Nuala O'Faolain...

kelly1

Hello all,

I just listened to a very sad an moving interview with Nuala on the Marian Finucane program.

She has terminal cancer and she finds the prospect of dying very depressing and bleak. All she has is her memories and knowledge and she believes this will all disappear when she dies. She doesn't believe in an "afterlife" or the Christian God. As she said herself she finds herself insignificant in a massive universe. Pod cast is at:

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2008/pc/pod-v-120408-40m53s-marianfinucane.mp3

I would urge everyone on this forum to pray for her conversion and repentance. She was baptised as a child but lost her faith along the way. She finds the idea of God meaningless so what she needs now more than anything is a sense of hope. I pray to almighty God to grant her hope in Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Noel.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I just listened to a very sad an moving interview with Nuala on the Marian Finucane program.

She has terminal cancer and she finds the prospect of dying very depressing and bleak. All she has is her memories and knowledge and she believes this will all disappear when she dies. She doesn't believe in an "afterlife" or the Christian God. As she said herself she finds herself insignificant in a massive universe. Pod cast is at:

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2008/pc/pod-v-120408-40m53s-marianfinucane.mp3

I would urge everyone on this forum to pray for her conversion and repentance. She was baptised as a child but lost her faith along the way. She finds the idea of God meaningless so what she needs now more than anything is a sense of hope. I pray to almighty God to grant her hope in Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Noel.

She is a lesbian, finding god now might cause her a more anguish than remaining an atheist. Should she forsake her lover in the hope that she would get into heaven?

Nell MccAferty, her partner, was on newstalk yesterday emotionally pleading for the right to euthanasia for terminally ill people so that they might die with dignity and the program was flooded with texts from christians opposing euthanasia for purely religious reasons.

Why should an atheist be forced to suffer and die in agony because of a religious belief held by others?

Pompey Magnus

Akrasia wrote:

She is a lesbian, finding god now might cause her a more anguish than remaining an atheist.

Quite right, I think her current position of finding the concept of death as being bleak and depressing is far, far better than suddenly believing there is a God and then being in absolute fear and terror of the impending eternity of pain, torment and suffering awaiting her.

Why should an atheist be forced to suffer and die in agony because of a religious belief held by others?

I can't get my head around it to be honest. I am in favour of euthanasia but I would not dream of supporting a system which enforces euthanasia on anybody yet there is not a reciprocal respect from the religious community for other peoples point of view. Why do they have the right to interfere in a non believer's life? If they want to die a long a painful death then fair enough but I would like the choice to be given the same treatment that even an old dog would get in the circumstances please.

Simiarly if a child of mine required treatment for severe burns which involves stem cell research I would like to have the choice to make use of this, they can let their child suffer in agony if that is what their good book tells them but I don't want to be forced to abide by their bizaare laws.

JimiTime

Akrasia wrote: »

Why should an atheist be forced to suffer and die in agony because of a religious belief held by others?

Well, i think thats a fairly naive view tbh. I personally don't think euthenasia is illegal because of religion. I think there are other things to think of. Children, bumpin off their parents/grandparents for insurance/inheritance. Or making the ill person feel that they are so much of a burden that they actually ask for it.

I think there is alot to consider. I agree though, if it is in the law due to some lingering religious reason, Its not right. But i don't think it is.

JimiTime

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Simiarly if a child of mine required treatment for severe burns which involves stem cell research I would like to have the choice to make use of this

So would I. However, using my limited forsight, I could see potential issues ethically. Ok, if a state allow abortion, then they can hardly condemn stem cell research. However, what about people harvesting babies for stem cell research when demand increases etc. I would certainly have no problem with the ends, the means however, defo no. Obviously again, though, if you see an unborn child as just a collection of cells, its no biggie. IMO though, we'll see stem cells, abortion and assisted suicide before too long. Then those who are for it, can use it, those who are against it, can refuse it. But mark my words, we'll also see some dodgy stuff happening with their introduction.

kelly1

Akrasia wrote: »

She is a lesbian, finding god now might cause her a more anguish than remaining an atheist. Should she forsake her lover in the hope that she would get into heaven?

Yes I know she had a romance will Nell but I don't think they're an item any more. I'm talking about a bigger issue though. Where is she going to spend eternity after she dies? She doesn't believe in an afterlife. She has no interest in God as she said in the interview. What she seems to be most concerned about is that she will cease to be and that all the knowledge and memories she has will disappear with her. I really do feel for her and her lack of faith has left her in a very dark place. Did you listen to the interview? She's very depressed about the future.

Akrasia wrote: »

Why should an atheist be forced to suffer and die in agony because of a religious belief held by others?

Where is the suffering and agony going to come from?? She's suffering terrible anguish as it is. How would turning to God make things worse for her? She needs hope! Right now she has none, she's despairing totally.

