Jimmy Carter refused entry into Gaza

CK.1

I was watching the Islam Channel News last night and they had a story on how Jimmy Carter is visiting Israel, how he talked to Hamas, how he wants to visit Gaza but Israel won't give him permission, how he has not been given any protection by the Israelies on his visit. I think this is newsworthy news but can't find any reports of it on the likes of BBC and SKY. I think this is another example of the pro-Israeli, pro-War on terror media filtering the news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080415/pl_nm/israel_carter_dc

El Stuntman

CK.1 wrote: »

I was watching the Islam Channel News last night and they had a story on how Jimmy Carter is visiting Israel, how he talked to Hamas, how he wants to visit Gaza but Israel won't give him permission, how he has not been given any protection by the Israelies on his visit. I think this is newsworthy news but can't find any reports of it on the likes of BBC and SKY. I think this is another example of the pro-Israeli, pro-War on terror media filtering the news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080415/pl_nm/israel_carter_dc

it was reported in the Irish Times yesterday and it's on the BBC website

but hey, never let the facts get in the way of a bit of moral outrage anyway

McArmalite

El Stuntman wrote: »

it was reported in the Irish Times yesterday and it's on the BBC website

but hey, never let the facts get in the way of a bit of moral outrage anyway

Well a normal person would hardly call the shunning of an ex US President on a visit to listen to the positions of different Palestinian figures as very important news, especially from the state that receives God knows how many billions from the US ( indeed Carter wasn't shy of proping up the zionist state in his term ) as major news and not little tit bits somewhere in the Irish Times and on one of the many web sites of the BBC. But that's just typical of the hypocrisy of the western world's media and a symptom of the supremacist arrogance that is at the core of zionism.

wes

Hardly surprising, especially considering Jimmy Carters book on Israel. You would think that the man who helped arrange peace with Egypt (and also gave billions to) Israel, would be treated better. However, calling Israel exactly what it is, an apartheid state, gets him treatment like this.

El Stuntman

he should stick to the peanuts imo

Kev_ps3

CK.1 wrote: »

I was watching the Islam Channel News last night and they had a story on how Jimmy Carter is visiting Israel, how he talked to Hamas, how he wants to visit Gaza but Israel won't give him permission, how he has not been given any protection by the Israelies on his visit. I think this is newsworthy news but can't find any reports of it on the likes of BBC and SKY. I think this is another example of the pro-Israeli, pro-War on terror media filtering the news.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080415/pl_nm/israel_carter_dc

Not really surprising. The BBC and Sky arnt real news stations anyway, just propaganda.

El Stuntman

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Not really surprising. The BBC and Sky arnt real news stations anyway, just propaganda.

Sky is a pile of poo as a news station I'll give you that

but the BBC? , about the best around imo

what is your idea of a 'real news station'?

Kev_ps3

El Stuntman wrote: »

Sky is a pile of poo as a news station I'll give you that

but the BBC? , about the best around imo

what is your idea of a 'real news station'?

Ok, the BBC is a good news service, but it does 'select' what it wants to air. Euronews is good, so is Al-Jazeera.
Best thing to do is listen to it all - from Fox news to Al-Jazeera and then make up your own mind. What you will realise is that there IS propaganda in news reporting, you just have to be smart enough to figure it out!

El Stuntman

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Ok, the BBC is a good news service, but it does 'select' what it wants to air. Euronews is good, so is Al-Jazeera.
Best thing to do is listen to it all - from Fox news to Al-Jazeera and then make up your own mind. What you will realise is that there IS propaganda in news reporting, you just have to be smart enough to figure it out!

well my own propaganda is obviously influencing you as you've reclassified the Beeb from 'propaganda' to 'good news service' in one post! :pac:

<me goes to seek employment in sort of country that has Ministry of Information>

munchester29

I fail to understand why Israel is supposed to supply him with protection when he goes to visit Gaza. Aren't the people (Hamas) who actually rule in Gaza supposed to do that?
Also, why would he need protection in Gaza? I thought that everyone there is friendly and hospitable?

Playboy

munchester29 wrote: »

Also, why would he need protection in Gaza? I thought that everyone there is friendly and hospitable?

