Why straddle?

strewelpeter

Can anyone give me a good reason for putting a straddle (live or otherwise) into a live cash game?

I'm asking in particular about the 1/2 PL games played in Dublin and around the country. Turning a 1/2 NL game into a 1/2/5 game so that it is raked as 1/2 is +ev as long as you want to be playing a 2/5 game.

Especially in a game where only a few players are putting it in, how can it be +Ev to be putting in 2.5 bb's blind and out of position?

The Tourist

There was some discussion of straddles recently in here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055267628

Straddles = waste of money imo. I recently watched a guy bust in the SE 1/2/5 game, reach into his pocket, buyin for €50, and immediately post €5 optional straddle. Hello?

I never post it.

Lafortezza

Bad players make more profitable mistakes (in your favour) in bloated pots?

El Stuntman

it really annoys aforementioned €50 buy-inners

like it or not, the game is now playing quite deep (I'd say average buy-in now is 4/500) and so it's just become a mechanism to avoid paying rake at a 2/5 level

DeadParrot

Personally, I dont like it.
I find you can end up playing bloated pots OOP with marginal or downright terrible holdings

El Stuntman

the key word is 'optional' btw

if you don't want to put it in, you should be happy someone else is doing it, no?

KINGofHEARTS

lafortezza wrote: »

Bad players make more profitable mistakes (in your favour) in bloated pots?

Exactly

strewelpeter wrote: »

Can anyone give me a good reason for putting a straddle (live or otherwise) into a live cash game?

I'm asking in particular about the 1/2 PL games played in Dublin and around the country. Turning a 1/2 NL game into a 1/2/5 game so that it is raked as 1/2 is +ev as long as you want to be playing a 2/5 game.

Especially in a game where only a few players are putting it in, how can it be +Ev to be putting in 2.5 bb's blind and out of position?

It's done to build pots and get that extra money into the pot, is that not fairly obvious ???

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

mdwexford

Create action, to look cool, endless reasons.

SpencerJames

When you straddle, there will be a variety of reactions. Most importantly, there ARE reactions and hopefully you can read these and anticipate reactions to manipulate the game conditions to your favor.
Firstly, people tighten their play significaly when the straddle is introduced. This creates a lot of heads up play. Then something strange happens. Someone gets frustrated, annoyed or bored, raises preflop and takes the pot down with a poor hand like 79suited. What? He raised with79! Then the first raise loose a lot of value and respect and people start to call with cards that they would never have called with for 2 or so bets. So, you get a lot of big pots multi-way. Obviously this has advantages and disadvantages. Lloyd is wrong I believe in saying that it favors the weaker player. Is this not the situation the better player wants? Bigger pots against poorer players who are playing with substandard holdings?
The age old argument is why straddle because you will be involved in a lot of multiway big pots with marginal hands that you won’t quite know where you are. This is true; the action is looser and faster. But the better player should be confident in his/her ability to out play the weaker player in these situations. Also when you do pick up a monster you are more likely to get looked up and with a ton of dead money in the middle.
I play the straddle all the time. It creates more information for me. For example when there’s no straddle I find myself calling in position with very marginal hands. In the straddle I play fewer pots. This saves me the money that I use for the straddle and when I do play a hand I have more information to place my reads on, I have a bigger pot. When I have skilled players to my left, I love to straddle. They won’t play marginal hands that they would play normally for cheap oop. They reveal the strength of their hand to me. By raising a straddled pot utg or utg+1 I have a lot more information where I stand. When there’s tons of limpers, I’ll get to see a flop cheap on the button (with a hand no one can put me on)
All of that and simply acting last preflop is worth two big bets to me? How is this a bad play! I feel very strongly about this.
When it is right NOT to straddle?When done at the right times and in the right spot, it helps your hourly a bunch and allows you to maximize your skill.
Don’t straddle if you don’t play well in awkward situations or doubt your ability. This should go without saying. It favors the Lag player for sure. Plus the games in Dublin are playing deep so rake is an issue.

phantom_lord

good for your image, i used to do it when i played live to avoid looking like a complete nit.

mdwexford

Changing the font to that crap hurts my eyes therefore i dont read the posts, why do people do it, do they think it makes their posts stand out and more people will read them???!!!

Rant over.

cooker3

I AGREE

califano

mdwexford wrote: »

Changing the font to that crap hurts my eyes therefore i dont read the posts, why do people do it, do they think it makes their posts stand out and more people will read them???!!!

Rant over.

I think this happens when people compose their post in microsoft word and copy and paste. Closet perfectionist like yuletired imo.

