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Jimmy Carter refused entry into Gaza
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munchester29 wrote: »"There is incident after incident documented where Israeli soldiers have targeted innocent civilians for what seem like obvious punishment purposes "
Documented by whom? The Palestinians themselves? Humanitarian organizations that, for some reason, never have any condemning words when suicide bombers explode in Israeli cities, or when dozens of rockets are fired on a daily basis into Israel? Show me one event when these organizations condemned the violence perpetrated by the Palestinians, and then I might start believing what they are saying.
How about the well documented incidents of suicide bombers, rocket attacks, etc. on Israel, what do you think about those?
How about the well documented incidents of Palestinians killing Palestinians? Did you know that more Palestinians are killed by their own brethren each year than by Israel? That’s documented too.
"There is UN resolution after resolution condemning Israel for its actions in the West Bank and the Gaza strip"
Remind me... the UN... is that the organization with the human rights council thing... you know, the one with members such as China, Pakistan & Saudi Arabia amongst other honourable keepers of human rights...
If only the UN spent half the time it spends on criticizing Israel, on criticizing countries like China, Iran, Syria, etc. who commit much worse crimes against humanity than anything that can be claimed against Israel, the world might have been a better place. Funny how all their efforts are concentrated on Israel most of the time, when in China, thousands of people (and that's by official counts, god only knows what the unofficial numbers are) are killed by the government every year.
"The death and destruction Israel and Zionism has caused to the Palestinian people is up there with the Holocaust in Germany"
Like someone said earlier in the thread - you can start comparing the two only after (or while) millions of Palestinians are dead because of Israel, and to me it's just an empty slogan typical to... you guessed it... Palestinian propaganda.
"There are no ifs and buts about this .. The information is there in books, newspaper and journal articles. There is no 2 sides to this story. There is a clear aggressor from day one ... an aggressor who has used the holocaust and wealthy lobby groups to get what it wants and to garner world sympathy by portraying itself as the victim (the irony!!) Anyone who disagrees is either stupid, an anti semite or a self hating jew like Noam Chomsky and Norman Finkelstine."
Well, what can I say about that?
The clear aggressor from day one - well, you must mean the 6 or 7 Arab countries who attacked Israel in 1948 after a UN resolution giving the Jews a state (by the way - the same UN who had those wonderful resolutions you supported in your earlier comment... funny how some resolutions are ok, and some aren't).
Also, I never heard a story that didn't have two sides to it. Just to give you an example - I'm sure you are familiar with the refugee problem. I'm sure you are convinced that the Palestinian refugees are another evidence of the cruelty of Israel, and that you support the right of return and all that. Well I have another side of the story for you, maybe you will learn something this time - that there were actually more Jewish refugees than Palestinian, and that the loss in assets was much more severe on the Jewish side. Here is the link:
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=253&PID=0&IID=2091&TTL=The_Palestinian_Refugee_Issue:__Rhetoric_vs._Reality
And finally, I saw you calling me "an aggressive Israeli apologist" in a later post.
I am not apologizing for Israel. As in any war, both sides are committing horrible act of violence against each other. I am too old and experienced to think that there is only one side to the story, and I am too familiar with the Israeli/Palestinian problem and with Israelis & Palestinians.
Both sides are at war, and it's only obvious that the stronger side will cause more damage to the weaker side. It's only obvious that peace loving people will usually sympathize with the weaker side - it's human nature. It doesn't necessarily mean that the weaker side is right in its cause or just in its ways.
I do know that Israel left Gaza. Israel allowed a Palestinian government to rule there. The only thing it got in return was rockets on its cities, and attacks on it's soldiers which could have been stopped more easily if Israel stayed in Gaza.
Look at the west bank where Hamas doesn't rule - hardly any violence there.
Israel follows a simple rule - if we they are attacked, they attack back, and I think it is only natural.
What I see, is that Israel is at least trying to achieve peace, and is holding back from using its full force against Hamas.
I also see that Hamas are firing rockets on Israeli cities on a daily basis.
I also see that the Palestinians are killing their own people.
I also see that the funds given to the Palestinians by the UN/world are used to propagate war, instead of improving people's lives.
I also see, that in Palestinian text books, children are taught to become suicide bombers and to hate their Israeli neighbours.
I also see how Palestinians use their children as shields when firing at Israeli forces and cities.
I also see how Palestinians dance in the streets whenever there is a mega terror even against western countries.
I see many other things, but I'm just tired of typing.
load of crap .. UN is bad .. Palestinian propoganda blah blah blah. Im an anti-semite I suppose too. Whats your reasons for defending Israel? Saw it in the news one day and thought that you had help us all understand what a good place it is .. Have you ever been to the Region?0 -
Tanks can fire from out of sight,
No, we can't, unless the tank is used in the artillery role, which is hardly ever trained these days.
However, for the sake of the OP, I'm in Kentucky and I knew about the Carter /Hamas/ Gaza /Israel not granting security business. I saw it on CNN, and for the purposes of this post, I checked Fox News, MSN, Reuters, CBS and Yahoo sites, and they all had mention of it.
NTM0 -
munchester29 wrote: »Documented by whom? The Palestinians themselves? Humanitarian organizations that, for some reason, never have any condemning words when suicide bombers explode in Israeli cities, or when dozens of rockets are fired on a daily basis into Israel? Show me one event when these organizations condemned the violence perpetrated by the Palestinians, and then I might start believing what they are saying.
Israel/Gaza Strip: Rockets and Shelling Violate Laws of War
Typical straw man. Human right organizations do condemn both sides. The example above is just one.
You accusation that they don't condemn Palestinians is ridiculous. They condemn everyone.munchester29 wrote: »How about the well documented incidents of suicide bombers, rocket attacks, etc. on Israel, what do you think about those?
No one is denying these take place.munchester29 wrote: »How about the well documented incidents of Palestinians killing Palestinians? Did you know that more Palestinians are killed by their own brethren each year than by Israel? That’s documented too.
Hardly excuses Israel now does it? Also, the situation the Palestinians find themselves in is hardly helpful.munchester29 wrote: »Remind me... the UN... is that the organization with the human rights council thing... you know, the one with members such as China, Pakistan & Saudi Arabia amongst other honourable keepers of human rights...
So? The security council is stacked with Israel buddies who provide them cover.munchester29 wrote: »If only the UN spent half the time it spends on criticizing Israel, on criticizing countries like China, Iran, Syria, etc. who commit much worse crimes against humanity than anything that can be claimed against Israel, the world might have been a better place. Funny how all their efforts are concentrated on Israel most of the time, when in China, thousands of people (and that's by official counts, god only knows what the unofficial numbers are) are killed by the government every year.
The UN doesn't ignore other countries. So lets not pretend thats the case. China btw is a permanent member of the security council, so it can provide cover for itself.
The US does this for Israel all the time as well. So Israel has its friends in the UN.
Israel is brought up a lot as the UN is partially responsible for the mess there.munchester29 wrote: »Like someone said earlier in the thread - you can start comparing the two only after (or while) millions of Palestinians are dead because of Israel, and to me it's just an empty slogan typical to... you guessed it... Palestinian propaganda.
Israel, aren't like the Nazi's. I agree with you on that much.
They are a apartheid state, so more apt comparison would be apartheid South Africa. Oh and they were best buddies with apartheid South Africa:
Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria
You know what they say about birds of a fellow.munchester29 wrote: »Well, what can I say about that?
The clear aggressor from day one - well, you must mean the 6 or 7 Arab countries who attacked Israel in 1948 after a UN resolution giving the Jews a state (by the way - the same UN who had those wonderful resolutions you supported in your earlier comment... funny how some resolutions are ok, and some aren't).
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
The book details Israel deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (by Zionists who founded Israel), for the crime of being the wrong race.munchester29 wrote: »Also, I never heard a story that didn't have two sides to it. Just to give you an example - I'm sure you are familiar with the refugee problem. I'm sure you are convinced that the Palestinian refugees are another evidence of the cruelty of Israel, and that you support the right of return and all that. Well I have another side of the story for you, maybe you will learn something this time - that there were actually more Jewish refugees than Palestinian, and that the loss in assets was much more severe on the Jewish side. Here is the link:
http://www.jcpa.org/JCPA/Templates/ShowPage.asp?DRIT=3&DBID=1&LNGID=1&TMID=111&FID=253&PID=0&IID=2091&TTL=The_Palestinian_Refugee_Issue:__Rhetoric_vs._Reality
How is this the fault of the Palestinians? Why should the actions of other Arab nations impact on the Palestinian right to return? Israel denies to this day, that they cleansed the Palestinians at all. There is no reason the Palestinian should not return other than simple racism. The Palestinians should not be punished for the crimes of others and they have every right to return.
A very poor defense of Israel racist stand on Palestinians right to return.munchester29 wrote: »I do know that Israel left Gaza. Israel allowed a Palestinian government to rule there. The only thing it got in return was rockets on its cities, and attacks on it's soldiers which could have been stopped more easily if Israel stayed in Gaza.
They grabbed more land in the West Bank to make up for the land they gave back pretty quick. Israel gave them nothing at all.
People always leave out the land grab in the West Bank for some reason.munchester29 wrote: »Look at the west bank where Hamas doesn't rule - hardly any violence there.
Israel follows a simple rule - if we they are attacked, they attack back, and I think it is only natural.
Israel launches raids on the West Bank all the time. Life in the West Bank is better than Gaze, but hardly what any one would call comfortable, what with the apartheid wall and all those checkpoints choking the Palestinians economy and the expansionist colonies. Strange you don't mention those.
Oh and the Palestinians would say they same thing, if there attacked they attack back. Same old excuse by both for there continued cycle of violence.munchester29 wrote: »What I see, is that Israel is at least trying to achieve peace, and is holding back from using its full force against Hamas.
Israel is still expanding settlements and violating there side of agreements. They attack Palestinians any time they want. They have racist laws, an apartheid wall, Jewish only roads etc. I could go on, but I think my point has been made. So this claim is ridiculous.munchester29 wrote: »I also see that Hamas are firing rockets on Israeli cities on a daily basis.
I agree indefensible. Kinda like the collective punishment of the people of Gaza.munchester29 wrote: »I also see that the Palestinians are killing their own people.
Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
Israel did a great job getting the Palestinians to kill each other. Sad that they fell for it and haven't sorted out things.munchester29 wrote: »I also see that the funds given to the Palestinians by the UN/world are used to propagate war, instead of improving people's lives.
Israel's apartheid wall, and check points make development impossible.munchester29 wrote: »I also see, that in Palestinian text books, children are taught to become suicide bombers and to hate their Israeli neighbours.
In agreement, completely wrong.munchester29 wrote: »I also see how Palestinians use their children as shields when firing at Israeli forces and cities.
Some terrorist groups hide among the civilians populace and this is of course wrong. However, not all Palestinians do this.munchester29 wrote: »I also see how Palestinians dance in the streets whenever there is a mega terror even against western countries.
The US gives about 6 billion dollars a year to Israel to brutalize Palestinians. While there is no excuse for dancing in the streets like they did, there is no excuse for funding an apartheid state like Israel, which is worse than the Palestinians dancing in the street.
I can't blame them for hating the West, since the West has no problem funding there brutalization and dispossession. Perhaps the West should put an end to funding/favorable trade terms with Apartheid Israel.munchester29 wrote: »I see many other things, but I'm just tired of typing.
I see plenty of crap Israel and there allies pull as well. Its absolutely repugnant that so many Western states fund/ have favorable trade with Israel. Its an apartheid state and should be treated as such.0 -
If someone attacked you and you had to defend yourself .. would you call that aggressive action on both sides? If someone broke into your house, killed your friends and family and continued to live there ... would you be upset? Would you be happy with the title of 'aggressor' if you tried to do something about it.”I did answer your question .. you just didnt realize I did. If someone attacked you and you had to defend yourself .. would you call that aggressive action on both sides? If someone broke into your house, killed your friends and family and continued to live there ... would you be upset? Would you be happy with the title of 'aggressor' if you tried to do something about it.
