Has the popularity of golf reduced the standards of etiquette on the course?

slumped

Just to reiterate and clarify


Anyone can appreciate the game of golf - but on different levels.

However a true and meaningful understanding can only be achieved by being aware of the history and traditions of the game.

ShriekingSheet

copacetic wrote: »

Interesting thread, I think I disagree strongly with what some people consider etiquette based on some of the above. I don't really have a problem with how people dress or if they are a bit noisy. It may be annoying but it's not that big an issue for me.

That's fine, but I think you'll agree that just because you don't have a problem with noise and dress code, that doesn't mean the game should change accordingly?

clg23

Theory tests on the history and etiquette of golf before you are allowed play?? People will get interested in golf and its history after playing a few rounds and getting into it. You are going to put off thousands of young people if you were to impose anything like this.

The only thing (in my opinion) people should be aware of before playing is rake bunkers, replace divots, shout fore, keep up with the group in front etc.

ShriekingSheet

copacetic wrote: »

My worst experiences at golf clubs have been at the hands of 'proper' golfers at some of the bigger clubs.

Yep.

While I'm on the side of "respect the game and it's quirky tradition and ettiquette" I agree with you here and have said before.

The rules, ettiquette and traditions are given a bad name by ass-holes like you have encountered who enforce them rudely and on a power trip, rather than to help a golfer on their way to learning the game.

These guys are rampant and taint people like mine's point of view. I can oly stress that it's not WHAT THE RULES ARE is the problem, it's HOW they're enforced by these idiots.

I've had my grandad and older friends of the family steer me in the right direction on rules and ettiquette. And I've also been shouted at, had letters sent to the committee and been called up infront of the club officials to be suspended from the club.

So trust me, I've seen both sides.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

I agree with Hobbart that some historic awareness of golf is more or less irrelevent to ettiquette and behaviour of new golfers.

But as for traditions, Hobbart you're being selective in the "traditions" you mention in golf and other sports. You can't argue with the one you mention above but the traddional points of ettiquette which the thread began discussing are a different kettle of fish.

What about dragging your trailing leg into an opponent to warrant a foul in soccer? Should this just be accepted as a modern development in the game- it's not against the rules...

Would you say we shouldn't try and keep this kind of thing out of GAA football and promote the tradition of honest competitive spirit?

Rugby teams applauding their defeated opponents off the pitch - not a rule, but a point of ettiquette worth keeping?

What did you say when Martin Johnson and his team stood on the home team side for the anthems? Sure it's only a silly tradition - he's not breaking any rules of the game?


Golf is no different to other sports in having keep-safe traditional points of ettiquette. Golf is no different to other sports in so far as it also once had stupid traditions that have been and ar being ironed out over the years.

But as mentioned in the first post, there are traditions being eroded that many golfers feel are worth keeping. As are the traditions I mention above in other sports worth keeping.

I could not agree more with what you are saying, in fact you put it more eloquently than I could.

I simply cannot see the correlation between tradition and etiquette.

I simply do not believe that it is incumbent on a club to educate golfers, in any traditions.

I have seen terrible forms of etiquette from the K-Club to Elm Green (it is not my intention to cast aspertions on Elm Green) from both young and old members and non-members.

It is all too easy to blur the lines between snobbery and tradition, while neither has anything to do with etiquette (the point of this thread!!!).

The fact that Royal Dublin appears to have some "history" does not preclude it from having members who have no idea how to play golf in a manner in which it should be played, in fact, I don't see how it's sense of history would have any impact on a golfers game, good or bad.

Golf, by it's nature, is a singular game played in a group. It is up to each and every individual to behave in the manner in which he would like to see other members behaving. If the club allows denis on the course, and the individual is comfortable in those denis, whats the issue? Will it affect my game? No. Is it even bad etiquette? Not in that club.

I have had occasion to ask for clarification on a rule to my golfing partner. Was I practising bad etiquette by not knowing or being unsure of that particular rule? I don't think so. Was my club in some way to blame for it's failure to educate me on this rule? I don't think so.

