Miss UCD

EamonnKeane

I think sport should be banned. It pressures young men to believe that they must achieve impossible standards of strength and fitness, and if they do not, they are not """winners""". What is this, Nazi Russia?

Agent Smith

panda100 wrote: »

Theres leaflets around the place explaining our protestation. Basically ,we object to the unions involvment in what is a very sexist and exclusive event.
Here are the rules for the 'competiton':

Each contestant:-

1) shall be of good character and possessed of charm poise personality and have beauty of face and figure

2) shall be a person whose background is not likely to bring into disrepute The Miss World Contest or Title or the Licensee or the Promoter or any person associated with them Posing for nude or semi nude pictures would be considered in this.

3) shall be a person :-

(i) who usually uses the prefix 'Miss' ( or eqivalent ) before her name

(ii) who has never been through any ceremony either valid or invalid and whether civil, religious or tribal which is recognized as a marriage ceremony in any part of the world

(iii) who has never given birth to a child

Each girl that enters must be a minimum of 5foot4inches

What sort of message Is this sending out to the majority of union membership (Ie. young females)?
If your short your ugly?
After you have a child your ugly?
When you get married your no longer desirable?
Only single,tall ,virgins are worthy to represnt UCD on a world stage! Its very offensive and is not a message that the union should be associating with.



A bit of craic is a table quiz or a karoke, having women show their bodies so their bum,thighs,breasts,face can be scrutinized by a whole load of men is not 'a bit of craic'. If you think it is then I urge you to come along tommorow and I will happily give you marks out of ten for your body shape and type. Its a 1 outside the arts block hope to see you there.

As for being 'democratically' voted down......Well, union council Is made up of a majority of young males I felt I would take my message to the real union membership,i.e a majority of young females. The support from students and staff has been overwhelming. If the union are trying to get more women inovled in the union,as they should be,they are going the wrong way about it.



Thats why we decided not to hold the protest at the venue itself. We do not want or wish to intimidate the women themselves who choose to enter this competiton. Our protest is at the outdated concept of Miss World itself. We also want to protest at the unions involvment and to show our disspointment they are supporting this sexist event while doing little to highlight womens issues on campus this year.

As for being for charity,it is not up to a student union to fund a completly underfunded part of the health service. Awarnness/treatment/research for primary Immunodeficiency disorders is completly underresourced in Ireland .If the union really cared about rasing money for underfunded parts of the health service then they should mobilise students to fight back against these cutbacks in our health service instead of running a beauty pageant which will raise an insignisficant amount for a very significant cause.


I urge all those who oppose sexism on campus and the unions involvment in this degrading event to come along tommorow at 1 outside the arts blcok. We have some excellent speakers form the Equality department and all in all It will be a thought-provoking,intresting,and fun event

Thats Hot....

panda100

EamonnKeane wrote: »

I think sport should be banned. It pressures young men to believe that they must achieve impossible standards of strength and fitness, and if they do not, they are not """winners""".

The very vast majority of people play sport to keep fit,be part of a team or to have a sociable outlet to meet people. Comparing sport, which is a healthy outlet for all people socially and physically to a competition that bans mothers,wives,people under 5'4,fat,big nosed, yellow teethed,spotty, or just 'normal' women is ridiculous.
Sport has a positive effect on the majority of people. Does Miss world have a positive effect on the majority of people?
As a women I cant see how Miss world has anything but a negative effect?


Penny lane,its not feasible to write refrences to studies on an A5 information leaflet.I will be happy to direct you to the relevant studies at tommorows protest.

6th

panda100 wrote: »

having women show their bodies so their bum,thighs,breasts,face can be scrutinized by a whole load of men is not 'a bit of craic'.

In fairness the lezzers will be checkin' them out to, and probably a few of the bi-curious chicks too.

abelard

EamonnKeane wrote: »

I think sport should be banned. It pressures young men to believe that they must achieve impossible standards of strength and fitness, and if they do not, they are not """winners""". What is this, Nazi Russia?

I don't like an argument like that. I think it's fallacious, a straw man.

And as much as I hate the absolute folly of an argument that is Godwin's Law, well, that's there too (I hold absolutely no stead in Godwin's "Law" but some people seem to treat it as having actual meaning so it gets a mention).

Meh, as much as it looks like I'm trying to attack here, I think this should be allowed to go ahead as a once-off, though I wouldn't really like to see the Union organise it again in the future. If someone else wants to organise the event, fire away, but I'm a bit uneasy that our money is going towards it. I don't think we have a lot to gain from it and my belief (i.e. I can't really back this up with proof!!) is that it will ultimately make more people feel bad about themselves.

