Item not as described- am i entitled to refund?

mkennedy

Hi.
I bought a 3g dual sim adapter from **** recently.
Here it is:
http://www.phonevolts.com/product_info.php?products_id=598&XTCsid=ec800d0c764668ff3b22f1a86a5c013d

It clearly states there that it works with ALL gsm and 3G phones and ALL 2G and 3G sim cards.

So on that basis I bought it for my 3G phone.

I tried it repeatedly in my 3G phone but it simply doesn't work.
They initially sent me out a replacement (thinking the first one was just faulty) but this didn't work either.

So this item is clearly incompatible with my 3G phone.. even though the website says it's compatible with ALL 3G phones.
So the item is clearly "not as described".
Am I entitled to a refund on that basis?

Phonevolts are refusing to give me a refund even after I pointed all this out to them.

They also made some excuse that it was a consumable and therefore non-returnable.
1) Firstly this should be irrelevant if the item is "not as described" in the first place.
2) But secondly nowhere in their literature do they list a sim card ADAPTER as consumable/non-returnable. (their list of consumables/non-returnables includes sim cards, memory cards etc but nowhere does it say sim card ADAPTERS).
It's not consumable.

Anyway given that the item was "not as described" it seems they don't have a leg to stand on.
Am I entitled to a refund?
And what can I do about it?

Any help with this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks.

Sam Vimes

they can give you a refund, repair or replacement. you should go to the shop and get another replacement. open it on the spot and try it. if it doesn't work, ask for another. repeat until you've used up their stock.

then ask them to order another one for you and repeat until you've bankrupted the company

mkennedy

Thanks.
So is it their prerogative as to whether they want to give me a refund/replacement/
repair?

Also one little thing.
I'm about 150 miles away so going up with my phone/sending my phone in would not be an economically viable option.
And also I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving a 500 euro phone with them either tbh.

But do I actually HAVE to go up and show them the phone is incompatible before I get a refund?
Why don't they just take my word over the phone that it's incompatible?

I take your (facetious ) point about bankrupting them through replacements but as I said i'm 150 miles away so can't go into them any time soon.

Oryx

An item should be 'as described' and 'fit for the purpose for which it is sold'. As this seems not to be the case, based on what you have said, I think you are actually within your rights to demand a refund. To me, this case differs from the usual faulty goods cases, because this item was sold to you in error, and will not do what it was supposed to. Unless they can come up with an alternative, repair and replacement are not viable options.

Sam Vimes

mkennedy wrote: »

Thanks.
So is it their prerogative as to whether they want to give me a refund/replacement/
repair?

yes it is. the product doesn't work so you are definitely entitled to one of the above and don't listen to anyhthing about "non-returnable".

as KtK says, the product doesn't work with your phone so a replacement is not an appropriate solution and it's not broken so repairing it isn't appropriate so the only one left is refund.

you shouldn't have to go to the shop. tell him to try one in a phone on the premesis to prove it doesn't work. if he tries it and it works, ask him to post it to you, paying postage of course. if it doesn't, and he still refuses to give you a refund, he's breaking the law and you'll have to take him to the small claims court or at least threaten to. it costs €9

of course he doesn't have to try one in a phone when you ask so you might have to go there

mkennedy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

yes it is. the product doesn't work so you are definitely entitled to one of the above and don't listen to anyhthing about "non-returnable".

as KtK says, the product doesn't work with your phone so a replacement is not an appropriate solution and it's not broken so repairing it isn't appropriate so the only one left is refund.

you shouldn't have to go to the shop. tell him to try one in a phone on the premesis to prove it doesn't work. if he tries it and it works, ask him to post it to you, paying postage of course. if it doesn't, and he still refuses to give you a refund, he's breaking the law and you'll have to take him to the small claims court or at least threaten to. it costs €9

of course he doesn't have to try one in a phone when you ask so you might have to go there

Thanks lads.

I also felt I shouldn't have to trapse up to Dublin just for this.
But is he actually under any obligation to demonstrate that the item does work with my model of 3G phone (they did say ANY 3G phone so you'd think they'd be prepared to back that statement up in some way).

With whom does the "burden of proof" lie, so to speak.
I thought it would've been with them given they said it'd work with ANY 3G phone.

Either way I feel he's hiding behind the excuse: "bring the phone in and we'll test it" when he knows I can't do that easily.

And he also couldn't confirm to me that he would offer a refund if it WAS indeed demonstrated before their eyes to be incompatible.
So no guarantee of a refund even if I did all that...

