Digiweb Throttling speeds a bit extreme?

watty

If you buy gas, electricity, bin emptying in advance or Bread & Milk, and you use it all up, you don't get more till you buy more.

The real problem is ISPs that DON'T tell you there is a Cap, that claim "unlimited" when it isn't or state there is a FUP (Fair Use Policy) but neglect to tell you what it is and then cut you off (not even throttle).

Unless you are running torrents, iPlayer/Kontiki/SkyAnytime or zombie bot net etc, the throttled speed is better than dialup for visiting web sites.

Digiweb contract is quite clear and upfront, You pay monthly for a contented speed @ download limit. If you use it all up, unlike Mobile Phone or Bin Tags, they STILL provide you a service, although at just faster than dialup speeds. No time limit. And all cheaper than dialup.


If cgarvey is Digiweb fanboi / employee / schill, then I'm a pink elephant in a tutu smoking a cigar.

jozi

If anyone feels like acting on behalf of me and going after Digiweb, then by all means do so :cool: I don't have the time to be going after them, or any reason.

It's the speed that i'm not happy with, just over 2% of what i signed up for.

Here's the clause from the contract for those who want to read it and see they are in the right (i guess):

9. FAIR ACCESS POLICY. To ensure equal Internet access for all subscribers, DIGIWEB operates a fair access policy. Fair access establishes an equitable balance in Internet access across high speed Internet services for all subscribers. To ensure this equity, heavy usage customers may experience temporary throughput limitations during peak usage hours. DIGIWEB provides the Service on a “best effort” basis and does not guarantee upload or download speeds. Further, all services are subject to a Trafic Quota which is the sum of the upload and download trafic generated during a 30-day period. The Quota level for each service varies and is displayed with the Service details at www.digiweb.ie and may be modiied from time to time. Accounts which exceed their quota may be restricted or suspended without notice, however DIGIWEB will endeavor to advise of such actions, and may provide web-based information to the Subscriber to review their usage level. Metro Lite accounts running in excess of the permitted Trafic Quota will have the option to subscribe for additional quota, upgrade to a suitable service level, or have internet access restricted until the account returns within quota.

And, I signed up to 3mb metro which was then upgraded to 6mb within days of getting it. The speed got upgrade, not the package (imo).

As for cancellation, if i do so before my contract (12 months) runs out will cost me 3months service.

Other digiweb users: When did you sign a contract? Only thing i remember signing for was when the guys came to install the receiver is signed of that it worked.

watty

Ordering & paying is legally binding acceptance of the contract.

um7y1h83ge06nx

Some comical comments here.

I really would be careful on the whole chargeback thing, it could get messy.

I'm with Digiweb Metro, and would love no cap, but I decided to go with Metro, with the knowledge that there is a 30GB traffic limit on a rolling 30 day window.

I might not be completely over the moon with the T&Cs, but I'm aware of them and I signed a contract to agree to them.

milkerman

OP Do you realise that your 'throttled' speeds are better than many customers get on 3 mobile fraudband?
Broadband access is a bit like an ordinary phone bill, you pay in proportion to the amount of use. At least they didnt cut you off.
BTW Any word when the Digiweb mobile bb is being extended to us in the sticks? Look into yer crystal ball there Watty.

watty

Hmm...

It's a bit cloudy today in the Crystal Ball ...

I can see a wonderfull lattice of backhaul and spiky masts. But my Bat's Eye view is too high in the Sky to read the exact date.

pwd

it's a fair point, in fact I think the only provider at the moment that doesn't enforce any caps, throttling or charges for usage is eircom. Given that they are always quick to make money whereever possible it's probably only a matter of time before that changes as well.

eircom will not enforce caps:
There is a security issue that means a large number of eircom users have people leeching their broadband. There's no way to determine whether the cap is being exceeded by the user, or if it is being exceeded because of people leeching their connection. All enforcing a cap would do would be to draw attention to eircom's security vulnerability which obviously is not in eircom's interest.

watty

Eircom *WILL* enforce caps as they get more higher speed users. The security issue is already well publicised. (I can see 2 WiFi points on scan with default eircom SSIDs from my bedroom. 6 access points in all, only 2 using WPA, when my own is off).

jozi

It's been nearly a week now! I'm 700mb away from being at 30gigs, how much under 30gigs do i have to be for the throttling to be lifted?

spartacus93

"below 80% of your usage limits"

did ya not get the email?!