Etiquette, like the game, is an individualistic trait. It is up to the individual, not the club, not the course, to behave in a manner befitting the game, no matter what year or club you are playing in.

slumped

To me the most important parts of etiquette are (these are things EVERY golf SHOULD have)

- know the basic rules
- respect those playing with you and around you
- rake bunkers
- replace divots
- replace flag
- repair pitch marks
- refrain from shouting


It would be desirable that everyone

- dressed appropriatley
- had an in depth knowledge of the rules
- knew a little about the history of the game

S

copacetic

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

That's fine, but I think you'll agree that just because you don't have a problem with noise and dress code, that doesn't mean the game should change accordingly?

well golfs dress code has changed significantly over the years, and is changing pretty much every year. Acceptable golf clothing is much different now that it was in the past.

I'm not sure that such things are 'part of the game'. I really meant that for me at least these issues are incidental to how you actually act and respect others on the course.

rigal

clg23 wrote: »

Theory tests on the history and etiquette of golf before you are allowed play?? People will get interested in golf and its history after playing a few rounds and getting into it. You are going to put off thousands of young people if you were to impose anything like this.

The only thing (in my opinion) people should be aware of before playing is rake bunkers, replace divots, shout fore, keep up with the group in front etc.

Presume you are referring to my suggestion clg23 re. Theory tests?

I made no reference to the history of golf or theory tests for beginners (GUI Applicants only) in my post. Please re read below:

Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf. I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....

Hobart

rigal wrote: »

Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf.

I think that there has to be some criteria for awarding handicaps. What would you suggest as an alternative?

I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....[/I]

I would be very interested in how this test would be formulated. How would the test encompass the masses of local rules? What about the different dress codes in each club? If I was to pass the "etiquette" test in one club, would I have to re-sit it in another if they had a different code of etiquette?

ShriekingSheet

Hobart wrote: »

I could not agree more with what you are saying, in fact you put it more eloquently than I could.

I simply do not believe that it is incumbent on a club to educate golfers, in any traditions.

I have seen terrible forms of etiquette from the K-Club to Elm Green (it is not my intention to cast aspertions on Elm Green) from both young and old members and non-members.

Terrible forms of etiquette from K-Club to Elm Green = Exactly the point of the topic. Etiquette in golf is deteriorating. It's on the decline and that's clear to all - it doesn't matter where in particular and in fact, as you've pointed out, it's actually declining everywhere.

The points of argument I'd like to hear your thoughts on are...

1. Should we simply accept these "terrible forms of ettiquette" as new developments in the game?

2. If not, how could the slide possibly be turned around? You're active in one possible solution by involving your kid in the club as you said. But with older guys new to the game?

I don't think we can agree on (nor is it worth continuing the argument on) what constitutes terrible form of ettiquette. But setting that discussion aside we can still debate the above.

3. And thirdly, you say the club has no role in educating golfers in any traditions (eg: ettiqutte). But I say the club has a responsibility here which it has shirked recently. What I'm refering to is the fact that clubs are allowing things like dress code slide rather than turn down a green fee from a guy in a 'pool jersey. Golf clubs have become more and more focused on money and as a direct result are allowing breaches of ettiquette. So no, they don't have to teach classes in ettiquette but I think yes, they have played a role in the slide and could equally play a role in restoring the likes of dress code if they could bring themselves to turn down the odd green fee.

rigal

I think this discussion can be condensed somewhat.

IMO The answer to the OP's question is a resounding YES.

It's not about snobbery, it's about respect for others and for the game.

People out there need to realise that while golf is a sport it is also a social activity. In this way it cannot be compared to GAA, Soccer or Rugby. A lot of people just play as a way to relax and spend time with their mates and are not really worried about shooting a decent score. When other golfers disrupt their round or a competitive player's round because of a lack of knowledge on etiquette etc it becomes a problem.

No matter what level of golfer you are, if you have played on just some of the many courses around the country it is apparent that some golfers don't give a toss about others on the course or the rules/etiquette of the game. This is fact.

