Is the term "Go to a Doctor <thread locked>" overused in PI?

davyjose

Just noticed how a girl on PI was told to see a doctor when she stated she was losing her hair, and then the thread was locked for no apparent reason.
Now, I'm not sure, but I would imagine this is a fairly traumatic event for any young lady, and could perhaps have been better dealt with than been dismissed like that. I don't see how a girl can say she's an alcoholic and not get the same treatment, if this blanket statement is being used. Frankly, it strikes me as lazy, cynical modding.
If we ever hear from that poor girl again, I'd liketo think she'll get better treatment next time.

Rabies

Medical problems need medical treatment.

It is best not to take internet advice.

Correct action taken.

kaimera

Perhaps she just needed someone to talk to and wasn't looking for adivce on what to do?

haven't read PI thread

davyjose

kaimera wrote: »

Perhaps she just needed someone to talk to and wasn't looking for adivce on what to do?

haven't read PI thread

This was my slant on it. There's nothing wrong with telling someone to seek medical attention, but that's no reason to close the thread.

Rabies wrote: »

Medical problems need medical treatment.

It is best not to take internet advice.

Correct action taken.

Why then would Ricey and Fingerscrossed's thread remain unlocked? They need professional help a lot more than someone with possible mild alopecia, surely?

cormie

What about suggesting a site like this: http://earthclinic.com/CURES/hair_loss.html ? Would that put boards in a risky position? It's natural remedies only..

That earthclinic site is brilliant and once Again, Apple Cider Vinegar seems to do the trick for another cure.

Everyone should check out some of the things on that site, really interesting and remember folks, doctors only know so much. Take cancer and HIV/Aids for example, apparently there is substantial evidence that sticking to a raw food diet will actually cure and rid your body of both diseases simply because you are not eating any bad foods with toxins etc, so the viruses have nothing to live off. Compared to the likes of chemotherapy etc which try and fight the disease with other things that aren't exactly good for your body.

Faith

As a mod, I can see where Gordon was coming from. However, as a woman, if started losing my hair, it would be extremely traumatic for me. I'd probably feel too ashamed to talk to my friends about it and I can understand why she posted in PI. It's very likely she just wanted some reassurance.

Perhaps the thread could have been left open, with a warning to only post support and not medical advice.

faceman

this is one of the issues i have with PI, although I do understand the reasons.

To give a more obvious example, i remember a thread where the user had a lump (AFAIK) and was scared about going to the doctor. he wanted advice on what it could be or chance of having cancer (or something to that effect)

Anyway the thread was locked and the OP was told to go see his GP. Not really a helpful solution. To me the thread should have been steered towards encouraging the user to visit his GP rather than tell him we cant give medical advice etc.

The above example is a more obvious one but it does appear from many threads that the reason people post is out of fear of visiting the doc and getting the worst case scenario. Locking a thread and saying go see your GP isnt going to make the user say that.

That being said I appreciate that this is a internet message forum and we dont know who are qualified doctors or counsellors on the mod team.

but often we see young influential people looking for help and can appear to be vulnerable. an uneducated response can be unhelpful or possibly make the situation worse.

Given the high volume in PI, would it be worth getting advice from the experts on how to steer users towards seeking professional help when scenarios arise?

Oryx

I was in the same position as the op, (I think. I havent read the thread) and the doctor had fobbed me off with a put up with it attitude. It was actually a post on Boards that tipped me off to what might actually be wrong, it gave me a new cause to look into. I went back to my doctor, she agreed it was a possibility, we looked at solving it, and my hair is growing back.

So I can see where the OP is coming from, and I cant see the harm in posters giving advice and suggestions as long as that information is purely a suggestion that needs to be checked out medically before being acted upon.

Sherifu

On my reading of PI it's similar to the way legal discussion works. It depends on how the problem is initially worded as to whether it passes by the mods or not. If the OP had already gone to a doctor and was looking for advice because she was feeling down about it, it would be left open I imagine. In this case the OP was more or less asking for medical advice on whether it would grow back. It's a tough board to mod and you can't please everyone. I think in this case it was the right call to lock it and tell her to go see a doctor.

Marksie

I have had a look at the post. I think Gordon got the call right.

Sherifu is on the money when he talks about initial wording and its the last sentence really that makes it look like she is asking for medical advice.

In the end the "doc and lock" is the default option and the safest.

if the OP had asked for others with experience of this then it would have been a different matter. That is for example, why those asking for experiences in the contraceptive pill are generally ok.

In the end, erring on the side of caution is the best way in these matters

Jack B. Badd

faceman wrote: »

To give a more obvious example, i remember a thread where the user had a lump (AFAIK) and was scared about going to the doctor. he wanted advice on what it could be or chance of having cancer (or something to that effect)

Anyway the thread was locked and the OP was told to go see his GP. Not really a helpful solution. To me the thread should have been steered towards encouraging the user to visit his GP rather than tell him we cant give medical advice etc.