Israel .. and this is aimed at Munchester too .. is a terrorist and apartheid state that should never have been allowed come into existence. Why does there have to 2 states? Because Israeli's wont accept the majority rule of the arab muslim population in the region of Palestine. There should be one state .. one state where everybody has an equal vote. If the Israeli's/Zionist Jews did not like that then they should have found somewhere else to live. Why did the Palestinians have to suffer the fallout from a European war? Why did they have to be displaced from their lands and suffer an unending cycle of tragedies since then? Can someone please out of all the Israel apologists we have on here answer me that simple question?
Munchester .. its nice to see your history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict starts in 1948. Mine starts at the turn of the century with the emergence of the Zionist Ideology which is to blame for this whole mess.
Israeli's/Zionist Jews had NO legitemate claim to those lands. They cheated, bribed, lobbied, bullied and manipulated until they got a Jewish state. Then they have the arrogance to claim the title of victim when the surrounding countries attack them. Apologists like yourself make me sick to the core with your bull**** excuses for Israel. At least admit that the creation of the state of Israel in someone elses lands was a disgrace ..
But now we have to put up with it because it doesnt look like its going anywhere. So what are the solutions? A two state solution? Well ask Israel to stop expanding into the West Bank and breaking every god damn Un resolution. How about a one state solution? Why doesnt Israel fancy that one? Not big fans of democracy are they? No .. they want their own little country where they make the rules .. and if they have to steal it, kill for it and oppress an entire population to get it then so be it .. thats what they do .. and then they will spin that propoganda machine and spend lots of money lobbying in the US to make simple people in this world think that they are the victims. What a fckin Joke
Don’t you think it works both ways? If someone kept trying to blow up your buses, if someone kept firing rockets at your cities, if someone kept murdering your people, would you be upset?
“Israeli's wont accept the majority rule of the arab muslim population in the region of Palestine.”
What you are describing is called religious oppression. Besides, it’s not like any of the surrounding Arab countries have anything to be proud about – they are not democratic, and most of the citizens there suffer from the government rule. Like it or not, Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the middle east, and what the Israelis achieved in 60 years compared to the rest of the region is remarkable.
“Why did the Palestinians have to suffer the fallout from a European war? Why did they have to be displaced from their lands and suffer an unending cycle of tragedies since then? Can someone please out of all the Israel apologists we have on here answer me that simple question? “
Now, you are just showing that you don’t even want to learn. If you would have just clicked on the link I supplied earlier, and if you would have read the article, then the answer would be obvious – the Jews actually suffered more than the Palestinians. Period. Read the article and do the math. The Palestinians suffer an unending cycle of tragedies since then, simply because they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity (for peace).
“Munchester .. its nice to see your history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict starts in 1948. Mine starts at the turn of the century with the emergence of the Zionist Ideology which is to blame for this whole mess.”
Like it or not, up until 1948 Jews and Arabs actually managed to remain civil to each other most of the time. And even back then, when peace was broken – it was usually because of Arab raiding parties that attacked Jewish settlements. By the way, the Palestinian entity or concept was only introduced to the world after 1948 (or even 1967 – I’m not sure) – there were no Palestinian nation before that. Just read commentaries written by travellers such as Mark Twain who travelled in the country, and you will learn some more.
In addition, before 1948 all the Jews did was buy massive amounts of land from the owners (Arabs in most cases), and settled them to work the land. They usually paid much more than the land was worth – and that is documented. So, yes 1948 was definitely a start point to the conflict.
“Then they have the arrogance to claim the title of victim when the surrounding countries attack them”
Are you serious? Read again what you have written, your logic is, well, interesting to say the least. And by the way – Israelis do not see themselves as victims; they see themselves as a nation that is fighting for its life amongst multitudes of Muslim countries intent on the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians however, never cease to present themselves as victims. I wouldn’t be surprised if one day a Palestinian terrorist would try to blow up a bus, blow his own leg instead, and complain to the world about the cruel Israeli state which caused him to lose his leg.
“How about a one state solution? Why doesnt Israel fancy that one? Not big fans of democracy are they?”
Have you ever seen an Arab democracy? In the middle east? Where exactly?
“load of crap .. UN is bad .. Palestinian propoganda blah blah blah. Im an anti-semite I suppose too. Whats your reasons for defending Israel? Saw it in the news one day and thought that you had help us all understand what a good place it is .. Have you ever been to the Region?”
Why don’t you answer to the point, and why are you so obviously trying to ignore the refugee question which I raised earlier? How come whenever you can’t answer something, or whenever you are faced with facts instead of fiction or propaganda, you revert to ranting?
How would you like it if I replied in the same manner as you - Load of crap… Israel Bad… Palestinians are angels… blah blah blah?
But I won’t, so:
To be an anti-Semite you would have to hate Arabs too, so, no – you are not anti Semite. You are probably Palestinian or from Palestinian decent.
Why do I care – I don’t know, but I care. The same way I care about the situation in Dafur, Tibet, China, etc. The same way I care about dolphins and the whales and the fat that we are ruining the planet.
And yes – I have been to Israel. I’ve been to Jerusalem & Tel-Aviv, I have also been to Gaza and Hebron and Ramallah. Have you ever been to the region?
I have also been to South Africa during the apartheid regime, so trust me – Israel is not an apartheid state. There are Arab members of government among other things; problem is, as in many other areas, they are usually too busy complaining to be actually working to benefit their sector.
The rest of what you said is not really comment worthy since again you revert to your conspiracy theories. And, seriously, if all you have to say is “blah blah blah” when people make a point, why do you bother writing here?
In any case – I think I’ve said enough.0 -
Israel/Gaza Strip: Rockets and Shelling Violate Laws of War
Typical straw man. Human right organizations do condemn both sides. The example above is just one.
You accusation that they don't condemn Palestinians is ridiculous. They condemn everyone.
No one is denying these take place.
Hardly excuses Israel now does it? Also, the situation the Palestinians find themselves in is hardly helpful.
So? The security council is stacked with Israel buddies who provide them cover.
The UN doesn't ignore other countries. So lets not pretend thats the case. China btw is a permanent member of the security council, so it can provide cover for itself.
The US does this for Israel all the time as well. So Israel has its friends in the UN.
Israel is brought up a lot as the UN is partially responsible for the mess there.
Israel, aren't like the Nazi's. I agree with you on that much.
They are a apartheid state, so more apt comparison would be apartheid South Africa. Oh and they were best buddies with apartheid South Africa:
Brothers in arms - Israel's secret pact with Pretoria
You know what they say about birds of a fellow.
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine by Ilan Pappe
The book details Israel deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (by Zionists who founded Israel), for the crime of being the wrong race.
How is this the fault of the Palestinians? Why should the actions of other Arab nations impact on the Palestinian right to return? Israel denies to this day, that they cleansed the Palestinians at all. There is no reason the Palestinian should not return other than simple racism. The Palestinians should not be punished for the crimes of others and they have every right to return.
A very poor defense of Israel racist stand on Palestinians right to return.
They grabbed more land in the West Bank to make up for the land they gave back pretty quick. Israel gave them nothing at all.
People always leave out the land grab in the West Bank for some reason.
Israel launches raids on the West Bank all the time. Life in the West Bank is better than Gaze, but hardly what any one would call comfortable, what with the apartheid wall and all those checkpoints choking the Palestinians economy and the expansionist colonies. Strange you don't mention those.
Oh and the Palestinians would say they same thing, if there attacked they attack back. Same old excuse by both for there continued cycle of violence.
Israel is still expanding settlements and violating there side of agreements. They attack Palestinians any time they want. They have racist laws, an apartheid wall, Jewish only roads etc. I could go on, but I think my point has been made. So this claim is ridiculous.
I agree indefensible. Kinda like the collective punishment of the people of Gaza.
Hamas is a Creation of Mossad
Israel did a great job getting the Palestinians to kill each other. Sad that they fell for it and haven't sorted out things.
Israel's apartheid wall, and check points make development impossible.
In agreement, completely wrong.
Some terrorist groups hide among the civilians populace and this is of course wrong. However, not all Palestinians do this.
The US gives about 6 billion dollars a year to Israel to brutalize Palestinians. While there is no excuse for dancing in the streets like they did, there is no excuse for funding an apartheid state like Israel, which is worse than the Palestinians dancing in the street.
I can't blame them for hating the West, since the West has no problem funding there brutalization and dispossession. Perhaps the West should put an end to funding/favorable trade terms with Apartheid Israel.
I see plenty of crap Israel and there allies pull as well. Its absolutely repugnant that so many Western states fund/ have favorable trade with Israel. Its an apartheid state and should be treated as such.
First of all - it's nice to see someone who can look at both sides of the coin. Playboy was a bit one sided I think, and my responses and comments were made more to show the other point of view than to justify any one side.
As for your comments:
“Typical straw man. Human right organizations do condemn both sides. The example above is just one.
You accusation that they don't condemn Palestinians is ridiculous. They condemn everyone.”
True, but in my opinion they tend to condemn Israel much more than they condemn the Palestinians. From reading the newspapers and watching TV, that’s the impression I’m getting. Even the link that you attached – even though both sides are condemned, the average Joe who just reads the headlines and moves on to the comics section just sees “Rockets and shelling violate laws of war” which is basically condemnation of Israel.
“Hardly excuses Israel now does it? Also, the situation the Palestinians find themselves in is hardly helpful.”
You are absolutely correct on this point. The average Palestinian lives a very hard life. But that is also never an excuse to anything, only a mitigating fact.
“So? The security council is stacked with Israel buddies who provide them cover.”
True to some degree – I think it’s more the fact that the US has a lot of power in the Security Council more than stacks of Israel buddies. If you ask me personally, I think that the UN as a whole has lost much respect in the last decade, and I doubt it will ever gain it back.
“The UN doesn't ignore other countries. So lets not pretend thats the case. China btw is a permanent member of the security council, so it can provide cover for itself.
The US does this for Israel all the time as well. So Israel has its friends in the UN.
Israel is brought up a lot as the UN is partially responsible for the mess there.”
I think that the amount of time the UN spends discussing Israel and the Palestinians compared to the time and effort spent on issues such as the genocide in Darfur, or human rights in China is suspicious. Even Kofi Annan criticized the human rights & security councils at the time for that reason, and he was never known as a big Israel supporter.
“They are a apartheid state, so more apt comparison would be apartheid South Africa. Oh and they were best buddies with apartheid South Africa:”
Since Israeli Arabs have the right to vote, and have representatives in the Israeli government, I don’t think it is an apartheid state. I think there is a lot of fear and suspicion towards the Arabs, but taking the long conflict into account – that’s understandable.
I thin Israel has a lot to improve on in regard to its treatment of the Israeli Arabs, but that’s a long way from an apartheid state. I was in South Africa at the time of apartheid (close to the end of it), and I was in Israel also – trust me on this – a whole different world.
In addition Israel was best buddies with SA, just because SA bought weapons and Israeli military training from Israel. Israel did the same with Iran at the time; I don’t think that a best buddy is the right word here. More like business partners.
“The book details Israel deliberate policy of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (by Zionists who founded Israel), for the crime of being the wrong race”
Ilan Pappe is an extremist. Some of the details in his books and lectures are true, some are exaggerations, and some are fiction. To go by his word is the same as going by the word of any other extremist – unwise. And the fact of the matter – there are still millions of Arabs in Israel and in the occupied territories & Gaza, so I guess that the ethnic cleansing didn’t work out too well.
By the way – the same could be said about the Arab/Palestinian intentions toward Israel – they wanted to destroy Israel and kill or expel all the Jews from it, so looks like both sides had the same intentions and both failed.
