Waterford Whinge (for and against)

mysterious

mfitzy wrote: »

Last time I checked the Shannon estuary was on the west coast and Waterford was in the east side of the country- check out a map there.

And don't get me started on your canal link to.....enniskillen. Canal transport in Ireland ended about 200 years just in case you didn't realise yet lol:D:

Oh really.... God the weather is not great atm, hope things speed up on the carlow bypass.

Waterford is on the south east..... oh I think this is so boring having to correct childishness-in-NESS.

ipodrocker

whats with the waterford bashing, isnt this forum supposed to be talking about m9 and the carlow bypass!

merlante

mysterious wrote: »

LOL Mods get the rolling pin. smack smack.

What are you on about you lunatic?

mysterious wrote: »

Limerick is more strategically located than Waterford since its on Ireland's largest and busiest waterway. The shannon Estuary is perfect for a super Euro port, As this is on the cards. On the western seaboard for Transatlantic traffic between America and Europe. The largest crossroad between the regions. Etc etc.. You could say other positiives about Galway, and Other's about Cork. I could go but I'd rather not.

Waterford.. GET OVER IT:p

There is nothing strategic about the locations of Limerick or Galway, and until another country appears off the west coast of Ireland, there never will be.

For as long as there is shipping Waterford will always be strategic. It is a natural gateway for the country in every sense.

merlante

mysterious wrote: »

Waterford in population and economically is a fraction of what Cork or Limerick powerhouse is . Waterford did not grow to be as prosperous as a result.
Stop this OT on how magnificent Waterford is..

Rosslare port has nothing to do with this topic. it ain't no Europort either. It never will be.

Limerick is between 1.5 and 1.8 times the size of Waterford depending on whether or not you include Tramore (since the city's population growth has been spread between the two for the past 10 years). Cork is a lot bigger than both.

In this day and age, with the central government in effective control of the distribution of all major infrastructure, FDI, etc., it is the Irish government and not the industry of a city the size of Limerick or Waterford that makes a centre a 'powerhouse'. Waterford Crystal at its peak made Waterford a powerhouse of sorts in the 80's when the country had big problems, but these days, large employers are not indigenous and the success of cities and regions are a national responsibility, and not as much a local or regional one.

This all came out of a topic which had turned into a "Waterford shouldn't get a motorway or be in the NSS because it's small and non-strategic (or whatever)". Well, it's neither small (smaller but not small) in relative terms compared to Limerick and certainly Galway, and it is strategic. 'Magnificent' is subjective.

This off-topic, I know, but so are the posts I am replying to!

MarkPH

mysterious wrote: »

Regional populations is the new topic... ffs lol...

All the interurbans are transporting people from one catchment population to the next.

There is so much against your argument.
Point one.

"Your defending the N9 getting priority over the N6 because the like's of a larger town is neaby Waterford?Ok then"

New Ross as an example you mentioned? it's not in the N9 catchment. The N11 will be the most obvious catchment here for New ross. etc. Your argument does not fit your preference of Waterford favoured over other cities in terms of regional populations. It's about what the roads catchment area of population.

This is a ridiculous point by someone who obviously doesnt know the area. Not only would it serve New Ross, but it would serve the surrounding areas in Wexford, notably south west Wexford.

Most people in Ross would already use the N9 by travelling towards Borris and meeting the N9 at Bagnelstown. But, as part of the road development, there is a new bypass linking the M7 towards the N25, and therefore missing Ferrybank, so most people from New Ross would go this way to be on the motorway.

Know the roads and areas before making sweeping statements to cover your argument.

mysterious

merlante wrote: »

Limerick is between 1.5 and 1.8 times the size of Waterford depending on whether or not you include Tramore (since the city's population growth has been spread between the two for the past 10 years). Cork is a lot bigger than both.

Off topic. Don't start adding near by towns ffs..... we been through this. tramore is not and never will be part of Waterford's urban area.

merlante wrote:

This all came out of a topic which had turned into a "Waterford shouldn't get a motorway or be in the NSS because it's small and non-strategic (or whatever)". Well, it's neither small (smaller but not small) in relative terms compared to Limerick and certainly Galway, and it is strategic. 'Magnificent' is subjective.

Wher do read your crap. No i didnt say Waterford should not get a motorway.

I said that some of the funds could be put into the likes of the N20 for the time being. In present Waterford still have the option of using the upgraded N11.

merlante wrote:

This off-topic, I know, but so are the posts I am replying to!

In fairness you brought up the most of the off topicness, especially of late. ffs

mysterious

merlante wrote: »

What are you on about you lunatic?

enough with abuse, sort it please.

merlante wrote:

There is nothing strategic about the locations of Limerick or Galway, and until another country appears off the west coast of Ireland, there never will be.

For as long as there is shipping Waterford will always be strategic. It is a natural gateway for the country in every sense.

Yeah whatever...:rolleyes: Waterford port is no hong kong port... God this is so redicoulous.


You need to clearly explain your notions of strategic.... Limerick is strategic. Cork and Galway are strategic too for other such reason as so is Waterford likewise. Belfast is in the far north east but it's still strategic, so your argument is falluable.