She needs to know that God is merciful and always ready to forgive regardless of how much we've sinned. She doesn't realize this and it's such a tragedy!! God help her!!!

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Yes I know she had a romance will Nell but I don't think they're an item any more. I'm talking about a bigger issue though. Where is she going to spend eternity after she dies? She doesn't believe in an afterlife. She has no interest in God as she said in the interview. What she seems to be most concerned about is that she will cease to be and that all the knowledge and memories she has will disappear with her. I really do feel for her and her lack of faith has left her in a very dark place. Did you listen to the interview? She's very depressed about the future.

Where is the suffering and agony going to come from?? She's suffering terrible anguish as it is. How would turning to God make things worse for her? She needs hope! Right now she has none, she's despairing totally.

1. She doesn't believe in god which she said.
2. She has TERMINAL CANCER OF COURSE SHE IS DEPRESSED
3. God can't help her thats quite obvious might have something to with his distinct lack of existence.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

How would turning to God make things worse for her?

By removing her self-respect? She could, after all, be somebody who views religion as something which replaces the certainty of death with a false hope of life.

And regardless of whether or not she believes what christians believe will stop her from dying, all of her memories and thoughts certainly will be lost to humanity. And for a thoughtful person, that is a pain which religion doesn't really do much to relieve.

Pompey Magnus

JimiTime wrote: »

So would I. However, using my limited forsight, I could see potential issues ethically. Ok, if a state allow abortion, then they can hardly condemn stem cell research. However, what about people harvesting babies for stem cell research when demand increases etc. I would certainly have no problem with the ends, the means however, defo no. Obviously again, though, if you see an unborn child as just a collection of cells, its no biggie. IMO though, we'll see stem cells, abortion and assisted suicide before too long. Then those who are for it, can use it, those who are against it, can refuse it. But mark my words, we'll also see some dodgy stuff happening with their introduction.

There may be dodgy practices which will result from the legalisation of stem cell research, I can't say for sure that there won't be, I still don't think this is reason enough to halt scientific progress. After all I presume you would not be in favour of making organ transplant illegal, after all we know for a fact that there are people exploiting poor people in the third world to extract their organs. The good however far outweighs the bad and I feel that stem cells would be the same.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

1. She doesn't believe in god which she said.

OK and your point is?

CerebralCortex wrote: »

2. She has TERMINAL CANCER OF COURSE SHE IS DEPRESSED

The point is that the greater a person's faith, the less concerned they should be about death. For the person who loves God, death is the beginning of a better life and a reward for faithful service to God.

CerebralCortex wrote: »

3. God can't help her thats quite obvious might have something to with his distinct lack of existence.

I'm not talking about a cure! It's time for her to reconcile herself with God. How acts towards God between now the time she dies will determine her eternal fate. Kinda important really...

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

By removing her self-respect? She could, after all, be somebody who views religion as something which replaces the certainty of death with a false hope of life.

So someone who turns to God has to give up self-respect? What a load of rubbish!

robindch wrote: »

And regardless of whether or not she believes what christians believe will stop her from dying, all of her memories and thoughts certainly will be lost to humanity. And for a thoughtful person, that is a pain which religion doesn't really do much to relieve.

Whose loss are you concerned about? I'm concerned with the salvation of her soul! Memories etc don't really a whole lot in the grand schema of things.

kelly1

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

Quite right, I think her current position of finding the concept of death as being bleak and depressing is far, far better than suddenly believing there is a God and then being in absolute fear and terror of the impending eternity of pain, torment and suffering awaiting her.

There really is nothing to fear. All she has to do is turn to God and trust in His mercy and her sins will be forgiven. All she needs to be saved is a genuine contrite confession.

Akrasia

kelly1 wrote: »

The point is that the greater a person's faith, the less concerned they should be about death. For the person who loves God, death is the beginning of a better life and a reward for faithful service to God.

Um, for an atheist, death is literally nothing to us. There is far less to be concerned about than whether or not you've been a good enough christian to avoid hell. (according to some christians, only very very few people will actually get in and there is no clear concensus on what the criteria for salvation actually are. You're faith is just as much in yourself (your own interpretation of god) as it is in god himself.)

I'm not talking about a cure! It's time for her to reconcile herself with God. How acts towards God between now the time she dies will determine her eternal fate. Kinda important really...

I think she probably has better things to do with the last moments of her life than praying to an imaginary friend and hoping for an afterlife that doesn't exist.

JCB

robindch wrote: »

By removing her self-respect? She could, after all, be somebody who views religion as something which replaces the certainty of death with a false hope of life.