Sure, the event objectifies women, but if the entrants want to be objectified, let them. That's not my problem with it, it's the message the Union is sending out in rewarding "beauty of face and figure".

TelePaul

This is why I hate UCD.

Raphael

RIght, since I've had to step in here to infract and delete, I'm going to give a thread wide warning. Next person to jump in with personal abuse, gets a free holiday in not-here.

tbh

if UCD are admitting women based on their looks, then OMG I hate that.

If, on the other hand, this is a competition that women are under no obligation to enter unless they want to, then getting righteously outraged on their behalf is counter-productive.

fullstop

panda100 wrote: »

The very vast majority of people play sport to keep fit,be part of a team or to have a sociable outlet to meet people. Comparing sport, which is a healthy outlet for all people socially and physically to a competition that bans mothers,wives,people under 5'4,fat,big nosed, yellow teethed,spotty, or just 'normal' women is ridiculous.
Sport has a positive effect on the majority of people. Does Miss world have a positive effect on the majority of people?As a women I cant see how Miss world has anything but a negative effect?


Penny lane,its not feasible to write refrences to studies on an A5 information leaflet.I will be happy to direct you to the relevant studies at tommorows protest.

It does on the majority of men, spank the monkey while watchin the swimsuit section :cool:

PennyLane

panda100 wrote: »

The very vast majority of people play sport to keep fit,SPACEbe part of a team or to have a sociable outlet to meet people. Comparing sport, which is a healthy outlet for all people, socially and physically, to a competition that bans mothers,SPACEwives,SPACEpeople under 5'4",SPACEfat,SPACEbig nosed, yellow teethed,SPACEspotty, or just 'normal' women is ridiculous.
Sport has a positive effect on the majority of people. Does Miss World have a positive effect on the majority of people?
As a woman I can't see how Miss World has anything but a negative effect.

Just like your writing is having a negative effect on everything you're trying to say. I doubt I'm the only one to keep being distracted by your presentation when trying follow what you're saying. I know it seems like I'm nitpicking, and I'm sorry if you feel bullied at all, but I'm just trying to help you be taken seriously.

In response to the content, this isn't Miss World, this is Miss UCD. They're on two totally different scales and I doubt most of the entrants into the Miss UCD pageant are going to be taking it anywhere near as seriously as the women of Miss World. I think they are just doing it for a laugh, and I think most of the people who go to watch are going for the same reason (and yes, probably to stare at scantily clad women).

And I hate to break it to you, but not all women are pretty. Yellow teeth and spotty? Yeah, that's unattractive. Hence the expression "she ain't gonna win no beauty pageants." But just because someone's been turned down from participating in Miss UCD doesn't mean that society at large is rejecting them from doing anything ever again. That's the beauty of feminism: it allows women to be more than their looks.

The fact that you're getting so out of shape about the exclusion of women from this event based on appearance is in a way fairly regressive. So what if someone says a woman isn't attractive if she's short and fat? Maybe she's not attractive, but maybe she's a genius and is going to go on to cure AIDS. And maybe the winner of the contest is going to go on to work at the Student Desk until she gets married for money and has six ugly little babies. Who's going to be remembered by society at large?

But what's more, who are we to judge either of them? Maybe some of these girls really don't have much else going for them. Maybe winning a beauty pageant will be the proudest day of some girl's life? [EDIT: in fact, the winner of Miss UCD gets a modeling contract. There are lots of girls out there whose life goal is to become a model, and I'm sure for many this is exactly the sort of golden opportunity they need to achieve it.] Who are you to say that's wrong? It just seems a little petty to be upset over a beauty pageant when there's so much other **** going on in the world that's far worse.

pretty*monster

PennyLane wrote: »

There are lots of girls out there whose life goal is to become a model, and I'm sure for many this is exactly the sort of golden opportunity they need to achieve it.

Quite. One wonders who they thonk they are wasting valuable educational resources comeing to college for.

stolenwine

If this competition does not take place just think of all the men who have made intelligent posts on this thread!

They won't be able to attend the Miss UCD event and subsequently give their phone number to one of the contestents resulting in a happy union. Therefore Panda100 and feminists everywhere you are responsible for murdering the future readership of the Daily Star. :eek: I hope your happy!

