Bio-Ethanol Conversion

ninty9er

So I finally did it after all the humming and hawning. Not the most technically minded, so I got a proper job done on it in a local garage. Was €570 all in.

So why some of you may ask (I know some of you aren't asking) did I do this?

The other week I passed a garage with prices up that looked like last January's $US exchange rate and had been thinking about this for a while anyway.

The promotional material was shiny:pac::pac: (I can send the pdf for anyone interested) and the price on that quoting last May's bio-ethanol price is the price I paid lastnight when I topped up the tank.

95.9c...still a bit steep considering there's consumption going to be lost on it, but I reckon it'll probably pay off in 18 months to 2 years.

There's a bit of a performance bonus included too, which can't hurt. And I get the green glow of environmentalism.... I know I know there are envirocons to it too, but overall it's probably better for the environment.

Now the cons...it'll take a while to turnover with 3/4 of a tank of petrol in it as the combustion ratios are different, bit it will still run perfectly with petrol only, so I'm not gonna get stranded in Bally-go-wegotsno-biofuel.

JHMEG

Would be interested in seeing the pdf alright. Why don't you attach it to a post, I reckon there'd be a lot of other ppl interested too.

Have you access to E85 over there? Thought it was only available in a couple of Maxols in Dublin.

ninty9er

Attached.

Also a list of Maxol stations providing E85.

rosboy

I'd definitely be interested in seeing the PDF too.

Did you say there was a performance increase in the car?

Edit: Sorry, you posted the pdf while i was senting my post. Thanks.

JHMEG

Very good, thanks for that.

I was looking at buying in a Full Flex Gold kit from the US and fitting it myself a while back. I'll ask you again in a while how you're getting on.

Do you notice much of a difference on E85 performance wise?

E92

This article is rather defensive of bio ethanol.

One of the more interesting things they say for the bio ethanol doubters is "Second-generation biofuels are being made from waste green matter, such as the by-products of the food processing and timber industries. Volkswagen, for example, has a shareholding in Iogen, a Canadian biotechnology company that
is developing a process that uses enzymes to turn timber waste and fast-growing grasses into ethanol."

If we could get bio ethanol to work, we would practically have solved the emissions problem overnight from cars.

And bio ethanol works of course in suitably adapted petrol engines too:)!

colly10

What parts did they replace, did they do the fuel tank and fuel lines, injectors?
What else?

ninty9er

I only had it done yesterday, so the performance difference will tell when all the unleaded is out of the system. I'm going to Dundalk tomorrow, so the return trip should tell as there are apparently 2 E85 pumps there.

Actually now that I look at the pdf....prices have come down to 95.9c. that's 75.5p....from my vague recollection of petrol prices it was around 1996?? the last time we saw those type of figures:eek::eek:

ninty9er

colly10 wrote: »

What parts did they replace, did they do the fuel tank and fuel lines, injectors?
What else?

They just do a mod on the cylinders and put an engine management unit in AFAIK. no new tank or lines or mechanical parts required.

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

What parts did they replace, did they do the fuel tank and fuel lines, injectors?
What else?

It's a unit that is wired inline with the injectors. A requirement for running on ethanol is that the injectors stay open for longer to all more fuel in.

Guy:Incognito

In the pdf it says that it is recommended to have 10% of th etank of unleaded. Is there any damage that could be doen running on 100% E85 all the time?

JHMEG

Stekelly wrote: »

In the pdf it says that it is recommended to have 10% of th etank of unleaded. Is there any damage that could be doen running on 100% E85 all the time?

That's kinda curious as E85 is 15% unleaded, so they're suggesting 25% unleaded. There can be a gunk build up in the fuel tank (esp in older cars) that E85 will "loosen" quite quickly.

http://www.fullflexint.com/pages/tips.htm wrote:

If you think you are a likely candidate for this issue, we recommend using your first few tanks and then changing the fuel filter as a preventative maintenance item rather than experiencing a problem when you are in a remote area.

colly10

JHMEG wrote: »

It's a unit that is wired inline with the injectors. A requirement for running on ethanol is that the injectors stay open for longer to all more fuel in.

But say if I put the boot to the floor, even if it is leaving them open longer it's still not going to be able to get the required amount of fuel in on time causing the car to run lean for a short period which will cause detonation.
Maybe thats not the case on all cars but thats the impression I got. €570 is cheap but are you getting a cheap job.
I've definitely read of bioethanol eating fuel lines/tanks before.

Matt Simis

Ive had my finger on the button to buy the Full Flex kit on eBay and install it myself. The only thing holding me back is the possible 25% hit to MPG. E85 at 0.95c a litre multiplied by 1.25 is about EUR1.18 which means it works out the same as regular petrol. Thats not including the advised 10% per tank of vanilla unleaded you are recommended to have in there too.

With a high compression engine (turbos etc) you could get a custom ECU remap to take advantage of the 100+ Octane you would be running, but this is again increased cost. Hmmm...

Good link with info: http://e85vehicles.com/e85/

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

But say if I put the boot to the floor, even if it is leaving them open longer it's still not going to be able to get the required

Injectors stay open for a fixed period anyway. With ethanol it's a bit longer than petrol, but nonetheless it's a fixed period. When you put the foot to the floor more air is let in allowing the engine to spin faster and the injectors to inject fuel more frequently.

colly10

JHMEG wrote: »

Injectors stay open for a fixed period anyway. With ethanol it's a bit longer than petrol, but nonetheless it's a fixed period. When you put the foot to the floor more air is let in allowing the engine to spin faster and the injectors to inject fuel more frequently.

