"Our reign of terror, by the Israeli army" from The Independent.co.uk

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

One more thing that is worth remembering, is that the Palestinians have disguised themselves as journalists in the past, in order to get close to Israeli soldiers and attack them.

Any evidence of that in this case? No, there isn't.

In fact the story IDF is saying is that they didn't know they were journalist at all. You even say that in your own post. So how is that even relevant to this instance? So what your saying doesn't make much sense, when it pertains to this instance at all. Your own post invalidates the point your trying to make, as you say the they couldn't have possibly know they were media.

Also, you refer to Palestinians as opposed to Islamic Jihad or militants. I think that is very telling, that you didn't refer to the group and just referred to them as Palestinians.

Why didn't you mention the group who did that? Also, is this a common tactic used by Islamic Jihad or other militants? Is it just that one instance or are multiple instances? How is it relevant to the the recent incident, especially since you claim the IDF soldiers involved could not have know they were media?

Also, I think everyone should know the following about Honest Reporting.com:

From Sourcewatch.com

Honest Reporting (also HonestReporting or honestreporting.com) is a pro-Israeli media watchdog group that monitors the media for allegedly negative portrayals of Israel. It is registered as a non-profit 501(c)(3) group in the US, a non-profit group in Canada, a charitable organization in Israle and has applied for charity registration in the UK. [1]

On its website it states that "when media bias occurs, our worldwide base of subscribers takes action by contacting news agencies, drawing issues of bias to their attention, and requesting changes." [2]

It is a very pro-Israel site and exist to expose "bias", against Israel.

The first link is far better imo.

munchester29

wes wrote: »

Any evidence of that in this case? No, there isn't.

In fact the story Israel is saying is that they didn't know they were journalist at all. You even say that in your own post. So how is that even relevant to this instance? So what your saying doesn't make much sense, when it pertains to this instance at all. Your own post invalidates the point your trying to make, as you say the they couldn't have possibly know they were media.

Never said there was evidence of that in this case. From the video it looks like the tank crew could not see the TV markings anyway, and that is what the Israelis claim also.
I just made a general comment not related specifically to this case that demonstrate another aspect of such incidents, to show that things might be a bit more complex than described.

wes wrote: »

Also, you refer to Palestinians as opposed to Islamic Jihad or militants. I think that is very telling, that you didn't refer to the group and just referred to them as Palestinians. Why didn't you mention the group who did that?

wes wrote: »

This isn't the first time the Israeli's have done this sort of thing. So, I personally don't think they deserver the benefit of the doubt.

As can be seen in your above quote, you don't really bother to refer to specific Israeli groups involved, such as specific units of the IDF, you refer to them mostly as Israelis. Why shouldn't I do the same with the Palestinian groups?

wes wrote: »

Also, is this a common tactic used by Islamic Jihad or Hamas? Is it just that one instance or are multiple instances?

Well, I think I know of just one other incident when they disguised themselves as reporters, but I think even once is enough for the Israelis to be careful in that regard.
Add to that the fact that diguises are used many times by Palestinian terrorists, and I think it will become obvious why the IDF can't really trust in what they see, but actually need to be suspicious of everyone.

I know you like links, so here are a few examples of terrorists desguising themselves as:
1. IDF soldiers (look for the names "Danielle Shefi", "Arik Becker", just to name a couple in the list of victims):
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/terror.victims/page8.html
2. A couple holding hands (look for the incident on 7 January 2008):
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/fd807e46661e3689852570d00069e918/9adb0259533c8752852573d800511d3b!OpenDocument
3. Orthodox Jews (llok for the incident on 9 October 1994):
http://www.mythbustingthemideast.com/americanvics.html

wes

munchester29 wrote: »

Never said there was evidence of that in this case. From the video it looks like the tank crew could not see the TV markings anyway, and that is what the Israelis claim also.
I just made a general comment not related specifically to this case that demonstrate another aspect of such incidents, to show that things might be a bit more complex than described.

