Best League in the world? Yeah, for now...

Seaneh

Editorial from channel4.com/sport/football_italia

There has understandably been some gloating from the English media this week, but Steve Wilson wonders if some are taking things too far


There has understandably been some gloating from the English media this week, but Steve Wilson wonders if some are taking things too far
The English Press are just loving it. The apparent death of Italian football, an 8-0 aggregate win for the Premier League over Serie A in the European Cup, the nailed on Balon d'Or winner scoring goals for fun on England's green and pleasant turf. It is understandable that there is some crowing, and we have to take it on the chin with dignity. However, having read some ridiculous comments at the weekend I believe that some sections of the media have crossed the line of sense and nonsense.

My particular beef is with one tabloid columnist's claim that the gulf between England and Italy can be measured by the fact that “this summer, when England's top sides compete to break the bank for the best prospects in world football, Milan chase the signature of Andriy Shevchenko and hail it as a coup.” Some digs do have to be accepted. For example, we gloated long and hard when Kaka was the world's best, so we can't complain about the current adoration of Cristiano Ronaldo. But there comes a point when you have to respond to the blind lunacy of certain suggestions.

Any true observer of global football will know that, beyond Silvio Berlusconi and Adriano Galliani, very few in Milan are planning to hail Sheva's return as a coup. Anyone who has taken note of recent transfers will remember that last summer's “best prospect” - Alexandre Pato - chose the historic and noble Rossoneri over nouveaux riche cash machine Chelsea. And is mocking a player of the Ukrainian's quality for failing to be a hit in England not slightly naïve? Clearly the 2004 Balon d'Or winner just isn't suited to the English game.

Shevchenko's return to Italy and England's expected smash and grab of Euro 2008's hottest talent is then compared to “Oxfam taking an old suit off your hands, while the top fashion houses unveil their autumn collection.” A £30m suit, don't forget. In that hypothetical situation, who is the winner? Oxfam, for being given an incredibly valuable item for free, or the suit's owner, who was foolish enough to part with £30m in the first place and is now giving away their possession for nothing? It is fairly clear that Milan got the better deal when they sold him and will also get the better deal if they re-sign him.

Let's take the riposte further. Beyond the big four in England, can you really name a side capable of making a mark in Europe? Tottenham Hotspur, Everton and Bolton Wanderers certainly couldn't impact on the UEFA Cup this term and Fiorentina's defeat of the Goodison Park side coupled with Palermo's dismissal of West Ham United last season suggest strength in depth is favouring the peninsula.

Football goes in cycles. England ruled in the late 1970s and early '80s, Italy led the way in the late '80s and early '90s, while Spain was top dog at the turn of the millennium. It is wise to remember that fact when making snide comments from the top of the pile. When you reach the pinnacle there is only one way to go - down. And in truth, the slide has already started. While the Premier League may be ruling Europe thanks to foreign money, foreign players and foreign Coaches, the English national team is an embarrassment.

Once the Champions League excitement has blown over, the smug, self-satisfied tabloid columnists might want to think forward to Euro 2008 - where the analogy of boutique to charity shop between Italy and England is a little more in our favour.

eZe^

Torres has interestingly said La Liga is better than the EPL. Stating that the quality of teams outside of the big boys is much higher, with any team beating another on any given day.

Pepe LeFrits

Everyone knows the English team is a joke. I don't see anyone claiming it is the best in the world.

Steve Wilson obviously has a bee in his bonnet.

MrJoeSoap

Who really cares though? Watch what you want and don't worry about other leagues.

eZe^

Or watch them all, get a nice taste of different styles. Plus its nice to broaden your horizons.

weemcd

Very good article imo, gives voice to an opinion I've long felt towards the perception of the Italian League. Sure through match fixing scandals, ultra violence and a poor media perception etc. the league has taken a massive hit.

Lets not forget that when all this was going on the Italians went under everyones nose and won a world cup, while an Italian club went on to win the champions league & world club cup.

Much as been made of the EPL's spending power, however taking a quick look at record transfer fee's around the globe, Spain and Italy rule the roost, and have done for a decade.

A rundown of the European cup/champions league finalists over the past 20+ years yields a lot more Italian/Spanish clubs than English teams. Every league has it's day, as many others have said it goes in cycles, this year its looking incredibly likely that an English club will clinch it, but who's to say it wont be Spain next year, Italy the year after that... Germany in 5 years time? Who knows what way it's going to go?

therecklessone

Seaneh wrote: »

Let's take the riposte further. Beyond the big four in England, can you really name a side capable of making a mark in Europe? Tottenham Hotspur, Everton and Bolton Wanderers certainly couldn't impact on the UEFA Cup this term and Fiorentina's defeat of the Goodison Park side coupled with Palermo's dismissal of West Ham United last season suggest strength in depth is favouring the peninsula.

Oh dear, what a lazy conclusion.

Palermo went on to lose to Newcastle in the group stages of the Uefa Cup, what does that suggest?

Only one of Italy's four sides survived the 1st round proper of this year's Cup.