Russh

Yeah....It's tough on the 'ol peepers, but worth reading nontheless......

bops

because it's generally a good thing to give your nuts a bit of breathing space

strewelpeter

KINGofHEARTS wrote: »

It's done to build pots and get that extra money into the pot, is that not fairly obvious ???

Fair enough but I was thinking more in terms of how and why it would be +eV

phantom_lord wrote: »

good for your image, i used to do it when i played live to avoid looking like a complete nit.

Thats a good point and is the only reason I have for the odd occasion I have straddled (other than playing a de facto 2/5 game)

SpencerJames wrote: »

...Firstly, people tighten their play significaly when the straddle is introduced.

This is not my experience of it, I see very little shift from business as usual.

The rest of your points are well made and give plenty of food for thought, though I'm not convinced. Good post, thanks.

Goodluck2me

mdwexford wrote: »

Changing the font to that crap hurts my eyes therefore i dont read the posts, why do people do it, do they think it makes their posts stand out and more people will read them???!!!

Rant over.

Id much rather that, than poor speelingz and gramir.

SpencerJames

I say that at the start people tighten but then it lossens up and people play with less than marginal hands

max_power

"Ah shure I had to defend me straddle"

RoundTower

lloyd,

here's a thought experiment

suppose you are playing a pot limit game against a fish (you can think of someone specific if you like, or just a generic fishy guy)

you each have €10,000 stacks and you get to choose the blind levels.

You will get to play for four hours, no more, no less. If either of you go broke in that time you will reload to €10,000. What blinds do you choose to maximize your expected win?

Obviously €200-€500 would not be ideal, but €1-€2 would be even worse.

cardshark202

I think a lot of people in this thread seem to still be confusing a straddle with a blind-raise. A straddle is live, a blind raise it not.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

RoundTower

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

we don't have 10k stacks. we have 300 - 800 stacks most of the time. And we get to play for more than four hours.

that's irrelevant.

I'm just making it clear that decreasing the effective stack depth doesn't increase the edge of a good player.

LuckyLloyd

This post has been deleted.

cardshark202

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

You said this in the other thread aswell. Eventhough it acts like a third blind that is hardly a good thing, right? I mean, even for winning players the blinds will be their least profitable positions on most tables.

Yes but it increases the profitability of the other positions. When you straddle you are making the game twice as big perhaps, but you are not halving your winrate which you would need to be doing to make straddling a futile exercise

RoundTower

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Lets say we play headsup and we aren't going to reload above our original buyin. Would you rather play me with 150 - 200BB stacks or 40 - 60BB stacks? Lets say you reckon you win most of the time unless I get lucky (which I would definitely need to in order to win). Which format gives me a better chance?

and this isn't close to the same situation either

strewelpeter

cardshark202 wrote: »

Yes but it increases the profitability of the other positions.

But you are not in the other positions when you are throwing dead money into
the pot. OK if everyone is doing it then its a 2/5 game. If a few people are doing it then it is only to your advantage if you are in position relative to them.

I don't see how it being a live straddle or a blind raise makes a huge difference. The only time the fact of a straddle being live comes into play is when the pot is limped around to a straddler that wants to inflate the pot further. which is pretty unusual in my experience.

Often its like there is a 2/5 and a 1/2 game going on at the same table. Good position against LAGs (good or not) who are building pots out of position should be profitable for a competent player.

bohsman

strewelpeter wrote: »

I don't see how it being a live straddle or a blind raise makes a huge difference. The only time the fact of a straddle being live comes into play is when the pot is limped around to a straddler that wants to inflate the pot further. which is pretty unusual in my experience.

Thats because its being used wrong by most people - a straddle should lead to a decent player raising very light in position giving the straddler a chance to 4 bet even lighter, if nobody raises the straddle they are probably weak so you should pump it.

The only time Ive really pushed for a straddle was in Mr Flibbles home game, there was a max buyin and Id won a few pots leaving me with nearly double the cap, - think it was 1/2 with 300 max buyin, my stack was around 600., making it 1/2/5 with 300 max buyin made sense. Still went home skint.

Jayminator

strewelpeter wrote: »

But you are not in the other positions when you are throwing dead money into
the pot. OK if everyone is doing it then its a 2/5 game. If a few people are doing it then it is only to your advantage if you are in position relative to them.

I don't see how it being a live straddle or a blind raise makes a huge difference. The only time the fact of a straddle being live comes into play is when the pot is limped around to a straddler that wants to inflate the pot further. which is pretty unusual in my experience.

