M7 - Castletown to Nenagh

slinky2000

Never had any issues with any of them myself.

dergside

If the workers haven't been paid then their grievance is wth their employer. The various reports highlight the fact that the workers are protesting with the support of their employer. Of course the employer is supportive because they've managed to convince the workers that their grievance is with someone else.

The chain of grievances goes back to whether the main contractor will offer some form of security to the CoCo if they pay over an amount of money, liability for which is in dispute. Ultimately this is our (taxpayers) money. I'd like to be sure that if the money is paid to the contractor but subsequent arbitration goes against them (remember the concept of fixed price contracts may be relevant) that there is some protection of my money that will ensure it is retrieved from the contractor. More contractors than county councils have gone bust this year, including ones that have worked on other parts of the M7.

One of the contractors in the consortium on the Birdhill/Limerick section was a McNamara company and they've since had a liquidator appointed if I'm not mistaken. We know nothing of the financial strength of either the main contractor or any subcontractors that would guarantee the return of the funds advanced if they lose the arbitration.

If the contractor was owed money from the stage payments of the fixed price contract I'd fully support them in looking for payment. In this case, the money in question is part of a claim for additional payments. There is nothing to say that they are entitled to those payments under contract. That's what the arbitration is about.

In the meantime, this may be no more than a red herring. Hypothetically speaking, the issues may be more to do with a cashflow problem with any one, some or all of the contractors on the project.

andykells

Caught the end of Joe Duffy saying that the Taoiseach will be opening the road on Friday in his own constituency. Not sure if any truth to this or if i heard wrong. Will try find out more later today

Doctrina Perpetua

As mentioned above, the workers brought their fight to Joe Duffy's liveline today. An engineer from KC civil engineering told Joe the road was due to be opened by an Taoiseach on Friday. He said the road was essentially finished and this week would have finished it. Another worker threatened that they would begin digging up the work that they have done if their wasn't a settlement by the end of the day. Its about time this disgrace is getting some national media attention.

Frank Black

There's no way the road will be opening on Friday. Regardless of whether it looks 'finished' or net. There are various procedures and testing to be carried out prior to the Contractor being issued a 'taking over' certificate by the Employer (Laois Co. Co). Best case scenario would be it opening to traffic just prior to Christmas with official opeing in new year.
Though given the problems with Bowens finances it's difficult to see how the various sub-contractors will be paid what's owed to them. I suspect the NRA will try to give Bowens some money 'on account' for the various claims in dispute.

Amtmann

Yes, on the one hand I want the workers to be paid. It's outrageous that they haven't been and I admire the stand they've taken. Fair play to them.

On the other hand, I want the road open. NOW. We've waited long enough, and with the run-up to Christmas and possible bad weather on the way, this section of the M7 could save someone from being maimed or killed on the old N7.

Get it sorted!

swingking

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/liveline/ Joe Duffy discussed it today. It is meant to open this Friday but the workers won't let it go ahead. Brian Cowen should step in to sort this problem out. The workers should have been paid

lukejr

dergside wrote: »

If the workers haven't been paid then their grievance is wth their employer. The various reports highlight the fact that the workers are protesting with the support of their employer. Of course the employer is supportive because they've managed to convince the workers that their grievance is with someone else.

I have to agree with this. As an employer you have to pay your employees, if the employer is slow getting paid from some else, then they must ensure that they have an adequate overdraft facility with the bank to cover expenses while they're waiting to be paid. So they can pay their employees on time and in full.

swoofer

Its a total and utter standoff, all talk with no action each blaming the other. The danger is if the main contactor gets the 20 million and does not pay their bills!!

This should go to disputes procedure, the amount extra is a given ie work was extra and has to be paid for, those who did the work should have first call, it is not the original contract.

Pay up for the work owing directly to those who did the work, then pay the rest to the main contractor ie his cut. If the total payout equals the arbitration amount then tough.

Oops I forgot its in biffo's patch, will take years to resolve, aka the by elections, the date for next so called election, and so on and so on.