So, its not relevant at all then.

munchester29 wrote: »

As can be seen in your above quote, you don't really bother to refer to specific Israeli groups involved, such as specific units of the IDF, you refer to them mostly as Israelis. Why shouldn't I do the same with the Palestinian groups?

You got me there. However, Israeli's can be Jewish, Bedouin's or Palestinian. I don't refer to an ethnic group, but rather a national one.

munchester29 wrote: »

Well, I think I know of just one other incident when they disguised themselves as reporters, but I think even once is enough for the Israelis to be careful in that regard.
Add to that the fact that diguises are used many times by Palestinian terrorists, and I think it will become obvious why the IDF can't really trust in what they see, but actually need to be suspicious of everyone.

I know you like links, so here are a few examples of terrorists desguising themselves as:
1. IDF soldiers (look for the names "Danielle Shefi", "Arik Becker", just to name a couple in the list of victims):
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2002/terror.victims/page8.html
2. A couple holding hands (look for the incident on 7 January 2008):
http://domino.un.org/unispal.nsf/fd807e46661e3689852570d00069e918/9adb0259533c8752852573d800511d3b!OpenDocument
3. Orthodox Jews (llok for the incident on 9 October 1994):
http://www.mythbustingthemideast.com/americanvics.html

Again hardly relevant to the current situation. Seeing as they couldn't see they were media (according to you).

humberklog

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Not really surprised. A criminal occupation committing criminal acts. You'd think the jews would stay well clear of that stuff after the treatment the germans gave them in the 30's and 40's.

Good grief. It's this type of comment that slips under the bar, with their snide ill informed broad brush stroke, that at just over 30words can distort well infomed arguement. As a jew and super-pro-israeli it's sickening when a well informed discussion such as this gets distorted with such snide ill-informed antisemiticism. Yeah kev 'the jews' shoulda learnt their lesson!? Nuts,pure 12y.o type nonsense and you're well outta your depth. Save it for your transitition year debating society where I'm sure such an irrelevant statement will blend in nicely with many of the other daft blind-ignorant pseudo left twatspeak. Read a book.
I have to say that MMs contribution on this thread has been 2nd to none, as have been many of the responses to it. I may not agree with the angle many(nearly all!) are coming from but that's how the wheel turns and i've enjoyed keeping up with the chatter.
It's a shock that's felt world wide when jounalists are killed. Indeed some IDF members don't always act in the most professional nor humane way. It's a large machanism (I am also ex-IDF)with many objectives,many enemies,many ideals. When anything of such complexity is,as must be,handled by individuals on a day to day basis it's human nature acting out of synch that can disappoint people acting on a larger scale. Humans are flawed.
This goes for Kev and it also goes for IDF members that betray the general moral good.

turgon

Okay about the reuters video. Right, the Israelis were in a tank. Now im no army general but as far as a I know tanks are well protected against missile launchers etc. So even if the IDF thought it was a missile launcher, they cant have been in a huge amount of danger. But in fairness how can they have been 100% sure given the distance?

People have used the distance between camera and tank as an excuse but I say its another reason why this is wrong. The IDF thought he had a launcher. And they dealt the death penalty. No two ways about it.

I dont think anyone can justify Israels actions. In principle I would agree with a jewish home in palistine. But are they getting greedy or what going on? this huge "protecting wall" they have built, sometimes miles outside their territory is wrong. The way they deal with Palestinians is wrong.

They claim to be religious. Does their God agree with them killing Palestinians?

humberklog

turgon wrote: »

They claim to be religious. Does their God agree with them killing Palestinians?