It lets more air in and fuel to match ye? Say if you were previously seeing injector duty of 85% when you put the foot down and now since you changed to E85 you need to consume 25% more to get the AFR correct, then now even if the injector duty was 100% you would still not be getting enough fuel into the engine (as you'd need around 106%) so you would be running lean (unless you get bigger injectors)

Or have I totally got the wrong idea?

ninty9er

JHMEG wrote: »

That's kinda curious as E85 is 15% unleaded, so they're suggesting 25% unleaded. There can be a gunk build up in the fuel tank (esp in older cars) that E85 will "loosen" quite quickly.

While it's an E85 leaflet, it's a bio-ethanol conversion so E100 I assume, meaning the petrol is already taken care of. There ain't too many miles on my car but it was idle for a good while (18 months +) so I'll probably change the filter after 1500 miles or so.

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

It lets more air in and fuel to match ye?

Putting your foot to the floor does not increase injector duty. The Full Flex yoke does increase injector duty by a small amount when on ethanol, but I'm not sure how much. It doesn't seem to be a problem in typical engines... maybe at say 12,000rpm it would tho.

colly10

JHMEG wrote: »

Putting your foot to the floor does not increase injector duty. The Full Flex yoke does increase injector duty by a small amount when on ethanol, but I'm not sure how much. It doesn't seem to be a problem in typical engines... maybe at say 12,000rpm it would tho.

If you need 25% more fuel (when running E85) then I assume that the duty would need to be 25% more than it would be on petrol. If the duty before hit 85% when using standard petrol then your standard injectors would not be up to the job?

Sorry bout the questions, not arguing, just like learning bout this stuff, trying to get the head around it

JHMEG

ninty9er wrote: »

While it's an E85 leaflet, it's a bio-ethanol conversion so E100 I assume, meaning the petrol is already taken care of. There ain't too many miles on my car but it was idle for a good while (18 months +) so I'll probably change the filter after 1500 miles or so.

I think it's nearly taken for granted these days that "bioethanol" = E85. The only reason we don't have E100 is that it can be consumed and is quite cheap relatively speaking. Eg 8 litres of Coke and E100 = ~ €9 (and what a party!). Compare that to €11 euro in DUTY alone on a bottle of Whisky (VAT is extra) (someone has to pay for all that children's allowance:D).

Not a bad idea tho to change the fuel filter. It's a fairly simple job. Just open the filler cap first (relieves pressure in the tank from gasses and you don't get fuel p1ssing everywhere). A flick of the wrist undoes the banjo bolts on the filter.

Steve

ninty9er wrote: »

They just do a mod on the cylinders and put an engine management unit in AFAIK. no new tank or lines or mechanical parts required.

I thought the issue with bio-ethanol was that it corroded gaskets and seals in the fuel system

Were these replaced or was what I heard bullshit?

JHMEG

colly10 wrote: »

If you need 25% more fuel (when running E85) then I assume that the duty would need to be 25% more than it would be on petrol.

Have you stoichiometric mixes into account?

ninty9er

stevec wrote: »

I thought the issue with bio-ethanol was that it corroded gaskets and seals in the fuel system

Were these replaced or was what I heard bullshit?

I believe this was an issue with older cars alright.

Henry Ford III

What about the valve seats? Ithought these needed to be hardened to run long term on E85?

ninty9er

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What about the valve seats? Ithought these needed to be hardened to run long term on E85?

Unsure on that one....must check.

JHMEG

Henry Ford III wrote: »

What about the valve seats? Ithought these needed to be hardened to run long term on E85?

From what I've read, that seems to be one of the myths about an E85 conversion. I think you're more likely (tho not very) to have your fuel lines eaten.

Steve

ninty9er wrote: »

I believe this was an issue with older cars alright.

Hope it goes better for you than when Clarkson tried it for the silverstone 24hr race and it dissolved the fuel pump:D

JHMEG

stevec wrote: »

Hope it goes better for you than when Clarkson tried it for the silverstone 24hr race and it dissolved the fuel pump:D

Diesel pump, not fuel pump. They ran bio diesel. Nothing remotely close to bioethanol.

Steve

JHMEG wrote: »

Diesel pump, not fuel pump. They ran bio diesel. Nothing remotely close to bioethanol.

Ah, didn't cop that

/feels silly:o

ninty9er

I'm liking the optimistic attitude round here. My parents told me I was wasting my money (which btw I should have mentioned was another reason I got it done....the nice lads at Revenue repaid the loan I overpaid them last year:D:D:D).

All my mam's workmates told her it was a waste of money and one is a taxi driver so he must be right:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

It'll ruin my car apparently. We'll see who's laughing out the other side of their arse when the dollar hits 2 for one and oil skyrockets:p:p

JHMEG

ninty9er wrote: »

It'll ruin my car apparently.

And you deserve nothing less, ya feckin Fianna Failer.

But on a more serious note, if it all goes well for you, which I hope it does, I'll probably do the same conversion. (Gareth Fitzgerald rocks)