Incidentally this guy wanted to charge me postage for sending on the replacement for the initial one they deemed faulty.
From reading your posts I now know that was not on.


I've filed a complaint on the OCDA website.
Haven't heard anything back yet..

Might pay the €9 for the small claims court as well.

axer

mkennedy wrote: »

Thanks lads.

I also felt I shouldn't have to trapse up to Dublin just for this.
But is he actually under any obligation to demonstrate that the item does work with my model of 3G phone (they did say ANY 3G phone so you'd think they'd be prepared to back that statement up in some way).

With whom does the "burden of proof" lie, so to speak.
I thought it would've been with them given they said it'd work with ANY 3G phone.

Either way I feel he's hiding behind the excuse: "bring the phone in and we'll test it" when he knows I can't do that easily.

And he also couldn't confirm to me that he would offer a refund if it WAS indeed demonstrated before their eyes to be incompatible.
So no guarantee of a refund even if I did all that...

Incidentally this guy wanted to charge me postage for sending on the replacement for the initial one they deemed faulty.
From reading your posts I now know that was not on.


I've filed a complaint on the OCDA website.
Haven't heard anything back yet..

Might pay the €9 for the small claims court as well.

Did you buy this item online?
If yes, did you take a screenshot of the page where the item was described?

Sam Vimes

mkennedy wrote: »

With whom does the "burden of proof" lie, so to speak.
I thought it would've been with them given they said it'd work with ANY 3G phone.

Either way I feel he's hiding behind the excuse: "bring the phone in and we'll test it" when he knows I can't do that easily.

unfortunately, he's perfectly entitled to do that. it's not his problem that you live far away

mkennedy wrote: »

And he also couldn't confirm to me that he would offer a refund if it WAS indeed demonstrated before their eyes to be incompatible.
So no guarantee of a refund even if I did all that...

well then he'd be breaking the law

mkennedy wrote: »

Incidentally this guy wanted to charge me postage for sending on the replacement for the initial one they deemed faulty.
From reading your posts I now know that was not on.

i'm afraid it is on. if you originally bought the item in the shop then he's under no obligation to post it to you. did you buy it online?

mkennedy

Sam Vimes wrote: »

unfortunately, he's perfectly entitled to do that. it's not his problem that you live far away


well then he'd be breaking the law


i'm afraid it is on. if you originally bought the item in the shop then he's under no obligation to post it to you. did you buy it online?

So he doesn't have to prove to me it works with my model of phone?

It was bought in the shop, not online.
So does that mean the buyer has to pay all the sellers postage on all replacements/repairs sent out (even if faulty)?

mkennedy

axer wrote: »

Did you buy this item online?
If yes, did you take a screenshot of the page where the item was described?

I printed the page off.
The item was bought instore.

craichoe

You have to prove to him it doesn't work with your phone. He's already told you it works. You say it doesn't. Its possible it could be user error, so he's quite entitled to ask you to come in so he can attempt to rectify it.

Are you sure phone is unlocked ?
Is there a security code on it ?

In future i'd say try before you buy

However for the sake of 25 euro i wouldn't be too bothered, getting to dublin and the phone calls will cost you more than that. Small claims would waste more of your time that its worth.

axer

mkennedy wrote: »

I printed the page off.
The item was bought instore.

Then you will have to either drop the item back to the seller or pay the postage yourself as it is not the seller's fault that you live 150 miles away.

mkennedy

axer wrote: »

Then you will have to either drop the item back to the seller or pay the postage yourself as it is not the seller's fault that you live 150 miles away.

No, I've no problem posting it back and paying for postage.
It's just that i'd still get no refund in return.
Theoretically i'd have to send on my (expensive) phone as well for them to test incompatibility, something i'm understandably loath to do.

And TBH they didn't say they'd refund me anyway even if I WENT to Dublin with it and it was found not to work.

Might just cut my losses.
The principle of it is annoying though-
guy sells an item claiming it works
->obviously doesn't work
->up to ME to prove this, seemingly
->a lot of expense involved (trip to Dublin or send on an expensive phone) just to prove the obvious
->no guarantee of refund even if I did demonstrate incompatibility to them.

mkennedy

craichoe wrote: »

You have to prove to him it doesn't work with your phone. He's already told you it works. You say it doesn't. Its possible it could be user error, so he's quite entitled to ask you to come in so he can attempt to rectify it.

Are you sure phone is unlocked ?
Is there a security code on it ?