Do they? What GOD have you heard them(by 'they' i presume you mean Israelis)proclaim there faith to? I haven't yet heard the israelis name that luanched the rocket so couldn't be sure about his religious beliefs. If he has any at all. The last british cameraman to be killed was by a christian(by birth,unsure of his devotion) israeli soldier.
An interesting question posed at the end..."does their god agree.....?" Is that a real question? Is there someone out there on boards with the ear of a God? What God? Who is this God you talk of? Gerry Adam's god? Bush's God? Jim Jones' God? Woody Allen's God? Your God?
So do they?
Whose God?
What god is talking to people? And do you believe a God directly talks to people?
A bit off topic I know,as is your post considering the ot was posted befor the tank assault. And you really should read MMs post regarding enemy clarity and identification.

turgon

humberklog wrote: »

Whose God?
What god is talking to people? And do you believe a God directly talks to people?

Hmmm let me guess who are the majority population in Israel? WHO ARE THE PEOPLE ORDERING THE TROOPS?????????????????????????
Well you seem to be acting ignorant so ill tell you - JEWS.
Because (and i thought you would realize this) - Israel is a JEWISH COUNTRY.

So when I say their God I obviously mean the JEWS' God. Use your common sense,humberklog.

And about Gods directly talking to people. Well most people believe in the bible or the koran or another religous text. And most of these religous texts say love you neighbour etc etc. So what Im saying is that this campaign is totally against the wish of any supposed God anyone has. nd against the principle of religous people like Jews.

humberklog

Jews in Isael would have a hgher secular proportion than in christian countries. Far higher. Most of my friends in Ireland would be christian(catholic)and I've yet to hear of one 'talking' to god let alone hearing from him. And yet this is a country with a lot of catholics with an interventionist god.
If you've a vision of a majority of jews heading to syn. and recieving religious direction on a sarutrday you've been misguided.

eoin5

humberklog wrote: »

As a jew and super-pro-israeli it's sickening when a well informed discussion such as this gets distorted with such snide ill-informed antisemiticism.

"A criminal occupation committing criminal acts" I'd go along with. Criminal might be the wrong word but illegal and immoral certainly. I've read a fair share on the subject and I agree that the palestinians are not innocent in the whole ordeal (and neither are the British or the UN, Egypt, Syria or Jordan). Israel should have had a happy, peaceful beginning but everyone except the Jewish community feicked up at the time of the breakup of the British mandate. What happened in the wars in 1967 and 1973 was an extension of that to a certain extent. Now its a totally different story with respect to Palestine. Its a tight horrible situation whereby a kid throwing a stone could get him shot. How can life foster in a place where settlements eat up their remaining land and the encroachers act on any excuse to go and grab more. Israel are slowly forging a country full of kids ready to murder them.

humberklog

eoin5 wrote: »

" Israel are slowly forging a country full of kids ready to murder them.

Slowly doing it for years. The pain on both sides is being reaped now and for the last 35years. I'm no apologist for this administration(or last 12years). My point was that this is a good thread and it's the type of posts Kev slips in that go unnoticed by most and is yet way off topic. As like most discussions on Israel what start as balanced,intense discussion eventually turns over a nastier underbelly.

eoin5

humberklog wrote: »

Slowly doing it for years. The pain on both sides is being reaped now and for the last 35years. I'm no apologist for this administration(or last 12years). My point was that this is a good thread and it's the type of posts Kev slips in that go unnoticed by most and is yet way off topic. As like most discussions on Israel what start as balanced,intense discussion eventually turns over a nastier underbelly.

That kind of post is often recognised as a troll so I guess thats why it seemed unnoticed but I thought he had a good point with the "A criminal occupation committing criminal acts" part.

Anyway back on topic I think the immunity from the UN is partly to blame for the problems of discipline within the IDF. If Israel had to worry about real sanctions I think the commanders would have a tighter leash.

Manic Moran

turgon wrote: »

Okay about the reuters video. Right, the Israelis were in a tank. Now im no army general but as far as a I know tanks are well protected against missile launchers etc. So even if the IDF thought it was a missile launcher, they cant have been in a huge amount of danger. But in fairness how can they have been 100% sure given the distance?