Waterford hasn't really benifeted as much as the other's cities, in terms of aspects relating to strategic locations to grow and develop. If Limerick was not a good strategic location it would not have grown to a city it is today.


you've brought this off topic again. No point pointing fingers at everyone else.

So Anyhoo... Has the entire M9 started. Has the contract been signed for the castletown Stretch. Seen a bit of excavation going on on some parts. Not sure if its the actual building of the route.

mysterious

MarkPH wrote: »

there is a new bypass linking the M7 towards the N25, and therefore missing Ferrybank

Sweepin error here.

MarkPH wrote:

Know the roads and areas before making sweeping statements to cover your argument.

Ok. new Ross will still have two direct motorways to Dublin. dance around the bush with my lack of intelligence if you like.

Anyhoo this is boring.

Victor

Split from Carlow M9 thread.

Bards

mysterious wrote: »

Has the entire M9 started. Has the contract been signed for the castletown Stretch. .

Never heard of a Castletown on the M9??????? - and yes the entire M9 is now officially under construction

fricatus

mysterious wrote: »

Off topic. Don't start adding near by towns ffs..... we been through this. tramore is not and never will be part of Waterford's urban area.

True it's not part of the city, but it might as well be. It has no appreciable industry of its own (bar tourism). How many towns of 10,000 inhabitants don't have their own IDA industrial estate or hospital? I'm sure you're going to say plenty, like Carrigaline, Balbriggan, etc., but that just underlines my point - it's a dormitory town for the nearby city.

Half of the town's population is made up of city people who moved out there to take advantage of cheaper housing and proximity to the coast - e.g. my cousin and his next-door neighbour to start with. It's only a five-mile spin in as far as the city's outer ring road, and only seven miles centre-to-centre (no more than Tallaght to Dublin, or Carrigaline to Cork).

From the point of view of infrastructural planning I think it's safe to treat the two as a unit.

mysterious

fricatus wrote: »

True it's not part of the city, but it might as well be. It has no appreciable industry of its own (bar tourism). How many towns of 10,000 inhabitants don't have their own IDA industrial estate or hospital? I'm sure you're going to say plenty, like Carrigaline, Balbriggan, etc., but that just underlines my point - it's a dormitory town for the nearby city.

Half of the town's population is made up of city people who moved out there to take advantage of cheaper housing and proximity to the coast - e.g. my cousin and his next-door neighbour to start with. It's only a five-mile spin in as far as the city's outer ring road, and only seven miles centre-to-centre (no more than Tallaght to Dublin, or Carrigaline to Cork).

From the point of view of infrastructural planning I think it's safe to treat the two as a unit.

And really what are you trying to prove? That Waterford is a bigger city because it hold hands with Tramore or just some pairing resulting in bigger funds for infastructure.. What are you on about here in terms of topic on hand.

Oh this is boring

mysterious

fricatus wrote: »

(no more than Tallaght to Dublin, or Carrigaline to Cork).

quote]


Em very very wrong comparison
Tallaght is actually swallowed up the the Dublin Agglomeration. the 7 miles is built up area from pin point Tallaght to Dublin city centre. With population astronomical compared to the 7 miles or so of green pasture between Tramoro and Waterford.

LOL.. Anyway what other nonsense am I going to hear next.

invincibleirish

I've learned the error of my ways, Waterford is a sweeping metropolis, it has dormitory towns!

If Tramore is really like Carrigaline then im going to guess its a soulless dump of housing estates, clogged up traffic and idiots thinking they are living the suburban dream.

Lets not forget that the lucky Waterford folk will have a choice of 2 toll free Motorways when they decide to go to Dublin.

Meanwhile i'll be saving my change for the Fermoy & Portlaoise tolls.

So lets get this straight, on the road to Dublin from different parts of the island this is what you will get:

Limerick will have 1 toll

Cork will have 2 tolls

Belfast Will have 1 toll (Dundalk?)

Galway will have 1 toll

Waterford will have no tolls

Guess the south east is so poor they cant pay any tolls on either of their fabulous roads to Dublin


Only in Ireland.:rolleyes:


*edit* i doubt most of the M9 would have been viable as a PPP anyway. this thread rocks!

fricatus

invincibleirish wrote: »

I've learned the error of my ways, Waterford is a sweeping metropolis, it has dormitory towns!

Oh for heaven's sake, will you stop with the attitude?

invincibleirish wrote: »

Lets not forget that the lucky Waterford folk will have a choice of 2 toll free Motorways when they decide to go to Dublin.

Eh... not quite. To get to the N11 dual carriageway from Waterford you have to drive along 60 km of single carriageway roads, and crawl through New Ross and Enniscorthy. Preferable to the N9 though...

invincibleirish wrote: »

So lets get this straight, on the road to Dublin from different parts of the island this is what you will get:

Limerick will have 1 toll

Cork will have 2 tolls

Belfast Will have 1 toll (Dundalk?)

Galway will have 1 toll

Waterford will have no tolls

Guess the south east is so poor they cant pay any tolls on either of their fabulous roads to Dublin


Only in Ireland.:rolleyes:

I agree. It's pure stupidity... but while you're having your little dig at the south-east (again) don't forget that the Waterford city bypass will be tolled, whereas the Jack Lynch tunnel in Cork is not.