“How is this the fault of the Palestinians? Why should the actions of other Arab nations impact on the Palestinian right to return? Israel denies to this day, that they cleansed the Palestinians at all. There is no reason the Palestinian should not return other than simple racism. The Palestinians should not be punished for the crimes of others and they have every right to return.
A very poor defense of Israel racist stand on Palestinians right to return.”
Have you read the article?
Well, let me ask you this: would Jews who lost all their possessions in Arab countries will be allowed to return to their Arab homelands and get all they lost back?
The article clearly shows that there were more Jewish refugees than Palestinian refugees, and that the Jewish refugees lost much more in assets.
So, will their descendents be allowed to return and claim all they lost?
And regardless, do you really think something like that is even possible? Where will they return to? How will anyone be able to prove his claim?
In my opinion the right of return issue is one of the major obstacles to achieving peace. I don’t think it’s something that can be done, it’s simply not realistic.
“They grabbed more land in the West Bank to make up for the land they gave back pretty quick. Israel gave them nothing at all.
People always leave out the land grab in the West Bank for some reason.”
I haven’t heard of any significant land grabbing in the west bank, so I don’t know. I think I would have heard the Palestinian complaints by now, but I must have missed it.
Still, saying they gave nothing at all is not true. Israel gave the Palestinians self rule, and the Palestinians in Gaza managed to miss another opportunity here.
“Israel launches raids on the West Bank all the time. Life in the West Bank is better than Gaze, but hardly what any one would call comfortable, what with the apartheid wall and all those checkpoints choking the Palestinians economy and the expansionist colonies. Strange you don't mention those.
Oh and the Palestinians would say they same thing, if there attacked they attack back. Same old excuse by both for there continued cycle of violence.”
The wall is a stupid thing. It might stop the walking terrorist from getting to Israel, but as all can see – it doesn’t stop rockets, and it just doesn’t look good in the media. Israel shot itself in the leg here. Desperation, I guess. And don’t get me started about the settlers…
And I agree, Israel & the Palestinians are stuck in a vicious cycle, but again – I think that Israel is actually trying, while I can’t say the same about the Palestinians. Remember that Israel supplies food stuffs, oil, gas & electricity to Gaza – have you ever heard of anyone helping their enemies? Trying to make life a little better for the civilian population?
And what do the Palestinians do? they stage an attack on that area, that’s plain stupid!
Well, I do have a life and better things to do, so in summation:
I think there are no saints & devils in this conflict. I think that both the Palestinians & Israelis in general (the average citizen) want nothing more than peace. I think both people are suffering because of corrupt leadership, an impotent UN, and oil, let’s not forget oil…
Too bad that the more time passes, the only ones who get stronger are the extremists on both sides.0 -
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cabinteelytom wrote: »Well, earlier today, three Israeli soldiers lost their lives making an incursion into Gaza, and outraged Israeli forces then went on a binge of carnage; killing five children from one family, a 67 year old man, a Reuter's cameraman, and two youths who were walking past him.(bbc.co.uk).
I don't know about the first two instances, but after watching the video footage from the cameraman and the aftermath, I really can't blame the tankers for shooting. That wasn't a case of "I'm in a bloodlust, I'm going to kill the next person I see", it was a response to a perceived threat. I certainly won't say I wouldn't have done the same.
NTM0 -
munchester29 wrote: »First of all - it's nice to see someone who can look at both sides of the coin. Playboy was a bit one sided I think, and my responses and comments were made more to show the other point of view than to justify any one side.
Thanks.munchester29 wrote: »True, but in my opinion they tend to condemn Israel much more than they condemn the Palestinians. From reading the newspapers and watching TV, that’s the impression I’m getting. Even the link that you attached – even though both sides are condemned, the average Joe who just reads the headlines and moves on to the comics section just sees “Rockets and shelling violate laws of war” which is basically condemnation of Israel.
Well, I have ti disagree there. I see plenty of condemnation of Hamas etc. You can look at the various Human Rights web sites and you will see reports on Saudia Arabia, Iran, and other nations.
They don't pick on Israel from what I have seen.munchester29 wrote: »You are absolutely correct on this point. The average Palestinian lives a very hard life. But that is also never an excuse to anything, only a mitigating fact.
Agreed.munchester29 wrote: »True to some degree – I think it’s more the fact that the US has a lot of power in the Security Council more than stacks of Israel buddies. If you ask me personally, I think that the UN as a whole has lost much respect in the last decade, and I doubt it will ever gain it back.
The language I used was inexact. Still the US and UK are powerful members of the security council and often help Israel out in the UN.
I agree with you on the UN. Especially after the effect sanctions had on Iraq.munchester29 wrote: »I think that the amount of time the UN spends discussing Israel and the Palestinians compared to the time and effort spent on issues such as the genocide in Darfur, or human rights in China is suspicious. Even Kofi Annan criticized the human rights & security councils at the time for that reason, and he was never known as a big Israel supporter.
Well the Israel/Palestine issue is of huge interest to a lot of countries. Arab and Muslim nations will always bring up the issue, then the US/UK does much the same. The UN is a reflection of its members, and quite a few have interest in the issue.
As I mentioned earlier, there is also the fact that the mess is at least partially the fault of the UN.munchester29 wrote: »Since Israeli Arabs have the right to vote, and have representatives in the Israeli government, I don’t think it is an apartheid state. I think there is a lot of fear and suspicion towards the Arabs, but taking the long conflict into account – that’s understandable.
Jews in the West Bank can vote. Palestinians there can't vote. They get to vote for a glorified local council.
Israeli Arabs are hardly equal citizens, there are several racist laws that target them for example, Israel's Marriage Ban Closes The Gates To Palestinians.
Then there is a JNF (Jewish National Fund), an organization that bear responsibility for the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, and discriminates against Israel Arabs. Here is a link to a Comment is Free (from the Guardian Website) article on the JNF:
Israel's royal welcomemunchester29 wrote: »I thin Israel has a lot to improve on in regard to its treatment of the Israeli Arabs, but that’s a long way from an apartheid state. I was in South Africa at the time of apartheid (close to the end of it), and I was in Israel also – trust me on this – a whole different world.
Tutu condemns Israeli 'apartheid'
Nothing against you, but I am gonna trust Bishop Desmond Tutu's opinion on this. Then there is a recent book by Jimmy Carter, which is one of the main reasons he had such a cold reception there. I guess the truth does that some times.munchester29 wrote: »In addition Israel was best buddies with SA, just because SA bought weapons and Israeli military training from Israel. Israel did the same with Iran at the time; I don’t think that a best buddy is the right word here. More like business partners.
Israel was one of the few nations who still had relations with apartheid South Africa, after every other nation stopped supporting them.
Iran Contra (i assume this is whats your referring), was at the behest of the Americans. So of course they did as they were told.munchester29 wrote: »Ilan Pappe is an extremist. Some of the details in his books and lectures are true, some are exaggerations, and some are fiction. To go by his word is the same as going by the word of any other extremist – unwise. And the fact of the matter – there are still millions of Arabs in Israel and in the occupied territories & Gaza, so I guess that the ethnic cleansing didn’t work out too well.
Pappe is not extremists. He is most certainly right imho.
There is a country called Israel that has a Jewish majority, sounds like a success. Also plenty of refugee's in Gaza and the West Bank, so saying there are Palestinians there doesn't help your case, in fact it shows that Israel successfully created a artificial Jewish majority, while driving the Palestinians out of the majority of what was once Palestine.
There are far more Palestinians outside of what was once Palestine than inside it. They did a very good job and they managed to get away with it and convince a lot of people it never happened.munchester29 wrote: »By the way – the same could be said about the Arab/Palestinian intentions toward Israel – they wanted to destroy Israel and kill or expel all the Jews from it, so looks like both sides had the same intentions and both failed.
The Israeli's actually got what they want. A Jewish majority at the expense of the existing Palestinians populace. The simple fact remains the Zionists caused the conflict by trying to set up a country where another group was already living.
Simply put the Israeli's did ethicaly cleanse the Palestinians. The Palestinians were fighting what they saw as a European invasion, which was mostly true as most Zionists came from Europe. The claim (the Zionists) to Palestine, is that some of there ancestor lived there over a 1000 years ago, or that God gave it to them.
If I were to go by Zionists logic, then I have every right to get an army together and conquer Iran, Afghanistan and parts of India (i have ancestors from those places). Do you think these countries wouldn't try to kill me, if I tried to take there countries away from them?munchester29 wrote: »Have you read the article?
Well, let me ask you this: would Jews who lost all their possessions in Arab countries will be allowed to return to their Arab homelands and get all they lost back?
They should be allowed to return and be compensated for any lost possessions. Still, I see no bearing on Israel racism toward Palestinians who they drove out.munchester29 wrote: »The article clearly shows that there were more Jewish refugees than Palestinian refugees, and that the Jewish refugees lost much more in assets.
So, will their descendents be allowed to return and claim all they lost?
And regardless, do you really think something like that is even possible? Where will they return to? How will anyone be able to prove his claim?
In my opinion the right of return issue is one of the major obstacles to achieving peace. I don’t think it’s something that can be done, it’s simply not realistic.
Sorry, this has nothing to do with the Palestinians at all. What happened to Jews who were ethnically cleansed was terrible and Arab nations should offer them a right to return and compensation for anything they lost.
Still, this doesn't change the Palestinians right to return. Israel's reason for not allowing them to return is racism pure and simple. They drove them out to create a Jewish majority and won't let them return to maintain it. I think Israel racism caused the refugee issue in the first place and that there racism is more of a problem than Palestinians wanting to return home.
At the end of the day if a Jew can return after a 1000 years, I think Palestinians wanting to return after 60 is a hell of a lot more reasonable.munchester29 wrote: »I haven’t heard of any significant land grabbing in the west bank, so I don’t know. I think I would have heard the Palestinian complaints by now, but I must have missed it.
Still, saying they gave nothing at all is not true. Israel gave the Palestinians self rule, and the Palestinians in Gaza managed to miss another opportunity here.
The Palestinians were not given anything. The land was theres, it was given back to them. A thief returning something to its rightful owner give them nothing. Then the same thief stealing more.
Israel expands settlement growth
Israel to expand settlement
Israel settlement plan angers US
Israel expands settlements in blow to peace process
Abbas: Israel guilty of ethnic cleansing
Just a few examples.
Self rule which was undermined at every opportunity and a self rule that was more akin to the power of a local council. At the end of the day, the Palestinians are one people, and taking more land in the West Bank, showed Israel was never interested in a Palestinian state, but quit Gaza, as it was far too heavily populated to be of much to them for land.munchester29 wrote: »The wall is a stupid thing. It might stop the walking terrorist from getting to Israel, but as all can see – it doesn’t stop rockets, and it just doesn’t look good in the media. Israel shot itself in the leg here. Desperation, I guess. And don’t get me started about the settlers…
It was a land grab pure and simple imo.munchester29 wrote: »And I agree, Israel & the Palestinians are stuck in a vicious cycle, but again – I think that Israel is actually trying, while I can’t say the same about the Palestinians. Remember that Israel supplies food stuffs, oil, gas & electricity to Gaza – have you ever heard of anyone helping their enemies? Trying to make life a little better for the civilian population?
And what do the Palestinians do? they stage an attack on that area, that’s plain stupid!
The Israeli's have starved the entire population, when it suits them. Gaza is a prison and there just feeding the inmates, and if Palestinians started dieing of hunger, support for Israel in the West would disappear over night. The Israeli's are smart enough to not piss off the West too much.munchester29 wrote: »Well, I do have a life and better things to do, so in summation:
I think there are no saints & devils in this conflict. I think that both the Palestinians & Israelis in general (the average citizen) want nothing more than peace. I think both people are suffering because of corrupt leadership, an impotent UN, and oil, let’s not forget oil…
Too bad that the more time passes, the only ones who get stronger are the extremists on both sides.