The question is then what can we do about it? Something I think the GUI should be answering.

slumped

rigal wrote: »

Maybe if the GUI didn't award handicaps so easily we would all be better off. Handing in your 3 cards or whatever only really deals with the practical side of Golf. I think we should all sit some sort of theory test on golf/club rules and etiquette. At least then there'd be no excuses from those with handicaps....

The only thing is that the GUI don't award handicaps - the clubs do and this brings me back to my oringial point.

Are clubs just allowing ANYONE join - is it all about the Euro now??

ShriekingSheet

copacetic wrote: »

well golfs dress code has changed significantly over the years, and is changing pretty much every year. Acceptable golf clothing is much different now that it was in the past.

I'm not sure that such things are 'part of the game'. I really meant that for me at least these issues are incidental to how you actually act and respect others on the course.

Your second point - yes I fully understood your post and your passive stance to dress code as opposed to safety points or slow play- that's cool.

But your first point - think about it - it just ain't true? The cut of trousers or size of colors may change with trends but the basic design of trousers, color and jumper has been so since colour TV.

But it's less a point of what the clothes are, it's more a case of golf attire being different to what you'd wear to a gig or a football match. I use the example of amateur soccer if you've ever seen a match in the Leinster Senior League maybe. If one guy wears Man Utd shorts the whole team just look like rag-ball rovers.

rigal

Hobart wrote: »

I think that there has to be some criteria for awarding handicaps. What would you suggest as an alternative?


I would be very interested in how this test would be formulated. How would the test encompass the masses of local rules? What about the different dress codes in each club? If I was to pass the "etiquette" test in one club, would I have to re-sit it in another if they had a different code of etiquette?

I agree. I think the actual handicap of a player should be calculated on the existing basis. i.e. three marked cards. But I think the handicap should only be awarded to that player when the theory test has been passed.


I would imagine that the test could cover three sections e.g:

- Section 1 - Etiquette - these questions could be set by the GUI

- Section 2 - The rules of Golf - also set by the GUI

- Section 3 - Local rules (to include any specific etiquette/golf rules)- set at the discretion of the player's club and to be agreed with the GUI. This section could be resit at any new clubs that a player may join.

clg23

slumped wrote: »

Are clubs just allowing ANYONE join - is it all about the Euro now??

Clubs are being forced to find the money from somewhere. Clubs are getting rid of joining fees and taking green fees where they can be got as the traditional incomes from the bar in the clubhouses are down in recent years. People are more likely these days to finish their round change the golf shoes at the boot of the car and head off home.

Hobart

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

Terrible forms of etiquette from K-Club to Elm Green = Exactly the point of the topic. Etiquette in golf is deteriorating. It's on the decline and that's clear to all - it doesn't matter where in particular and in fact, as you've pointed out, it's actually declining everywhere.

The points of argument I'd like to hear your thoughts on are...

1. Should we simply accept these "terrible forms of ettiquette" as new developments in the game?

New? I have been playing golf for 20 years. I suppose to be exact I would like you to clarify what you mean by new. Are they recent developments, no. I have seen bad forms of etiquette over the years. No more or no less recently.

2. If not, how could the slide possibly be turned around? You're active in one possible solution by involving your kid in the club as you said. But with older guys new to the game?

Assuming that there is a slide, you address each at (for example) an AGM. Currently we have a poll on our website asking should we allow denims in the club house.

But I don't really believe that there has been a slide. Take my example above, wrt denims. The dress code is very clear in our club, you are asked not to wear denims on the course, oif you do, you are asked to leave. that is and always has been the rule.

I don't think we can agree on (nor is it worth continuing the argument on) what constitutes terrible form of ettiquette. But setting that discussion aside we can still debate the above.