Well most of them are. Like most countries it has a few undesirables .. for instance Israel has to put up with an awful government

munchester29

Playboy wrote: »

Well most of them are. Like most countries it has a few undesirables .. for instance Israel has to put up with an awful government

I think that if I ever see a government body anywhere in the world which is NOT awaful I'll probably drop dead from astonishment.

cabinteelytom

Well, earlier today, three Israeli soldiers lost their lives making an incursion into Gaza, and outraged Israeli forces then went on a binge of carnage; killing five children from one family, a 67 year old man, a Reuter's cameraman, and two youths who were walking past him.(bbc.co.uk).
So Jimmy Carter may count himself lucky.

Water Sprite

It IS amazing what doesn't make the news or is shunted to the back page, (e.g., use of white phosphorus as a weapon in Iraq).

However, the lack of coverage on this topic doesn't particularly surprise me since Jimmy Carter hasn't been a player in the international or politics arenas for 25 years. It isn't breaking news - but still, interesting.

El Stuntman

may be slightly OT but it's interesting the contrast between what's happening in the (relatively) secular Fatah West Bank and the (Islamic Fundamentalist) Hamas Gaza Strip

No rockets/border attacks being launched from the West bank and no consequent Israeli retaliation. Daily rocket attacks from Gaza and consequent Israeli retaliation.

hmmm

Kev_ps3

cabinteelytom wrote: »

Well, earlier today, three Israeli soldiers lost their lives making an incursion into Gaza, and outraged Israeli forces then went on a binge of carnage; killing five children from one family, a 67 year old man, a Reuter's cameraman, and two youths who were walking past him.(bbc.co.uk).
So Jimmy Carter may count himself lucky.

Sounds like somethings from WW2, nazi soldiers gets killed so they take revenge by killing all in their path.

munchester29

I always wonder how come there are always "inoccent" citizens who "just happened" to be in the area where the fighting broke out.

The fighting is still concentrated in specific areas - the Israelis fire to areas where the Hamas is firing from. So, what are all the innocents doing there? and they always seem to be just strolling down the street or something.
Why aren't Hamas asking non combatants to leave before they start firing into Israel territory? Why do they fire from civilian enclosures?

I have at least one answer - if innocents die, it's just another card the Hamas can play with. They don't really feel bad for their own people- they just use them as pawns in their struggle against Israel.

Kev_ps3

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Sounds like somethings from WW2, nazi soldiers gets killed so they take revenge by killing all in their path.

For cheaper points, you should drag up the Holocaust altogether.

One can make points about Israel, or indeed any perceived persecution, without using the Nazi analogy. It seems a bit distasteful to me. When 6 million Palestinians die in a genocide, replete with concentration camps and gas chambers perhaps, then dunno about others but I'll happily accept the comparison at that stage.

jonny72

munchester29 wrote: »

I always wonder how come there are always "inoccent" citizens who "just happened" to be in the area where the fighting broke out.

The fighting is still concentrated in specific areas - the Israelis fire to areas where the Hamas is firing from. So, what are all the innocents doing there? and they always seem to be just strolling down the street or something.
Why aren't Hamas asking non combatants to leave before they start firing into Israel territory? Why do they fire from civilian enclosures?

I have at least one answer - if innocents die, it's just another card the Hamas can play with. They don't really feel bad for their own people- they just use them as pawns in their struggle against Israel.

Imagine if you will, you are in Dublin and there are CONSTANTLY planes, drones, helicopters, etc flying overhead. So much so that it becomes a part of everyday life if thats possible. These planes/helicopters/drones can fire missiles from very long distances. Tanks can fire from out of sight, so can artillery. No matter how much you try and hide, 24 hours a day, you could become a casualty. There will always be "collateral damage" on the Palestinian side, the question is how much of it is unavoidable and how much of it is quite bluntly for revenge/punishment purposes. Based on the last few decades I'd say its a bit of both.

munchester29

jonny72 wrote: »

Imagine if you will, you are in Dublin and there are CONSTANTLY planes, drones, helicopters, etc flying overhead. So much so that it becomes a part of everyday life if thats possible. These planes/helicopters/drones can fire missiles from very long distances. Tanks can fire from out of sight, so can artillery. No matter how much you try and hide, 24 hours a day, you could become a casualty. There will always be "collateral damage" on the Palestinian side, the question is how much of it is unavoidable and how much of it is quite bluntly for revenge/punishment purposes. Based on the last few decades I'd say its a bit of both.

The Israelis can't just sit idly by and have their cities fired on with rockets, and have their army patrols attacked without attacking back. I do believe though that they are not targeting innocent civilians on purpose. Like you said - collateral damage...

