Purchasing Ammo On My Behalf?

It wasn't me!

Tbh, I think the water would be more than a wee bit hotter if it were for their sporting purposes. I mean, that opens up a whole can of worms labelled "Here's my firearms cert, go buy some ammo and have fun, the keys to the gunsafe are over the fridge", and I think it best that one be avoided. To be honest, the judge probably didn't write the law, and he can't interpret something of it that isn't written into it, so you're going to be perfectly fine, not a bother.

Vegeta

It wasn't me! wrote: »

Tbh, I think the water would be more than a wee bit hotter if it were for their sporting purposes.

Man am I bad at articulating myself.

If my post above suggests that any other person bar the license holder will be using the firearm or ammunition then I apologise as it was not my intention.

It wasn't me!

Ah, woops, I think I may have misconstrued what you said there then.

Gunter Mauser

A grey area is an area where no clear legislation or precedent exists, or where the law has not been applied in a long time thus making it unclear if it is applicable at all.
A loophole is a weakness or exception that allows a system, such as a law or security, to be circumvented or otherwise avoided. Loopholes are searched for and used strategically in a variety of circumstances, including taxes, elections, politics, the criminal justice system, or in breeches of security. In a security system, the one who breaches the system (such as an inmate escaping from prisonor a terrorist) exploits the loophole during breach. Such weaknesses are often studied in advance by the violator, who spends time observing and learning the routine of the system and sometimes conducts surreptitious tests until such a loophole can be found.

Sparks

Sadly, we've got a fair few grey areas in firearms law in Ireland, but the few loopholes I know of are ones that benefit the Gardai rather than the shooters

Vegeta

Sparks wrote: »

Sadly, we've got a fair few grey areas in firearms law in Ireland, but the few loopholes I know of are ones that benefit the Gardai rather than the shooters

yeah if they did benefit us we'd all be ranting and raving about them and they'd be tightened up quick sharp

Gunter Mauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sikamick
I would hope that whoever is appointed to the position of shooting forum Mod is given access through Devore to his contact in the DOJ.

This would get true answers to a lot of the questions like (THE CARRYING FOR SPORT a other persons firearm/ammunition).

This posting is not meant to be disrespectful to any boards user putting their thoughts in relation to the firearms law, but a way of getting the facts straight from the DOJ.

Quote rrpc..No offence to the DoJ, but all you'll get from them is an opinion which is about as valid as anyone else's opinion. The final arbiter of what a law actually means is a judge in court. We've had plenty of laws here that were meant to do something, but were found to mean something else entirely when they reached court.

Right up to the level of the constitution. Anyone remember the 'X' case?

I would take it that the DOJ legal section have access all the way to the top regarding legal advice. Taking a case to court is costly ask Pat Kenny. If you intend to stand your ground and are prepared to go head to head with the enforcers of law in this state the Judge who may very well back the local super then go ahead. Better to find out first
what the Doj has to say on this matter then look at the overall situation
regarding the concerns of the shooting community. It was mentioned here all ready to have nominated persons approved possibly is the way to
please all. From the Joj prospective why bother doing a background
check give out a licenses for said firearm if joe bloggs / MBF carries
for you the license holder when ever you want at your behest?

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

I would take it that the DOJ legal section have access all the way to the top regarding legal advice. Taking a case to court is costly ask Pat Kenny. If you intend to stand your ground and are prepared to go head to head with the enforcers of law in this state the Judge who may very well back the local super then go ahead. Better to find out first
what the Doj has to say on this matter then look at the overall situation
regarding the concerns of the shooting community. It was mentioned here all ready to have nominated persons approved possibly is the way to
please all. From the Joj prospective why bother doing a background
check give out a licenses for said firearm if joe bloggs / MBF carries
for you the license holder when ever you want at your behest?

I'm afraid rrpc has a point. The opinions of anyone in the DoJ firearms section (or even the opinion of the Minister himself) do not carry any legal weight. They may persuade you or I that something is legal, but at the end of the day you could still end up in court for it.

Realistically, if you call the DoJ firearms people you'll get their opinion. They may or may not consult the AG before giving it (my guess is that they won't) and they may or may not have any formal legal training. Their best guess is going to be pretty good but at the end of the day it's still a best guess. They can't predict the actions of the Gardai or the opinions of a judge.

If you have a barrister or solicitor in the family you'd probably get advice which is just as useful. (Try it out, see how many times he/she will say "I dunno, that would be up to the interpretation of the judge if it went to court".)