But you're right, it's nuts.

tonc76

Invincibleirish - you have made the point that the N20 Cork - Limerick should have taken priority over the M9 Dublin - Waterford and have "bashed" the whole South East region in doing so.

Should the N20 Cork - Limerick have taken priority over the M18 Crusheen - Gort and M18 Gort - Oranmore contracts that are now both at tender stage or do they not show on your radar at all?

merlante

mysterious wrote: »

And really what are you trying to prove? That Waterford is a bigger city because it hold hands with Tramore or just some pairing resulting in bigger funds for infastructure.. What are you on about here in terms of topic on hand.

Oh this is boring

Waterford more than any other city has become bipolar in its development. The population of Tramore has risen from practically nothing a century ago to 20% of the size of the city. If there was a town of 35,000 8 miles outside of Cork or a town of 14,000 8 miles outside of Galway, I would apply the same to them. Whether or not the two urban areas (Waterford and Tramore) are physically connected is irrelevant in almost every respect.

You're taking an awful lot of interest in this supposedly 'boring' discussion.

As for the lack of a toll on M9, we'll have a toll on the M25. How many tolls do you want us to have?

mysterious

merlante wrote: »

Waterford more than any other city has become bipolar in its development. The population of Tramore has risen from practically nothing a century ago to 20% of the size of the city. If there was a town of 35,000 8 miles outside of Cork or a town of 14,000 8 miles outside of Galway, I would apply the same to them. Whether or not the two urban areas (Waterford and Tramore) are physically connected is irrelevant in almost every respect.

You're taking an awful lot of interest in this supposedly 'boring' discussion.

As for the lack of a toll on M9, we'll have a toll on the M25. How many tolls do you want us to have?

absaloute nonsense incoherent crap.. Ifs, buts, so and so.

Why cant you accept that,
Waterford is by far the smallest city in Ireland.
Even its population density is far lower than Limerick and Cork.
It's population growth is the least of the 5 main cities.

At one time Limerick was bigger than Cork, Cork prospered during the 18th century with burgeoning of its city port. It grew and outpaced Limerick in terms of todays population. This makes no point other than Cork is bigger than Limerick. I accept it surely. So this talk is utter farce. This or that town/city was smaller because such and such bipolar reason is the greatest load of nonsense ive ever heard on boards..



This thread is getting funny:D

Anything else?

mysterious

invincibleirish wrote: »

I've learned the error of my ways, Waterford is a sweeping metropolis, it has dormitory towns!

If Tramore is really like Carrigaline then im going to guess its a soulless dump of housing estates, clogged up traffic and idiots thinking they are living the suburban dream.

Lets not forget that the lucky Waterford folk will have a choice of 2 toll free Motorways when they decide to go to Dublin.

Meanwhile i'll be saving my change for the Fermoy & Portlaoise tolls.

So lets get this straight, on the road to Dublin from different parts of the island this is what you will get:

Limerick will have 1 toll

Cork will have 2 tolls

Belfast Will have 1 toll (Dundalk?)

Galway will have 1 toll

Waterford will have no tolls

Guess the south east is so poor they cant pay any tolls on either of their fabulous roads to Dublin


Only in Ireland.:rolleyes:


*edit* i doubt most of the M9 would have been viable as a PPP anyway. this thread rocks!

The majority of the midwest will still be stung by two tolls including the shannon crossing and Portlaoise.

invincibleirish

fricatus wrote: »

I agree. It's pure stupidity... but while you're having your little dig at the south-east (again) don't forget that the Waterford city bypass will be tolled, whereas the Jack Lynch tunnel in Cork is not.

But you're right, it's nuts.

Oh dont worry the Government wanted to Toll the JLT as well,(i believe it was on Martin Cullens watch as transport minister) only the intervention of the EU (who partially paid for it) meant it remains Toll free.

The N22 northern city bypass is allegedly to be tolled.(not sure yet)

invincibleirish

tonc76 wrote: »

Invincibleirish - you have made the point that the N20 Cork - Limerick should have taken priority over the M9 Dublin - Waterford and have "bashed" the whole South East region in doing so.

Should the N20 Cork - Limerick have taken priority over the M18 Crusheen - Gort and M18 Gort - Oranmore contracts that are now both at tender stage or do they not show on your radar at all?

Well they are part of the "strategic" Atlantic Corridor,

Claregalway clocks in at 20k

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N17-16.htm

so definitely,

Gort clocks in at 10k

http://www.nra.ie/NetworkManagement/TrafficCounts/TrafficCounterData/html/N18-06.htm

So given the power of the western lobby, i'm not surprised they are both going ahead of the N20


the N20 suffers because, to get political, it goes through Cork N/W, Cork East & Limerick East, the politicians in these constituencies either have more pressing transport concerns (in the case of the Cork E & Limerick E constituencies) or live in a backbench paradise where they have little or no pull (cork N/W)


Its all politics, ya know?

mysterious

The fact is, The waterford M9 is and should be further down the list of the inter urbans including that of the Atlantic corridor.