Riamfada

Ok just to clarify i have been making points veiled by a degree of piss taking. Trying to inject a bit of humor into the scenario. However Panda, Eamonkeane has a very good point but not being male and physically desirable in the traditional sense you wouldnt understand the pressures of attempting to atain the male adonis image that women constantly demand (especially when the irish rugby team are training here). It works both ways and Id like you to appreciate that before you comment further on sexism and a patriarchal society here in UCD . I for one have many female friends who ignore all aspects of personality in men and look only for the physical while many men ive met are looking for something more.
You percieve sport as a social outlet while you are stating on behalf of the women who partake in this event that its not sociable or an outlet for a fit body ect. I would argue that it is for these people and they should be allowed answer that and speak for themselves. Simularly you should not speak for the male population of UCD who dont fit into the "sports" culture simply because your perception of such a culture differs from those excluded from it.


G

EamonnKeane

pretty*monster wrote: »

Quite. One wonders who they thonk they are wasting valuable educational resources comeing to college for.

Perhhaps they are to learn the englisch for to speak her the well.

Cannibal Ox

EamonnKeane wrote:

I think sport should be banned. It pressures young men to believe that they must achieve impossible standards of strength and fitness, and if they do not, they are not """winners""". What is this, Nazi Russia?

The difference is you're not putting the ideal male on a pedastal so that the women of UCD can grunt their approval of their abs. Sports is a socially useful activity, it doesn't objectify its participants and more often then not, the best sports men and women are praised for their understanding of what ever sport their playing rather then their physical appearence ('he's got a footballing brain'). Ms. UCD (and a Mr.UCD if it happened) is about objectifying the participants, applying some kind of ideal shape and size on women's bodies (and who comes up with that ideal? women? Me thinks not ) and then judging them based on that measurement. I don't think thats right what ever way you swing it, its not about appreciating women, its about applying what are most often (unrealistic) male measurements of beauty on them and then grunting our collective approval of whoever comes closest to meeting them. Thats not something that should be encouraged, even if it is a bit of a laugh.

Walls

Guys, thank you so much for your comments. However, very few of you are really going to face the kind of difficulties that women experience on a day to day basis. You are not going to see this from a woman's point of view. I'm not giving out about that. This isn't your battle, and you aren't harmed by it, so it stands to reason that this wouldn't really carry much import to you.

But for some of us it really does. I've worked for several years in various industries, and I can assure you that there are highly gender specific attitudes out there, and they are not friendly. They can be patronising, demeaning, occasionally favourable, but mostly not. It is the kind of attitude that allows men to simply ignore women in the boardroom, and to allow men (not all, just some) have the kind of attitude that puts women off joining industry.

Now, University is all about experiences, academic and otherwise. It is about reaching for an ideal, both in terms of external theories, and in terms of internal development. Life is perfect nowhere, but in college there is at least a chance to try. To suggest that a Student Union should use Student dues, to pay for and organise a beauty contest, where the very attitudes women will have to combat in the work place, are played to, and encouraged, is missing the point so much I don't know where to start. We are not about looks. We are going to be spending our lifes fighting for equal pay, treatment, resources, pensions and child care, and be told that we're not pretty enough to be listened to, why can't we be nice.

This contest isn't something to be encouraged. It is right to object to it, it is right to protest it. Well done to the organisers of the protest, and remember that there are a lot who agree with you. Good for you.

Dave!

What make you of the participants in the pageant?

Walls

I would say that they have no idea how much they are reducing themselves by doing this. I would say that they will probably achieve a great deal in life, but it won't be by their beauty, and it won't be by entering this pageant.

Blut

I have to say, I always find it quite amusing that its never generally "good looking" girls who protest against these sorts of events. Thats not an insult directed at any of the posters in this thread, just an observation I've made from seeing a number of protests against beauty contests. One has to wonder if its not a bit of sour grapes?

The sports analogy is spot on for men. A beauty contest can be as much a social event as a sports event, I know loads of girls who made good friends during the UCD fashion shows. Men are also definitely held up against sports icons physically, how many lads get into weight training so that they can match the physiques of their rugby idols that so many girls drool over?

Those two points and also yeah its a bit of craic, anyone I know whos ever participated in a beauty pageant or fashion show has enjoyed it immensely (and most people who've watched them have too, though for probably different reasons!) and in the end its only those two demographics who matter most isnt it?

Bubs101

Walls wrote: »

. However, very few of you are really going to face the kind of difficulties that women experience on a day to day basis. .

Just like you can't face the difficulties that men experience on a daily basis. We want to see a glorified bikini contest but instead we have put up with feminists who are only kicking up a fuss because they know they couldn't win.

PennyLane

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

The difference is you're not putting the ideal male on a pedastal so that the women of UCD can grunt their approval of their abs.