But think of the "collateral damage” during WWII when Dresden in Germany was bombed, for example. The Israelis could have done much worse to the Palestinians if they really wanted to. I actually think that all things considered the Israelis are showing great amounts of restraint in their reactions to the attacks on them.

Playboy

munchester29 wrote: »

The Israelis can't just sit idly by and have their cities fired on with rockets, and have their army patrols attacked without attacking back. I do believe though that they are not targeting innocent civilians on purpose. Like you said - collateral damage...

But think of the "collateral damage” during WWII when Dresden in Germany was bombed, for example. The Israelis could have done much worse to the Palestinians if they really wanted to. I actually think that all things considered the Israelis are showing great amounts of restraint in their reactions to the attacks on them.

You got to be kidding me. There is incident after incident documented where Israeli soldiers have targeted innocent civilians for what seem like obvious punishment purposes .. I think someone just gave a new example a few posts back .. There is UN resolution after resolution condeming Israel for its actions in the West Bank and the Gaza strip. And YOU think that Israel is showing restraint ... I'm actually starting to lose any bits of remaining faith I had in humanity when I see posts like yours. The death and destruction Israel and Zionism has caused to the Palestinian people is up there with the Holocaust in Germany. There are no ifs and buts about this .. The information is there in books, newspaper and journal articles. There is no 2 sides to this story. There is a clear aggressor from day one ... an aggressor who has used the holocaust and wealthy lobby groups to get what it wants and to garner world sympathy by potraying itself as the victim (the irony!!) Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, an anti semite or a self hating jew like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstine.

This topic has been argued to death on this forum so unless you are very right of centre, a Jew, an Israeli, a racist .. then go read some old topics on this board or pick up a couple of books and Im sure you will be convinced of the error of your current views.

jonny72

munchester29 wrote: »

The Israelis can't just sit idly by and have their cities fired on with rockets, and have their army patrols attacked without attacking back. I do believe though that they are not targeting innocent civilians on purpose. Like you said - collateral damage...

But think of the "collateral damage” during WWII when Dresden in Germany was bombed, for example. The Israelis could have done much worse to the Palestinians if they really wanted to. I actually think that all things considered the Israelis are showing great amounts of restraint in their reactions to the attacks on them.

Which are obviously reflected in the casualties on both sides

2007
Israeli deaths - 7
Palestinian deaths - 373

Playboy

Forget it .. he is a lost cause. If you check his last posts he is obviously an aggressive Israeli apologist .. going to far as to start threads about Israel in the Islam forum last year :rolleyes:

El Stuntman

Playboy wrote: »

Forget it .. he is a lost cause. If you check his last posts he is obviously an aggressive Israeli apologist .. going to far as to start threads about Israel in the Islam forum last year :rolleyes:

attack the post not the poster...

Playboy, do you not accept that there is aggressive action on both sides?

Hamas fires rockets at Israel, border raids etc. Israel retaliates - I accept that the retaliation appears disproportionate but Israel's military might is massive compared to Hamas so that's probably to be expected

This is not a one-way story and trying to present it as such is grossly oversimplifying it

Playboy

El Stuntman wrote: »

attack the post not the poster...

Playboy, do you not accept that there is aggressive action on both sides?

Hamas fires rockets at Israel, border raids etc. Israel retaliates - I accept that the retaliation appears disproportionate but Israel's military might is massive compared to Hamas so that's probably to be expected

This is not a one-way story and trying to present it as such is grossly oversimplifying it

If you have a longer memory than the last few years then it is very simple. Israel should not exist as a state. But it does and we are going to have to get used to that .. So why not a two state solution or even better .. a democratic one state solution? Or is that bastion of human rights and liberal thinking Israel afraid to have one state where each and every citizen get a vote no matter what the religion or race?

Also I wasnt 'attacking the poster' .. the above poster obviously has a very clear agenda and isnt going to be convinced otherwise. My post was merely point out the futility of carrying on a discsussion with him/her.

El Stuntman

Playboy wrote: »

If you have a longer memory than the last few years then it is very simple. Israel should not exist as a state. But it does and we are going to have to get used to that .. So why not a two state solution or even better .. a democratic one state solution? Or is that bastion of human rights and liberal thinking Israel afraid to have one state where each and every citizen get a vote no matter what the religion or race?
.

nice post, I notice you didn't answer my question

wes

El Stuntman wrote: »

attack the post not the poster...

Playboy, do you not accept that there is aggressive action on both sides?