Praetorian

watty wrote: »

Eircom *WILL* enforce caps as they get more higher speed users. The security issue is already well publicised. (I can see 2 WiFi points on scan with default eircom SSIDs from my bedroom. 6 access points in all, only 2 using WPA, when my own is off).

Isn't it a lot offtopic to be commenting on Eircoms possible plans / problems in a Digiweb throttling thread?

Come on Watty just admit this is a way to make a few extra euro off your big users or are those small few really close to actually bringing the Digiweb network to a crawl?

lucernarian

I think having to wait for usage to fall below 80% is unwarranted. Waiting for it to fall below 90% would be enough to get the point across...

And far from eircom enforcing caps, the Gigabit and 10 Gigabit connections being brought to over 200 exchanges will substantially alleviate the contention problem that's particularly severe in areas with lots of commuters.

I'd say that in Digiweb's case, they have nothing like fibre gigabit supplying most of their metro or FWA sites.

watty

Praetorian wrote: »

Isn't it a lot offtopic to be commenting on Eircoms possible plans / problems in a Digiweb throttling thread?

Come on Watty just admit this is a way to make a few extra euro off your big users or are those small few really close to actually bringing the Digiweb network to a crawl?

Not when others bring up the topic.

Google Kontiki, BBC iPlayer, Joost, Comcast P2P and tell me ISPs will keep advertising or selling unlimited.

Digiweb does have Gigibit fibre, but I can't comment on how much as I don't work with it and that would be commercially sensitive information. Digiweb also has their own Microwave links with more capacity than the head ends can eat to allow expansion. Hence Digiweb has not got the severe contention problem you mention.

Could it be something to do with being up front about what is being sold and then managing it as an actually fair, Fair Use Policy?


Eircom has a lot of backhaul other ISPs could use if it was priced at European levels. But there are eNet MANs not connected because the price is so high.

I'd have thought it unlikely that there are 200 exchanges with severe contention. I'd have thought the 10Gbit is for eircoms IPTV plans ( you need that to do current speeds and add TV for 500 users). IPTV needs about 100 times the backhaul capacity unless you put all the playout servers in the exchange. Then the backhaul is independent of number of users and depends on number of channels.

lucernarian

I can only report on what I, along with some of my neighbours, have experienced on Digiweb FWA, which is a general slowdown from the early afternoon onwards to 1am. Speeds used to pick up at about midnight to slightly better than the equivalent eircom package but now the jump usually happens nearer 1.30am.

Oh and I never mentioned anything about 200 exchanges suffering from severe contention. Just that 200 sites are being provisioned with gigabit speeds of some sort over the next few years, and that there are exchanges with contention problems among them.

I can't see too much point to download/upload caps if there is a service which has more than enough backhaul to meet needs, unless the backhaul pricing is highly dependent on traffic usage??

watty

:: The investment in backhaul has to be paid off.
:: All ISPs have to pay for all data in and out from them to the rest of the network.
:: Any rented backhaul may be priced per megabyte
:: FWA (3.5GHz) is quite different to Metro and may not even be the same technology in all areas. The FWA 3.5GByte speeds have not been upgraded and the majority of Digiweb Wireless would be on Metro.
:: Without throttling very heavy users on a rolling basis all users would see much more slow down on the "air interface" from the FWA 3.5GHz mast. Comreg sells spectrum from a very limited "pie".

The ESB has enough cable to meet "backhaul needs" from the local substation, should they just charge a flat rate and let people "eat as much as they like"?

The Caps also manage basestation contention which is much less flexible on ALL FWA systems than Cable, DSL or Metro. Some other operators FWA go so slow that a Cap is not needed to manage contention, or the modems can't be individually throttled, so all are slowed badly by a 5% heavy users.