According to what you've posted, the OP in this case was encouraged to visit his GP - he was told outright to visit his GP before the thread was locked. If he wasn't going to listen to that then all the sugar coating in the world wouldn't have helped.

In the case, that davyjose mentioned about the girl losing her hair, her post is written so that it appears that she is looking for a diagnosis so I can understand the closure. Even with constant monitoring by the mods you're still probably going to get someone who reckons they can perform a diagnosis and advise on treatment over the net (see cormie's post above).

cormie

Jack B. Badd wrote: »

: Even with constant monitoring by the mods you're still probably going to get someone who reckons they can perform a diagnosis and advise on treatment over the net (see cormie's post above).

Well I'm just saying that going to see your doctor may not be the best solution for some things as doctors may not know about the best solutions. In terms of having HIV/Cancer, there is no cure in the doctors world but yet substantial evidence of a cure in the natural therapy/diet world.

Esel

cormie wrote: »

Well I'm just saying that going to see your doctor may not be the best solution for some things as doctors may not know about the best solutions. In terms of having HIV/Cancer, there is no cure in the doctors world but yet substantial evidence of a cure in the natural therapy/diet world.

Cormie, don't go flaky on us!

Wibbs

It's a hard line to thread. I think if it's about fellow experiences of a medical nature then fine, but when specific, possibly risky advice or over the web diagnosis comes into it, then morally if nothing else I think frowning on that is correct. As I said it's sometimes hard to call. I've seen threads before I was modding where I may well have left it open or deleted the specific medical advice and let the thread continue.

I dont envy the mods in long term illness who have to deal with this on a daily basis I would imagine.

cormie wrote: »

What about suggesting a site like this: http://earthclinic.com/CURES/hair_loss.html ? Would that put boards in a risky position? It's natural remedies only..

Maybe and I can see where you're coming from but some "natural" remedies can have effects on other treatments. There may be inconsistencies too. Indeed one of the posters on that site requests a warning and clarification on one of the remedies that actually caused her hair to fall out because of improper dosage.

That earthclinic site is brilliant and once Again, Apple Cider Vinegar seems to do the trick for another cure.

Hey I have used cider vinegar as a shampoo myself. Nettle tea too. Very good with dandruff at leats for me. Far better than dandruff shampoos again for me.

Take cancer and HIV/Aids for example, apparently there is substantial evidence that sticking to a raw food diet will actually cure and rid your body of both diseases

You see there's the problem. There have been some studies which showed some effect, but nothing like substantial. Do you think that doctors themselves who have had relatives and friends die from cancer not know this. It can't do any harm and is likely much better for you, but a cure except in the rarest of cases?

simply because you are not eating any bad foods with toxins etc, so the viruses have nothing to live off.

Again you seem to have little appreciation for how this stuff works. Virusessss(:)) don't live off toxins. They're not really alive in the general sense anyway. They live off piggy backing on your cells and using them to reproduce. While your toxin load may impact your immune response it's little to do with the virus itself. Cancer is an entirely different disease. While it can be triggered by a virus it isn't one. It's a dangerous mutation of your own cells. Toxins can also cause cancer of course, but removal of toxins won't magically cure an already cancerous cell. Would that it was that simple. In any case what do you define as a toxin? Even pure water at a high enough dosage is a "toxin". Many vitamins are toxic at quite low doses. Even at suplement level there are a few vitamins and pre vitamins that may increase mortality. Beta carotene and smokers is a famous one. It massively increased the risk of lung cancer, to the point where the study had to be cut short on moral grounds. Every alternative type at the time(and some doctors too) were praising it as an anti cancer agent. This stuff is more complex.

Compared to the likes of chemotherapy etc which try and fight the disease with other things that aren't exactly good for your body.

Again a very simplistic view of the therapy.

I only quote that as an illustration of how opinions and knowledge may differ and how complex the area is. Throwing that into the mix of a medical problem on a bulletin board is a recipe for disaster IMHO.

This is not me agreeing because of being a PI mod either. Many's the time I have disagreed with one decision or other, but looking at the bigger picture that's rare enough.

Wibbs

cormie wrote: »

Well I'm just saying that going to see your doctor may not be the best solution for some things as doctors may not know about the best solutions. In terms of having HIV/Cancer, there is no cure in the doctors world but yet substantial evidence of a cure in the natural therapy/diet world.