Hamas fires rockets at Israel, border raids etc. Israel retaliates - I accept that the retaliation appears disproportionate but Israel's military might is massive compared to Hamas so that's probably to be expected

This is not a one-way story and trying to present it as such is grossly oversimplifying it

Israel, engages in deliberate provocation themselves. Demolishing houses, attacks on Palestinians during cease fires, colony building, apartheid wall building, Jewish only roads, land theft, 3rd class status for Palestinians, to just name a few. The version of events you present is very 1 sided, the Palestinians aren't always the one who provoke, Israel does it just as much.

El Stuntman

wes wrote: »

Israel, engages in deliberate provocation themselves. Demolishing houses, attacks on Palestinians during cease fires, colony building, apartheid wall building, Jewish only roads, land theft, 3rd class status for Palestinians, to just name a few. The version of events you present is very 1 sided, the Palestinians aren't always the one who provoke, Israel does it just as much.

great, so we are agreed

there is aggression from both sides, there is no hierarchy of victimhood here

wes

El Stuntman wrote: »

great, so we are agreed

there is aggression from both sides, there is no hierarchy of victimhood here

I think there is clear difference in the effect of the conflict on the 2 populaces. The Palestinians suffer a lot more due to Israel better tech (funded by the US) and the "Wests" one sided support of Israel. Almost all Palestinian populace is collectively punished on a regular basis, either via Israel, boycotts or having to live in a refugee camp and not being allowed to go home.

Both sides are guilty of violence, no doubt there, but the effect on the 2 populaces are quite different. The only Israeli's who suffer akin to the Palestinians, are the people of Sderot who have to endure constant rocket fire.

What I do agree with your on is that both sides are guilty for the continued cycle of violence.

munchester29

Playboy wrote: »

You got to be kidding me. There is incident after incident documented where Israeli soldiers have targeted innocent civilians for what seem like obvious punishment purposes .. I think someone just gave a new example a few posts back .. There is UN resolution after resolution condeming Israel for its actions in the West Bank and the Gaza strip. And YOU think that Israel is showing restraint ... I'm actually starting to lose any bits of remaining faith I had in humanity when I see posts like yours. The death and destruction Israel and Zionism has caused to the Palestinian people is up there with the Holocaust in Germany. There are no ifs and buts about this .. The information is there in books, newspaper and journal articles. There is no 2 sides to this story. There is a clear aggressor from day one ... an aggressor who has used the holocaust and wealthy lobby groups to get what it wants and to garner world sympathy by potraying itself as the victim (the irony!!) Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, an anti semite or a self hating jew like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstine.

This topic has been argued to death on this forum so unless you are very right of centre, a Jew, an Israeli, a racist .. then go read some old topics on this board or pick up a couple of books and Im sure you will be convinced of the error of your current views.

"There is incident after incident documented where Israeli soldiers have targeted innocent civilians for what seem like obvious punishment purposes "

Documented by whom? The Palestinians themselves? Humanitarian organizations that, for some reason, never have any condemning words when suicide bombers explode in Israeli cities, or when dozens of rockets are fired on a daily basis into Israel? Show me one event when these organizations condemned the violence perpetrated by the Palestinians, and then I might start believing what they are saying.
How about the well documented incidents of suicide bombers, rocket attacks, etc. on Israel, what do you think about those?
How about the well documented incidents of Palestinians killing Palestinians? Did you know that more Palestinians are killed by their own brethren each year than by Israel? That’s documented too.

"There is UN resolution after resolution condemning Israel for its actions in the West Bank and the Gaza strip"
Remind me... the UN... is that the organization with the human rights council thing... you know, the one with members such as China, Pakistan & Saudi Arabia amongst other honourable keepers of human rights...
If only the UN spent half the time it spends on criticizing Israel, on criticizing countries like China, Iran, Syria, etc. who commit much worse crimes against humanity than anything that can be claimed against Israel, the world might have been a better place. Funny how all their efforts are concentrated on Israel most of the time, when in China, thousands of people (and that's by official counts, god only knows what the unofficial numbers are) are killed by the government every year.

"The death and destruction Israel and Zionism has caused to the Palestinian people is up there with the Holocaust in Germany"
Like someone said earlier in the thread - you can start comparing the two only after (or while) millions of Palestinians are dead because of Israel, and to me it's just an empty slogan typical to... you guessed it... Palestinian propaganda.