InvincibleIrish, just to agree with you on your post, Gort is actually the lowest traffic section of the N18, and is now over 11k with fast growing numbers year on year. The N18 at Oranmore is heavier, as so is Ennis which carries over 16,000 vehicles a day. and Like Claregalway which is well over 20k... So point being the lowest trafficked N18 actuallys is comparable to the busier sections of N9 except near Carlow, which reaches 14,000.

Much of the N9 is around 6,000 until the The Kilkenny N10 multiplex. Waterford could still have the Carlow bypass upgrade, (busier sections of N9) and the current quiet N9 past Paulstown could be stalled,

And allow the Mallow N20 to start, as this road is also horrific in condition not to metion traffic is around 14,000 a day with a large extent of it is H.G.Vs

mysterious

Error

mysterious

Bards wrote: »

Never heard of a Castletown on the M9??????? - and yes the entire M9 is now officially under construction

I did not quote castletown scheme and M9 together...

UGH the ignorance.

If you really don't know what I'm referring to then your are just plain acting stupid, and don't know much about this forum:)

Which I have mentioned to you before when posting false facts of yours:)

mad man

All these claims of nonsense against the figures for Waterford and the justification for infrastructural investment in the South East are pathetic and in the extreme. The facts are that there is realistically only one city in Ireland and that is Dublin. The rest including Cork are just large towns and by themselves do not merit any intensive investment. This is why the country is divided into distinctive regions of which the South East is the most populous and densest after Dublin and the South West. As for the assertion that the Shannon region is some form of powerhouse that has benefited from it’s strategic location is utter nonsense. Shannonside has been one giant tax break for most of the post war period in the form of the Shannon free zone and the Shannon stopover which was a national embarrassment. This type of preferential treatment simply made one region less poor and another more poor and where it once may have been justified today it is not. Whatever about Cork the fact is that Limerick and Galways success is built on state subsidies and transfers that where by and large created in the East including the South East.. As for the historical references about Limerick in particular the only time that it exceeded Corks population was not because Economic wealth but because of an influx of starving people from the congested districts. During this same period Waterford and Cork were Irelands most important cities economically after the Capital. Prior to the famine Waterford and Wexford were the most strategically important places in Ireland due to proximity to the continent and also the most prosperous. It’s no co-incidence that this was when Laissaz faire economics existed.

OTK

Once the M9 is built, car traffic volume will increase compared to the old N9. Housing estates will be built to feed the junctions with commuters to waterford to draw people away from living in the city. Retail parks will surround the junctions, sucking business away from the city retailers. The intercity Waterford-Dublin train will lose passengers to the road. Car ownership will increase.

The development of the M9 reinforces the Dublin centric nature of Irish regional development. The connection between neighbouring Wexford and Waterford is dire. Waterford to Cork is mostly single carriageway. Let's not connect them! let's build three roads to Dublin!

Instead of an M9, why not a dual or motorway connection between Cork and Wexford via Waterford bypass? And instead of an M8, why not a decent Cork Limerick road?

There are six trains a day that crawl from waterford to dublin at an average 39 mph. There is no virtually no public transport in Waterford. Something could have been done to improve this situation.

The last 40km section alone is costing nearly half a billion. The whole scheme must have been around twice that amount. In a period when everyone agrees that we need to lower our energy consumption, was building a new motorway parallel to the N11 really the best way to use a billion quid to improve transport infrastructure for Waterford people?

http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/press_releases/index.htm

Bards

mysterious wrote: »

I did not quote castletown scheme and M9 together...

UGH the ignorance.


If you really don't know what I'm referring to then your are just plain acting stupid, and don't know much about this forum:)

Which I have mentioned to you before when posting false facts of yours:)

and your response from an earlier post on Page four of this thread to another poster who simply type M7 instead of M9 says it all - go back and look

In your words - you are acting plain stupid

invincibleirish

OTK wrote: »

Once the M9 is built, car traffic volume will increase compared to the old N9. Housing estates will be built to feed the junctions with commuters to waterford to draw people away from living in the city. Retail parks will surround the junctions, sucking business away from the city retailers. The intercity Waterford-Dublin train will lose passengers to the road. Car ownership will increase.

The development of the M9 reinforces the Dublin centric nature of Irish regional development. The connection between neighbouring Wexford and Waterford is dire. Waterford to Cork is mostly single carriageway. Let's not connect them! let's build three roads to Dublin!

Instead of an M9, why not a dual or motorway connection between Cork and Wexford via Waterford bypass? And instead of an M8, why not a decent Cork Limerick road?

There are six trains a day that crawl from waterford to dublin at an average 39 mph. There is no virtually no public transport in Waterford. Something could have been done to improve this situation.

The last 40km section alone is costing nearly half a billion. The whole scheme must have been around twice that amount. In a period when everyone agrees that we need to lower our energy consumption, was building a new motorway parallel to the N11 really the best way to use a billion quid to improve transport infrastructure for Waterford people?

http://n9-n10kilcullen-waterford.ie/press_releases/index.htm

QFT +1

mysterious

Bards wrote: »

and your response from an earlier post on Page four of this thread to another poster who simply type M7 instead of M9 says it all - go back and look

In your words - you are acting plain stupid

Actually no I'm not

That poster got confused between the M7 and the M9
And sure ditto to you!

So again... You have forced me to point out your errors.

I would say I'm stupid to respond to you however!