I pretty much agree with you there, but the devil is as they say in the details.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »If someone attacked you and you had to defend yourself .. would you call that aggressive action on both sides? If someone broke into your house, killed your friends and family and continued to live there ... would you be upset? Would you be happy with the title of 'aggressor' if you tried to do something about it.”
Don’t you think it works both ways? If someone kept trying to blow up your buses, if someone kept firing rockets at your cities, if someone kept murdering your people, would you be upset?
“Israeli's wont accept the majority rule of the arab muslim population in the region of Palestine.”
What you are describing is called religious oppression. Besides, it’s not like any of the surrounding Arab countries have anything to be proud about – they are not democratic, and most of the citizens there suffer from the government rule. Like it or not, Israel is the closest thing to a democracy in the middle east, and what the Israelis achieved in 60 years compared to the rest of the region is remarkable.
“Why did the Palestinians have to suffer the fallout from a European war? Why did they have to be displaced from their lands and suffer an unending cycle of tragedies since then? Can someone please out of all the Israel apologists we have on here answer me that simple question? “
Now, you are just showing that you don’t even want to learn. If you would have just clicked on the link I supplied earlier, and if you would have read the article, then the answer would be obvious – the Jews actually suffered more than the Palestinians. Period. Read the article and do the math. The Palestinians suffer an unending cycle of tragedies since then, simply because they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity (for peace).
“Munchester .. its nice to see your history of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict starts in 1948. Mine starts at the turn of the century with the emergence of the Zionist Ideology which is to blame for this whole mess.”
Like it or not, up until 1948 Jews and Arabs actually managed to remain civil to each other most of the time. And even back then, when peace was broken – it was usually because of Arab raiding parties that attacked Jewish settlements. By the way, the Palestinian entity or concept was only introduced to the world after 1948 (or even 1967 – I’m not sure) – there were no Palestinian nation before that. Just read commentaries written by travellers such as Mark Twain who travelled in the country, and you will learn some more.
In addition, before 1948 all the Jews did was buy massive amounts of land from the owners (Arabs in most cases), and settled them to work the land. They usually paid much more than the land was worth – and that is documented. So, yes 1948 was definitely a start point to the conflict.
“Then they have the arrogance to claim the title of victim when the surrounding countries attack them”
Are you serious? Read again what you have written, your logic is, well, interesting to say the least. And by the way – Israelis do not see themselves as victims; they see themselves as a nation that is fighting for its life amongst multitudes of Muslim countries intent on the destruction of Israel. The Palestinians however, never cease to present themselves as victims. I wouldn’t be surprised if one day a Palestinian terrorist would try to blow up a bus, blow his own leg instead, and complain to the world about the cruel Israeli state which caused him to lose his leg.
“How about a one state solution? Why doesnt Israel fancy that one? Not big fans of democracy are they?”
Have you ever seen an Arab democracy? In the middle east? Where exactly?
“load of crap .. UN is bad .. Palestinian propoganda blah blah blah. Im an anti-semite I suppose too. Whats your reasons for defending Israel? Saw it in the news one day and thought that you had help us all understand what a good place it is .. Have you ever been to the Region?”
Why don’t you answer to the point, and why are you so obviously trying to ignore the refugee question which I raised earlier? How come whenever you can’t answer something, or whenever you are faced with facts instead of fiction or propaganda, you revert to ranting?
How would you like it if I replied in the same manner as you - Load of crap… Israel Bad… Palestinians are angels… blah blah blah?
But I won’t, so:
To be an anti-Semite you would have to hate Arabs too, so, no – you are not anti Semite. You are probably Palestinian or from Palestinian decent.
Why do I care – I don’t know, but I care. The same way I care about the situation in Dafur, Tibet, China, etc. The same way I care about dolphins and the whales and the fat that we are ruining the planet.
And yes – I have been to Israel. I’ve been to Jerusalem & Tel-Aviv, I have also been to Gaza and Hebron and Ramallah. Have you ever been to the region?
I have also been to South Africa during the apartheid regime, so trust me – Israel is not an apartheid state. There are Arab members of government among other things; problem is, as in many other areas, they are usually too busy complaining to be actually working to benefit their sector.
The rest of what you said is not really comment worthy since again you revert to your conspiracy theories. And, seriously, if all you have to say is “blah blah blah” when people make a point, why do you bother writing here?
In any case – I think I’ve said enough.
Look you can try and spin it any way you want but Zionism was a calculated effort by european jews to set up 'state' or a 'homeland' in the region of Palestine. The problem was the Palestine was home to an arab muslim population .. a people that the european jews did not want share a country with. So what did they do? There has been calcualted displacement and ethnic cleansing going on in the region since the turn of the century. The land that the jews bought was bought from wealthy Ottomans who didnt even own the land. Land ownership deeds were forged and the zionist jews were well aware of what they were doing. They were stealing the land out from underneath the feet of the poor native population by bribing the Ottomans. This was all occuring long before WWII .. along came WWII and what an excuse the zionists had to push for a independent state and of course they got it.
You can waffle all you want about how Palestine was not a country etc etc but that is horse****. Its like saying Ireland didnt exist as a country before we got the Republic .. its just a ridiculous technicality used to deflect attention from the real issues. The Palestinians should not have had to accept a seperate Israeli state .. why should they? Should they Irish have to accept it if the same thing happened here? You cant just immigrate to a country .. buy land illegally from under the feet of the native population and kick them off the land .. then set up your own country because you dont want to share power with them in a democracy or any other form of government. I couldnt care less if you pull out some document from a jewish website alleging that Jews suffered more in then 1948 war than the Palestinains did .. So what? They are a people who deliberately displaced the native population in order to set up their own country? Should they not suffer more? Am I expected to feel sorry for them .. oh the injustice of it all. What do you think the Israeli/Zionist Jews expected to happen?
Israelis has made a 'remarkable' progression in the last 60 years because it is fat off the billions that the US have given to it in aid. Do you expect me to be impressed?0 -
Look you can try and spin it any way you want but Zionism was a calculated effort by european jews to set up 'state' or a 'homeland' in the region of Palestine. The problem was the Palestine was home to an arab muslim population .. a people that the european jews did not want share a country with. So what did they do? There has been calcualted displacement and ethnic cleansing going on in the region since the turn of the century. The land that the jews bought was bought from wealthy Ottomans who didnt even own the land. Land ownership deeds were forged and the zionist jews were well aware of what they were doing. They were stealing the land out from underneath the feet of the poor native population by bribing the Ottomans. This was all occuring long before WWII .. along came WWII and what an excuse the zionists had to push for a independent state and of course they got it.
You can waffle all you want about how Palestine was not a country etc etc but that is horse****. Its like saying Ireland didnt exist as a country before we got the Republic .. its just a ridiculous technicality used to deflect attention from the real issues. The Palestinians should not have had to accept a seperate Israeli state .. why should they? Should they Irish have to accept it if the same thing happened here? You cant just immigrate to a country .. buy land illegally from under the feet of the native population and kick them off the land .. then set up your own country because you dont want to share power with them in a democracy or any other form of government. I couldnt care less if you pull out some document from a jewish website alleging that Jews suffered more in then 1948 war than the Palestinains did .. So what? They are a people who deliberately displaced the native population in order to set up their own country? Should they not suffer more? Am I expected to feel sorry for them .. oh the injustice of it all. What do you think the Israeli/Zionist Jews expected to happen?
Israelis has made a 'remarkable' progression in the last 60 years because it is fat off the billions that the US have given to it in aid. Do you expect me to be impressed?
Excellent post, very interesting.
The US and Israel are linked very closely, with the economic downfall of the US on the way lets hope that Isreal will also fail as a state and the native Palestinain people can return to their homeland. Evil can not be allowed to prosper.0 -
Excellent post, very interesting.
The US and Israel are linked very closely, with the economic downfall of the US on the way lets hope that Isreal will also fail as a state and the native Palestinain people can return to their homeland. Evil can not be allowed to prosper.
hmmm
you could easily substitute 'Ireland' for 'Israel' in the first clause of your post (obv. not militarily)
are you also hoping for our rapid economic disintegration?
also, I have to take real issue with your use of the word 'evil'0 -
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El Stuntman wrote: »hmmm
you could easily substitute 'Ireland' for 'Israel' in the first clause of your post (obv. not militarily)
are you also hoping for our rapid economic disintegration?
also, I have to take real issue with your use of the word 'evil'
Nonsence, the US doesnt give Ireland billions in 'aid' every year. We benefit from US companys that have setup here but there is a massive difference between the relationship economically between US/Isreal and US/Ireland.
No, Im hoping for our "rapid economic disintegration".
Well if you take over someone elses land and persecute their people then I would use the word 'evil'. I think its a great word to use in this situation.0 -
Nonsence, the US doesnt give Ireland billions in 'aid' every year. We benefit from US companys that have setup here but there is a massive difference between the relationship economically between US/Isreal and US/Ireland.
No, Im hoping for our "rapid economic disintegration".
US FDI was a massive factor in our recent economic growth, if that disappears, we are in serious doo-doo and yes, that means 'rapid economic disintegration'
so be careful what you wish for, it just might come trueWell if you take over someone elses land and persecute their people then I would use the word 'evil'. I think its a great word to use in this situation.
would you also use the word 'evil' to describe someone who walks into a crowded cafe and blows themselves up amongst innocent civilians? Would a government that sanctioned such tactics also be described as 'evil'?0 -
Look you can try and spin it any way you want but Zionism was a calculated effort by european jews to set up 'state' or a 'homeland' in the region of Palestine. The problem was the Palestine was home to an arab muslim population .. a people that the european jews did not want share a country with. So what did they do? There has been calcualted displacement and ethnic cleansing going on in the region since the turn of the century. The land that the jews bought was bought from wealthy Ottomans who didnt even own the land. Land ownership deeds were forged and the zionist jews were well aware of what they were doing. They were stealing the land out from underneath the feet of the poor native population by bribing the Ottomans. This was all occuring long before WWII .. along came WWII and what an excuse the zionists had to push for a independent state and of course they got it.
I'm not going to contradict your points, but to a certain extent, so what?
It's history, nothing can be undone, reciting it again and again only seeks to allocate blame. It reminds me of Serbs who argue that the wishes of 1.2 million Kosovar Albanians should be ignored because they only migrated into Kosovo in recent years. I would say that we can only deal with the here and now, and to keep harping back to how the situation came about doesn't solve anything, much like someone here still wringing their hands about the plantations in Ulster.
The fact is that there are X million Jews in that area. Most of them were not even around for preWWII Zionist expansion. But, and in fairness I'm not saying you were necessarily making this point, nothing is going to be undone now, and it wasn't going to be undone when Arab countries were attacking Israel.0 -
Deleted User wrote: »It's history, nothing can be undone, reciting it again and again only seeks to allocate blame. It reminds me of Serbs who argue that the wishes of 1.2 million Kosovar Albanians should be ignored because they only migrated into Kosovo in recent years. I would say that we can only deal with the here and now, and to keep harping back to how the situation came about doesn't solve anything, much like someone here still wringing their hands about the plantations in Ulster.
The history is important. Zionists try to create a false narrative of events. I think pointing out what actually happened is needed as most people simply don't know it happened at all. If you want to know why the current events are happening you need to know what got us to this point.Deleted User wrote: »The fact is that there are X million Jews in that area. Most of them were not even around for preWWII Zionist expansion. But, and in fairness I'm not saying you were necessarily making this point, nothing is going to be undone now, and it wasn't going to be undone when Arab countries were attacking Israel.
So? The Zionist state that was created due to the ethnic cleansing of Palestine is there and it (Israel) bears a responsibility due to this.
There is also another simple fact, that there are millions of Palestinians who have no where else to go. I have yet to see a decent reason for them not to go home. Israel reason's for not allowing it is very simply racist.