Interesting, so anyone who changes their mind on their religious belief (or anything for that matter) loses their self-respect? Are you seriously posing that question?

robindch wrote:

And regardless of whether or not she believes what christians believe will stop her from dying, all of her memories and thoughts certainly will be lost to humanity. And for a thoughtful person, that is a pain which religion doesn't really do much to relieve.

If you are an atheist of course. I don't think anyone was suggesting she should fake a belief in God. Belief in God does relieve those pains.

Besides whether you believe or not, it doesn't change the status of God anyway.

JimiTime

Depeche_Mode wrote: »

. After all I presume you would not be in favour of making organ transplant illegal, after all we know for a fact that there are people exploiting poor people in the third world to extract their organs. The good however far outweighs the bad and I feel that stem cells would be the same.

Hmmm. I'm afraid, from a principled point of view, that doesn't cut it for me. Thankfully i've never had to look into the 'organs trade', but if what you say is factual, then i would certainly say that could be held up as a reason why stem cells from children who were killed in the womb, and euthenasia should be seriously re-considered. Then i would seriously lok into tightening the net on the organs trade, not sure about stopping it, I'm too ignorant of its workings at this moment in time.

i'm assuming you don't follow the death penalty reasoning of 'if it saves even 1 innocent person, the the abolition of the death penalty is a good thing'?

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

OK and your point is?

The point is that the greater a person's faith, the less concerned they should be about death. For the person who loves God, death is the beginning of a better life and a reward for faithful service to God.

I'm not talking about a cure! It's time for her to reconcile herself with God. How acts towards God between now the time she dies will determine her eternal fate. Kinda important really...

No its not god doesn't exist.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

There really is nothing to fear. All she has to do is turn to God and trust in His mercy and her sins will be forgiven. All she needs to be saved is a genuine contrite confession.

Showing how infinitely petty your god is. He couldn't just accept her for the person he made her to be no? Would that hurt "his" pride? Oh wait a second he doesn't exist.

JCB

CerebralCortex wrote: »

No its not god doesn't exist.

I see you're on a roll here, so I hate to interrupt but.....

You think God doesn't exist because any evidence present thus far has not exceeded your belief threshold. Some disagree.

Unless you've been to the end of the world and back to confirm otherwise, it is legitimate to profess a belief in God without being ridiculed.

robindch

kelly1 wrote: »

So someone who turns to God has to give up self-respect? What a load of rubbish!

That's not what I said. All I pointed out is that she could be somebody for whom changing a life-long belief causes her to lose self-respect. For example, imagine how all the world's christians would feel if it was Mohammad who descended from heaven in a golden chariot and hauled up outside the White House?

That's not "a load of rubbish", but just simply an attempt to show how she might view things differently from you.

kelly1 wrote: »

Whose loss are you concerned about? I'm concerned with the salvation of her soul! Memories etc don't really a whole lot in the grand schema of things.

When you believe that there is no such thing as a soul, and that the ideas of "salvation" and staying alive after you die are pious lies, then feelings and memories are all that's left. In this case, I think it's really quite reasonable that she's depressed that these are being lost.

Can you see where I'm coming from?

JCB

robindch wrote: »

That's not what I said. All I pointed out is that she could be somebody for whom changing a life-long belief causes her to lose self-respect. For example, imagine how all the world's christians would feel if it was Mohammad who descended from heaven in a golden chariot and hauled up outside the White House?

People make forward looking decisions, otherwise people confine themselves to the mistakes of the past.
Example: Someone takes a wrong turn and falls into a pit of quicksand.
Another person offers them a lending hand out of the quicksand.
Should that person not accept the lending hand because they may lose their self respect?
People make decisions and often the wrong ones--, but unless you think that people aren't capable of making what they think is the right decision for themselves given the circumstance in front of them,-- no-one should be limited by their past choices or lose their self respect.


On a separate note, I do acknowledge that for an atheist, the run up to death can be a depressing and scary experience and I am not trying to take from that.

robindch

JCB wrote: »

Interesting, so anyone who changes their mind on their religious belief (or anything for that matter) loses their self-respect? Are you seriously posing that question?

"somebody" is not "everybody" -- see the response above!

JCB wrote: »

If you are an atheist of course. I don't think anyone was suggesting she should fake a belief in God. Belief in God does relieve those pains.

It certainly does. And likewise, if I believe I'm going to I will win the lottery tomorrow, it's superficially reasonable to spend all my cash today, isn't it? Or is it?

JCB wrote: »

Besides whether you believe or not, it doesn't change the status of God anyway.

Again, agreed; and your comment works the other way too -- the existence or otherwise of competing deities like Allah, Ram, Jehovah, Thor and so on, are unrelated to whether or not you believe they exist. Have you seriously considered the possibility that you might be bowing down to the wrong deity, and thereby irritating the right one?

JCB

robindch wrote: »

"somebody" is not "everybody" -- see the response above!