Fiorentina have had a good Uefa Cup run, that's all that I'd draw from the last two seasons...:rolleyes:

3 English sides have reached the Uefa Cup final since the last Italian side to do so.

mike65

Italian league footie is in the sewer but its polite not to to say that.

Mike.

therecklessone

weemcd wrote: »

A rundown of the European cup/champions league finalists over the past 20+ years yields a lot more Italian/Spanish clubs than English teams.

That's a very broad range you've chosen, and it is heavily influenced by England's absence from European competition post-Heysel.

mike65

I've said it here before but I'll say it again - EPL clubs will be the dominant teams in the CL starting from 2005 and for period lasting at least 8 years and probably more.

2005 winners
2006 finalists
2007 finalists
2008 winners (well Barca wont!)

etc

Guy:Incognito

therecklessone wrote: »

That's a very broad range you've chosen, and it is heavily influenced by England's absence from European competition post-Heysel.

Exactly, if your going back 20 years, why not go 30? At a guess it's because it will sway the results away from Italy/Spain a bit, what with the 6 European cups in a row and all.

eZe^

If you go back to the very start of the European cup, its pretty close between all the national leagues. So lets all just enjoy the sport we love!

astrofool

eZe^ wrote: »

If you go back to the very start of the European cup, its pretty close between all the national leagues. So lets all just enjoy the sport we love!

You mean when Real won it quite a lot under fair and sporting circumstances not influenced by the political situation on the iberian peninsula

scruff321

la liga is the best league overall in standard imo

eZe^

astrofool wrote: »

You mean when Real won it quite a lot under fair and sporting circumstances not influenced by the political situation on the iberian peninsula

Hahahaha, exactly. When they didnt steal Di Stefano and Puskas, 2 players that lead the team to 5 consecutive European championships.

dobsdave

Who is Steve Wilson?
And why didn't he read his article before pressing the submit button.
Its badly written and thought out and somewhat childlike.

Jazzy

therecklessone wrote: »

Oh dear, what a lazy conclusion.

Palermo went on to lose to Newcastle in the group stages of the Uefa Cup, what does that suggest?

Only one of Italy's four sides survived the 1st round proper of this year's Cup.

Fiorentina have had a good Uefa Cup run, that's all that I'd draw from the last two seasons...:rolleyes:

3 English sides have reached the Uefa Cup final since the last Italian side to do so.

jaysus, kinda blows all of your mans points out of the water.


now that the PL is on top ur going to have the usual array of naysayers bashing it just because they dont like the fact that its #1

iregk

My question is this. Why do people feel the need to promote the league their team plays in as opposed to just following their team. As in it looks like United will win the league, do united fans feel they wont get enough cudos is say La Liga or Serie A is viewed as a better league?

Personally I watch a lot of football. Italian has long since been my preference, as in if there was a game of each on the box i'd watch Serie A. No real reason other than I just like the football better. The thing is though, I don't care if Serie A is not viewed as the best in the world, nor do I care if it is viewed as the best. I watch it because I like it and I follow my team.

Sky constant "best league in the world" does annoy me but only because they try to promote it at least every 15mins during a game. They said it this season during WestHam and Bolton!!! Come on... So why on earth do people on this board from Ireland where none of these leagues have a home feel the need to argue over weather the prem is better than la liga or serie a and mores the point, get rather heated over it?

I agree with a previous poster. I watch Serie A, la liga, prem and bundesliga. Watch all of them, it broadens your outlook. I'd rather have a mind opened by wonder than one closed by belief.

ditpoker

ehmm... the english championship is the most exciting league obviously... 3 games to go and 5 times can win the title, 2 of 5 can go up and pretty much anyone below w.b.a can get relegated from what i can tell.

Prufrock

England has the best top 4 at the moment I'd say. The rest of the English teams would struggle in the cl due to the size of their squad and (in some cases) lack of quality. They do well in the UFEA cup. I can see Spurs winning it with their current team.

Spain are rebuilding a bit. Real and Barca have some great young talent that needs to get some experience. Barca need a new manager. But they'll come good soon I'd say.

Serie A has had a tough time of it as of late. Scandals and fan violence have hurt the league. It's going to take a long time to recover from that. Also their "top" teams are in bits. Milan are an aging team (for a long time now) Juvi are just back in the top flight and Inter don't seem to be good enough in the cl (based on the ease at which Liverpool beat em).

ATM EPL rules the roost.....for now.

mike65

The rest of the English teams would struggle in the cl due to the size of their squad and (in some cases) lack of quality.

:pac:

Ditto every other league!

Mike.

eZe^

Jazzy wrote: »

jaysus, kinda blows all of your mans points out of the water.


now that the PL is on top ur going to have the usual array of naysayers bashing it just because they dont like the fact that its #1

Again, Im not trying to argue in favour of any particular league, but you can again look at the stats. Last year there was an all Spanish Uefa cup final, and the year before that it was also won by a Spanish team. Same again, Spanish team 2 years before that. Then this year, La Liga teams have played ****, with Villareal and Atletico Madrid going out too early for my liking. Getafe have been wonderous, but the other 2 teams have hardly delivered on past years expectations.