I know some people suggest they become citizens of the countries they are currently refugee's in. However, to use the example of Lebanon, Palestinians are mostly Sunni Muslims, adding a large Sunni Muslim population in Lebanon would change power dynamics of the country and would put Sunni Muslims in control and could lead to conflict with the Shia's and Christians who would be big losers in such a situations. So that resolution isn't a good one at all and ignores the desire of Palestinians to return home.
So the event of 1948 have a very real impact on millions of Palestinians. This make those event important even today, as they have a very real day to day impact on millions of lives.0 -
El Stuntman wrote: »US FDI was a massive factor in our recent economic growth, if that disappears, we are in serious doo-doo and yes, that means 'rapid economic disintegration'
so be careful what you wish for, it just might come true
It was a big factor, not a 'massive' factor. The housing boom and easy credit was the main reason.0 -
It was a big factor, not a 'massive' factor. The housing boom and easy credit was the main reason.
you're misinformed - you'll find that there were two separate and distinct phases to the Celtic Tiger. The first one was a export-led, productivity driven boom, fuelled by US FDI - ended approx 2001. The second was a domestic-led, cheap credit-driven boom where we went mental on cheap loans and selling property to each other without any regard for economic fundamentals. Phase 2 couldn't have happened without phase 1
again (recurring theme here), I note you didn't answer my questions0 -
I actually don't really care about the root of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict anymore. I think it’s pointless.
If you go back far enough in history, you will see that there are very few countries today that were not conquered by force of arms, where atrocities have not been committed, and where some ethnic/religious group hasn't suffered by the hands of another. The Jews were in Israel before the Palestinians (biblical times), and there were other people before the Israelis in Israel (pre-biblical times), and others before them, and it goes on and on till the beginning of time.
As for all the “ethnic cleansing” comments – as far as I know, there actually needs to be large number of non combatant dead people to qualify to be considered as “ethnic cleansing”. If you check the numbers of non combatant casualties I think you will find that “ethnic cleansing” is, well, let’s call it exaggeration. Even the UN human rights council never claimed that. Hell, as far as I know, even Arab countries don’t claim that. The only ones who claim that as far as I know are the Palestinians. Oh, almost forgot - and Ilan Pappe too. But as I’ve said before – extremists on both sides claim many things.
I think that we can agree that while you two (Wes & Playboy) are mainly adopting the Palestinian view point of the conflict, I am more inclined to accept the Israeli point of view.
I don't think there is a chance that any of us will ever convince the other, so although we could all come up with documentation to the points we raise, links to articles, convincing arguments to support our beliefs, inflammatory arguments, we can call each other names, we can condemn both sides of the conflict from here to eternity, etc. - at the end of it all - we share different beliefs on the subject, and we believe strongly enough not to concede to the other’s point of view.
The argument conducted in this thread is a very "soft" and amicable version of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - we don't attack each other with weapons, but we do it with words. We get angry with what the other side thinks, we throw the blame on the side we are against, and we tend to dehumanize & demonize our antagonists and our enemies (words like evil, racists, fanatics, ethnic-cleansing and others when describing whole populations, for example, as were used in this thread).
So how can we expect to see a peaceful resolution to the actual conflict in the Middle East? That is what troubles me the most.
I would love to see both people living together in peace and harmony, and I would love to see Israel, which is a beautiful country; a country which is sacred to Muslims, Jews & Christians, prosper without all the violence and bloodshed.
But how can this be achieved, when neither side takes responsibility for their shortcomings? When each side is 100% convinced in his beliefs and refuses to budge an inch?
How can it be achieved, when both sides stick to their nonnegotiable requirements that have to be met before peace talks can even begin?
Do any of you really think that this conflict will end well, with both parties to the conflict getting more and more stubborn and violent as time goes by?
And please, I know that between you both you hold the beliefs that Israel is the aggressor, Israel is to blame for everything, Israel is the root of all evil, etc. We covered that already, I don’t think there is any need to rehash these beliefs again. Let’s try to be realistic though, for a change?
In my humble opinion, if we strip the conflict of all the hate, mistrust and prejudices that were accumulated during the long years of fighting in that area, if we try to forget for a second, as impossible as it is, all the violence that both sides had to suffer from, if we stop competing in the "who suffered the most" and “who is the biggest aggressor” and “who is more just” and “who is more evil” departments, and try to actually look at what is stopping peace from being achieved, I think we are basically left with two major obstacles that will result in a never ending struggle between Israel and the Palestinians.
There is one point that each side insists on, one point where each side looks at the world in very unrealistic terms. I have no intention to start a discussion in regards to these two points, I think you will have no problem with the Israeli demand, and I’m sure you will have a gazillion reasons for why the Palestinian demand is correct and justified and what not – it doesn’t really matter. In the real world, both demands are simply not realistic, and will never be:
1. The Palestinian demand for the right of return.
Even if you forget the parallel rights and compensation that is due to the Jewish refugees from the surrounding Arab countries if the right of return is implemented, and I don’t think any of us really believes that any of the Arab countries would actually consent to the idea; The notion of the right to return is unrealistic simply because no country in the world can afford having millions of people immigrating to it. A country that allows that will collapse in a very short time. Just try to think what would happen if one day all the Irish immigrants who left for the US decide en masse to come back to Ireland… Would the Irish government agree to that and give them their full rights? What will happen to the country’s economy if they do? What will happen to the Irish people currently living in Ireland?
It just doesn’t matter if it is a justified demand or not, we can argue about it till our heads explode – it’s just not a realistic one.
2. The Israeli insistence on being defined and ruled as a Jewish state.
This IS a racist notion. A true democratic country is a country of ALL its people. Even though Israel is the most advanced country in the region as far as democracy and human rights are concerned, they still have a long way a head of them before I will actually define them as a true democratic state.
Also, realistically, simple demographics won’t allow it. In 30-50 years, there will be more Israeli Arabs in Israel, than Jews. In my opinion, if Israel doesn’t become a true democratic state, a state of ALL its people, including the Arabs, it will simply be swallowed by the Muslim masses around it eventually. Because Israeli Arabs have the right to vote, one day, when they are large enough in numbers, they will be able to actually gain control of the country through legal elections, and that will be the end of the Jewish state – the Jews will become a minority in their own country.
And even if that won’t happen for some reason, a country is not really democratic under such premises. If there are no equal rights to all in the country, there will never be real peace.
To me it is clear why these are the two most problematic issues in this conflict. I have no solution to either of those - if the UN had actual power to force both Israelis and Palestinians to give up on these unrealistic ideas and be more pragmatic, there might have been a chance for real peace. Unfortunately, the UN is powerless in this aspect, so I don't really see anything but more war, pain and suffering on both sides. The Palestinians, being the weaker side will continue to suffer the most.
I also have a strong feeling that the worst is yet to come.
This is my last post on the subject. I know from experience that when people are set in their beliefs, usually no amount of arguing will help to change their minds. I already spent too much time on this thread, and I’m too busy to do it on a regular basis.
Just a few last pieces of advice/comments for anyone interested, take it to heart if you want, ignore them if you don’t:
1. Keep educating yourselves on the issue. Do the same with other conflicts around the globe (Darfur, for example, is probably the worst conflict the world has seen in this decade). When you don’t limit yourselves to one conflict, you will be able to have a better perspective of the world.
2. Beware of people who see only one side to a story. Extremists and fanatics come in various disguises. They can look like respected man of faith; they can appear as intelligent coherent academics. There are ALWAYS two sides to every story when large groups of people are involved. Anyone saying otherwise is prejudiced or has an interest in the issue.
3. Read, read, and then read some more. Just be careful – when you educate yourself and read articles or books, or listen to lectures – make sure you know who you are learning from. EVERYONE today has an agenda or a prejudice even if sometimes they themselves are not aware of it.
4. If you can – go there. I know, we all like our vacations in Spain or Italy or France. But it wouldn’t kill you to actually go visit those places you feel so strongly about, at least once in your lifetime. In some cases I think you will be surprised by what you learn when it is first hand knowledge.
Peace out.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »I actually don't really care about the root of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict anymore. I think it’s pointless.
If you go back far enough in history, you will see that there are very few countries today that were not conquered by force of arms, where atrocities have not been committed, and where some ethnic/religious group hasn't suffered by the hands of another. The Jews were in Israel before the Palestinians (biblical times), and there were other people before the Israelis in Israel (pre-biblical times), and others before them, and it goes on and on till the beginning of time.
Whether you or I care about the root of the conflict doesn't matter. The people involved in the conflict do. Firstly the Israeli's don't like the truth so present a false narrative. The Palestinians have to live with the consequences on a daily basis.
The other events you mention don't have a direct effect on millions of lives. The events of 1948 and before that do have a direct effect on the lives of millions of Palestinians.munchester29 wrote: »As for all the “ethnic cleansing” comments – as far as I know, there actually needs to be large number of non combatant dead people to qualify to be considered as “ethnic cleansing”. If you check the numbers of non combatant casualties I think you will find that “ethnic cleansing” is, well, let’s call it exaggeration. Even the UN human rights council never claimed that. Hell, as far as I know, even Arab countries don’t claim that. The only ones who claim that as far as I know are the Palestinians. Oh, almost forgot - and Ilan Pappe too. But as I’ve said before – extremists on both sides claim many things.
Calling what happened in Palestine ethnic cleansing isn't extreme but the truth. Pappe is not an extremest, just someone telling the truth.
A deliberate policy to create a Jewish majority by the Zionists movement is ethnic cleansing. This isn't an extreme thing to say, just stating a fact.
The term ethnic cleansing btw, first came into use in the 90's. So it would hardly be used before that.munchester29 wrote: »I think that we can agree that while you two (Wes & Playboy) are mainly adopting the Palestinian view point of the conflict, I am more inclined to accept the Israeli point of view.
I am not adopting anyones side. Just stating the facts as I see and interpret them.munchester29 wrote: »I don't think there is a chance that any of us will ever convince the other, so although we could all come up with documentation to the points we raise, links to articles, convincing arguments to support our beliefs, inflammatory arguments, we can call each other names, we can condemn both sides of the conflict from here to eternity, etc. - at the end of it all - we share different beliefs on the subject, and we believe strongly enough not to concede to the other’s point of view.
Sorry, but some of the things I have seen you post were simply incorrect and hence why I posted here. Your comments on Human Rights organizations being the principal one.munchester29 wrote: »The argument conducted in this thread is a very "soft" and amicable version of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict - we don't attack each other with weapons, but we do it with words. We get angry with what the other side thinks, we throw the blame on the side we are against, and we tend to dehumanize & demonize our antagonists and our enemies (words like evil, racists, fanatics, ethnic-cleansing and others when describing whole populations, for example, as were used in this thread).
I am hardly demonizing all Israeli's or anything like that. I think the average Israeli or Palestinian isn't any different than me.
However, Zionist and Hamas deserve to called racists etc.munchester29 wrote: »So how can we expect to see a peaceful resolution to the actual conflict in the Middle East? That is what troubles me the most.
We won't see one anytime soon sadly and we here in the "West" aren't helping matters.munchester29 wrote: »I would love to see both people living together in peace and harmony, and I would love to see Israel, which is a beautiful country; a country which is sacred to Muslims, Jews & Christians, prosper without all the violence and bloodshed.
In agreement.munchester29 wrote: »But how can this be achieved, when neither side takes responsibility for their shortcomings? When each side is 100% convinced in his beliefs and refuses to budge an inch?
Incredibly difficult and will take a lot of work to sort, but its not impossible.munchester29 wrote: »How can it be achieved, when both sides stick to their nonnegotiable requirements that have to be met before peace talks can even begin?
Do any of you really think that this conflict will end well, with both parties to the conflict getting more and more stubborn and violent as time goes by?