3. And thirdly, you say the club has no role in educating golfers in any traditions (eg: ettiqutte). But I say the club has a responsibility here which it has shirked recently. What I'm refering to is the fact that clubs are allowing things like dress code slide rather than turn down a green fee from a guy in a 'pool jersey. Golf clubs have become more and more focused on money and as a direct result are allowing breaches of ettiquette. So no, they don't have to teach classes in ettiquette but I think yes, they have played a role in the slide and could equally play a role in restoring the likes of dress code if they could bring themselves to turn down the odd green fee.

I have seen no evidence of this. Firstly, and lets be practical about this, the green fees are normally paid in the pro shop. The pro has a responsibilty, as does the starter, to inform the prospective player of the dress code, local rules in place, tee pegs etc.... That is not the clubs role. the clubs role is to agree a set of rules by which the game should be played on the course. It is each and every individuals role, to ensure that these rules are obeyed and observed.

If you honestly believe that a club would allow somebody to play in a manner not befitting the rules of the club, because of the clubs "desperation" to secure green fee's, well then, it kinda negates the whole issue of "poularity" being the cause of a drop in standards. surely this popularity would have the opposite effect? If the popularity of the game is a factor, a club should have no issue with turning down green fees.

As a singular point, what is your issue with dress code? Why, does the way somebody else dress have an effect on you?

copacetic

slumped wrote: »

Are clubs just allowing ANYONE join - is it all about the Euro now??

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but this stinks of the worst kind of snobbery? What do you mean by 'ANYONE'?

copacetic

ShriekingSheet wrote: »

But your first point - think about it - it just ain't true? The cut of trousers or size of colors may change with trends but the basic design of trousers, color and jumper has been so since colour TV.

I disagree, jacket and tie on the course would have been required in the past. Short sleeves would have seen you thrown off. 10 years ago no collar would have seen you thrown off the course. Now mock neck shirts and shorts are allowed in a lot of clubs.

ziggy

This post has been deleted.

rigal

copacetic wrote: »

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but this stinks of the worst kind of snobbery? What do you mean by 'ANYONE'?

I don't think that's snobbery. Clubs just can't open their doors to everyone. There needs to be some form of application/selection process.

faceman

stockdam wrote: »

I wasn't having a swipe at the "working class".......I never mentioned class. It was aimed at those people who seem to have no respect whatsoever at the tradition of the game and etiquette. The last time I saw an example I must admit that it just ruined the game for me. We were behind a 4 ball who were all dressed in football tops (nothing really wrong with that in a way) but they played with utter disrespect. [etc]

to be fair, i dont think that example is a good representation of begineers in any club.

rigal wrote: »

I don't think that's snobbery. Clubs just can't open their doors to everyone. There needs to be some form of application/selection process.

Based on what criteria?

Ive been playing golf on and off since i was a teenager and have played in clubs in a number of countries. (Im still crap tho! )

Myself and my friend were the reason ,when we were 16, why the club we were members of introduced stricter dress codes. They didnt like denim but we were only teens so what did we know!

That aside, the game of golf has a history of being an upper class gentleman's game and many traditions even up to recently, (e.g. men only clubs) are still seen in today's society.

Most sports have a dress code in some form or another. I have no issue with a dress code as long as its enforced. Depsite my rebellous younger days i wouldnt wear denim on a golf course now but for the simple reason its not comfortable playing in denim.

Golf clubs are businesses. This talk of letting "anyone" in is nonsense. Elite-ism has no place in modern day society. An application for someone to join a golf club should be no different to joining a gym. However if someone can explain why it should be different, please do.

Dress codes aside, a basic level of etiquette should be expected on a course relating to noise, letting faster parties through, replaced divets etc etc. However it should be up to the clubs to enforce it and perhaps that is where the issue lies. Rules should be included in the membership pack and steps taken to deal with unruly behaviour included.

The price of membership in my experience, hasnt always determined quality of the course.

slumped

copacetic wrote: »

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but this stinks of the worst kind of snobbery? What do you mean by 'ANYONE'?

no snobbery intended - i simply meant that clubs are desparate for money these days and they will let anyone in - whereas in days gone past you had to meet criteria to get in to clubs.