If only...

Cannibal Ox wrote: »

Sports is a socially useful activity, it doesn't objectify its participants and more often then not, the best sports men and women are praised for their understanding of what ever sport their playing rather then their physical appearence ('he's got a footballing brain'). Ms. UCD (and a Mr.UCD if it happened) is about objectifying the participants, applying some kind of ideal shape and size on women's bodies (and who comes up with that ideal? women? Me thinks not ) and then judging them based on that measurement. I don't think thats right what ever way you swing it, its not about appreciating women, its about applying what are most often (unrealistic) male measurements of beauty on them and then grunting our collective approval of whoever comes closest to meeting them. Thats not something that should be encouraged, even if it is a bit of a laugh.

Actually, I find women judge each other's appearances far more harshly than men do women. Not to be, y'know, sexist here, but I find that men aren't as picky as women seem to think they are. They do the same thing we do, which is drool over the really choice members of the opposite sex on TV and in magazines, and then go to a pub and hit on whoever they think is kind of cute. I objectify men all the time, but it doesn't mean I can't recognize their other merits. And I don't think people are seriously praising the mental capacity of most athletes, given the prevalent "dumb jock" stereotype. In the sports world, a good throwing arm goes a lot farther than a knowledge of calculus or Kant.

Walls wrote: »

I've worked for several years in various industries, and I can assure you that there are highly gender specific attitudes out there, and they are not friendly. They can be patronising, demeaning, occasionally favourable, but mostly not. It is the kind of attitude that allows men to simply ignore women in the boardroom, and to allow men (not all, just some) have the kind of attitude that puts women off joining industry.

Now, University is all about experiences, academic and otherwise. It is about reaching for an ideal, both in terms of external theories, and in terms of internal development. Life is perfect nowhere, but in college there is at least a chance to try. To suggest that a Student Union should use Student dues, to pay for and organise a beauty contest, where the very attitudes women will have to combat in the work place, are played to, and encouraged, is missing the point so much I don't know where to start. We are not about looks. We are going to be spending our lifes fighting for equal pay, treatment, resources, pensions and child care, and be told that we're not pretty enough to be listened to, why can't we be nice.

Okay, well I'm a girl, and I don't particularly mind it. As I was saying above, appreciating someone's beauty does not preclude the ability to also appreciate that person's less corporeal assets. And in my experience, most girls enjoy an opportunity to dress up and parade around a little, though granted not in quite the same venue as this. As long as it's all in good fun, though, which I think this is, why get all bent out of shape? It's not like Miss UCD is going to keep you from getting that promotion.

Walls

Blut wrote: »

I have to say, I always find it quite amusing that its never generally "good looking" girls who protest against these sorts of events. Thats not an insult directed at any of the posters in this thread, just an observation I've made from seeing a number of protests against beauty contests. One has to wonder if its not a bit of sour grapes?

It doesn't matter if I am beautiful or not, the words I've just posted have merit. This isn't sour grapes, and it really sounds like you don't get the big picture when you demand me to prove that I am good looking for my comments to have any merit.

Once again, well done to the organisers of the protest.

Walls

PennyLane wrote: »

Okay, well I'm a girl, and I don't particularly mind it. As I was saying above, appreciating someone's beauty does not preclude the ability to also appreciate that person's less corporeal assets. And in my experience, most girls enjoy an opportunity to dress up and parade around a little, though granted not in quite the same venue as this. As long as it's all in good fun, though, which I think this is, why get all bent out of shape? It's not like Miss UCD is going to keep you from getting that promotion.

I think I'm viewing it from a different context than you are. I would have a problem with the Student Union organising this and being in favour of this, because it gives the impression that this is the norm, that beauty pageants are okay. The fact that a protest is taking place allows at least a contradictory view to be seen as well, thereby allowing folks see that there is an arguement to be had here on this point, and that it isn't all black and white.

Peleus

Not trying to put anyone down but... the people who complain about these sort of events are usually the people that don't take part in them. The women that take part have no complaints. So who are you standing up for by complaining about this? The participants? They don't seem to mind it. Yourself? You obvioulsy didnt enter it.

Seems the only people who have a problem with this competition are those that don't fit the criteria to enter it. .......jealous much?

Cannibal Ox

PennyLane wrote:

They do the same thing we do, which is drool over the really choice members of the opposite sex on TV and in magazines, and then go to a pub and hit on whoever they think is kind of cute. I objectify men all the time, but it doesn't mean I can't recognize their other merits.