Get back on topic

serfboard

OTK wrote: »

There are six trains a day that crawl from waterford to dublin at an average 39 mph. There is no virtually no public transport in Waterford. Something could have been done to improve this situation.

The last 40km section alone is costing nearly half a billion. The whole scheme must have been around twice that amount. In a period when everyone agrees that we need to lower our energy consumption, was building a new motorway parallel to the N11 really the best way to use a billion quid to improve transport infrastructure for Waterford people?

Very well put. The interesting thing about all this is that, with the price of fuel going the way it is, how many people will be able to afford to drive by the time these inter-urbans are finished?

mad man

The regional development arguement and public transport development are worthy causes but the facts are these are not the primary factors that have caused the South Easts economic difficulties.The primary difficulty has been transport infrastructure especially roads from the Capital. This has been the main cause of difficulty of attracting FDI to the South East given by Sean Dorgan of the IDA and his predecessors and what makes the M9 a more important road than the N20.It is also the reason that the IDA transports corporate officials through Cork rather than Dublin as it is better of the two roads.If the regional development arguement is that strong then it also undermines the priority of a motorway between Cork and Limerick as both of thes cities have International airports.

invincibleirish

I wanted to let go of this thread but im beginning to sense what is the bee in the waterford bonnet.

they want equal treatment in terms of infrastructure spending, FDI and whatever else and Cork/Limerick/Galway and of course Dublin gets.

This is a fallacy, what this country needs and what the NSS should have done was focus on several areas of critical mass and focus spending on these areas.

In my mind these areas should be:

the Greater Dublin Area
Cork/Limerick/Shannon/Galway Corridor

Waterford, Sligo and other places may have designs on being something bigger then they are but hopefully we might get a Government that one day will have the balls to say no to expensive white elephants like the M9.

mysterious

Just to add to that it would be great to have places like Sligo and Waterford to become hubs like the Atlantic gateway and greater Dublin. Even the investment they are asking would be facking fantastic

But
The fact of the matter is the populations of Waterford and Sligo don't have the powerhouse to drive the level of investment that they are asking for. They want infastructure to match the other cities. The size of of the population and area of the country is much to small to have 5/6 parellel motorways running outwards from Dublin. The fact is The M9 was not needed. the N11 is suitable and sufficient. The wasted billion or so of money could of been put into the N20 which is higher priority IMO, as Waterford will still have the N11 Option which is nearly upgraded bar the Enniscorthy and New ross bypasses. These bypasses will be dual carriegway standard and will tie into the Waterford bypass etc. Either way in two years or so Waterford would still have the benifet of a HQDC connecting to Dublin. Now it will have two. While the Cork Limerick road is still a bohereen. This is my whole point. billions wasted, while regions still suffer. It's a win win for all regions, If the road network was properly planned.
Road projects should of being prioritised by which route needed to be upgraded most urgently. Right now, the Government can't even fund the N20 Motorway. A shambles really. It will have to be funded by P.P.P. Oh well they never learn.

Second thing.
Invincibleirish, the ironic thing about this thread and why its a whinge as it was put. The general waterford people that have contributed to this thread have actually quoted,

Waterford deserve more funding than Galway or even Limerick in terms of infastructure.
One reason was Tramore was close to Waterford:D
The other Waterford was in the southeast closer to Europe:D:D (by what 60 miles)...... ahem.

This was when the thread lost its sense and took a hypnotic low.............

Waterford quote "the N6 should be put back for the go ahead of the M9". :rolleyes: I first thought that was a joke.

The Waterford folks will still crip and complain that they are not getting enough inestment. It's hideous. They WILL have two untolled motorways to Dublin in two years time... It's a crazy eyeopener for a region that still feel leftout in comparison to the other regions etc.

mysterious

mad man wrote: »

The regional development arguement and public transport development are worthy causes but the facts are these are not the primary factors that have caused the South Easts economic difficulties.The primary difficulty has been transport infrastructure especially roads from the Capital. This has been the main cause of difficulty of attracting FDI to the South East given by Sean Dorgan of the IDA and his predecessors and what makes the M9 a more important road than the N20.It is also the reason that the IDA transports corporate officials through Cork rather than Dublin as it is better of the two roads.If the regional development arguement is that strong then it also undermines the priority of a motorway between

mad man wrote:

Cork and Limerick as both of thes cities have International airports.

So the IDA are idiots so.

They want two motorways from the southeast to Dublin

A horse and cart road Between Irelands 2nd and 3rd largest cities as well connecting Galway and the western seaboard.


And the 14,000 thousands that use N20 or so vehicles a day can go to Hell or use a plane....

Oh for focks sake.

Sorry for my rant. But Tards are running this nation.

Bards

From the President of the Irish Planning Institute (IPI), Andrew Hind

Planning Institute Challenges New Urban Report
Thursday, March 13, 2008
The President of the Irish Planning Institute (IPI), Andrew Hind, today took issue with the report “Twice the Size?” prepared by the Futures Academy of the Dublin Institute of Technology (DIT) for the Urban Forum. While the IPI acknowledges that the report is intended to stimulate debate on national planning issues, the Institute does not support its recommendations.

