Insurance discs and road traffic law.

Steve

The question "is it legal to drive an otherwise uninsured vehicle when your own policy includes driving other cars?" seems to arise from time to time in motoring fora and I see it was debated here once or twice as well.

In my search for legislation relating to this, I have gained more questions than answers.

So- the hypothetical situation is:

Johnny Driver has a car, fully insured and all is well. His policy, for the sake of argument, allows him to drive any other car that he does not own.

His mate has a car which is road legal in every way apart from having an insurance disc. His mate does not have insurance because ----insert random reason here---.

How does Johnny legally drive his mates car?

The relevant legislation as far as I can tell is:

ROAD TRAFFIC ACT, 1961
ROAD TRAFFIC (INSURANCE DISC) REGULATIONS, 1984.
ROAD TRAFFIC (INSURANCE DISC) (AMENDMENT) REGULATIONS, 1986.

The first point that caught my attention was article 3 in the 1984 regulations.

3. (1) Where a certificate of insurance is issued to a person, the vehicle insurer shall issue to such person one insurance disc for each vehicle to which the certificate relates.

The question it raises is:
If Johnnys insurance certificate entitles him to theoretically drive 'any' vehicle, how does the insurance company comply with this with respect to the issue of a disc?

If Johnny contacts the insurance company and asks for a disc so he can drive his mates car, are they obliged to issue one?

Have I missed something?

The second question that arises is more based on hearsay than legislation on the subject so I hope it's ok to quote this from a previous debate here:
From http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=53824872&postcount=5

Seamus wrote:

Note though that it is an offence to drive a vehicle in a public place without a valid insurance disc. So from that angle, in order to legally drive the vehicle, then yes it does have to be insured other than on your policy. This is probably why the "Other vehicle must be insured" myth appeared.

The hypothetical situation is changed so that Johnnys mate is fully insured and has a "valid" insurance disc on display.

I have read the regulations concerned and can not find the actual term "valid" used, only references to "an insurance disc". I assume, though, compliance with article 6 would qualify it as being "valid".

This then leads to the question:

Is the insurance disc "valid" if the driver has nothing to do with the policy details detailed on it and is in no way insured by the said policy?

I can't find anything in the legislation to cover this, does that imply that it's OK to have essentially false details (in the situation) displayed on the disc?

I'd appreciate any comments you have.:)



p.s. When I asked my solicitor (OH) about this I was told "stop fec**n around on the internet, it's your turn to make dinner and have ya put the bin out yet":mad:

Gobán Saor

stevec wrote: »

p.s. When I asked my solicitor (OH) about this I was told "stop fec**n around on the internet, it's your turn to make dinner and have ya put the bin out yet":mad:

ROFL :D

Um, seriously, sounds like a good question. I suppose you COULD write to the local Superintendent and ask an innocent question as to how best you should comply with the law;)

Or you could ask the insurance company for a disc for the mate's car.

Or you could try the argument that if the insurance policy is valid for driving the mate's car, then the disc is valid too. In fiarness, if the policy did cover the driving of the car AND you had it in your possession while driving, I think it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that a Garda would pursue you for the disc.

But it's an interesting question.

Our man in Havana

Most of these type of policy have a sting in the tail, saying that the other vehicle must be covered by a policy of insurance.

Steve

Gobán Saor wrote: »

Or you could try the argument that if the insurance policy is valid for driving the mate's car, then the disc is valid too. In fiarness, if the policy did cover the driving of the car AND you had it in your possession while driving, I think it would be EXTREMELY unlikely that a Garda would pursue you for the disc.

The disc (Johnnys disc) isn't valid under article 6 on his mates uninsured (or insured) car:

6. No person shall, either by writing, drawing or in any other matter alter, deface, mutilate or add anything to any insurance disc for any vehicle, nor shall any person exhibit upon any vehicle any insurance disc which has been altered, defaced, mutilated or added to as aforesaid, or upon which the figures or particulars have become illegible or the colour has become altered by fading or otherwise, not shall any person exhibit any colourable imitation of any insurance disc or any insurance disc which has been issued in respect of another vehicle or any insurance disc which has become void nor shall any figures or letters, design or ornamentation be placed near to an insurance disc in such a manner as to render it more difficult to read nor shall anything be exhibited at or near the insurance disc, in such a manner as to render it more difficult to observe an insurance disc on a vehicle when in motion.

So the only option is to get a disc issued by the insurer.
Are they obliged to do this under article 3?

I agree, the Guards would probably accept the insurance certificate, that's not what this is about.

I'm wondering how insurance companies are complying with article 3 if their cover extends in theory to any car.

Bond-007 wrote:

Most of these type of policy have a sting in the tail, saying that the other vehicle must be covered by a policy of insurance.

I've yet to see this actually written on a policy.

For the sake of this debate, let's assume it's not there.

The other point I am making is that if Johnnys mate has insurance and has a valid disc on the car, if Johnny drives it - does it not then become invalid due to the fact that the details on it have nothing to do with the insurance that is covering the driver at that time?

Again, there is no mention of the word "valid" in the SIs.

Links:
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1984/en/si/0355.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1986/en/si/0227.html
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/index.html

Johnny Utah

Afaik the provisions in insurance policies which allow you to drive other cars are subject to the other car itself having a valid insurance policy. Therefore, if you drive your mate's car which has no insurance on it, then your own insurance policy would become void, and you would be driving your mate's car without insurance.

Also in re discs, you would have to display all the requiste discs in order to be legal. If your friend has a valid insurance policy then obviously this is no problem. But, again, if your friend did not have insurance obviously he wouldn't have the insurance disc. If you were driving the car in this state, you would be committing a separate offence of not displaying an insurance disc.
(I've heard of people being prosecuted for not displaying a motor tax disc, even though they had in fact paid for the motor tax. They just forget to display it on the windscreen and probably put it in the glovebox by mistake. They were taken to court nonetheless.)