Caps thus exist for two reasons, (1) to give everyone (not just 5%) a fair slice of the spectrum pie and (2) to reflect the real costs of traffic, hence on Metro you can purchase extra traffic.

jozi

80% thats going to take ages!


I'm at 3.8 gigs in the last 7 days, 6 days throttled, only now am i coming near 30gigs (30.49) and i was 4gig over the cap when i got throttled.

It's going to take a another week to get to 24gigs. I dont think being throttled for over a week can be called "fair usage".

this sucks

Third Eye

hi again Jozi

As a fellow capped person I would have to agree with you that it's harsh. I have been with Digiweb a long time without even realising there was a cap and then out of the blue I was hit with the cap without even knowing what was going. It would be better to get an email to say you are about to go over your cap rather than one after when the damage is already done. A tsunami warning system would be good. Then again, it's probably a nice little earner. My very first cap is taking about three weeks to reduce. Now at 28 gigs...only another 10 to go!

spartacus93

Third Eye wrote: »

I have been with Digiweb a long time without even realising there was a cap and then out of the blue I was hit with the cap without even knowing what was going. It would be better to get an email to say you are about to go over your cap rather than one after when the damage is already done. A tsunami warning system would be good. Then again, it's probably a nice little earner.

They do send out an email... When you're approaching your limit you get a warning.

rmacm

Yep I had Metro for ~2 years while I was living in Limerick and anytime I got near the 30GB limit on the package I had at the time I got an email about it. Third Eye I'm not sure how you couldn't know there was a cap on your package, from what I remember it is stated in the terms and conditions of the package and I just checked the Digiweb website there and each package has a traffic quota listed.

WizZard

Does nobody remember the halcyon days of DSL extra charges, e.g. 20c per megabyte over the cap, and no notification at all (except €2000 broadband bills)? IIRC this board was full of "ZOMG if only they throttled my speed rather than charge me more". Now that is what's happening and still people are not happy.
Unlimited bandwidth is not an option, and anyone who claims it is is being creative with the truth. All ISPs that offer "unlimited" bandwidth have a Fair Use Policy which allows them to terminate your access and/or charge you more if you abuse the service. Note that the definition of abuse if defined by the ISP and not the end user.

I don't understand how people can accuse Digiweb of making more money off this? If you need more than the allocated cap then surely you can just buy more. So the person who accidentally goes over the cap is not charged extra, but the person who regularly wants to use more pays more. I'm not sure you can get fairer than that system.
Personally I think that the cap should be larger for the speeds provided, but that's another, different argument.

spartacus93

@ Watty - Metro users can pay to get their cap raised. Is this an option for DSL users, or will it ever be?

Third Eye

Hi spartacus93

I only received an email to say I was capped. I have double checked this and as I have all my digiweb emails for invoice purposes I can see there was NO warning. I have no problem with T&C's but I wish there was a 'yellow card' in place. I do not download movies at all and have a fairly slow download ability (200kb/sec when not capped) and have never exceeded agreed usage before so I do think it would be fairer to warn people because if I had known I would have stopped.

spartacus93

There is a yellow card system in place. I have received plenty of warning emails... Besides, you can keep an eye on it yourself mytraffic.digiweb.ie

Wcool

watty wrote: »

The ESB has enough cable to meet "backhaul needs" from the local substation, should they just charge a flat rate and let people "eat as much as they like"?

(was YES before Edit, sorry thought ESB broadband backhaul not energy)
NO, as the charge is relatively high compared to the rental and ESB is not able to deliver limitless energy
But energy is not the same as BB data.
First it IS possible to satisfy all (like BT and Eircon)
Second it is relatively cheap and easy to buy extra data capacity.

watty wrote: »

The Caps also manage basestation contention which is much less flexible on ALL FWA systems than Cable, DSL or Metro. Some other operators FWA go so slow that a Cap is not needed to manage contention, or the modems can't be individually throttled, so all are slowed badly by a 5% heavy users.