Gunter Mauser

IRL Connor. From what you are saying, this area of the firearms act is open to interpretation which appears to fall down to the descension of the garda on the ground and his superiors.
If a farmer rings his best friend and asking him, quick can you bring the shotgun from the house I have dogs troubling the sheep, your friend gets stopped by the local garda
chances are he will let your friend pass as the Garda knows the local community well.

If on the other hand your friend gets get stopped at a check point in a large metropolitan area with a pistol & ammo in the glove box with your licence only as proof as to why he / she is transporting on your behalf, the Garda and ultimately his superiors could take completely the opposite view going all the way taking a case to court. If your friend happened to have some sort of minor conviction not declared to the firearms holder this also could add weight to the final outcome.

This aspect of the firearms law appears not to be very definite in its meaning and how
it should be applied, the licensee has to make an educated guess into the unknown hoping for the best or take no such chance in the first place.:(

Sikamick

rrpc wrote: »

No offence to the DoJ, but all you'll get from them is an opinion which is about as valid as anyone else's opinion. The final arbiter of what a law actually means is a judge in court. We've had plenty of laws here that were meant to do something, but were found to mean something else entirely when they reached court.

Right up to the level of the constitution. Anyone remember the 'X' case?

---

rrpc I totally agree with you but I would err on the side of caution rather than end up in a cell. I have checked this with a number of Garda and they have told me if your caught in possession of a firearm or ammunition without a license be prepared to end up in a cell.

I have also e-mailed the DOJ and asked them to clarify this, I await their reply.

If you love your sport and enjoy it, do you really want to wait for a couple of years without your fireams for it to be settled in court.

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

IRL Connor. From what you are saying, this area of the firearms act is open to interpretation which appears to fall down to the descension of the garda on the ground and his superiors.
If a farmer rings his best friend and asking him, quick can you bring the shotgun from the house I have dogs troubling the sheep, your friend gets stopped by the local garda
chances are he will let your friend pass as the Garda knows the local community well.

If on the other hand your friend gets get stopped at a check point in a large metropolitan area with a pistol & ammo in the glove box with your licence only as proof as to why he / she is transporting on your behalf, the Garda and ultimately his superiors could take completely the opposite view going all the way taking a case to court. If your friend happened to have some sort of minor conviction not declared to the firearms holder this also could add weight to the final outcome.

This aspect of the firearms law appears not to be very definite in its meaning and how
it should be applied, the licensee has to make an educated guess into the unknown hoping for the best or take no such chance in the first place.:(

That part of the Firearms Act is (to my eyes) open to plenty of interpretations none of which are correct until a judge sets a precedent. The interpretation doesn't really fall down to the Garda though. From what I can tell they will apply the law as they know it; real interpretation comes later if it ever sees a judge.

There are several things to worry about when trying to decide to do any action in regards to a firearm:

1. If I get stopped by a Garda, what are the chances of him hauling me in based on his/her knowledge of the law? This boils down to "Do I think what I'm about to do is legal? Even if it is legal, will it look dodgy to a Garda with only a cursory knowledge of firearms law?"
2. If I get hauled in by a Garda, how easy will it be for me/my solicitor to convince him that what I did was legal? (Like in the case of an honest misunderstanding by the Garda.) If it was illegal, what are the odds on the Garda seeing it for the innocent mistake that it was and letting me off?
3. If the Garda decides to charge me and send me for prosecution, what are my odds on being convicted by a judge? (You really need expert legal advice to make a decision on this one.)

Now, obviously you don't want to risk getting to stage 3) because by that stage you've already lost. You're just finding out how much you've lost.

The problems don't just extend to areas of the law which are open to interpretation. There's plenty of scope for trouble with the cast iron bits too:

• How many Gardai are aware that moderators are legal with permission?
• How many Gardai do you reckon still think "pistols are illegal"?
• How many Gardai are aware of all of the exceptions (the ones that are beyond doubt) where you don't need a license to carry or use a firearm?

It's not their fault really, the average Garda just don't get enough training and experience to be properly equipped to enforce firearms law.

Sikamick

IRLConor, Whether or not the Garda the stops you is totally up to date on firearms law, the answer I got from a number of Garda some of which are members of our club, be prepared to be arrested and end up in a cell and be brought to court.

I think the senior reps in the sports should be advising their members to err on the side of caution always and one wonders will they be in court to represent you having followed their bad advice.

Is there any one of us brave enough to test this law.

Also can anyone in this country get a firearm without needing license.

IRLConor

Sikamick wrote: »

IRLConor, Whether or not the Garda the stops you is totally up to date on firearms law, the answer I got from a number of Garda some of which are members of our club, be prepared to be arrested and end up in a cell and be brought to court.

I better not get stopped by any of them then. I don't have a license yet have legally transported firearms to and from competitions and shot there.