In future i'd say try before you buy

However for the sake of 25 euro i wouldn't be too bothered, getting to dublin and the phone calls will cost you more than that. Small claims would waste more of your time that its worth.

Phone is unlocked.
I've tried repeatedly to get it to work but no joy.
The phone works with any other 2G or 3G sim cards i've tried.

Yeah I may just cut my losses because it's just 25euro.
But it's the principle that I have a problem with-
Is this essentially the principle so:
If I bought online, from any distance seller(where obviously I couldn't try before I buy and couldn't easily physically drop it back into them), and the thing was NOT AS DESCRIBED, I couldn't get a refund?

Or is the fact that (in this particular case) I bought INSTORE rather than online making the difference here?

In other words if I bought instore I have to return it instore myself and show it doesn't work?
If I bought online they're obliged to take it back without me having to PROVE to them it doesn't work???

axer

mkennedy wrote: »

No, I've no problem posting it back and paying for postage.
It's just that i'd still get no refund in return.
Theoretically i'd have to send on my (expensive) phone as well for them to test incompatibility, something i'm understandably loath to do.

Have you told them the model of phone you have? I wouldn't expect that you would send your phone to the seller because if something happened to your phone it wouldnt be covered by anyone.

mkennedy wrote: »

And TBH they didn't say they'd refund me anyway even if I WENT to Dublin with it and it was found not to work.

It wouldn't matter what they would say as you would be covered by law thus you con just take them to the small claims court. You can still do this if you want and display to them that it does not work.

mkennedy wrote: »

->obviously doesn't work

Many times people say this regarding a product which turns out was being used incorrectly in the first place.

mkennedy wrote: »

->up to ME to prove this, seemingly

Well they think that it works so you would have to prove otherwise.

mkennedy wrote: »

->a lot of expense involved (trip to Dublin or send on an expensive phone) just to prove the obvious

This has absolutely nothing to do with the situation so stop bringing it up. It is not their fault where you live.

mkennedy wrote: »

->no guarantee of refund even if I did demonstrate incompatibility to them.

You are guarenteed a refund by law.

mkennedy wrote: »

If I bought online, from any distance seller(where obviously I couldn't try before I buy and couldn't easily physically drop it back into them), and the thing was NOT AS DESCRIBED, I couldn't get a refund?

That is a different situation - distance selling is covered specifically by law. You could have tried the item close by the shop if you had wanted to.

mkennedy wrote: »

Or is the fact that (in this particular case) I bought INSTORE rather than online making the difference here?

Yes, totally. When you buy online you cannot test the item in or near the shop so extra protection is needed so that when you do test the item away from the shop that you are covered.

mkennedy wrote: »

In other words if I bought instore I have to return it instore myself and show it doesn't work?

Yes or send the item back to them at your expense and get them to test it if they have that model at hand.

mkennedy wrote: »

If I bought online they're obliged to take it back without me having to PROVE to them it doesn't work???

Yes but if you were wrong then they could charge you for the postage fee.

If you are so sure you are right then just bring them to the small claims court. Worst case scenario is it costs you €9 and you learn how the small claims court works - best case scenario you get your money back.

What model of phone have you got btw?

mkennedy

Have you told them the model of phone you have?

Yes

I wouldn't expect that you would send your phone to the seller because if something happened to your phone it wouldnt be covered by anyone.

Yes i think it would be unreasonable to have to send on the phone in that way.
And if they're unprepared (and under no obligation) to refund without testing in some way, i suppose i'm stuck.

It wouldn't matter what they would say as you would be covered by law thus you con just take them to the small claims court. You can still do this if you want and display to them that it does not work.

Fair enough.
For 25 quid maybe not but it's good to know this for future reference.

Many times people say this regarding a product which turns out was being used incorrectly in the first place.

I've tried everything- believe me, i wish the thing worked with my phone.
Incidentally it does work (albeit after repeated attempts) with another more basic handset i have.
Now i'm doing exactly the same thing with the more expensive 3G handset and no way will it work in that...

Well they think that it works so you would have to prove otherwise.
This has absolutely nothing to do with the situation so stop bringing it up. It is not their fault where you live.

Fair enough.
But this is only because i bought instore i take it?
This would not apply if i bought it online?

That is a different situation - distance selling is covered specifically by law. You could have tried the item close by the shop if you had wanted to.