"There are no ifs and buts about this .. The information is there in books, newspaper and journal articles. There is no 2 sides to this story. There is a clear aggressor from day one ... an aggressor who has used the holocaust and wealthy lobby groups to get what it wants and to garner world sympathy by portraying itself as the victim (the irony!!) Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, an anti semite or a self hating jew like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstine."
Well, what can I say about that?
The clear aggressor from day one - well, you must mean the 6 or 7 Arab countries who attacked Israel in 1948 after a UN resolution giving the Jews a state (by the way - the same UN who had those wonderful resolutions you supported in your earlier comment... funny how some resolutions are ok, and some aren't).
Also, I never heard a story that didn't have two sides to it. Just to give you an example - I'm sure you are familiar with the refugee problem. I'm sure you are convinced that the Palestinian refugees are another evidence of the cruelty of Israel, and that you support the right of return and all that. Well I have another side of the story for you, maybe you will learn something this time - that there were actually more Jewish refugees than Palestinian, and that the loss in assets was much more severe on the Jewish side. Here is the link:
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=253&PID=0&IID=2091&TTL=The_Palestinian_Refugee_Issue:__Rhetoric_vs._Reality

And finally, I saw you calling me "an aggressive Israeli apologist" in a later post.
I am not apologizing for Israel. As in any war, both sides are committing horrible act of violence against each other. I am too old and experienced to think that there is only one side to the story, and I am too familiar with the Israeli/Palestinian problem and with Israelis & Palestinians.

Both sides are at war, and it's only obvious that the stronger side will cause more damage to the weaker side. It's only obvious that peace loving people will usually sympathize with the weaker side - it's human nature. It doesn't necessarily mean that the weaker side is right in its cause or just in its ways.

I do know that Israel left Gaza. Israel allowed a Palestinian government to rule there. The only thing it got in return was rockets on its cities, and attacks on it's soldiers which could have been stopped more easily if Israel stayed in Gaza.
Look at the west bank where Hamas doesn't rule - hardly any violence there.
Israel follows a simple rule - if we they are attacked, they attack back, and I think it is only natural.
What I see, is that Israel is at least trying to achieve peace, and is holding back from using its full force against Hamas.
I also see that Hamas are firing rockets on Israeli cities on a daily basis.
I also see that the Palestinians are killing their own people.
I also see that the funds given to the Palestinians by the UN/world are used to propagate war, instead of improving people's lives.
I also see, that in Palestinian text books, children are taught to become suicide bombers and to hate their Israeli neighbours.
I also see how Palestinians use their children as shields when firing at Israeli forces and cities.
I also see how Palestinians dance in the streets whenever there is a mega terror even against western countries.

I see many other things, but I'm just tired of typing.

Playboy

El Stuntman wrote: »

Playboy, do you not accept that there is aggressive action on both sides?

I did answer your question .. you just didnt realize I did. If someone attacked you and you had to defend yourself .. would you call that aggressive action on both sides? If someone broke into your house, killed your friends and family and continued to live there ... would you be upset? Would you be happy with the title of 'aggressor' if you tried to do something about it.

Israel .. and this is aimed at Munchester too .. is a terrorist and apartheid state that should never have been allowed come into existence. Why does there have to 2 states? Because Israeli's wont accept the majority rule of the arab muslim population in the region of Palestine. There should be one state .. one state where everybody has an equal vote. If the Israeli's/Zionist Jews did not like that then they should have found somewhere else to live. Why did the Palestinians have to suffer the fallout from a European war? Why did they have to be displaced from their lands and suffer an unending cycle of tragedies since then? Can someone please out of all the Israel apologists we have on here answer me that simple question?

Munchester .. its nice to see your history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict starts in 1948. Mine starts at the turn of the century with the emergence of the Zionist Ideology which is to blame for this whole mess.

Israeli's/Zionist Jews had NO legitemate claim to those lands. They cheated, bribed, lobbied, bullied and manipulated until they got a Jewish state. Then they have the arrogance to claim the title of victim when the surrounding countries attack them. Apologists like yourself make me sick to the core with your bull**** excuses for Israel. At least admit that the creation of the state of Israel in someone elses lands was a disgrace ..

But now we have to put up with it because it doesnt look like its going anywhere. So what are the solutions? A two state solution? Well ask Israel to stop expanding into the West Bank and breaking every god damn Un resolution. How about a one state solution? Why doesnt Israel fancy that one? Not big fans of democracy are they? No .. they want their own little country where they make the rules .. and if they have to steal it, kill for it and oppress an entire population to get it then so be it .. thats what they do .. and then they will spin that propoganda machine and spend lots of money lobbying in the US to make simple people in this world think that they are the victims. What a fckin Joke