We will be lucky if it opens by December 2011

What a pity.


gbcullen

9_Iron

ainiseoir wrote: »

Anybody got any tips on that roundabout where the motorway from Limerick to Dublin disappears. Leads on the the N7 for Toomevara, Nenagh etc.
I had trouble negotiating it in both directions in the small hours of the morning. The signposting seems hopelessly inadequate and my Sat Nav thinks the entire motorway is open for business!
I'm due to use it in a few days time. Just follow the "D" regs I suupose.

As another poster has noted, I assume you're talking about J24 (Toomevara) here, rather than J21 (Borris-in-Ossory)?

In which case, I wouldn't be too sure about following the "D" regs - they can be seen taking an extra spin or two on those roundabouts, from time to time ;-)

In fairness, it's not brilliantly signposted, especially for anyone travelling at night and/or not familiar with it. However, it is true to say that the road, in both directions, doesn't give you too many options than to go the right way.

From Dublin to Limerick is straightforward, as the N7 simply blends into the J24 flyover slip-road. As you approach the roundabout, the 2nd exit (across the flyover) is blocked off, so you can only take the 1st exit, which leads you down to the motorway proper.

From Limerick to Dublin is, presumably, where most people have trouble. Again, the main road (M7 in this case) blends into the J24 slip-road, with a fairly sharp left turn at the top of the ramp. From there you approach the Nenagh Road roundabout (1st exit for Nenagh, 2nd blocked off) and you take the 3rd exit, bringing you back the way you came and across the flyover.
On the far side of the flyover is a 2nd roundabout, and the 1st exit leads you down onto the N7 to Toomevara.

Not ideal, but, with a bit of luck, not for much longer either....

Sponge Bob

The lads on Joe Duffy ( item 1 on program) said they would start digging it up tomorrow the 15th.

Nuttzz

I hope these lads get paid and get this road open, however if they dig up what ever they did, then they are unlikely to get paid, and probably fecked off the site afterwards which another set of contractors completing the work, not a good idea

Dirigent

I see our exalted leader is now getting involved.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/1215/1224285578181.html

So the lads can expect to be invited to an allnight session in a local pub.

Deedsie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The lads on Joe Duffy ( item 1 on program) said they would start digging it up tomorrow the 15th.

That could be a dangerous game, vandalising someone elses property is not a great way to protest. As much as I want this road, and believe me I have been waiting a long time for it. If I was one of those unpaid workers I'd be the exact same. I will support the workers protest till they get paid for the work they have done. If the bailout gets voted in today, there will be plenty of money to pay them before the end of the week.

dergside

Dirigent wrote: »

I see our exalted leader is now getting involved.

If he's looking for reports we can forget about a December opening. A written report will take a month as a team of officials and a committee will be needed to ensure that its worded in a way that says SFA by way of real information and another month for it to be decoded for the recipient!

dergside

Deedsie wrote: »

I will support the workers protest till they get paid for the work they have done.

I have great sympathy for the workers too. Its a terrible time of the year to be left unpaid and the position of subcontractors in any construction sector is extremely precarious in these times.

As per my earlier post though, their grevience is with their employer in the first instance. There is a presumption here that the state is being slow to pay and that this is the trickle down effect of that. The state may not be obliged to pay some or all of it to the main contractor, depending on the contract. Even if they are obliged to pay the main contractor there is no guarantee that the money will trickle down through the various layers of contractor/subcontractor foodchain to these workers. It should, but we've seen enough of examples in our beloved country where the right thing is the last thing that happens when the poo hits the twirly thing on the ceiling.

In a situation like this every contractor and subcontractor is putting on the poor mouth so that their cashflow issues can be blamed on someone else but the moral and legal responsibility for paying these workers lies with their employer.

Whatever chain of dispute their employer is involved in it is a business issue and their (employers) responsibility. The employess should not be the losers in that game of poker regardless of the outcome at a business level.

123easy

The employer (LCC/NRA/taxpayer of Ireland) is legally and contractually insulated from the sub-contractor by the main contractor by virtue of the conditions of contract. The dispute is solely between the subbie and the main contractor. We have done enough bailing out in this country to do us for the rest of the century.