The fact is, people are going to skew their arguments for whatever league they support, leaving out important tid bits and whatnot about other leagues or whatever.


To argue for the PL dominance over the past few of years is nonsense in my opinion, in the past 10 years there has been both an all Italian and all Spanish final, this year should be the year of the first all English final. They only started dominating last season, but footballs a funny old sport, and as we can all see, the gap between the best teams in the highest rank leagues, and those of other leagues (Eredivisie and Superliga) are becoming alot smaller imo.


This means that on their day, PSV, Ajax, Benfica, Zagreb, Fenerbahce and Porto could all give the so called 'best' teams in Europe a run for their money over 2 legs. Thats the beauty of football in my opinion, and its great to see teams with less money financially being able to slug it out with the big guns.

gucci

As said above, each league has its own styles, strengths and weaknesses. And each posssess really poor teams as well as ones capable of challenging on the european top level.

Its also kinda mad that Chelsea paid £30 million for Shevchenko, after Milan probably paid what, £20 million for him 5 or 6 years earlier? So basically they bought him and got his best years out of him, then sold him for £10m profit and probably will end up getting him back for free or a token fee! Great business!! :D

therecklessone

Dug up some stuff a mate posted on another forum recently, make of it what you will...

Including this as yet unfinished season, the five year record for the top three nations in the CL (number of sides who've qualified for each stage):

Group Stages:

Spain 19 (7 sides topped their group)
England 19 (13 sides topped their group)
Italy 19 (11 sides topped their group)

First Knockout Stage:

Spain 15
England 18
Italy 14

Quarter Finals:

Spain 6
England 12
Italy 10

Semi Finals:

Spain 4
England 10
Italy 3

Finals:

Spain 1 (+1 possible)
England 4 (+5 possible)
Italy 2

Winners:

Spain 1 (+1 possible)
England 1 (+1 possible)
Italy 1

Note: Liverpool included for year they qualified as CL winners at Everton's expense, as current rules (and Spanish precedent ) would ensure that happened

therecklessone

Also, in same time frame and ignoring draws between teams:

Spanish sides have won 14 ties vs Italian opposition.
Italians have won 9 ties vs Spanish opposition.

Spanish sides have won 8 ties vs English opposition
English sides have won 13 ties vs Spanish opposition.

English sides have won 14 ties vs Italian opposition.
Italian sides have won 6 ties vs English opposition.

English sides have met (or will meet) an incredible 5 times in the knockout stages, and twice in the groups (Chelsea vs Liverpool)

Guy:Incognito

therecklessone wrote: »

Note: Liverpool included for year they qualified as CL winners at Everton's expense, as current rules (and Spanish precedent ) would ensure that happened

We didnt qualify at their expense btw, they were there too, they just werent good enough to win their qualifier.:)

Chardee MacDennis

Stekelly wrote: »

We didnt qualify at their expense btw, they were there too, they just werent good enough to win their qualifier.:)

i have a feeling your missing the point there but i could be wrong

therecklessone

Stekelly wrote: »

We didnt qualify at their expense btw, they were there too, they just werent good enough to win their qualifier.:)

Sorry, for clarification:

Some might take Liverpool's presence in those figures for that year as skewing the figures (i.e. English sides got an "extra" chance to qualify due to the situation that unfolded after Liverpool won the CL but weren't good enough :p:p to qualify through their league despite only needing to finish 4th)

If the current rules applied then, Liverpool would have qualified at Everton's expense, and so for the purpose of compiling the figures they were included and Everton discounted.

Mr. Presentable

Somewhere along the line everybody got derailed. Is the article not about the crowing in the Press that the English League is the best in the world and the schaudenfreud associated with their xenophobia?

To quote:

>My particular beef is with one tabloid columnist's claim that the gulf >between England and Italy can be measured by the fact that “this summer, >when England's top sides compete to break the bank for the best prospects >in world football, Milan chase the signature of Andriy Shevchenko and hail it >as a coup.”

Personally, if Milan can get 20m for Andrei and buy him back for less, I'd consider that a coup.

Mr. Presentable

Jazzy wrote: »

now that the PL is on top ur going to have the usual array of naysayers bashing it just because they dont like the fact that its #1

Out of curiosity, what are your criteria for saying it's # 1?

Seaneh

The Editorial wasn't about bashing english football it was about the absoluty idiocy and eliteism in the enlish tabloid and television media and the preception that this forces on your avrage english (and irish/scotish/welsh) football fan.

HE does say that outside the top 4 there aren't many good teams in england, and he's bloody right.

IMHO Fulham/Sunderland/Bolton/Brum/Newkie/REadingWigan (I won't even mention the rams) ould ALL be easily relegated from the premira Leiga or Seria A.

Your avrage "stock" player in Spain and italy would be a lot more techincally profeciant that your "stock" english player, who is, lets be honest, a grafter.