The DIT report states that “Dublin is the only ‘real’ Irish City” and recommends that the most realistic way forward is to “reflect the dominant role of the Greater Dublin area” and concentrate Ireland’s population on the east coast encouraging key cities on the south and west coasts to “develop distinctiveness instead of solely population growth.”

Mr Andrew Hind, President of the Irish Planning Institute, said: “The Institute disagrees with this new concept developed by the Futures Academy and supports the central objective of the National Spatial Strategy, to provide a better balance of growth between Dublin and the regional cities. We also support the Government and Local Authorities in their efforts to implement the Atlantic Gateways Initiative to secure the growth of a second major conurbation of international significance centred on Cork, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.
“These strategies will together help stem the declining economic and social trends that have dogged many parts of the south and west for decades by promoting the regional cities as a network of attractive, sustainable and vibrant urban centres, complimentary to Greater Dublin, and offering a real choice of location within Ireland for both our growing population and future investors in our economy.

“The Government’s National Spatial Strategy and its Atlantic Gateways Initiative are both long-term strategies and the instruments for their implementation are still being put in place by Government Agencies and Local Authorities. It is premature to commence a major policy review until these measures have had time to ‘bed in’ and become effective.”

The IPI Annual Conference, which takes place in Westport, Co Mayo on 3rd & 4th April 2008, will specifically address this issue.

mysterious

Funny how my post didnt get a response.

Why? because logic holds true.

fricatus

mysterious wrote: »

Just to add to that it would be great to have places like Sligo and Waterford to become hubs like the Atlantic gateway and greater Dublin.

"Would be great"? It's government policy! See the NSS if you don't believe me...

mysterious wrote: »

The fact of the matter is the populations of Waterford and Sligo don't have the powerhouse to drive the level of investment that they are asking for. They want infastructure to match the other cities.

Waterford is between two and three times bigger than Sligo. It's population is closer to that of Galway. If you're going to go around talking about "places like X and Y", then a Waterford/Galway comparison is much more valid than one of Waterford/Sligo.

mysterious wrote: »

The size of of the population and area of the country is much to small to have 5/6 parellel motorways running outwards from Dublin. The fact is The M9 was not needed. the N11 is suitable and sufficient.

I don't think anyone really disagrees with you there. I certainly don't. All Waterford ever wanted was to have a motorway/DC link to the capital. To build such a link from Dublin to Galway and not build one to Waterford would be a disgraceful disparity of treatment. Which way it went was a minor concern.

mysterious wrote: »

Road projects should of being prioritised by which route needed to be upgraded most urgently. Right now, the Government can't even fund the N20 Motorway. A shambles really. It will have to be funded by P.P.P. Oh well they never learn.

Are you telling me that the Dublin-Waterford route is not one of the most pressing road upgrades in the country? We have the N9 cart-track which is so bad that people routinely choose a longer route so as to avoid it. One or other route had to be upgraded. Just because the government chose - wastefully - to upgrade both the N11 and N9 does not somehow negate this argument!

mysterious wrote: »

Second thing.
Invincibleirish, the ironic thing about this thread and why its a whinge as it was put. The general waterford people that have contributed to this thread have actually quoted,

Waterford deserve more funding than Galway or even Limerick in terms of infastructure.
One reason was Tramore was close to Waterford:D
The other Waterford was in the southeast closer to Europe:D:D (by what 60 miles)...... ahem.

Who said more funding than Galway or Limerick? Quote please, otherwise you're making things up.

mysterious wrote: »

Waterford quote "the N6 should be put back for the go ahead of the M9". :rolleyes: I first thought that was a joke.

The Waterford folks will still crip and complain that they are not getting enough inestment. It's hideous. They WILL have two untolled motorways to Dublin in two years time... It's a crazy eyeopener for a region that still feel leftout in comparison to the other regions etc.

Once again you're misquoting. Here's merlante's quote for your benefit:

merlante wrote: »

Yeah, I was saying that not only are you wrong that inter urbans should be built in the order of the size of the cities (because regional population is most important) but that in any case there is (probably) more population in the vicinity of Waterford than Galway. (This is not an opinion, but a reasonably likely truth which I just don't have the figures to hand to prove.) Therefore, there is no compelling reasons (of any kind) to built a motorway to Galway before Waterford. They should be built concurrently anyway, as they are.

The main points of Waterford's argument are these:

- Most people will agree that investment can't be targeted at every town around the country, so a line has to be drawn somewhere.
- Waterford is one of five places considered by our government big enough to have a city council, so it's logical that the line be drawn below Waterford, not above it.
- Waterford may be a little smaller than Galway, but when you look at the bigger picture of the immediate hinterland, these differences are reduced. Can anyone offer reliable figures about how many people live within say a 15 km and a 25 km radius of both cities? You scoffed at the Tramore argument, but can you actually disprove it?

mysterious

fricatus wrote: »

Who said more funding than Galway or Limerick? Quote please. otherwise you're making things up.

You get two motorways, so that's more funding?