There are many disputes of this nature on the go at the moment in both building and civils. This will continue to be the way until or if Fergal Quinn gets the reforms through in this area.

In relation to the threats to dig up the road - they cant legally do that

dergside

123easy wrote: »

The employer (LCC/NRA/taxpayer of Ireland) is legally and contractually insulated from the sub-contractor by the main contractor by virtue of the conditions of contract.

Correct, but technically LCC/NRA is the client rather than the employer in this case.

baldy78

123easy wrote: »

The employer (LCC/NRA/taxpayer of Ireland) is legally and contractually insulated from the sub-contractor by the main contractor by virtue of the conditions of contract. The dispute is solely between the subbie and the main contractor. We have done enough bailing out in this country to do us for the rest of the century.

There are many disputes of this nature on the go at the moment in both building and civils. This will continue to be the way until or if Fergal Quinn gets the reforms through in this area.

In relation to the threats to dig up the road - they cant legally do that

The dispute is between the sub-contractors and their employees! Very unusual that these workers are side stepping the issue that their employer hasn't paid them and blaming everybody else.

spacetweek

123easy wrote: »

This will continue to be the way until or if Fergal Quinn gets the reforms through in this area.

Do you have more info on this? What changes are planned?

123easy wrote: »

In relation to the threats to dig up the road - they cant legally do that

Exactly, they'll never be paid if they do and some other company will be brought in to repair it.

Guaranteed this road will open before the end of the year - FF needs the positive PR right now.

Irish and Proud

This from the NRA:

Public Statement - M7 Castletown–Nenagh

The M7 Castletown-Nenagh scheme is 36km of motorway being built by Bowen (Irish) and Somague (Portuguese) a joint venture. They have a contract with Laois County Council, and Laois County Council is being funded by the National Roads Authority.

Laois County Council has made all contractually due payments under the contract. However, Bowen Somague is in dispute with Laois County Council over extra payments, and a Conciliator has recommended that they be paid significant monies for some of their claims. Laois County Council, supported by the NRA, are disputing these claims, although we all agree that some monies are due to Bowen/Somague.

A conciliator has recommended that a significant payment be made to Bowen/Somague and Laois County Council is willing to do so, provided the contractor provide a bond for these monies, thus protect the taxpayer’s interest during the dispute process. This is in accordance with the terms of the contract, which is under the Department of Finance Design / Build conditions of contract.

Neither Laois County Council nor the NRA can intervene in the dispute between Bowen Somague and their sub-contractors as that is a private contractual matter. However we are very sympathetic to the position of those who have not been paid, and will continue to pursue resolution of the situation, without spending public money inappropriately.

http://www.nra.ie/News/PressReleases/htmltext,17727,en.html

What kind of laws do we have in this country?

Irish and Proud

123easy wrote: »

The employer (LCC/NRA/taxpayer of Ireland) is legally and contractually insulated from the sub-contractor by the main contractor by virtue of the conditions of contract. The dispute is solely between the subbie and the main contractor. We have done enough bailing out in this country to do us for the rest of the century.

There are many disputes of this nature on the go at the moment in both building and civils. This will continue to be the way until or if Fergal Quinn gets the reforms through in this area.

In relation to the threats to dig up the road - they cant legally do that

IMO, the fact that sub-contractors seem so angered that they are threatening to dig up the road reflects once again the serious lack of governance in Ireland. If I had my way, if a sub contractor is not paid upon satisfactory completion, then the main contractor would have to pay the money plus interest at a very punitive 15%pa. I would also expose the main contractor to the possibility of foreclosure including personal property - even residential property, family or no family. If the sub contractors did damage the road, then something would have to be done about it - it couldn't be allowed, but the main contractor would still foot the bill I presume.

Ridiculous! :mad:

knipex

Irish and Proud wrote: »

IMO, the fact that sub-contractors seem so angered that they are threatening to dig up the road reflects once again the serious lack of governance in Ireland. If I had my way, if a sub contractor is not paid upon satisfactory completion, then the main contractor would have to pay the money plus interest at a very punitive 15%pa. I would also expose the main contractor to the possibility of foreclosure including personal property - even residential property, family or no family. If the sub contractors did damage the road, then something would have to be done about it - it couldn't be allowed, but the main contractor would still foot the bill I presume.