Do you consider poor Nuala's situation unique? Is this not an experience you may have to face too?

robindch wrote:

It certainly does. And likewise, if I believe I'm going to I will win the lottery tomorrow, it's superficially reasonable to spend all my cash today, isn't it? Or is it?

Interesting, equating religious belief to financial wrecklessness.:pac: You seem to think that religious belief equates to losing something.

robindch wrote:

Again, agreed; and your comment works the other way too -- the existence or otherwise of competing deities like Allah, Ram, Jehovah, Thor and so on, are unrelated to whether or not you believe they exist. Have you seriously considered the possibility that you might be bowing down to the wrong deity, and thereby irritating the right one?

:rolleyes: Which again makes no difference to whether God exists or not

robindch

JCB wrote: »

Example: Someone takes a wrong turn and falls into a pit of quicksand. Another person offers them a lending hand out of the quicksand. Should that person not accept the lending hand because they may lose their self respect?

In that simple example, yes, of course that's what most people would do. But where personal politics are concerned, you know as well as I do that people won't back down even if it's in their best interests to do so.

Can you really imagine JC or the pope becoming muslims if Mohammad turned up as above, or Brian Cowan suggesting that Bertie was a fraud?

JCB wrote: »

the run up to death can be a depressing and scary experience and I am not trying to take from that.

Strange. In my own limited experience, it seems that christians are more worried about death than us atheists. Perhaps it's just that there are more christians about and they flap more.

DublinWriter

kelly1 wrote: »

I just listened to a very sad an moving interview with Nuala on the Marian Finucane program.

I heard it too and had very mixed emotions about it.

My Mum died last year of a brain tumour at 62 and always had a strong faith in the Catholic Church. I believe it was this faith that made her never cry once and laugh about things and remain positive right to the very end.

While I myself renounced my Catholic/Christian roots many years ago, at this stage in my grieving I'm only beginning to look at the experience objectively and I am suddenly noticing how her faith carried her through.

This may sound very harsh, and I do realise that Nuala O'Faolain is most probably in a lot of distress right now, but I found her attitude very self-indulgent, whingy and mawkish.

I'm not saying she should stay quiet about her illness, but many suffer a lot more than she has and don't have the platform she has to complain about it. We may have a third-world A&E service, but Palliative care in this country is second-to-none.

Again, I felt quite guilty thinking the above thoughts when I heard her interview, but I still felt a need to express them.

robindch

JCB wrote: »

Do you consider poor Nuala's situation unique? Is this not an experience you may have to face too?

In all probability, I'm going to die at some point and I've little doubt that I'm going to be cheesed off about it, unless I'm suffering from some terrible disease in which case it's likely to be a relief.

However, on my death bed, I would hope that my brain would continue working to the extent that I could continue to see that the fundamental belief at the core of christianity -- that I won't be tossed into a lake of burning sulfer if I believe that the deistic counterpart of a first-century Palestinian carpenter created the universe and then killed himself in a grisly blood-bargain he struck with himself -- is fundamentally preposterous.

JCB wrote: »

Interesting, equating religious belief to financial wrecklessness.

No, I was equating action based upon unsubstantiated belief in one area with action based upon unsubstantiated belief in another area!

JCB wrote: »

You seem to think that religious belief equates to losing something.

In the sense that I've quoted in previous posts, yes, one can lose one's self-respect -- intellectual and otherwise -- which I'd imagine is really quite important in one's dying days.

JCB

robindch wrote: »

In that simple example, yes, of course that's what most people would do. But where personal politics are concerned, you know as well as I do that people won't back down even if it's in their best interests to do so.

It's so sad, so many deaths/quarrels could be otherwise saved.:(

robindch wrote:

In my own limited experience, it seems that christians are more worried about death than us atheists. Perhaps it's just that there are more christians about and they flap more.

Interesting point. Personally I think that it's more to do with old age tbh. I wouldn't imagine many of the atheists in Ireland are over the age of 60, when realities of death begin to kick in.

Actually back on topic, I remember Nuala saying that the thing that mattered most (or words to that effect) was 'passion'. She unashamedly withdrew that and said that 'Health' and I think 'reflection' was much more important.

I'd imagine that as we get older our priorities change.

JCB

To answer your points worth responding to...

No, I was equating action based upon unsubstantiated belief in one area with action based upon unsubstantiated belief in another area!

It's funny actually, to go back to your lottery example, the snag is that you presuppose that someone automatically spends all their money with the promise of the ticket the next day. How can you assume this? The only loss incurred is the price of the ticket.

In the sense that I've quoted in previous posts, yes, one can lose one's self-respect -- intellectual and otherwise -- which I'd imagine is really quite important in one's dying days.