Allow me to give you a clue. ATGM = "Anti-Tank Guided Missile"
The answer is in the title. Yes, tanks are armoured. But there are weapon systems out there specifically designed to deal with tanks and penetrate their armour, and ATGMs are perfect for the job for groups currently facing Israel, as they're man-portable, long-ranged, and effective.

I doubt they thought they were 100% sure. You take the 90% solution, as you can never be 100% sure, until after they shoot at you. In which case, you might be dead, which doesn't do you much good.

NTM

humberklog

Command is usually very tight and consienscious. That may be hard to swallow but it's a fact. For the ammount of manouvres,personell and interaction and taking the level of animosity between both(if it can be reduced to two)sides there has to be a level of unlawful intimidation. They are (both) aggrieved sides of humans with guns and ammo.
An important point that has been overlooked is thaat in this particular case the whistle has been blown by Israelis. This level of consciencessnous(nice spelling) is in no way uncommon within the IDF. Israelis can disagree, publicise themselves and vote in open democratic elections. It is not a theocracy with some sort of spooky God talking to securicrats within the state as some very misguided people seem to think.

sovtek

Manic Moran wrote: »

Bullcrap. It's easy to tell the difference 100 yards away in a parking lot or in still photographs of "This is a camera. This is an ATGM."
From a mile, in concealing terrain and through a tank sight, it gets a whole hell of a lot more difficult. Trust me, I know these things.

and if there is any doubt...from a mile away...then they should not be shooting anything.
Also it comes into the situation what the military is doing there...enforcing occupation and expansion...that can't be ignored "in a first world military" and therefore can't be given the benefit of the doubt.

Kev_ps3

humberklog wrote: »

Slowly doing it for years. The pain on both sides is being reaped now and for the last 35years. I'm no apologist for this administration(or last 12years). My point was that this is a good thread and it's the type of posts Kev slips in that go unnoticed by most and is yet way off topic. As like most discussions on Israel what start as balanced,intense discussion eventually turns over a nastier underbelly.

What are you rambling about? What posts do I slip in that go unnoticed?!

Manic Moran

sovtek wrote: »

and if there is any doubt...from a mile away...then they should not be shooting anything.

Distance has nothing to do with it. The dividing line is if you honestly believe, given the entireity of the circumstances, that you are under threat. Perfect information is never available, it is unrealistic and unreasonable to expect people to act as if it is.

NTM

humberklog

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

You'd think the jews would stay well clear of that stuff after the treatment the germans gave them in the 30's and 40's.

This one. This child's weird little warble. A sentence so completely off OT. Standard rightwing guff turning the table of contrition on history. If you disagree then you're not able to read your own writing. If you still can't figure out how retarded that sentence sits in context to this thread then i recommend that you start a thread that suits what you want to say. Now let us leave this interesting thread to get back on topic.

turgon

humberklog wrote: »

Jews in Isael would have a hgher secular proportion than in christian countries. Far higher. Most of my friends in Ireland would be christian(catholic)and I've yet to hear of one 'talking' to god let alone hearing from him. And yet this is a country with a lot of catholics with an interventionist god.
If you've a vision of a majority of jews heading to syn. and recieving religious direction on a sarutrday you've been misguided.

Ok humberklog, listen carefully because your understanding of other human beings appears to be a little dodgy from your previous posts. When I say about what they're god thinks, im talking about the views that are put forward in their holy books. For example Catholics would "love their neighbour" on the basis that that is gods wish ie the Bible Wish. Now as far as I know Jews consider the Old Testament a holy book with messages from God etc etc. Does the Old Testament say "kill they neighbour for thine own territorial good"?

I think not. The old testament preaches love etc. Think about Moses and the slaves in Egypt. How is the current Israeli state any different from the Eygption slaveholders that tortured their slaves? I just think that these Jews arent being true to their faith.

Now if your going to reply dont pretend you dont understand my posts. You know very well what I have been saying but you are trying to act stupid with a view to promoting your side of the debate. That is called biased.

eoin5

turgon wrote: »

Now as far as I know Jews consider the Old Testament a holy book with messages from God etc etc. Does the Old Testament say "kill they neighbour for thine own territorial good"?

