrote: »

Documentary proof is required to show that you return for these 185 days.

I guess that is the problem in the case of the north of Ireland, how do your prove legally where someone is in the republic of ireland short of introducing border controls/checks. Also with the likes of the M1 in an hour from dublin your up in Newry.

Seth Brundle

DublinDilbert wrote: »

I guess that is the problem in the case of the north of Ireland, how do your prove legally where someone is in the republic of ireland short of introducing border controls/checks. Also with the likes of the M1 in an hour from dublin your up in Newry.

This is what happened my wife. They wanted bank statements, phone and other bills, etc. to prove that she was in the North when she claimed to be.
She did provide them but not enough to make them believe her! :mad:

astraboy

kbannon wrote: »

This is what happened my wife. They wanted bank statements, phone and other bills, etc. to prove that she was in the North when she claimed to be.
She did provide them but not enough to make them believe her! :mad:

So did you have to take the VRT hit?! This is what disgusts me about how VRT is enforced, if you get a customs officer with a problem he can say your paper work is not good enough and put you through so much hassle. I'm sure no other EU citizens have to go through this when going to any other EU country!:mad:

Seth Brundle

Yup - it was nearly 10 years ago. She had to pay about IR£1k on a poxy little 4yo Pug 106!

Seth Brundle

...and I still bear the hostility towards them