Caps thus exist for two reasons, (1) to give everyone (not just 5%) a fair slice of the spectrum pie and (2) to reflect the real costs of traffic, hence on Metro you can purchase extra traffic.

Ad 1, somehow I just doubt that giving people more than 30Gb will lead to problems. If Metro is similar to Cable and DSL as you claim, and BT and Eircon largely are able to provide 100Gb without any problems, what is keeping Digiweb?
Ad 2, Real cost of traffic my ass! Most ADSL companies have to pay Eircon wholesale rental but provide at least 100Gb per month for a price that is cheaper than Eircon. Eircon itself does not charge heavy users.
Digiweb is not dependent on Eircon AFAIK, and should be able to buy its data in bulk from independent vendors where you don't have to pay Eircon's extortion money, for VERY cheap, yet does not give the benefits to the user.

So where does Digiweb go from here? In 2 years many will have generous or unlimited 12Mb connections, what is Digiweb going to do? Offer 10Mbs/s and still only expect people to download 30Gb per month?

Digiwebs DSL offering has NO technical need to be limited to a cap lower than Eircons, yet it is, guess what the reason is....?

If you watch your monthly mytraffic.digiweb.ie stats, have you ever noticed how much surface is ABOVE the traffic download line? That's the area you miss out on by having a 30Gb cap.

jozi

Sorry to go of topic again :rolleyes:

Does throttling get removed at 80% of total cap or just downloaded?

watty

80% of total traffic.

Most ADSL (All ADSL?) resellers don't make money. Perlico lost 17m Eur the year before Vodaphone bought them. Smart lost all their Bitstream customers because they couldn't pay the bills. Smart was then injected with 40M to keep it afloat.

The ADSL resold traffic has to pay transit on Eircom and then cost of transit and interconnection on the ISPs network.

If LLU system and costs in anyway approached the mainland European standards & Price, then IBB, BT, Digiweb and others would do NO bitstream reselling, but be all LLU. But with crazy Irish system LLU costs more...


EVERY ISP in long term will be enforcing cap or be moving to lower cap and then charge per Gbyte for usage. Or else everyone will go out of business. Did you read up on the "battle Royal" in USA and UK? The problem is legitimate P2P entering the mainstream.

Do you want an unmanaged network that slows down beginning & end of month and the ISP goes out of business in a year or two, or a managed network that give the same performance all month and stays in business and able to roll out to more areas?


A Bitstream reseller can expand with almost no capital expenditure. Operators that primarily are not bitstream have extremely high immediate capital expenditure and make even less money today in hope of jam tomorrow without simply rebadging eircom, who makes plenty of profit, since eircom's infrastucture is already paid (in a sense bcause the way it has been sold & bought has saddled eircom with massive debt). eircom have essentially nothing to pay for backhaul in the past but as they increase speeds and add IPTV, they will find it rises dramatically esp. in servicing loans to buy the new 1G & 10G backhauls. Then they will aggressively apply cap.

jozi

And finally today i'm below 80% of my cap, at last!

Will be keeping a close eye on that cap meter from now on!

How come the graph shows my download peak at 2.4mb, should i not be getting 6 is im on the 6 package? Is this a case of bit's and bytes etc that i dont understand?

watty

It's maybe an average peak over an hour? It depends also on what you are doing. I have 200k to 20M depending what connection I'm using. For some web sites and skype relay (where you have no incoming firewall rule) it makes no differece which speed I'm on.

jbdub

pwd wrote: »

eircom will not enforce caps:
There is a security issue that means a large number of eircom users have people leeching their broadband. There's no way to determine whether the cap is being exceeded by the user, or if it is being exceeded because of people leeching their connection. All enforcing a cap would do would be to draw attention to eircom's security vulnerability which obviously is not in eircom's interest.

Irish Broadband have no caps or usage limits, i worked there and on the whole people who got the Breeze service(Fixed Wireless) were happy with the connection

cgarvey

jbdub wrote: »

Irish Broadband have no caps or usage limits

Yes they do, of course they do. It's just they don't tell you what they are. If there's one guy maxing out his connection 24/7 on a given mast, you can be sure he'll be contacted.