Again not quite true. There are in fact many cancers that can be "cured" or managed to the point where they're not an issue. Testicular cancer springs to mind. Many luekemias too. In fact(docs chime in here) if caught early enough most could be. If you caught some normally incurable lung tumour a few months after it started it would probably be curable. At some point all cancers start with one cell going batshít. If you get it then all concers would be curable. The detection is often the issue. Similar goes for "curing" HIV. People can live with it for far longer now than they could 20 or even 10 years ago. That gap is getting bigger in the developed world. OK vaccines and a full cure are still a way off but we'll likely get there and it's more likely through science than supposition on raw food diets.

Jack B. Badd

cormie wrote: »

Well I'm just saying that going to see your doctor may not be the best solution for some things as doctors may not know about the best solutions. In terms of having HIV/Cancer, there is no cure in the doctors world but yet substantial evidence of a cure in the natural therapy/diet world.

Nonetheless, this has nothing to do with the topic at hand. If this were a PI rather than a Feedback thread, whether the treatment you are advocating is natural/alternative or not, the only medical advise that should be dispensed is "Go to a doctor". See here.

FingersCrossed

I wasn't looking for medical advice in my thread, just others experiences of going through the same withdrawal. I was aware before posting that asking for Medical Advice wasn't permitted on the forum. If I wanted medical advice from the internet theres millions of sites I could have gone to, at my peril.

I think this thread asks, and answers the original question. If the guy who posted last week about the lump found in his testicle, and received Cormies advice (sorry Cormie, not saying that you would have posted it) he could have ordered some "herbal" remedy from the internet and died of testicular cancer. Its too dangerous to allow medical suggestions.

I wouldn't recommend anyone stopping drinking the way I did, but there was plenty of posters and Mods on the thread advising against it, so I think it was a fair balance.

I'll always be grateful for the help and support I got there, and I can see how difficult it must be to moderate.

My tuppence worth.

cormie

cormie wrote: »

..

That earthclinic site is brilliant and once Again, Apple Cider Vinegar seems to do the trick for another cure.

Take cancer and HIV/Aids for example, apparently there is substantial evidence that sticking to a raw food diet will actually cure and rid your body of both diseases simply because you are not eating any bad foods with toxins etc, so the viruses have nothing to live off. Compared to the likes of chemotherapy etc which try and fight the disease with other things that aren't exactly good for your body.

Wow.They have cured AIDS annnnnd Cancer.Somebody ring the WHO:rolleyes:!

Viruses aren't aliveby the way.

cormie

I'm just going by what I've been told by somebody who has been doing a lot of research on the raw food diet lately. He says there is substantial evidence anyway But yes, other than the possibility of it curing you, it's still a much healthier lifestyle to lead so there's no negatives about being on a raw food diet. So if I thought I had cancer, I'd go to the doc straight away and probably become a raw foodest straight away too.

I don't know the ins and outs of medical science and I'm not claiming to at all, just going by what I've been told by somebody who has researched the subject quite extensively. It could be other factors besides toxins which the diet attributes to. And no need for the cheek Dazzler

Marksie

Deleted User wrote: »

Viruses aren't aliveby the way.

Toitally off topic i know, but that could very well be disputed effectively and make a giood essay for us microbiologists.
As they contian nucleic acids, effectively hijack the host cell and get it to replicate.
Now Prions, self replicating proteins..there is an intersting definition of is it alive

Hitchhiker's Guide to...

cormie wrote: »

Well I'm just saying that going to see your doctor may not be the best solution for some things as doctors may not know about the best solutions. In terms of having HIV/Cancer, there is no cure in the doctors world but yet substantial evidence of a cure in the natural therapy/diet world.

no offence cormie - but posts like this are the reason that they "doc and lock" medical threads in PI.

bubonicus

Would anybody consider whats in this thread to be medical advice?

cormie

I know, and I can't blame them, they have their site to protect and it does sound slightly crazy but apparently it's true. Of course questions like "why hasn't this hit the news then" come up. But when I said better solutions than a doctor I meant going to the likes of a nutritionist instead of a doctor for certain things.

Gordon

You have also got to understand the timescale of things. If that thread was left open you may have certain helpful posts and certain posts that tell of personal experiences relevant to the OPs experience. But then, you will have people that either deliberately or unintentionally give incorrect advice - and there aren't any moderators around. If a mod isn't around and people start to give bad advice then we (the mods) get sh*t for not acting in time. So, if in doubt - we lock and doc, that's it.

Also, in this particular case the user was wanting medical/dermatological advice. PI isn't a medical advice forum.

tallaght01

bubonicus wrote: »

Would anybody consider whats in this thread to be medical advice?