The N11 or M9, not both. N11 would of being fine. I think I've said this many times now. Sigh. Are you clear yet?? Most people actually agree that they are other roads projects that need attention, while your getting a full blown motorway and another N11 which is 3/4 complete as of now. Meanwhile the N20 has no funding. It will be left for another few years. Even though it is more needed than some sections of the M9 as traffic levels are much higher. Waterford has a rail line to Dublin while Limerick to Cork has none, it has the N11 DC most of its lenght and it already has some sections of the M9 opened already. So it is fair to say that the N20 is more urgent right now.

These are some quotes, to show that Merlante believes for pathetic reasons that Waterford should get funding over a bigger city. It's incredibly biased, which is why I use a simply analogy that he basically means Wateford should get investment/funding over Galway" for example.

merlante wrote:

1.There are no towns of any kind of size near Galway. In terms of a 15 mile radius of each of the cities, Waterford would more than likely come out larger than Galway.

merlante wrote:

2.Therefore, there is no compelling reasons (of any kind) to built a motorway to Galway before Waterford

merlante wrote:

3.the south east and Waterford should have the same infrastructure as other large regions

merlante wrote:

4. Waterford should be ahead of Galway

No there are some of things hes said that points to Waterford should be getting the same investment as Cork or Galway or even getting more. This is ebonic crap. Don't ask me too quote anymore of this absurd trophy swaying for Waterford. Accept the facts that Waterfords is 45,000 and should get funding for a city of 45,000. Not 72,000 and and not 100,000. Deal with this please.

fricatus wrote:

- Waterford may be a little smaller than Galway, but when you look at the bigger picture of the immediate hinterland, these differences are reduced. Can anyone offer reliable figures about how many people live within say a 15 km and a 25 km radius of both cities? You scoffed at the Tramore argument, but can you actually disprove it?

Oh please don't start with tea and coffee argument about Tramore. I would dissprove it, but its way to silly to point it out. When Galway is still actually bigger than Waterford with Tramore combined. So I'm not even going to start... ffs. we've been through this already and it gets nowhere, let's not get silly on adding towns that are not in the urban boundaries. When Watefords boundary is one of the largest of the regional cities, and its still takes less population in than the others. It's like I'm arguing to a two year old...

darkman2

The only reason Waterford is getting a motorway is because Martin Cullen lives there:D

mysterious

darkman2 wrote: »

The only reason Waterford is getting a motorway is because Martin Cullen lives there:D

I know. Which is also why the Waterford route got ahead of the Limerick N7 when he was minister for transport. Which is done and dusted now, but still.

Anyway not that hes from the South east

Hes a tosser.

Bards

Fact re the N11. The N11 terminates at Wexford a good 30 Miles from Waterford. Are we to believe that the old saying "I wouldn;t start from Waterford if I were you, I'd go east about 30 miles and then start your journey from there" holds true?

Presently the N11 DC starts from clough just north of Enniscorthy a good 45 minute drive from Waterford. on a Friday add another 30 minutes to get through New Ross.

This is like comparing the two motorways running parallel to the north West N2 & M3 which are closer together that the N11 & M9 but which gets no ire from posters like Mysterious.

This is hyprotical considering that the M3 is a road to nowhere (Commuter-ville), and will be of no strategic importance to the Country as a whole, has no industry worth noting, no Port etc etc

oh yeah isn;t Dempsey from Meath so that must be why they are getting a Motorway;)

mysterious

Bards wrote: »

Fact re the N11. The N11 terminates at Wexford a good 30 Miles from Waterford. Are we to believe that the old saying "I wouldn;t start from Waterford if I were you, I'd go east about 30 miles and then start your journey from there" holds true?

Presently the N11 DC starts from clough just north of Enniscorthy a good 45 minute drive from Waterford. on a Friday add another 30 minutes to get through New Ross.

This is like comparing the two motorways running parallel to the north West N2 & M3 which are closer together that the N11 & M9 but which gets no ire from posters like Mysterious.

This is hyprotical considering that the M3 is a road to nowhere (Commuter-ville), and will be of no strategic importance to the Country as a whole, has no industry worth noting, no Port etc etc

oh yeah isn;t Dempsey from Meath so that must be why they are getting a Motorway;)

SIGH

This is where you have to be ignorant?! Did you ever hear of the N25 or N30 that actually connects to the N11. It's on the Map.

Thats like saying Cork travellers won't use the N7 at Portloaise as the N8 terminates at the N7. Bards I hope your just joking around. If not I'm in horror of your recent post.

Second point i've said this already Bards. I hope you can understand it

The New Ross and Enniscorthy bypass will tie into the Waterford bypass and connect to the N11 just North of Enniscorty. It will be of dual carriegway standard. Please go to the NRA website and a sea of information will come before your eyes. They might even have maps available to show the routes etc. When the route is finished it will run along towards Waterford City. IT can match a good alternative to the M9.

M3 was built to create urban sprawl in meath, (like the M7 did in kildare and M50 ditto) You have to pay for it though. Off topic now

serfboard

mysterious wrote: »

Did you ever hear of the N25 or N30 that actually connects to the N11.

Agreed, HQDC N11/N30/N25 to Waterford would have done the same thing.

However, given their rise as commuter towns, Kilkenny and Carlow did need to be bypassed. I agree with what other are posters saying about tolling, though. Road to Galway to have 2 tolls and road to Waterford to have none? If ye guys have sufficient traffic volumes then this could (should?) have been PPP'd.