Often its like there is a 2/5 and a 1/2 game going on at the same table. Good position against LAGs (good or not) who are building pots out of position should be profitable for a competent player.

Hi Tony,
I love the live straddle for a number of reasons. A lot of these reasons have already been spoken about by Spencer J. Anyhow for me a live straddle (not a blind raise) makes for a better more interesting few hours of poker.

Towards the end of last year I was getting so so p**sed off at the bad play/ silly out draws etc etc that your normal 1/2 PL game allows for. Big pairs in 1/2 PL games became worthless in a limped pot etc etc. You make it €7 in early position with a premium PP and you got 7 or 8 callers. Ur screwd.... Nobody ever ever in the SE particularly, had the balls to re pop pots from an initial raiser and this became hugely frustrating for me.

The live straddle now allows you inflate pots to e.g €18 in early position so people are mucking marginal holdings more often. It creates more HU play and allows for a lot more real poker to be played.. (squezzing etc etc). You find out where you stand much easier when it gets more expensive to play pre flop and hugely reduces the outdraws by the oul 79H, 34D type hands.

So my reasons
1) Creates bigger pots which I feel will be more profitable in the long run than worrying about whether its +EV to post the live straddle in the first place.
2) Clears out a lot of the rubbish holdings and reduces multiway pots.
3) Its just way more fun than the normal 1/2 PL call call call call scenario.
4) I get greedy when I see 3 or 4 €5 limpers and get a bit crazy (sometimes) squeezing the s**t out of pots.
5) You get HU more often with the fish who will still call €18 or €25 pre flop with the Ace rag hand cos they re sooooted and these are the people you want to be in pots against.
6) The better players are folding their marginal hands OOP more often and they re the people you dont want to be in pots against.
7) AND FINALLY........ Its great craic

mickc

spencer james = john darr?

http://www.parttimepoker.com/poker-strategy-articles/052007/how-does-straddling-work.html

if not.. tut tut!!

Marq

you get to say strudle.

Lafortezza

Marq wrote: »

you get to say strudle.

On the veritable venetian.

ArmaniJeanss

mickc wrote: »

spencer james = john darr?

http://www.parttimepoker.com/poker-strategy-articles/052007/how-does-straddling-work.html

if not.. tut tut!!

Excellent detective work.

mickc

[x] way too much time on my hands

TommyGunne

Basically what RoundTower said. And obv the point on rake is really important, and P_L's one on image.

Really its just a way of getting bad players money faster. Assuming you are rolled for 2/5, and assuming most live players are really really bad, and that you have a BIG edge over them, letting the game be straddled to 1/2/5 is really profitable for you. You just get the retards money faster. These are generally pretty fair assumptions as well.

Obv if you're the only person in the game straddling your just being an idiot, but if you can induce a few guys to do this as well as yourself, particularly UTG to your BTN and CO, then you get yourself in really good spots.

bohsman

phantom_lord wrote: »

good for your image, i used to do it when i played live to avoid looking like a complete nit.

It really didnt work.

mormank

Marq wrote: »

you get to say strudle.

and the dealer gets to say player x is paddling!!! yes, sir, its a live straddle, in fact, its the most live straddle in this room!! [pause for laughter]

Tom Hanlon

ok, my 2 cents.

You have an advantage in poker if you are playing within a comfort zone and if putting a live straddle you take other people out if theirs it will definitely be an advantage to you. Some people play poker like matching symbols so you can bully these players easily enough. The lineup and size of the tanks at the table should influence your decision whether to straddle or not. Their is no point going a $5 straddle if the average tank is $50 as if they call the $5 they are nearly pot commited for their tank and there will be no real poker play in the hand.

My main experience is at PLO where a live staddle will help you keep pressure on limpers and if players want to draw to anti percentage draws then this will ensure they pay a heavy price for doing so.


Tom

strewelpeter

Tom Hanlon wrote: »

Some people play poker like matching symbols so you can bully these players easily enough.

I love that line.

Jayminator wrote: »

6) The better players are folding their marginal hands OOP more often and they re the people you dont want to be in pots against.
7) AND FINALLY........ Its great craic

Lots of good stuff there. Thanks.

I've always been delighted to see other people putting it on when I'm in position but couldn't see any reason for it.
I think the thing I'd need to change in order to make strudelling worthwhile is to play a bit deeper than the 2 -300 I've always used.

Conbro

You have an advantage in poker if you are playing within a comfort zone and if putting a live straddle you take other people out if theirs it will definitely be an advantage to you.

+1