Now, in those circumstances I'm not too worried because I don't believe there are many Gardai out there who would haul me in for not having a license when I have a removal order signed by a super with my name on it, but I do have a small worry that I'll bump into a Garda who would. I'm pretty sure I won't end up in court over it anyhow.

Sikamick wrote: »

I think the senior reps in the sports should be advising their members to err on the side of caution always and one wonders will they be I court to represent you.

Is there any one of us brave enough to test this law now.

I definitely don't want to test the law and I don't want to advocate that anyone else tries to either.

That said, there are some circumstances where the law is unequivocally on your side yet a Garda may not know any better and haul you in for it. Would you advocate avoiding using those parts of the law too?

Sikamick

Quote IRLconor=Now, in those circumstances I'm not too worried because I don't believe there are many Gardai out there who would haul me in for not having a license when I have a removal order signed by a super with my name on it, but I do have a small worry that I'll bump into a Garda who would. I'm pretty sure I won't end up in court over it anyhow.

Conor I think if you have any type of document/authorization signed by a super for as mentioned above you would have no problem, just my opinion.

rrpc

Sikamick wrote: »

IRLConor, Whether or not the Garda the stops you is totally up to date on firearms law, the answer I got from a number of Garda some of which are members of our club, be prepared to be arrested and end up in a cell and be brought to court.

I think the senior reps in the sports should be advising their members to err on the side of caution always and one wonders will they be I court to represent you.

Is there any one of us brave enough to test this law now.

There are a number of reasons why they would be wrong to do so. A member of a club using a firearm under an authorisation is also entitled to have ammunition in his possession as well as the firearm. No licence required or produced. Then there are all the other exceptions to section two: 18 in all. A Garda who says that they would arrest somebody with a firearm or ammunition without a licence is ignoring the fact of all those exceptions to the requirement to have a firearms certificate.

So lets just list them shall we?

A courier, a postman, a warehouse owner, an auctioneer, a firearms dealer, an employee of a firearms dealer, an emplyee of a shipping company, a member of a ships crew, an employee of an airport (for bird control), a member of staff of the IIRS (as was), a club member under an authorisation, a member of a theatrical company, a holder of a permit - not a licence btw, a member of the Defence Forces, a member of the Garda Siochana, a butcher; slaughterer or knacker (no jokes please ), a person using a shooting gallery (or it's owner), a person using a starting pistol and blanks for races and a person under instruction from and for the use of a firearms certificate holder for sporting purposes.

So if you're in any doubt, get the shop to post your ammo to you.

Happy?

IRLConor

Sikamick wrote: »

IRLconor wrote:

Now, in those circumstances I'm not too worried because I don't believe there are many Gardai out there who would haul me in for not having a license when I have a removal order signed by a super with my name on it, but I do have a small worry that I'll bump into a Garda who would. I'm pretty sure I won't end up in court over it anyhow.

Conor I think if you have any type of document signed by a super for as mentioned above you would have no problem, just my opinion.

Exactly, it was the point I was trying to make. There are circumstances where you can transport or use firearms without holding a license for them (and in the case of say, a courier company they'll have no paperwork for the firearm at all). Sure, you run the risk of being arrested for it, but it's highly unlikely to go any further than the local Garda station.

Sikamick

Quote=-IRLconor That said, there are some circumstances where the law is unequivocally on your side yet a Garda may not know any better and haul you in for it. Would you advocate avoiding using those parts of the law too

---

If I was positive that the Garda was in the wrong I would stand my ground but that wont save me possibly spending the night in a cell.

This happens all of the time where an over ambitious Garda works on his interpretation of the law and you have to Wait for the court case to get a Judge to sort it out, which he may not, he might end up agreeing with the Garda and off you go to jail and wait for your appeal case.

Conor I'm not been sarcastic in saying this but its called a miscarriage of justice, something that also happens regularly.

Gunter Mauser

Quote:
Originally Posted by It wasn't me!
Is it alright if I send someone in with my FAC to buy ammo for me? I'm snowed under with work this week, would like to get a bit of time in wednesday evening, but have absolutely no time off before then to get to a shop and buy ammo. Is it legal for the father to present my cert, with no pretence at being me or anything, and buy it on my behalf? I seem to recall a clause about it being okay for someone to use the firearm of another person under their instruction and authorisation, so would this apply to buying ammo as well? Just want to clarify, make sure everything's above board.

I wouldnt think so IWM as the licence covers you to have the ammo in your possesion -no one else- however dont hold me to that Quote Foxshooter243.