The thread referred to here is a thread asking about controlling the symptoms of scalp psoriasis. In this case:

A) The OP had a diagnosis of scalp psoriasis already made

The poster was looking for tips on the best over the counter meds for his/her dry scalp. They just talked about shampoos and diet and smoking etc. There is no cure for psoriasis, so no-one was looking for cures.I remember the thread well, and I kept a very close eye on it. It's Just like people on the long term illness forum who ask each other about what helps their migraines etc. If you look through the biology/medicine forum, you'll see that we lock a LOT of threads for asking for medical advice. It's our most common problem.

But the thread in question was pretty harmless.The forum is modded by medical doctors, so I think we apply common sense in terms of locking threads when the request is inappropriate.
I think that's why it's a good idea to have 3 docs moderating biology and medicine.

I think the "lock and doc" approach in PI is a crock of ****. It's mostly only people who have somatic, physical problems who are told to go see their doc. Many people with emotional problems who should be getting help are just left to the mercy of people who sometimes think they know a lot more about psychology than they do, or who think they are more worldly wise than they are.

This isn't always the case, but it often is. These people often appear very vulnerable, and shouldn't be fodder for our amusement. I know people who are involved in posting in PI often genuinely think they're doing the right thing. I also know from past conversation about this, that those same people get offended by my opinions about PI, which is fair enough. I can see where they're coming from, so I won't say anymore.

It's just my 2c.

bubonicus

I thanked your reply Tallaght.

But my concern would be. Somebody with a medical condition asked for medication to threat it. To me that's medical advice. Even if you are doctors, I still think if the person takes medical advice from an internet forum and something goes wrong they are going to blame somebody?

just my 2c.

Overheal

I dunno. If a doctor/mod wants to put their PHD where their mouth is that would be different. And by that I mean linking their real life persona and qualifications to their User ID..?

tallaght01

Thanks bubonicus. I do actually take your point. Previously on bio+med, we took the stance that if someone was asking for peoples' opinions on harmless over the counter meds for a condition that had already been diagnosed, then we let it be.

However, we recently started our own feedback thread on the bio+medicine forum, asking peoples' opinon on the forum, and made it a sticky. One of the things that cropped up was that people were sick of even these types of threads. So, since then, we've had a pretty much zero tolerance approach to any threads asking advice about a personal medical issue, regardless of how harmless it seems to be.

We do try and still use a degree of common sense. But, in fairness, the thread you've mentioned would very likely get locked immediately since our own in-house feedback thread.

I don't like having hard and fast rules, especially when just talking about things like shampoos, but I do take your point, and it's a reasonable one.

Wibbs

While I take tallaght01's points a forum like PI by it's very nature will involve people looking for advice from others on personal issues. Otherwise call it the big dandelion fun bus forum or close it.

Of course there is a sliding scale. If someone appears to have serious emotional problems or the beginnings of same there will be many suggesting counseling of some nature or other and rightfully so. At times that call can even be all too repetitive. Similarly when it comes to legal advice too on divorce/seperation etc.

Given that a good majority of the issues that do crop up there are of a relationship nature, or of a "minor" issue hardly requiring any form of medical intervention/counseling, then getting different opinions is hardly harmful. Their own friends will give them similar advice. PI posters are just adding to that. Sometimes it's something they wouldn't want to share with friends and/or family and the anonymity of the interweb lets them get it out. Sometimes just the act of writing the stuff in the first place may help.

The other difference to a physical illness issue is that most people will have some insight, good or bad into the emotional problem the poster may have. I don't have psoriasis so any advice(which I wouldn't give anyway) would be pointless beyond see a specialist. I have been dumped, I have been heartbroken, I have been bereaved, I have been frustrated etc, so I and others may have an angle on this that may prove useful to the poster. It's not really a valid comparison.

In any case, like any profession counseling has its share of muppets. Indeed it seems to have more than it's fair share. Pretty much anyone can set themselves up and call themselves one to boot. Indeed I can think of more than one poster who was given utterly and obvious to anyone daft advice by a counselor. In those cases the majority of the posters suggested a different counselor.

As for amusement fodder, any guff like that is usually stamped on bloody quick. Píss taking of any nature is not tolerated.

DeVore

If a medical issue is serious enough that the op is either in danger or angered by the thread being locked, then it is already waaay too serious to be dealt with here.

DeV.

seamus

bubonicus wrote: »

I thanked your reply Tallaght.

But my concern would be. Somebody with a medical condition asked for medication to threat it. To me that's medical advice. Even if you are doctors, I still think if the person takes medical advice from an internet forum and something goes wrong they are going to blame somebody?

just my 2c.

Theoretically there's a stupidity filter built into law though.

Any treatments which are likely to cause harm to the poster are going to be prescription-only. Anything else may not work as a recommended treatment, but shouldn't be dangerous to the poster.

Of course, common sense always applies and posts such as, "Washing your hair in Parozone will cure psoriasis" will always be removed/banned.