It could end very badly or both side will wake up and figure out that the current situation is not sustainable.munchester29 wrote: »And please, I know that between you both you hold the beliefs that Israel is the aggressor, Israel is to blame for everything, Israel is the root of all evil, etc. We covered that already, I don’t think there is any need to rehash these beliefs again. Let’s try to be realistic though, for a change?
I never said they were evil. I also blame the Palestinians for the continuing violence, they didn't start it, but they certainly kept it going. So they are at fault for that.munchester29 wrote: »In my humble opinion, if we strip the conflict of all the hate, mistrust and prejudices that were accumulated during the long years of fighting in that area, if we try to forget for a second, as impossible as it is, all the violence that both sides had to suffer from, if we stop competing in the "who suffered the most" and “who is the biggest aggressor” and “who is more just” and “who is more evil” departments, and try to actually look at what is stopping peace from being achieved, I think we are basically left with two major obstacles that will result in a never ending struggle between Israel and the Palestinians.
Well, there are more than 2 obstacle at this point actually. The 2 state solution is basically dead now.munchester29 wrote: »1. The Palestinian demand for the right of return.
Even if you forget the parallel rights and compensation that is due to the Jewish refugees from the surrounding Arab countries if the right of return is implemented, and I don’t think any of us really believes that any of the Arab countries would actually consent to the idea; The notion of the right to return is unrealistic simply because no country in the world can afford having millions of people immigrating to it. A country that allows that will collapse in a very short time. Just try to think what would happen if one day all the Irish immigrants who left for the US decide en masse to come back to Ireland… Would the Irish government agree to that and give them their full rights? What will happen to the country’s economy if they do? What will happen to the Irish people currently living in Ireland?
It just doesn’t matter if it is a justified demand or not, we can argue about it till our heads explode – it’s just not a realistic one.
The Palestinians may have to give this up for peace, true. I still don' think them asking for it is unreasonable. Israel has absorbed millions of Jewish immigrants from poor Eastern Europe after the collapse of the Soviet Union and didn't collapse.
They are more than capable of taking in the Palestinians. They just don't want to due to there race. So this isn't the obstacle you thing it is, as Israel have shown themselves.
The problem is that they want a Jewish state and too many Palestinians will make this impossible.munchester29 wrote: »2. The Israeli insistence on being defined and ruled as a Jewish state.
This IS a racist notion. A true democratic country is a country of ALL its people. Even though Israel is the most advanced country in the region as far as democracy and human rights are concerned, they still have a long way a head of them before I will actually define them as a true democratic state.
Also, realistically, simple demographics won’t allow it. In 30-50 years, there will be more Israeli Arabs in Israel, than Jews. In my opinion, if Israel doesn’t become a true democratic state, a state of ALL its people, including the Arabs, it will simply be swallowed by the Muslim masses around it eventually. Because Israeli Arabs have the right to vote, one day, when they are large enough in numbers, they will be able to actually gain control of the country through legal elections, and that will be the end of the Jewish state – the Jews will become a minority in their own country.
And even if that won’t happen for some reason, a country is not really democratic under such premises. If there are no equal rights to all in the country, there will never be real peace.
True enough. Olmert has said as much himself.munchester29 wrote: »To me it is clear why these are the two most problematic issues in this conflict. I have no solution to either of those - if the UN had actual power to force both Israelis and Palestinians to give up on these unrealistic ideas and be more pragmatic, there might have been a chance for real peace. Unfortunately, the UN is powerless in this aspect, so I don't really see anything but more war, pain and suffering on both sides. The Palestinians, being the weaker side will continue to suffer the most.
I also have a strong feeling that the worst is yet to come.
In agreement.munchester29 wrote: »This is my last post on the subject. I know from experience that when people are set in their beliefs, usually no amount of arguing will help to change their minds. I already spent too much time on this thread, and I’m too busy to do it on a regular basis.
Fair enough. Good luck!munchester29 wrote: »Just a few last pieces of advice/comments for anyone interested, take it to heart if you want, ignore them if you don’t:
1. Keep educating yourselves on the issue. Do the same with other conflicts around the globe (Darfur, for example, is probably the worst conflict the world has seen in this decade). When you don’t limit yourselves to one conflict, you will be able to have a better perspective of the world.
I know plenty about Darfur. If someone came along and defended it. I would be doing the exact same thing.munchester29 wrote: »2. Beware of people who see only one side to a story. Extremists and fanatics come in various disguises. They can look like respected man of faith; they can appear as intelligent coherent academics. There are ALWAYS two sides to every story when large groups of people are involved. Anyone saying otherwise is prejudiced or has an interest in the issue.
I personally disagree with what you think an extremist is.munchester29 wrote: »3. Read, read, and then read some more. Just be careful – when you educate yourself and read articles or books, or listen to lectures – make sure you know who you are learning from. EVERYONE today has an agenda or a prejudice even if sometimes they themselves are not aware of it.
Certainly true and I think everyone here is aware of that.munchester29 wrote: »4. If you can – go there. I know, we all like our vacations in Spain or Italy or France. But it wouldn’t kill you to actually go visit those places you feel so strongly about, at least once in your lifetime. In some cases I think you will be surprised by what you learn when it is first hand knowledge.
I think going to Israel wouldn't be a pleasant experience, what with my name marking me out as a Muslim and all. Then there is the simple fact that I wouldn't want to give money to what I see as an apartheid regime. I also wouldn't go to Sudan as I wouldn't want to give that regime money either.munchester29 wrote: »Peace out.
Same to you.0 -
Of course there are 2 sides to every story. But just because there is two sides does not absolve one side from guilt. There were two sides to the story of WWII and the holocaust .. does that make the Nazi's any less guilty for the crimes they have commited? Everybody has a reason for doing what they do .. hence there being two sides to every story. However sometimes some peoples reasons or motivations do not stand up under moral scrutiny. Israel and Israeli's have to take responsibility for the crimes they have committed and attempt to make ammends for them by offering a sustainable and fair two-state agreement. Ignoring their past and pretending that they are they victims only exaserbates the problem.0
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There were two sides to the story of WWII and the holocaust .. does that make the Nazi's any less guilty for the crimes they have commited?
Jaysus, another person weighing in with a Nazi analogy.
To keep reaching for that one, while perhaps trying to be as offensive as possible to Israelis, also trivialises the attempt to exterminate a whole race and the actual deaths of 6,000,000. If you think the Israelis are trying to wipe out Arabs in the same manner, then it would seem by any stretch they are doing it veeeeerrrrrrrrrrry sloooooooooooowly.0 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Jaysus, another person weighing in with a Nazi analogy.
To keep reaching for that one, while perhaps trying to be as offensive as possible to Israelis, also trivialises the attempt to exterminate a whole race and the actual deaths of 6,000,000. If you think the Israelis are trying to wipe out Arabs in the same manner, then it would seem by any stretch they are doing it veeeeerrrrrrrrrrry sloooooooooooowly.
Well you would think that a people who suffered such a fate only 60 years earlier would have learned some lessons instead of perpetuating the same kind of facist and racist ideologies as the Nazi's. Zionsim is racist and verging on being a facist ideology .. The Nazi comparison is by far the most suitable here because even though they arent doing their extermination as overtly as the Nazi's .. they are still ethnic cleansing. Just like the Nazis wanted the Jews out of Germany/Europe .. the Israeli's want the Palestinians out Israel. Different methods but same goal.0 -
I'm no bleeding heart, but frankly I find the Nazi analogy just blatant anti-semitism. It's nasty and completely unnecessary. One can make perfectly valid points about Israel and their tyranny without resorting to that comparison.0
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Deleted User wrote: »I'm no bleeding heart, but frankly I find the Nazi analogy just blatant anti-semitism. It's nasty and completely unnecessary. One can make perfectly valid points about Israel and their tyranny without resorting to that comparison.
I don't understand your use of "anti-semitism". Are you using it the same way that US-based pro Israeli lobbyists use it to sling mud at those that call for justice in the Middle East?
Generally, I find people that sling 'anti-semite' around are surprised to learn that the Palestinians are also a Semite race - here's an article from 22 years ago...Jews constitute no more than 10 percent of the world's Semites. The overwhelming majority of Semites are Arabs.
So maybe you meant that the Nazi comparison is blatantly anti-Israeli? I would argue that it is quite apt.
Obviously the Israelis don't gas the Palestinians to death. But there are many similarities.
The Palestinians are ghettoised, forced to lived in crap areas. Obviously, it's hot and dry there - some say it's the main reason for the conflict - and the Israelis control all the resources such as water, power, supplies, even PERMISSION TO WORK.
By every definition this is collective punishment, and any time the Israelis are challenged about it they dodge the question about THEIR actions and use the Palestinian violence (which I disagree with, but understand) as some kind of answer.
I was in Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam a few months ago and just after leaving the Annexe there was a big photo of one of the concentration camps. I realised that the photo of the concentration camp reminded me of images of the Palestinian refugee camps that I had seen on TV.
Shufat Refugee camp, Palestine
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp
The other thing about the Holocaust is the way that ordinary Germans had a sense of what was going on with the Jews - admittedly they couldn't have know the scale of it unless they were working for the Gestapo or IBM - but they knew the something wrong was going on. For them to challenge it may have been suicide.
Today in American politics, it is also "suicide" to challenge the prevailing opinions about the Israel/Palestine situation. For us, it's safe to protest, discuss it online and convince each other. Make it political though - call your TD from time to time and leave a message for them asking them to get back to you and tell you what they're doing about it.
I firmly believe that the actions of the Israeli government are wrong and I think that I'm right. If anyone can convince me otherwise with some evidence I'd like to see it.
For now, here's another emotional image - a drawing by a child in Al Faraa refugee camp, showing their perspective.
For those that care enough to watch a short documentary about life in Israeli controlled territories, this is about ten minutes long. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.fullscreen&videoid=13804694300 -
I don't understand your use of "anti-semitism". Are you using it the same way that US-based pro Israeli lobbyists use it to sling mud at those that call for justice in the Middle East?
Generally, I find people that sling 'anti-semite' around are surprised to learn that the Palestinians are also a Semite race - here's an article from 22 years ago...
So maybe you meant that the Nazi comparison is blatantly anti-Israeli? I would argue that it is quite apt.
Obviously the Israelis don't gas the Palestinians to death. But there are many similarities.
The Palestinians are ghettoised, forced to lived in crap areas. Obviously, it's hot and dry there - some say it's the main reason for the conflict - and the Israelis control all the resources such as water, power, supplies, even PERMISSION TO WORK.
By every definition this is collective punishment, and any time the Israelis are challenged about it they dodge the question about THEIR actions and use the Palestinian violence (which I disagree with, but understand) as some kind of answer.
I was in Anne Frank's house in Amsterdam a few months ago and just after leaving the Annexe there was a big photo of one of the concentration camps. I realised that the photo of the concentration camp reminded me of images of the Palestinian refugee camps that I had seen on TV.Shufat Refugee camp, Palestine
Bergen-Belsen concentration camp
The other thing about the Holocaust is the way that ordinary Germans had a sense of what was going on with the Jews - admittedly they couldn't have know the scale of it unless they were working for the Gestapo or IBM - but they knew the something wrong was going on. For them to challenge it may have been suicide.
Today in American politics, it is also "suicide" to challenge the prevailing opinions about the Israel/Palestine situation. For us, it's safe to protest, discuss it online and convince each other. Make it political though - call your TD from time to time and leave a message for them asking them to get back to you and tell you what they're doing about it.
I firmly believe that the actions of the Israeli government are wrong and I think that I'm right. If anyone can convince me otherwise with some evidence I'd like to see it.
For now, here's another emotional image - a drawing by a child in Al Faraa refugee camp, showing their perspective.
For those that care enough to watch a short documentary about life in Israeli controlled territories, this is about ten minutes long. http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.fullscreen&videoid=1380469430
Comparing the Nazi death camps to the Palestinian refugee camps or cities and villages?