You've done it again, losing self-respect = religious belief, why do you keep saying this? It implies people are unable to make reasonable decisions. Then again if you think that people would automatically spend all their money based on a lottery ticket, then I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

seamusob

Listening to Nuala O F was difficult for me. I had a very close shave with a terminal illness recently and I am not out of the woods by a long shot. I had mixed feelings about the interview. She in a very dark and painful place and I hope that she can find laughter again before she is gone.

Death is something that people these days think about less and less. It may have something to do with the change in family sizes i.e. they are smaller now and as children we don't see close family members dying, or it could have something to do with materialism, I don't know, but whatever it is we are less able to cope with death. A stunning set of photographs was published recently dealing with how close life and death are. Have a look here.

I do not believe in God, and neither do I feel that the universe revolves around me, I am unimportant in the grand scale of things. If it turns out that when I die I end up in the clouds with angels twanging away on harps I'll laugh my arse off at the absurdity of it - that would be fine. If there is nothing then there is nothing, as terrifying as that is it also acts as a universal kick up the hole to me to try to change this world for the better as there is no other.

JCB

seamusob wrote: »

Listening to Nuala O F was difficult for me. I had a very close shave with a terminal illness recently and I am not out of the woods by a long shot.

So sorry to hear this and I hope that you will get better soon

I do not believe in God, and neither do I feel that the universe revolves around me, I am unimportant in the grand scale of things. If it turns out that when I die I end up in the clouds with angels twanging away on harps I'll laugh my arse off at the absurdity of it - that would be fine.

Angels twanging away on harps

Disney has such an effect on our lives

robindch

JCB wrote: »

I wouldn't imagine many of the atheists in Ireland are over the age of 60, when realities of death begin to kick in.

It's interesting that you seem to believe what's referred to as the "rational-choice" argument for religion which isn't believed to be very accurate description. I'd agree that there are far more atheists in the younger generations, but that's because atheism is now socially acceptable (mostly), whereas in previous generations, it was verboten to be irreligious.

JCB wrote: »

Actually back on topic, I remember Nuala saying that the thing that mattered most (or words to that effect) was 'passion'. She unashamedly withdrew that and said that 'Health' and I think 'reflection' was much more important.

I didn't listen to the interview myself, but I disagree with her about downgrading passion -- personally, the world would be an infinitely dull place if it were full of people who valued endless health-obsessed reflection, rather than passion

JCB wrote: »

I'd imagine that as we get older our priorities change.

Yes, they do, and as death approaches, one's interest in preserving one's life's work seems to become important to many people, hence Nuala's concern.

JCB wrote: »

To answer your points worth responding to...

Miaow

JCB wrote: »

It's funny actually, to go back to your lottery example, the snag is that you presuppose that someone automatically spends all their money with the promise of the ticket the next day. How can you assume this? The only loss incurred is the price of the ticket.

I was referring to the case of somebody spending all their cash (metaphor for spending all their life) with the expectation that they would win something tomorrow (not dying). Putting all one's cash onto a single bet is a bad idea, as any gambler will tell you.

JCB wrote: »

You've done it again, losing self-respect = religious belief, why do you keep saying this? It implies people are unable to make reasonable decisions. Then again if you think that people would automatically spend all their money based on a lottery ticket, then I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

Pfff, don't you read anything I write?

Last time now -- in my earlier post(s), I am saying that FOR NUALA ALONE, it MIGHT HAPPEN that SHE IS somebody who views religion as something which replaces the certainty of death with a false hope of life. And IN HER CASE, that might cause her to lose her self-respect. I am not saying that this applies to everybody, or even very many people; I am saying that it MAY apply to NUALA ALONE.

Capeesh?

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

Hello all,

I just listened to a very sad an moving interview with Nuala on the Marian Finucane program.

She has terminal cancer and she finds the prospect of dying very depressing and bleak. All she has is her memories and knowledge and she believes this will all disappear when she dies. She doesn't believe in an "afterlife" or the Christian God. As she said herself she finds herself insignificant in a massive universe. Pod cast is at:

http://www.rte.ie/podcasts/2008/pc/pod-v-120408-40m53s-marianfinucane.mp3

I would urge everyone on this forum to pray for her conversion and repentance. She was baptised as a child but lost her faith along the way. She finds the idea of God meaningless so what she needs now more than anything is a sense of hope. I pray to almighty God to grant her hope in Jesus Christ.

God bless,
Noel.