I can remember joining a club 15 years ago and they had a points system in place. You had to get above a certain number of points to be allowed in.

You got points if you lived close to the club, if you already had a handicap etc.

Mister Sifter

One thing worth remembering in all this is that some clubs were set up with the idea of letting people who were previously intimidated by or priced out of existing clubs, get into the game of golf.

rigal

faceman wrote: »

to be fair, i dont think that example is a good representation of begineers in any club.



Based on what criteria?

Ive been playing golf on and off since i was a teenager and have played in clubs in a number of countries. (Im still crap tho! )

Myself and my friend were the reason ,when we were 16, why the club we were members of introduced stricter dress codes. They didnt like denim but we were only teens so what did we know!

That aside, the game of golf has a history of being an upper class gentleman's game and many traditions even up to recently, (e.g. men only clubs) are still seen in today's society.

Most sports have a dress code in some form or another. I have no issue with a dress code as long as its enforced. Depsite my rebellous younger days i wouldnt wear denim on a golf course now but for the simple reason its not comfortable playing in denim.

Golf clubs are businesses. This talk of letting "anyone" in is nonsense. Elite-ism has no place in modern day society. An application for someone to join a golf club should be no different to joining a gym. However if someone can explain why it should be different, please do.

Dress codes aside, a basic level of etiquette should be expected on a course relating to noise, letting faster parties through, replaced divets etc etc. However it should be up to the clubs to enforce it and perhaps that is where the issue lies. Rules should be included in the membership pack and steps taken to deal with unruly behaviour included.

The price of membership in my experience, hasnt always determined quality of the course.

The criteria can be decided by the individual clubs.

You are generalising by saying all clubs are businesses. True some rely heavily on green fees but in private clubs this money can be and is used to drive down member fees and improve the course.

In an ideal world where all golfers respect each other and take it upon themselves to learn the rules, etiquette etc then by all means everyone should be eligible to join a club. But the problem is, this is not the case.

If I paid a huge entry fee and annual sub to a club I wouldn't want them just letting "anyone" in and I would use my rights as a shareholder/member to ensure that there is some form of selection process. Based on my previous paragraph I don't think that's "elitism" or "nonsense".

Re. your points on dress code & denims - I know what you're saying but wearing something that you find comfy isn't going to wash with everyone. It's not like you'd rock up to a course in your trackies and hoody just because you didn't feel like wearing a pair of trousers and polo shirt.

Hobart

slumped wrote: »

no snobbery intended - i simply meant that clubs are desparate for money these days and they will let anyone in - whereas in days gone past you had to meet criteria to get in to clubs.

I can remember joining a club 15 years ago and they had a points system in place. You had to get above a certain number of points to be allowed in.

You got points if you lived close to the club, if you already had a handicap etc.

Again, you are generalising. My club is most definately not "desparate for money", I do know of a number of clubs in financial trouble, but this would be the exception and most definately not the rule.

My club is open for membership, because, my club has memberships free. You still have to meet a list of certain criteria in my club, in fact I do not know of a club wherby you could just simply turn up with €x,000 and walk into it. AFAIK all clubs have a joing policy and interviews are mandatory in all clubs I know off.

stooge

Firstly, I think everyone agress that more people playing golf can only be a good thing. More people playing means more money in the game for development of future players and courses.

As with all sports though there are negatives. More (and a greater variety) of people playing, mean there is going to be a greater range of behaviour.

Certainly the standards of etiquette have reduced overall. This ranges from dress-code to basic courtesy on the course (repairing pitch marks and raking bunkers). But theres also the other end of the argument where snobbery and tradition get in the way of enjoying the game and this could be called a breach of etiquette.

I recently was abroad and played a few courses in this country (where i was told golf has really taken off in the past 5 or so years) ranging from a 'pay as you play' course to a fairly upmarket members only (and occasional guest ). On each course there were quite obviously a mix of people. Some quite old and some obvious beginners. The behaviour of both sets was impeccable.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that maybe the issue isn't the fact more people are playing, it's possibly more to to with society in general in Ireland.



p.s.