Have you ever seen a poor Arab village/city anywhere in the world? I think you would be surprised - they all look almost the same, and NONE of them look like Nazi concentration camps. The pictures you have added actually show the differences quite well - the Jews in the concentration camps did not have two story brick houses, for one.
This has nothing to do with Israel, it has a lot to do with being poor, uneducated and investing all your time, effort and money in fighting instead of in bettering your life.
I do not deny that the Palestinians are suffering, but I believe they can only blame themselves. Violence begets violence.
The main difference, the way I see it, is that the Israelis do not target women, children or any non combatants intentionally, while the Palestinians go out of their way to do just that.
To support this, I'll show a few emotional images too:
The bombed bus you see in the first picture had women & children in it, and it was targeted intentionally by a suicide bomber, and I don't really think that you can find any excuse for that. The other two pictures are of a few of the Israeli children, targeted and killed by suicide bombers and other "freedom fighters" purposefully and without mercy.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »This has nothing to do with Israel, it has a lot to do with being poor, uneducated and investing all your time, effort and money in fighting instead of in bettering your life.
How can they do that with all the checkpoints, apartheid wall, Jewish only roads etc? Lets not forget the world largest prison, also known as the Gaza strip.
World Bank urges Israel to ease Palestinian blockade
That the world bank saying that. Hardly people who can be called pro Palestinians or anything of the sort.munchester29 wrote: »I do not deny that the Palestinians are suffering, but I believe they can only blame themselves. Violence begets violence.
The Israeli's are largely responsible for Palestinians suffering. They fact so many live in refugee camps is due to Israel.
Also, one could say the same about Israel, since they stole someone else country and have only themselves to blame for the violence. Its very easy to make excuses for either sides violence. Btw, I don't agree with either sides violence.munchester29 wrote: »The main difference, the way I see it, is that the Israelis do not target women, children or any non combatants intentionally, while the Palestinians go out of their way to do just that.
Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army
Civilian Casualties in Lebanon during the 2006 War
Examples of Israel attacking civilians.
Its so strange that people repeat that Israel doesn't attack civilians despite so many examples of them doing exactly that.
**EDIT**
Human Right Watch also did a report on Hezbollahs attacks:
Hezbollah’s Rocket Attacks on Israel in the 2006 War
Just taught I would post that before accusations that Human Rights Watch pick on Israel.0 -
Firstly munchester29 - why did you bother to quote my whole post, it's long enough as it is.
Secondly, if you read my post that you quoted instead of just following your instincts you'll see that I am against Palestinians being violent towards anyone - suicide bombing is wrong, as is any other type of bombing in my idealistic worldview.
In my post above, I commented on how most pro-Israelis were unable to engage in a discussion about the actions of the Israeli state without immediately referencing Palestinian violence. You did exactly that. Did you even notice?
Thanks to Wes for showing the other areas of your post where you were completely wrong, most notably IDF vs civillians.I do not deny that the Palestinians are suffering, but I believe they can only blame themselves.
Well, you're a bit blinkered then. Here is a report into the health of Palestinian children.Young people constitute 46% of the population in the West Bank of Israel and 48% in the Gaza Strip with a rate of growth of 3.1% and 3.4%, respectively. Their living conditions are characterized by lack of sanitation, shortage of water (especially in comparison to Israel proper), unemployment, curfews and closing of schools during tense periods by the military authorities as collective punishment for incidents. Since 1967, Israel has controlled and administered the health care service in these territories.
Perhaps you could explain how those children are to blame for their living conditions?
Two story houses indeed.0 -
munchester29 wrote: »I would love to see both people living together in peace and harmony, and I would love to see Israel, which is a beautiful country; a country which is sacred to Muslims, Jews & Christians, prosper without all the violence and bloodshed.
I agree with you completely about that idyllic future.But how can this be achieved, when neither side takes responsibility for their shortcomings? When each side is 100% convinced in his beliefs and refuses to budge an inch?
....not quite with you on that point. For instance, not inviting Hamas to the most recent round of negotiations when their actions are similar to the IDF, is a sign that the US and Israel are hypocritical.
They demand that Palestine recognise Israel's right to exist, yet Israel won't do that for Palestine.
They demand that the Palestinians renounce violence. The US and Israel make that demand!!
They demand that the Palestinians accept the road map of the Quartet - yet Israel only accepts it with a list of conditions as long as your arm.
Peace can only be achieved by talking, by sharing the wealth of Israel with the Arabs imprisoned in Gaza and the West Bank - by giving communities the right to manage their own resources.
Imagine if Israel spent one-tenth of it's military budget on initiatives to build solidarity and trust between the two communities. It doesn't - it's politicians use the currency of fear to get votes and they unquestioningly accept dirty dollars and spend them on the military.
Why don't they try something like the Spirit of Enniskillen project http://www.soetrust.co.uk/ which did/does such great work building trust between polarised youth up north.0 -
How can they do that with all the checkpoints, apartheid wall, Jewish only roads etc? Lets not forget the world largest prison, also known as the Gaza strip.
The checkpoints are there because if they weren’t more suicide bombers would go into Israel. Many of them are stopped on a regular basis in these checkpoints.
The stupid wall (which I personally disagree with) was built for the same purpose. As much as I disagree with it, it’s just another desperate measure by the Israelis to stop terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. I guess they figured the wall is better than killing more Palestinians on a regular basis.
The Jewish only roads are there because the Palestinians kept firing on Israeli vehicles travelling on regular roads.
Tell me this, if the Israelis shoot or bomb the Palestinian terrorists, the world is against it. If they take other measures such as checkpoints, walls, etc. the world is against those also. So, what exactly are the Israelis allowed to do in your opinion to stop all the terrorist attacks on their citizens?That the world bank saying that. Hardly people who can be called pro Palestinians or anything of the sort.
The world bank is an organization much like the UN, comprised of many countries, including Arab & Muslim countries, some with more influence and some with less (guess who some of the richest countries in the world are…)
These organizations, by their nature are influenced by many factors, and the world bank is influenced mostly by money.The Israeli's are largely responsible for Palestinians suffering. They fact so many live in refugee camps is due to Israel.
I disagree, the fact so many live in refugee camps is the Palestinians own fault.
In 1948, when the UN decided to give the Jewish people their own state, the same UN decision also gave the Arabs living in Israel their own state. Israel was divided into two parts; the bigger one was given to the Arabs and the smaller part to the Jews. Before that time, the Israeli Arabs never had autonomous rule in any part of Israel, they were always ruled by another country, same as the Jews living in Israel (Turkey, Britain were the last two ruling countries there).
The first thing the Israeli Arabs (among the future refugees) did after the UN divided the country and gave both people the independent state both sides wanted, was to attack the newly formed Israeli state. Apparently they wanted it all. The slogan at the time was: “Push all the Jews into the sea”
With the support of almost all the surrounding Arab countries, Israel was attacked from all sides and from within. To everyone’s amazement, the Israelis actually won the war, and so began the refugee problem.
So it’s Israel’s fault so many live in refugee camps? I don’t think so. It’s the Palestinians fault for always resorting to violence and for never opting for peace when they have the chance. It started in 1948, and it is the same today.Also, one could say the same about Israel, since they stole someone else country and have only themselves to blame for the violence. Its very easy to make excuses for either sides violence. Btw, I don't agree with either sides violence.
I am glad you don’t agree with the violence of either side. I’m with you on that. I think both sides do not do enough to curb the violence.
The Israelis however did not steal someone else’s country. There was always a Jewish presence in Israel. Even before 1948.
When the Jews started returning to Israel in the 19th century, they bought massive amounts of land from the existing owners – most of these sellers were Arabs who just couldn’t resist the high prices the Jews paid for land. These transactions are well documented.
The Arabs living in what is today Israel never had self rule prior to 1948. There was no difference between their claims of land ownership and the Jewish claims. Both sides to this day base their claims on historical facts, only the Jewish claims are also backed up by purchase documents. The Arabs did lose a lot of lands and property because of the wars – but I think that is a risk one takes when one starts a war. And the Arabs definitely started the 1948 war, which marked the beginning of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.Examples of Israel attacking civilians.
Its so strange that people repeat that Israel doesn't attack civilians despite so many examples of them doing exactly that.
I never said that the Israelis never caused civilian casualties. Mistakes happen in wars, especially when the other side uses its own civilian population as shields and as propaganda material (which is exactly what Hezbollah did in the last war in Lebanon, resulting in civilian casualties).
What I said was that the Israelis do not target civilians intentionally, while the Palestinians (and Hezbollah) try to hurt innocent Israeli civilians as part of their policy/tactics.
Wouldn’t you agree that in order to achieve peace in the area, if Israel is expected to ease the hold they have over the Palestinians; the Palestinians should stop the violence on their side first?
Do you expect Israel to remove the checkpoints and the wall, and enable Palestinians free movement in the area while rockets are fired to its area on a daily basis, while suicide bombers still go out to kill innocent civilians?
The funny thing is, Israel has done it in the past – they left Gaza, which caused the violence against Israel only to intensify (the way the Palestinians see it – Israel left Gaza because of the violence practiced against it, and so more violence would probably lead to similar results. Got to love the logic…)
Also, whenever they eased the control over that area, by allowing more Palestinians to seek work in Israel, easing the restrictions, etc. the only thing they got in return was an increase in the terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians.
The latest example I’ve heard about is about two Palestinians who stayed in Tel-Aviv illegally (they had no papers), and an Israeli restaurant owner felt sorry for them and hired them to work in his restaurant.
How did that end?
They were both arrested by the Israeli security forces a couple of weeks ago for trying to put slow working poison into the food prepared in the restaurant. Why slow working? Their goal was to poison as many people as possible before the plot was exposed.
And the Israelis are supposed to trust in the Palestinian intentions? I wouldn’t trust them either.
I have a suspicion, that if the leaders of Hamas proclaim tomorrow that they will stop all violent activities (rockets, suicide bombers, etc.), start negotiating for peace with the aid of the superpowers, and actually follow up on their word to cease all violence, from that day there will be no Israeli retaliation, there will be no more Palestinian casualties, the harsh conditions in the refugee camps will improve, and peace might actually be achieved through peaceful political means.
Israel does have a peace accord with Egypt and Jordan who were Israel’s bitter enemies. How many violent attacks by Israel on those countries have you heard of since the peace agreements were signed? None. Why wouldn’t the Palestinians learn from these examples? Maybe they have a different agenda than the one the world believes they do (I can do conspiracy theories too…)?
Unfortunately, Hamas seems hell bent on violence (religious fanatics anyone?), and as I’ve said before: violence begets violence, and since the Palestinians are the weaker side in the conflict, seems they will continue being the ones who suffer the most.
The never ending circle of death continues. Just makes me sick.0 -
Firstly munchester29 - why did you bother to quote my whole post, it's long enough as it is.
Sorry about that, still working out the finer details of answering…Secondly, if you read my post that you quoted instead of just following your instincts you'll see that I am against Palestinians being violent towards anyone - suicide bombing is wrong, as is any other type of bombing in my idealistic worldview.
I agree completely. I am also against senseless violence committed by Israeli soldiers.In my post above, I commented on how most pro-Israelis were unable to engage in a discussion about the actions of the Israeli state without immediately referencing Palestinian violence. You did exactly that. Did you even notice?
In my opinion, the two go together hand in hand. You can’t discuss the one without referencing the other. The actions of the Israelis are, after all, in response to the Palestinian violence.Perhaps you could explain how those children are to blame for their living conditions?
I never said that the children were to blame for their living conditions. The way these children live is a disgrace to humanity in my opinion. I just don’t think that the Israelis are really to blame. I mostly blame Hamas, because their actions are what is causing this mess....not quite with you on that point. For instance, not inviting Hamas to the most recent round of negotiations when their actions are similar to the IDF, is a sign that the US and Israel are hypocritical.