OTOH, all politics is local

invincibleirish

serfboard wrote: »

OTOH, all politics is local

You say it like thats a good thing :rolleyes:

mad man

invincibleirish wrote: »

You say it like thats a good thing :rolleyes:

It's not a good thing. Which is why the ire directed at Waterford should be directed where it belongs i.e the Western seaboard who have developed parish pump politics to a fine art.The N11 would not have served the other population centres as has been stated.As far local politics is concerned the problem only seems to be that Waterford has recently managed to do what the rest of the country has been doing for generations.

Boardsbud

Probably the best post in this long boring thread mad man, well done. There's a lot of parish pump politics at play in this thread. I've driven to Waterford recently down the N9, a disgrace of a road, particularly through KK, shame on that authority for not keeping up basic maintainance i.e. straightening a few bends and widening roads where land obviously exists in its ownership to do so. I'm amazed why people in South KK have problems with Waterford re proposed boundary extensions etc.., try targeting you ire at your own County Council and TD's who have no regard for the people in that county, south of the city.
I travelled back up the N25/30/11 route, a far better road in every respect, even the N30 stretch is better than the N9 through KK but until that road is upgraded (it was resurfaced for the Tour de France how many years ago ?) and the New Ross and Enniscorthy bypasses are in place, both a long way off, this route will not be used by most Waterford people heading for Dublin. Martin Cullen is the first minister Waterford has had for years, he's bound to deliver something for that county "in the national interest" in the same way as gombeen men like Jackie Healy Rae who hold the government to ransom in lieu of his support delivers results for his constituency by means of that very same parish pump politics routine. If people in Cork in particular have issues with the N20 or other routes, why not canvas Micheal Martin or Ned O' Keefe or whoever else is down there ? They work on the very same principles.
I'd love to see national infrastructure delivered on a "needs" basis just as much as anyone but as long as gombeen government continues this wont change. But there's no point ranting on here about roads that are two thirds built.

invincibleirish

Boardsbud wrote: »

Probably the best post in this long boring thread mad man, well done. There's a lot of parish pump politics at play in this thread. I've driven to Waterford recently down the N9, a disgrace of a road, particularly through KK, shame on that authority for not keeping up basic maintainance i.e. straightening a few bends and widening roads where land obviously exists in its ownership to do so. I'm amazed why people in South KK have problems with Waterford re proposed boundary extensions etc.., try targeting you ire at your own County Council and TD's who have no regard for the people in that county, south of the city.
.....If people in Cork in particular have issues with the N20 or other routes, why not canvas Micheal Martin or Ned O' Keefe or whoever else is down there ? They work on the very same principles.
I'd love to see national infrastructure delivered on a "needs" basis just as much as anyone but as long as gombeen government continues this wont change. But there's no point ranting on here about roads that are two thirds built.

Again, you say all that like thats a good thing. double sighs for you...:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Boardsbud

Care to elaborate further than a few smileys invincibleirish ?
I think its quite clear from my post that I don't consider the way this country is run, as a "good thing". I cannot personally do a whole lot about that other than exercise my right to vote at election time. I can canvas politicians in between times but as a country we get the government we elect and as a result have to live with the decisions made and approved by them whether we like them or not. Unfortunately the way many of these decisions are made are very questionable and are blatant vote catchers. There's nothing new here, this is the way this country has been run forever, no matter who's been in power. The government is just one big mickey mouse county council run on bribes and corruption and favours for friends and the party faithful. Did I read somewhere the Tullamore bypass is being fast tracked ? That has to be more than just a coincidence. I don't know how that particular road fits into the scheme of things as regards crucial national infrastructure.
But you've made it clear through this thread that you've got issues re the N20 and issues with a road to Waterford that's well on the way to being built and will be finished whether you like it or not. Why not vent some of your energies towards campaigning locally and canvassing your TD's about the need for the N20 upgrade rather than being against a road thats nearly finished.

invincibleirish

Boardsbud wrote: »

Care to elaborate further than a few smileys invincibleirish ?
I think its quite clear from my post that I don't consider the way this country is run, as a "good thing". I cannot personally do a whole lot about that other than exercise my right to vote at election time. I can canvas politicians in between times but as a country we get the government we elect and as a result have to live with the decisions made and approved by them whether we like them or not. Unfortunately the way many of these decisions are made are very questionable and are blatant vote catchers. There's nothing new here, this is the way this country has been run forever, no matter who's been in power. The government is just one big mickey mouse county council run on bribes and corruption and favours for friends and the party faithful. Did I read somewhere the Tullamore bypass is being fast tracked ? That has to be more than just a coincidence. I don't know how that particular road fits into the scheme of things as regards crucial national infrastructure.
But you've made it clear through this thread that you've got issues re the N20 and issues with a road to Waterford that's well on the way to being built and will be finished whether you like it or not. Why not vent some of your energies towards campaigning locally and canvassing your TD's about the need for the N20 upgrade rather than being against a road thats nearly finished.

Its parochial politics, what more needs to be said?.

Boardsbud

So it took 7 days to compose those words of wisdom !
No one's denying the fact that parochial politics are at play here. Of course nothing like that never happens in Cork though.........