One point I want to pick up on though is wearing denim and sports tops etc. If a person makes and effort and is properly dressed they are more likely to follow the rules of the course and have more respect.

copacetic

slumped wrote: »

no snobbery intended - i simply meant that clubs are desparate for money these days and they will let anyone in - whereas in days gone past you had to meet criteria to get in to clubs.

I can remember joining a club 15 years ago and they had a points system in place. You had to get above a certain number of points to be allowed in.

You got points if you lived close to the club, if you already had a handicap etc.

well certainly handicap and living near club are good criteria.

However we all know a lot of it in the past was being from the right place/company, knowing the right people, being the right sex/religion/colour. All of which I'm sure we'd agree is better off left to the past.

faceman

rigal wrote: »

The criteria can be decided by the individual clubs.

You are generalising by saying all clubs are businesses. True some rely heavily on green fees but in private clubs this money can be and is used to drive down member fees and improve the course.

In an ideal world where all golfers respect each other and take it upon themselves to learn the rules, etiquette etc then by all means everyone should be eligible to join a club. But the problem is, this is not the case.

If I paid a huge entry fee and annual sub to a club I wouldn't want them just letting "anyone" in and I would use my rights as a shareholder/member to ensure that there is some form of selection process. Based on my previous paragraph I don't think that's "elitism" or "nonsense".

Golf clubs arent there to make a loss, they must make a profit to sustain themselves.

what should be the selection process? this is the point im trying to get at. It has been mentioned about promimity to club. What has that got to do with it? Are certain locations a bad location to have members joining from? What about areas that dont have golf clubs? Should it be like a credit union and you can only join your nearest one and no other?

I take the point about handicaps, i can understand how that could be part of the criteria. But you are alienating newbies in that case.

Handicaps aside, i fail to what criteria can and should be used to determine an individual's worthiness to join a golf club. If i was to be pendantic, how many clubs assess an individual's health before joining? Surely that is more important than where they live?

Im not trying to be a smart a$$ with my points, its just something i have always felt tarnishes the image of many clubs in ireland and abroad.

To deal with the etiquette issue, perhaps on joining, an individual can only play a round when buddied up with existing members that are there for x many years so they can become acccustomed to club rules etc.

PhilipMarlowe

Interesting topic.

Generally, with the older type of member-owned clubs, you would have to be proposed and seconded by Full Members of at least 2 years standing.
Your application pledges to make yourself acquainted with the rules and bye-laws of the club and the rules & etiquette of the game of golf and also the people proposing and seconding you are responsible for you in this way.

Nowadays in the more commercial clubs, I presume that this is less of an issue, in that the ability to pay is more important than the ability to play.

To flip the coin however, I had been on a waiting list for forever in a club that was up their own you-know-where.... and am very thankful for the growth of commercial type clubs which make the game more accessible.

rigal

faceman wrote: »

Golf clubs arent there to make a loss, they must make a profit to sustain themselves.

what should be the selection process? this is the point im trying to get at. It has been mentioned about promimity to club. What has that got to do with it? Are certain locations a bad location to have members joining from? What about areas that dont have golf clubs? Should it be like a credit union and you can only join your nearest one and no other?

I take the point about handicaps, i can understand how that could be part of the criteria. But you are alienating newbies in that case.

Handicaps aside, i fail to what criteria can and should be used to determine an individual's worthiness to join a golf club. If i was to be pendantic, how many clubs assess an individual's health before joining? Surely that is more important than where they live?

Im not trying to be a smart a$$ with my points, its just something i have always felt tarnishes the image of many clubs in ireland and abroad.

To deal with the etiquette issue, perhaps on joining, an individual can only play a round when buddied up with existing members that are there for x many years so they can become acccustomed to club rules etc.

A club does not need to make a profit to sustain itself. If it breaks even it survives, if it makes a loss they can raise subs, green fees etc to make up the deficit.

It is up to the members/committee at the particular club to decide the selection process. If applicants don't like it they can go elsewhere.