Hamas are actually negotiating, but they insist on doing it without talking to the Israelis. They are negotiating with Jimmy Carter for example, and other channels (through other Arab countries)They demand that Palestine recognise Israel's right to exist, yet Israel won't do that for Palestine.
Israel did recognise Palestinians right for self rule. That was one of the reasons Israel pulled out of Gaza and allowed the Palestinians to have self rule there. We all know how that experiment ended…
The Palestinians however, are doing the best they can not to recognise Israel’s right to exist.They demand that the Palestinians renounce violence. The US and Israel make that demand!!
Not sure what you meant by that. Does it matter where the demand to cease the violence comes from? The violence has to stop for peace to prevail.They demand that the Palestinians accept the road map of the Quartet - yet Israel only accepts it with a list of conditions as long as your arm.
The Palestinians have a list just as long. That is why you negotiate peace, and not just sign an agreement within a day. You have to go over the list of demands from both sides, both sides have to give up on some demands, both sides have to agree to others, etc.Peace can only be achieved by talking, by sharing the wealth of Israel with the Arabs imprisoned in Gaza and the West Bank - by giving communities the right to manage their own resources.
Well, if I remember the numbers correctly, the Palestinians got around 10 Billion US Dollars already from various countries and funds in the world. Most of that money was stolen by the various Palestinian leaders and is now safely in Swiss bank accounts and the rest is used to perpetuate the war with Israel. Almost none of these funds were actually used to better the lives of the Palestinians. Things have to drastically change within the Palestinian authorities in that aspect, otherwise all the money in the world won’t help.Imagine if Israel spent one-tenth of it's military budget on initiatives to build solidarity and trust between the two communities. It doesn't - it's politicians use the currency of fear to get votes and they unquestioningly accept dirty dollars and spend them on the military.
While I don’t agree that Israel should be the one spending all the money on such an initiative - I think that the rich Arab countries and the rich western countries should be the ones to do it; I agree with you that the Israeli politicians use the currency of fear to get votes. In my opinion, in much the same way as the Palestinian politicians – they use the war between the two sides to enrich themselves on the expense of their people. Seems like the leaders on both sides just love getting rich because of the war between Israel and the Palestinians.
I think the politicians on both sides use the war as a diversion to make their people forget how corrupt they are.0 -
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munchester29 wrote: »The checkpoints are there because if they weren’t more suicide bombers would go into Israel. Many of them are stopped on a regular basis in these checkpoints.
Why are there then checkpoints within the West Bank? Checkpoints that separate Palestinian villages? We aren't talking about checkpoints into Israel, but deep in the West Bank.
They exist to make life miserable for Palestinians plain and simple. The World Bank comment shows us the effect it has on there economy.munchester29 wrote: »The stupid wall (which I personally disagree with) was built for the same purpose. As much as I disagree with it, it’s just another desperate measure by the Israelis to stop terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians. I guess they figured the wall is better than killing more Palestinians on a regular basis.
Why does it separate Palestinians villages then? Why does it annex more Palestinian land? Its a land grab pure and simple.
Also, Israel has no issue with killing Palestinians. I provided links showing hwo the IDF treat them.munchester29 wrote: »The Jewish only roads are there because the Palestinians kept firing on Israeli vehicles travelling on regular roads.
The roads run right through the West Bank on stolen Palestinian land. They are there to serve illegal Jewish colonies and to make life impossible for Palestinians.
Basically another land grab.
Palestine Peace Not Apartheid By Jimmy Carter
Jimmy Carters book has a lot more detail on the roads.munchester29 wrote: »Tell me this, if the Israelis shoot or bomb the Palestinian terrorists, the world is against it. If they take other measures such as checkpoints, walls, etc. the world is against those also. So, what exactly are the Israelis allowed to do in your opinion to stop all the terrorist attacks on their citizens?
Make peace. Offer them a actual 2 state solution. Not one where all that is on offer are Bathusans.
Or they could give them equal rights, but Zionist will never consider a Palestinian as equal.
The Israeli's are terrorist themselves as can be seen by there collective punishment of Palestinians in Gaza.munchester29 wrote: »The world bank is an organization much like the UN, comprised of many countries, including Arab & Muslim countries, some with more influence and some with less (guess who some of the richest countries in the world are…)
These organizations, by their nature are influenced by many factors, and the world bank is influenced mostly by money.
Oh so the world bank hate Israel :rolleyes:. Anyone who says something bad about Israel are being controlled by the big bad Muslims or Arabs. Care to provide proof that Muslims/Arab countries influenced the World Bank comments?
In fact Israel best buddy the USA, has a lot of control over the world bank.
Oxfam calls for end to US control over appointment of World Bank president
What you said here is complete and utter nonsense of the highest order. As can be seen from the article the US is firmly in control of the World Bank.munchester29 wrote: »I disagree, the fact so many live in refugee camps is the Palestinians own fault.
How lovely of you to blame the victims.munchester29 wrote: »In 1948, when the UN decided to give the Jewish people their own state, the same UN decision also gave the Arabs living in Israel their own state. Israel was divided into two parts; the bigger one was given to the Arabs and the smaller part to the Jews. Before that time, the Israeli Arabs never had autonomous rule in any part of Israel, they were always ruled by another country, same as the Jews living in Israel (Turkey, Britain were the last two ruling countries there).
Ah, so its ok to give half there country away to Europeans then. Not like that would bother the people living there or anything.munchester29 wrote: »The first thing the Israeli Arabs (among the future refugees) did after the UN divided the country and gave both people the independent state both sides wanted, was to attack the newly formed Israeli state. Apparently they wanted it all. The slogan at the time was: “Push all the Jews into the sea”
With the support of almost all the surrounding Arab countries, Israel was attacked from all sides and from within. To everyone’s amazement, the Israelis actually won the war, and so began the refugee problem.
So it’s Israel’s fault so many live in refugee camps? I don’t think so. It’s the Palestinians fault for always resorting to violence and for never opting for peace when they have the chance. It started in 1948, and it is the same today.
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine By Ilan Pappe
The War for Palestine: Rewriting the History of 1948 By Eugene L. Rogan and Avi Shalaim
Both from Israeli historians.
All, the Zionist nonsense you spouted is refuted in those books. The Zionists engaged in a deliberate ethnic cleansing, pure and simple.
The lie Zionist present is down right disgusting denialism. Especially to blame the victims of Zionist racism is doubly disturbing.munchester29 wrote: »I am glad you don’t agree with the violence of either side. I’m with you on that. I think both sides do not do enough to curb the violence.
The Israelis however did not steal someone else’s country. There was always a Jewish presence in Israel. Even before 1948.
The Palestinians were the majority evne then. Large scale Jewish immigration
began before 1948.munchester29 wrote: »When the Jews started returning to Israel in the 19th century, they bought massive amounts of land from the existing owners – most of these sellers were Arabs who just couldn’t resist the high prices the Jews paid for land. These transactions are well documented.
So? Palestinians were the majority and if you read the book I mentioned above you will see it was the Ottomans who sold the land.munchester29 wrote: »The Arabs living in what is today Israel never had self rule prior to 1948. There was no difference between their claims of land ownership and the Jewish claims. Both sides to this day base their claims on historical facts, only the Jewish claims are also backed up by purchase documents. The Arabs did lose a lot of lands and property because of the wars – but I think that is a risk one takes when one starts a war. And the Arabs definitely started the 1948 war, which marked the beginning of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.
Complete and utter nonsense. The Zionists wanted rid of the Arabs and thats what they always intended to do. Again refer to the links I posted earlier.munchester29 wrote: »I never said that the Israelis never caused civilian casualties. Mistakes happen in wars, especially when the other side uses its own civilian population as shields and as propaganda material (which is exactly what Hezbollah did in the last war in Lebanon, resulting in civilian casualties).
What I said was that the Israelis do not target civilians intentionally, while the Palestinians (and Hezbollah) try to hurt innocent Israeli civilians as part of their policy/tactics.
I have provided proof of Israel intentionally attack civilians. You need look no farther than Gaza to see there collective punishment of entire population there.munchester29 wrote: »Wouldn’t you agree that in order to achieve peace in the area, if Israel is expected to ease the hold they have over the Palestinians; the Palestinians should stop the violence on their side first?
One would expect the Israeli's to stop stealing land. Which causes a lot of anger towards them in the first place, but as I showed earlier in the thread, they never do so.
Also, its odd you don't mention that Israel should stop there violence, which tends to lead to Palestinian violence. Same old Zionist apologist double standard, only 1 side is ever expected to stop the violence.munchester29 wrote: »Do you expect Israel to remove the checkpoints and the wall, and enable Palestinians free movement in the area while rockets are fired to its area on a daily basis, while suicide bombers still go out to kill innocent civilians?
I do expect them to remove checkpoints deep in the West Bank. Why are they there at all? How can people possibly suicide bomb Israel from within the West Bank? You love to ignore so many inconvenient details?munchester29 wrote: »The funny thing is, Israel has done it in the past – they left Gaza, which caused the violence against Israel only to intensify (the way the Palestinians see it – Israel left Gaza because of the violence practiced against it, and so more violence would probably lead to similar results. Got to love the logic…)
Also, whenever they eased the control over that area, by allowing more Palestinians to seek work in Israel, easing the restrictions, etc. the only thing they got in return was an increase in the terrorist attacks on Israeli civilians.
As I showed earlier, they stole more land in the West Bank right after they left Gaza. Odd you always leave that detail out. What the Palestinians saw was Israel steal more land and show they had no intentions for peace.
I already posted the links of Israel stealing more land in the West Bank in this thread. You can pretend they never happened but there for everyone to see.munchester29 wrote: »The latest example I’ve heard about is about two Palestinians who stayed in Tel-Aviv illegally (they had no papers), and an Israeli restaurant owner felt sorry for them and hired them to work in his restaurant.
How did that end?
They were both arrested by the Israeli security forces a couple of weeks ago for trying to put slow working poison into the food prepared in the restaurant. Why slow working? Their goal was to poison as many people as possible before the plot was exposed.
And the Israelis are supposed to trust in the Palestinian intentions? I wouldn’t trust them either.
Terrible. Those men were criminals. Why should all Palestinians be judged by them?
As I posted the actions of the IDF and the fact Israel stole more land after leaving Gaza. We know the Israeli government (as opposed to the people) are liars and the IDF treat the Palestinians as sub-human.munchester29 wrote: »I have a suspicion, that if the leaders of Hamas proclaim tomorrow that they will stop all violent activities (rockets, suicide bombers, etc.), start negotiating for peace with the aid of the superpowers, and actually follow up on their word to cease all violence, from that day there will be no Israeli retaliation, there will be no more Palestinian casualties, the harsh conditions in the refugee camps will improve, and peace might actually be achieved through peaceful political means.
Pure speculation. Israel has broken plenty of cease fires and have launched attacks on the West Bank, even though no rockets are coming from there. So nonsense again.munchester29 wrote: »Israel does have a peace accord with Egypt and Jordan who were Israel’s bitter enemies. How many violent attacks by Israel on those countries have you heard of since the peace agreements were signed? None. Why wouldn’t the Palestinians learn from these examples? Maybe they have a different agenda than the one the world believes they do (I can do conspiracy theories too…)?
The Palestinian have never been offered anything other than Bathusans. Hence no peace.munchester29 wrote: »Unfortunately, Hamas seems hell bent on violence (religious fanatics anyone?), and as I’ve said before: violence begets violence, and since the Palestinians are the weaker side in the conflict, seems they will continue being the ones who suffer the most.
The never ending circle of death continues. Just makes me sick.
Why then did Israel (I posted a link earlier to this btw) fund Hamas then? Strange how you forget that so very quickly.0
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