OK, admittedly this is something i may have not appreciated fully before-
So:
1) Buy instore->You need to go back to the shop and demonstrate incompatibility.
2) Buy online-> You don't need to do this. If you say it's incompatible they have to take it back and offer refund?

Yes, totally. When you buy online you cannot test the item in or near the shop so extra protection is needed so that when you do test the item away from the shop that you are covered.

OK.
I should've bought online so or atleast made sure to "try and buy" to not land in this situation.
What actually happened was i got someone to pick it up for me and send it on so no opportunity to "try and buy".
But then again since it was essentially falsely described i saw no reason to "try and buy".

Yes or send the item back to them at your expense and get them to test it if they have that model at hand.

They won't have the model (they didn't say they did anyway) so that wouldn't be much good.

What model of phone have you got btw?

HTC P3600. It's a 3G smartphone (but still a "3G phone" obviously).

craichoe

HTC P3600. It's a 3G smartphone (but still a "3G phone" obviously).

Oh dear, you should have said that a while ago, no SIM card adapter will work properly with a Windows smart phone, believe me I have a T-Mobile MDA, almost the same as yours.

If anything the adapter would have to be Windows Mobile aware, you can't just use a standard sim switch, in any event it will probably crash the phone.

You using Windows Mobile 6 or 5 ?

mkennedy

craichoe wrote: »

Oh dear, you should have said that a while ago, no SIM card adapter will work properly with a Windows smart phone, believe me I have a T-Mobile MDA, almost the same as yours.

If anything the adapter would have to be Windows Mobile aware, you can't just use a standard sim switch, in any event it will probably crash the phone.

You using Windows Mobile 6 or 5 ?

That's actually not true.
Here is another example of a dualsim adapter that works with various Windows Mobile phones:
http://www.simore.ch/en/mobile_phone_accessory/HTC

So some dualsim adapters obviously DO work with WM phones it would seem.

But the important point is:
If the dualsim adapter that I bought didn't work with WM phones, this fact was not explicitly stated on the website.
Instead It just said ALL 3G phones.
So it was falsely described I would've thought.

Unlike the one in the link above where it explicitly states which WM phones it works with and atleast you know where you stand.
(instead of just saying ALL 3G phones).

I'm using WM5 btw.

craichoe

mkennedy wrote: »

That's actually not true.
Here is another example of a dualsim adapter that works with various Windows Mobile phones:
http://www.simore.ch/en/mobile_phone_accessory/HTC

So some dualsim adapters obviously DO work with WM phones it would seem.

But the important point is:
If the dualsim adapter that I bought didn't work with WM phones, this fact was not explicitly stated on the website.
Instead It just said ALL 3G phones.
So it was falsely described I would've thought.

Unlike the one in the link above where it explicitly states which WM phones it works with and atleast you know where you stand.
(instead of just saying ALL 3G phones).

I'm using WM5 btw.

Nope, being an Expat in Holland theres tons of people i know from the UK that have tried and failed to use these Dualsim adapters, theres some images of WM5 that work and WM6, but its totally hit and miss. It makes the whole thing unstable or doesn't work at all.

i.e. You have WM5, update to WM6, doesn't work anymore, try a different WM6 image, works but is unstable.

You could try a different image on your phone
http://www.xda-developers.com/

I'm using the HTC Shamanix image with WM6 and it works quite well, has builtin VoIP support too and is really stable.

mkennedy

craichoe wrote: »

Nope, being an Expat in Holland theres tons of people i know from the UK that have tried and failed to use these Dualsim adapters, theres some images of WM5 that work and WM6, but its totally hit and miss. It makes the whole thing unstable or doesn't work at all.

i.e. You have WM5, update to WM6, doesn't work anymore, try a different WM6 image, works but is unstable.

You could try a different image on your phone
http://www.xda-developers.com/

I'm using the HTC Shamanix image with WM6 and it works quite well, has builtin VoIP support too and is really stable.

Are you saying the simore dualsim in the last link wouldn't work either?
On the simore site it details which WM phones are compatible with it.
For instance my P3600 would work according to their list.

But anyway as I said, that's not the point.
The point is if there is a "hit and miss" nature to these, this should have been pointed out on the phonevolts site and not just "it works with ANY 3G sim".
Even on ebay they always throw in this caveat.

Thanks for the general advice re. dual-sim adapters and WM phones.
I'll check out xda-developers as well, although i'm fairly sure that's where I found the link to the simore one- and most people there seemed happy with them.
I'd find it hard to believe the simore one wouldn't work with these devices if they explicitly state that they do.