If this debate is confined to what started this thread topic
Your father,family member or friend rather than bringing in other examples
relevant to the act but for exact clarification in this situation of a family
member or friend being stopped or asked to produce a license for Ammunition or a firearm they do not have a cert for.

What is lightly to happen in this event,can you offer a clear position
and can and will you avoid a prosecution. This would be I imagine
a concern for many in the shooting community others may careless and fancy free dealing with a situation as they find it.

IRLConor

Sikamick wrote: »

If I was positive that the Garda was in the wrong I would stand my ground but that wont save me possibly spending the night in a cell.

This happens all of the time where an over ambitious Garda works on his interpretation of the law and you have to Wait for the court case to get a Judge to sort it out, which he may not, he might end up agreeing with the Garda and off you go to jail and wait for your appeal case.

Conor I'm not been sarcastic in saying this but its called a miss carriage of justice, something that also happens regularly.

Indeed, there is that risk to run. That said, you run that risk in pretty much everything else you do so it's not really worth worrying about.

Our man in Havana

Also if you end up at number 3 above it won't be the local district court that will try you but the juryless Special Criminal Court. :eek:

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

If this debate is confined to what started this this thread topic
Your father,family member or friend rather than bringing in other examples
relevant to the act but for exact clarification in this situation of a family
member or friend being stopped or asked to produce a license for Ammunition or a firearm they do not have a cert for.

What is lightly to happen in this event,can you offer a clear position
and can and will you avoid a prosecution. This would be I imagine
a concern for many in the shooting community others may careless and fancy free dealing with a situation as they find it.

I don't think anyone can offer a clear position on this. The law is not 100% clear and there is (to my knowledge) no case law which clarifies it. Until the law is amended or legal precedent is established no one short of a judge prosecuting you can give a clear interpretation of that part of the law.

Sikamick

Gunter Mauser. As when hunting , if in doubt, don’t do it.

IRLConor

Bond-007 wrote: »

Also if you end up at number 3 above it won't be the local district court that will try you but the juryless Special Criminal Court. :eek:

Isn't that just an option that they have and not a foregone conclusion?

Sikamick

Quote=rrpc There are a number of reasons why they would be wrong to do so. A member of a club using a firearm under an authorisation is also entitled to have ammunition in his possession as well as the firearm.

---

According to our club authorization only while on the range, a member that does not have a license cannot leave the range with a firearm or ammunition.

Club membership does not entitle you to take home a firearm or ammunition if you are not licensed or have an authorization.

Thats why you are issued removal orders

Gunter Mauser

Would you be prepared to test this case. eg in front of a club member who is also a Garda asking a friend to take home your Firearm & ammo
and will the Garda have to arrest you both?

IRLConor

Gunter Mauser wrote: »

Would you be prepared to test this case. eg in front of a club member who is also a Garda asking a friend to take home your Firearm & ammo
and will the Garda have to arrest you both?

Ask the Garda.

Sikamick

Read again zabara

According to our club authorization only while on the range, a member that does not have a license cannot leave the range with a firearm or ammunition.

Club membership does not entitle you to take home a firearm or ammunition if you are not licensed or have an authorization.

IRLConor

Sikamick wrote: »

Read again zabara

According to our club authorization only while on the range, a member that does not have a license cannot leave the range with a firearm or ammunition.

Club membership does not entitle you to take home a firearm or ammunition if you are not licensed or have an authorization.

They can leave the range with a firearm or ammunition if they have a removal order for same.

That's precisely how DURC and UCDRC work.

Our man in Havana

From what I can see all firearms offences are tried in the special criminal court. They may take you to a district court first and have you sent for trial in Dublin.
http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/courts-system/special-criminal-court

The Special Criminal Court has no civil jurisdiction. Criminal cases are transferred from the ordinary criminal courts to the Special Criminal Court if:

1. the offence in question is a "scheduled offence". Cases involving a "scheduled offence" generally involve "subversive crime" and are automatically transferred to the Special Criminal Court.

The current list of scheduled offences includes:

* any offence under the Criminal Damage Act 1991
* an offence under the Conspiracy and Protection of Property Act 1875
* any offence under the Explosive Substances Act 1883
* any offence under the Firearms Act 1925 to 1990 and
* any offence under the Offences against the State Act 1939

1. the offence in question is not a "scheduled offence" but the Director of Public Prosecutions issues a certificate stating that in his/her opinion, the ordinary courts are inadequate to secure the administration of justice and the preservation of public peace and order. Once such a certificate is issued, the case must be transferred from the ordinary court to the Special Criminal Court.

An appeal against conviction or sentence by a Special Criminal Court may be taken to the Court of Criminal Appeal.

In view of the most serious consequences I would not like to be the sacrificial lamb in a test case.