Yeah I agree, everybody does that, and its not really the drooling that goes on at a Ms. UCD or a Mr. UCD that bothers me, and its not the people that take part or the crowd who take part. I think its the idea of a group collectively deciding on an image of beauty, then applying it and awarding it that bothers me. You're actively encouraging people to subscribe to a particular image of perfection that's created by others by awarding them, and I dunno...I find something uncomfortable with that.

You could say it about a lot of things too, magazines, t.v, movies, even video games, and I think I have the same objection to them. I don't like the idea of a group applying an image on individuals, and then awarding them based on how close they come to it. Its the same with applying a particular lifestyle, if you buy this car, you'll get this woman. This is your reward for conforming (meh...don't like that word...) to our idea.

PennyLane wrote:

And I don't think people are seriously praising the mental capacity of most athletes, given the prevalent "dumb jock" stereotype. In the sports world, a good throwing arm goes a lot farther than a knowledge of calculus or Kant.

I think when you're at a level where the fitness of players is at a simillar level (say...sunday league football, the premier league, international rugby) the players who are idolised tend to be the ones who have a 'head' for the game, not because they have a particularly attractive physique. People like Zidane, O'Driscoll, they see a 'clever' pass, make a 'clever' run, etc, etc. Real Madrid decided not to buy Ronaldinho, why? Because they thought he was ugly. He went on to win the FIFA World Player of the Year twice.

I'm beginning to think being knee deep in feminist theory for the past three days is rubbing off on me somehow :pac:

PennyLane

I seem to be arguing against different people now and have failed to adjust accordingly to the fact that you guys - err, girls - make more sense to me....

Walls, I agree that the SU funding is a bit on the sketch side. Maybe if it were a more specific society or something, rather than the group meant to represent the student body as a whole. I don't object to the protest. I do object to the fliers, but more because I don't think they're very good and I take offense when people rape the English language. (Seriously, has anyone else seen them?) But I like that this debate is going on, because stimulating thought is always positive.

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the basic objection here is that a beauty pageant implies a uniform standard that ignores the glorious diversity that is human beauty (male or female, for that matter). A valid point, I'd say, but also an altogether too pervasive phenomenon to be stopped by opposition to one dinky little college pageant. (This is not to say that its not worth objecting, because I'm very aware that every little step counts, and giving up on the little things only makes it easier to give up on the big things.) Besides which, I'm being an optimist and hoping that the whole thing is just meant to be in fun and no one will be taking it seriously enough for it to make much of a difference either way. And c'mon, it's for a charity! ;-)

Chakar

A UNIVERSITY beauty competition which bans female students who are mothers, wives or under 1.62m (5ft 4in) in height is being opposed by students and staff at University College, Dublin.

A protest against the event is being held on the UCD campus at Belfield today in the form of the "real Miss UCD competition."

The "Miss UCD" competition is a charitable event being organised by the UCD Students' Union and has about 15 entrants. It is part of an overall "Miss University Competition" which has already been held in other third level institutions including the Dublin Institute of Technology. The overall winner of the competition will receive a free entry into the Miss Ireland competition and a year's modelling contract.

"It is not the job of a university to promote an event like this" said Professor of Equality Studies at UCD, Kathleen Lynch adding that she and a number of staff strongly object to the competition.

"I feel it is bringing us back to the 1950s where women are evaluated on basis of appearance."

"We are happy to see the wider student body has moved to condone the event and this is an affirmation of wider student values" a UCD spokesman said.

However, he pointed out that this was a student event and he hoped that was the way it would be handled.

"UCDSU should be promoting a positive view of women and vehemently oppose sexism in all forms" said protest organiser Elisa O'Donovan who is a fifth year medical student and a member of the Socialist Party.

Entertainment Officer with UCD Student's Union, Stephen Quinlivan said he has the backing of the student body. A motion was brought to the UCD Students' Union Council three months ago to condemn the event and it was heavily defeated, so it is a democratic decision, he said.

The limitation criteria are due to the entry into Miss Ireland and the event has already been held in other universities, he added.

The competition will raise money for charity so people should "get a life" he said.

© 2008 The Irish Times

Just putting that out there.

PennyLane

Wow, Stephen Quinlivan, way to, uh, not help yourself at all.

Come to think of it, it is a little inappropriate that a university should be feeding into Miss Ireland.

tbh

do the girls not have the choice on whether they want to enter or not? I'm confused here.

TelePaul

tbh wrote: »

do the girls not have the choice on whether they want to enter or not? I'm confused here.

Haha! Yeah it's silly isn't it? Nobody's being forced to do anything.