In situations like this Noel it would be very difficult, nay impossible, to do anything worthwhile, especially because she finds the idea of God a meaningless one. Did she request prayers in her interview? (Don’t want to listen to it to be honest) You can't save people who do not want to be saved. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I find it vainglorious to pray for people who don't want you to pray for them. Let her ask Jesus to help her if she wants to. He’s only a word away for those who would but ask Him. If she doesn't want to do that then that is her choice. If she is right about God then she has nothing to worry about has she? Dead is just dead. Either she and people like her are the ones that should be pitied, or we are, for being concerned about their eternal salvation.

kelly1

robindch wrote: »

That's not what I said. All I pointed out is that she could be somebody for whom changing a life-long belief causes her to lose self-respect. For example, imagine how all the world's christians would feel if it was Mohammad who descended from heaven in a golden chariot and hauled up outside the White House?

To her credit, I don't think she's too worried about self-respect because she said for instance that she's not worried about her hair falling out. I know you don't believe this but her relationship with God for the rest of her life will determine her eternal fate - one blissful, the other constant agony.

If I discovered that Mohammed was a true prophet, I would be shocked to my core. I would have to give up belief in God. This isn't going to happen though (IMO).

robindch wrote: »

That's not "a load of rubbish", but just simply an attempt to show how she might view things differently from you.When you believe that there is no such thing as a soul, and that the ideas of "salvation" and staying alive after you die are pious lies, then feelings and memories are all that's left. In this case, I think it's really quite reasonable that she's depressed that these are being lost.

Yes, I appreciate this.

kelly1

DublinWriter wrote: »

I heard it too and had very mixed emotions about it.

My Mum died last year of a brain tumour at 62 and always had a strong faith in the Catholic Church. I believe it was this faith that made her never cry once and laugh about things and remain positive right to the very end.

While I myself renounced my Catholic/Christian roots many years ago, at this stage in my grieving I'm only beginning to look at the experience objectively and I am suddenly noticing how her faith carried her through.

You have my sympathies; my mother died of cancer in Lourdes and she remained very positive to the end also.

DublinWriter wrote: »

This may sound very harsh, and I do realise that Nuala O'Faolain is most probably in a lot of distress right now, but I found her attitude very self-indulgent, whingy and mawkish.

I can understand her situation. She thinks she (her id/ego/I) is about to disappear and be lost forever and I'm sure she's wondering what's the point of life.

tbh

kelly1 wrote: »

To her credit, I don't think she's too worried about self-respect because she said for instance that she's not worried about her hair falling out. I know you don't believe this but her relationship with God for the rest of her life will determine her eternal fate - one blissful, the other constant agony.

I think her relationship with God is between herself and God, and not really any of your business. I think actually that your insistence that she approach God through your "path" is quite patronising, and one of the main reasons people like me find people like you quite hard to deal with. God is not hard to find, God is impossible to avoid. Instead of praying that she comes to the same conclusions as you do about God, I personally believe God would be better served if you simply prayed that she has a peaceful passing.

with respect.

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

In situations like this Noel it would be very difficult, nay impossible, to do anything worthwhile, especially because she finds the idea of God a meaningless one. Did she request prayers in her interview? (Don’t want to listen to it to be honest) You can't save people who do not want to be saved. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I find it vainglorious to pray for people who don't want you to pray for them. Let her ask Jesus to help her if she wants to. He’s only a word away for those who would but ask Him. If she doesn't want to do that then that is her choice. If she is right about God then she has nothing to worry about has she? Dead is just dead. Either she and people like her are the ones that should be pitied, or we are, for being concerned about their eternal salvation.

The point is that she doesn't realize that she's facing judgment. No she didn't request prayers and I'm sure she doesn't want to go to Hell, she just doesn't believe it exists.

The charitable thing to do is to pray for her conversion.

kelly1

tbh wrote: »

I think her relationship with God is between herself and God, and not really any of your business. I think actually that your insistence that she approach God through your "path" is quite patronising, and one of the main reasons people like me find people like you quite hard to deal with. God is not hard to find, God is impossible to avoid. Instead of praying that she comes to the same conclusions as you do about God, I personally believe God would be better served if you simply prayed that she has a peaceful passing.

with respect.

Clearly you're not Christian and according to my faith we face judgment after death. We are saved by grace and this grace is lost through sin. Only God's forgiveness and the action of the Holy Spirit can restore this grace. In order to be saved, one needs to die in a state of grace.

As a matter of interest, how do you find God?

tbh

"according to my faith" - see this is the problem. There are two words in there, MY and FAITH. MY, meaning it's personal to you, and FAITH meaning that it's something you believe in without having any proof. And that's cool, I don't have a problem with you believing in what you believe in. I don't believe that you need human intervention - in the guise of organised religion - to communicate with your creator, but I'm kind of funny like that. But if you were dying, I certainly wouldn't be praying that your eyes would be opened, I'd be praying that you find peace. How you find that peace doesn't really bother me. I don't really understand why you should feel that the only way to God is through the methods you've been taught. Don't you think God is more intelligent than man?

As for how I find God, I don't really. God finds me, all I have to do is listen.