Ridiculous! :mad:

Looka t it this way.

Main contractor has not been paid so he has no money to pay his subcontractors so they have no money to pay their employees.

The main contracts is due to be paid what he is owed but only if they put up a bond to ensure that if on appeal any portion of these monies are found not to be actually due that they are refunded.

In a normal situation the main contractor would go to the bank or its parent companies and the bond would be put in place, the subcontractors would get a line of credit based on the invoices due to them.

However these are not normal times. Lines of credit are difficult to come by particularly for anyone in the construction trade. Every bank is terrified to touch them. (would you lend money to a construction company ?)

Under law the fault for the workers not being paid lies squarely on the subcontractors. They in turn have a legal obligation to be paid based on their contracts.

The dispute is between the workers and their direct employers, the dispute between the subcontractors and the main contractor should be an entirely different matter.

Garda S Horgan

God only knows the small print in those contracts and there are so many groups. I've sure that each one can point to a paragraph which says that the current action being taken, whether it's protesting or doing nothing or not making payments, is valid and according to their contract.

In the end someone will have to be the first one to take a step forward and it looks to me like the government need to intervene to get this motorway opened.

That is is not open already is a shame.

My view on it is that employers should not blame the fact that they are not paying their employees becuase they themselves have not been paid.
The employers should pay the employees and then continue to chase their own employers for the money.
Waiting for the whole thing to trickle down is going to take forever with a county council involved.

Yours etc,
GSH.

ForiegnNational

Irish and Proud wrote: »

IMO, the fact that sub-contractors seem so angered that they are threatening to dig up the road reflects once again the serious lack of governance in Ireland. If I had my way, if a sub contractor is not paid upon satisfactory completion, then the main contractor would have to pay the money plus interest at a very punitive 15%pa. I would also expose the main contractor to the possibility of foreclosure including personal property - even residential property, family or no family.

Whilst this is a lovely theory I&P, I'm afraid you just have to look at the house building sector to see this is wishful thinking. Fleming construction down here in West Cork went under owing sub-contractors hundreds of thousands of pounds.

As Fleming Developments is a Limited Company, the directors are only exposed to the limit of their shareholding.

You will note that Mr Fleming himself made an exit to live in the UK and is now filing for bankruptcy under much more favourable laws.

End result is that the sub-contractors lose everything. This is the way it works under current legislation I'm afraid!

dergside

ForiegnNational wrote: »

As Fleming Developments is a Limited Company, the directors are only exposed to the limit of their shareholding.

You will note that Mr Fleming himself made an exit to live in the UK and is now filing for bankruptcy under much more favourable laws.

IIRC, some of Flemings companies were actually unlimited, registered in that way to avoid having to file detailed accounts. A lot of developers did this in the noughties to avoid scrutiny of their business affairs.

This means that the shareholders can be pursued for their personal assets in the event of insolvency. This is likely why a number of them have departed these shores for juristictions that have more benign bankruptcy rules. This way they will lose assets (those that weren't owned by relatives, wives, etc.) but can walk away from the deficits of assets over liabilities more quickly and hope to get back in the saddle again.

trap4

RTE Six One News this evening reported that the opening of the final section of the M7 might now be delayed by up to two years. Tell me I was hallucinating... please.

lukejr

RTÉ did a piece on this on the Six One news, saying it could be in the courts for years. I haven't seen it, just waiting for RTÉ Player to update.

Elegant Chaos

9 o'clock news repeated the "two year" delay possibility but gave no explanation as to why it might take so long. This is very depressing - it's not only the convenience and efficiency of the motorway that we're missing out on. That stretch between B-I-O and Nenagh is witness to some of the more crazy driving that you'll see around these days. If someone gets seriously injured or killed on the old N7 it'll be a real tragedy.

rainbowdash

Why would it be held up for 2 years? I doubt the workers could sustain a protest that long and they seem to be the ones delaying it.

They won't get sympathy much longer from the public. Presumably the main contractor would open the road and deal with the matter in the courts, which is the correct way to deal with it.