I'm also interested in your definition of Christian. Do you think that if Nuala led a good, loving life but didn't go to mass on Sunday, God would turn his/her back on her? Cause, I have to say, that's not what my idea of Christ is.

Asiaprod

kelly1, you really should have posted this in the " Thread For Posting Prayer Requests," if you want it moved let me know, the debate, on the finer points, can continue to rage on here.

Soul Winner

kelly1 wrote: »

The point is that she doesn't realize that she's facing judgment. No she didn't request prayers and I'm sure she doesn't want to go to Hell, she just doesn't believe it exists.

The charitable thing to do is to pray for her conversion.

I would pray for her if she requested it but she's not bothered so why should I be? Or you be for that matter? SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE CONVERTED!!! (Sorry for shouting)

To be a Christian is to freely give oneself over to God to be used by Him for His purposes. That is the true meaning of the word 'saint' and 'holy' the word in the Greek that translates both is 'Hagios'. You cannot force that on anyone. It is a free choice made by the individual, all be it prompted by God’s spirit. God will not enter in uninvited. And how can Nuala invite Him in when she doesn't believe in Him? She's an intelligent woman; if she had been given no basis for faith in God throughout her life then God knows that. He will judge her according to her own knowledge. Christ still paid the price for her sins, and God is all merciful. It is none of our business how God deals with her. We won't be there when He’s doing it. Paul said: "..work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." Philippians 2:12. None of us are there yet. To get caught up in worrying about whether somebody else is saved or not just takes the focus off whether we ourselves are in the faith. Paul also says to: "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith;" 2 Corinthians 13:5 This message applies to Nuala as well but she doesn't accept it. You can't make her become a Christian if she doesn't want to. Jesus says that: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him:" John 6:44

She is in God’s hands and He will deal rightly with her regardless. Just worry about your own salvation because to focus on somebody else's is to assume you are ok, and when you assume you are ok then you are not working out your own salvation with fear and trembling (literally 'Phobias and traumas' in the Greek).

JCB

robindch wrote: »

It's interesting that you seem to believe what's referred to as the "rational-choice" argument for religion which isn't believed to be very accurate description.

Notice I used the word reasonable not rational to avoid the very point you're making.

I didn't listen to the interview myself, but I disagree with her about downgrading passion -- personally, the world would be an infinitely dull place if it were full of people who valued endless health-obsessed reflection, rather than passion

I think it might have been most important for her than overall(i.e. world), I'd have to listen again to confirm.
But, remember she would have said exactly the same thing at your age.

Miaow

No prizes for guessing what I was referring to.

I was referring to the case of somebody spending all their cash (metaphor for spending all their life) with the expectation that they would win something tomorrow (not dying). Putting all one's cash onto a single bet is a bad idea, as any gambler will tell you.

But the point is that your metaphor doesn't capture what you're trying to describe. To through away all your cash now = irrevocably throwing away you're future resources on a promise.
You must remember that a religious person can always change they're mind and *take back* the cash that you suppose they've thrown away, as you put it.
By linking the two examples you mix up past and future decisions, in what I view to be a snide attempt to make religious people out to be morons. Am I wrong? Are you're motivations more admirable?

Last time now -- in my earlier post(s), I am saying that FOR NUALA ALONE, it MIGHT HAPPEN that SHE IS somebody who views religion as something which replaces the certainty of death with a false hope of life. And IN HER CASE, that might cause her to lose her self-respect. I am not saying that this applies to everybody, or even very many people; I am saying that it MAY apply to NUALA ALONE.

Thank you for clarifying - the repeated use of the word MAY was lacking.

But I can't help but feel, all you're doing is glorifying pride, making it out to be some sort of virtue.

No one should be ashamed if they think they are wrong to do/think something and change their mind. How else can we learn?

If Nuala wants to believe in God, then her pride should not stop her doing so.

If Nuala doesn't want to believe in God then grand!

Splendour

Akrasia wrote: »

Um, for an atheist, death is literally nothing to us. .

So why then, do you think, Nuala is so depressed about her impending situation?

Splendour

Soul Winner wrote: »

In situations like this Noel it would be very difficult, nay impossible, to do anything worthwhile, especially because she finds the idea of God a meaningless one. Did she request prayers in her interview? (Don’t want to listen to it to be honest) You can't save people who do not want to be saved. Sorry if this sounds harsh but I find it vainglorious to pray for people who don't want you to pray for them. Let her ask Jesus to help her if she wants to. He’s only a word away for those who would but ask Him. If she doesn't want to do that then that is her choice. If she is right about God then she has nothing to worry about has she? Dead is just dead. Either she and people like her are the ones that should be pitied, or we are, for being concerned about their eternal salvation.

Don't recall reading anything about Paul wanting to convert,(quite the opposite in fact), but God had other plans for him...

kelly1

Soul Winner wrote: »

I would pray for her if she requested it but she's not bothered so why should I be? Or you be for that matter? SHE DOESN'T WANT TO BE CONVERTED!!! (Sorry for shouting)

Don't you see the point I'm making!? She doesn't believe in Hell and she could be headed there if she doesn't repent! She doesn't realize the danger her soul is in and she probably doesn't believe she has a soul. What could possibly be wrong with praying for her?? If she converts by the grace of God, you can be certain that she will be forever grateful and will pray for those who prayed for her. It's a win win situation.

kelly1

Splendour wrote: »

So why then, do you think, Nuala is so depressed about her impending situation?

Personally I think most atheists are cavalier about death now but when it comes to the time, I reckons dread fear will set in!

stakey

kelly1, this really is a pathetic little crusade you are on here. First and foremost Nuala is a human being, whatever other label that is applied in life comes second. As a human being the least you could do is observe and respect her opinions. When you are taking the journey she is on perhaps you too can take to the airwaves and discuss how you feel fine exiting this world knowing that your sky god is waiting to give you some sort of everlasting life.

She's on the last journey of her life, she chose to share her opinions of the most personal journey anyone can take. She didn't go on the radio requesting anyone to 'pray' for her soul. It's shocking that the most you got out of this woman's disclosure is a need to spread your religion.

She's not being judged, she's got cancer, a scary disease that kills millions worldwide every year along with thousands of other diseases, war, famine and preventable causes of death. Perhaps instead of praying for Nuala's soul look at praying to your god to get off of his procrastinating ass and heal some of societies ills.

JimiTime

first of all, can i say that people referring to noels request as a 'pathetic little crusade', or the like are being way ott IMO. I think Noel believes that this lady is headed for hell, and wishes that she converted to save herself. if he genuinely believes this, then far from being pathetic, he's being concerned for her afterlife. Fair enough if you don't agree with his belief, but if he does believe it, you could hardly call it pathetic to wish that she didn't end up being burnt forever!

On that point Noel, i'll contend with you though. You seem certain that she is going to hell. may I ask how you know?

kelly1

JimiTime wrote: »

On that point Noel, i'll contend with you though. You seem certain that she is going to hell. may I ask how you know?

I'm not certain at all but if she dies in a state of mortal sin, she faces damnation. The question is how is she going to receive forgiveness if she doesn't ask God? Without forgiveness, she cannot be saved. I'm very concerned that she will die unrepentant which is why I'm asking people to pray for her conversion. I imagine most Christians would agree with this position??

kelly1

stakey wrote: »

kelly1, this really is a pathetic little crusade you are on here. First and foremost Nuala is a human being, whatever other label that is applied in life comes second. As a human being the least you could do is observe and respect her opinions. When you are taking the journey she is on perhaps you too can take to the airwaves and discuss how you feel fine exiting this world knowing that your sky god is waiting to give you some sort of everlasting life.

She's on the last journey of her life, she chose to share her opinions of the most personal journey anyone can take. She didn't go on the radio requesting anyone to 'pray' for her soul. It's shocking that the most you got out of this woman's disclosure is a need to spread your religion.

She's not being judged, she's got cancer, a scary disease that kills millions worldwide every year along with thousands of other diseases, war, famine and preventable causes of death. Perhaps instead of praying for Nuala's soul look at praying to your god to get off of his procrastinating ass and heal some of societies ills.

Stakey, I was motivated to start this thread through compassion for her situation and how she feels facing death. Did you listen to the interview? She's lost nearly all of the former joy she got from life and finds it hard to deal with her belief that she will cease to exist when she dies. I really feel for her. I wish I could talk to her and try to give her hope.

You obviously don't believe in an afterlife but I do. She is facing the death of her physical body but her soul will continue to exist either in agony or ecstasy and I pray that God will be merciful to her. I pray that Jesus will touch her heart and draw her to Himself.

tbh

kelly1 wrote: »

I'm not certain at all but if she dies in a state of mortal sin, she faces damnation. The question is how is she going to receive forgiveness if she doesn't ask God? Without forgiveness, she cannot be saved. I'm very concerned that she will die unrepentant which is why I'm asking people to pray for her conversion. I imagine most Christians would agree with this position??

hmm, some of us wish her all the best and hopes she finds peace. Others are insisting that unless she follows the same rules they themselves believe in, she'll burn in hell for all eternity. Which opinion would Jesus agree with I wonder?

kelly1

tbh wrote: »

hmm, some of us wish her all the best and hopes she finds peace.

what good is a peaceful death if she ends up in a very unpeaceful place when she dies!?

tbh

kelly1 wrote: »

what good is a peaceful death if she ends up in a very unpeaceful place when she dies!?

she won't.