I think not. The old testament preaches love etc. Think about Moses and the slaves in Egypt. How is the current Israeli state any different from the Eygption slaveholders that tortured their slaves? I just think that these Jews arent being true to their faith.

Have you read much of the old testament? I think youve got the wrong idea:

"Numbers wrote:

And the LORD spake unto Moses in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye are passed over Jordan into the land of Canaan; Then ye shall drive out all the inhabitants of the land from before you, and destroy all their pictures, and destroy all their molten images, and quite pluck down all their high places: And ye shall dispossess the inhabitants of the land, and dwell therein: for I have given you the land to possess it. And ye shall divide the land by lot for an inheritance among your families: and to the more ye shall give the more inheritance, and to the fewer ye shall give the less inheritance: every man's inheritance shall be in the place where his lot falleth; according to the tribes of your fathers ye shall inherit. But if ye will not drive out the inhabitants of the land from before you; then it shall come to pass, that those which ye let remain of them shall be pricks in your eyes, and thorns in your sides, and shall vex you in the land wherein ye dwell.

oscarBravo

Before anyone else posts on this thread, everyone concerned go take a little walk and do some deep breathing.

If the trend towards getting personal continues, there will be consequences.

turgon

I stand corrected.

Religion can be so evil. Even in the most subtle of ways - just think about the way theres this whole taboo in this country about protestants. Why cant people, including the Israelis and the Arabs see each other as equals.

Pardon me too if I got too personal earlier.

Suff

eoin5 wrote: »

Israel should have had a happy, peaceful beginning but everyone except the Jewish community feicked up at the time of the breakup of the British mandate.

I would like to know exactly your presumption of a "peacfule beginning" ?

Sending hundreds of thousands of Palastinans into exile, demolition of homes, occupation of lands (Syria's golan heights and lebanon's shebaa farms) and the abuse of religion (judaism) for political agenda (zionism)!

before anyone start the old cliche that the Jews are the rightful owners of the land, Please read the history of the Palestinian people.

Think of it this way, Israel had the backing of major powers in the world at the time of it's birth and to this day, with all this backing they weren't able to achieve security for over 50 years, and they won't...what was taken illegally and by FORCE will never produce peace.

eoin5

Suff wrote: »

I would like to know exactly your presumption of a "peacfule beginning" ?

Sending hundreds of thousands of Palastinans into exile, demolition of homes, occupation of lands (Syria's golan heights and lebanon's shebaa farms) and the abuse of religion (judaism) for political agenda (zionism)!

before anyone start the old cliche that the Jews are the rightful owners of the land, Please read the history of the Palestinian people.

Think of it this way, Israel had the backing of major powers in the world at the time of it's birth and to this day, with all this backing they weren't able to achieve security for over 50 years, and they won't...what was taken illegally and by FORCE will never produce peace.

My take on it is that the Israelis did nothing wrong by going there at the time and the onus was on the British to ensure that everything happened properly:

Balfour Declaration: "Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers,in favor of the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country"

The only way that could have worked is if this national home for the Jewish people would also be for the Palestinians too. The immigration quotas should have been much smaller and the whole thing happened without any real plan. When troubles flared up in the mid 30s the British did something they really shouldnt have, they picked a side, although arguably they had picked it well beforehand when they went back on agreements they had made with the Arabs before the beginning of the mandate. After that you can say the Israelis lost their innosence as they went on to murder and displace a horrible amount of innocent people. The violent beginnings of Israel could have been avoided if the mandate powers had done a more sensible and fair job and in my opinion the Arabs didnt play their cards very well at the time either.

Tea drinker

Playboy wrote: »

Nobody that matters cares unfortunately and I dont think that attitude is going to change soon.

Exactly.

Also, the attrocities happen to "bad people" or "people who have it coming" and what's more "they deserve it"

Israel is keeping those conflicts going out there because it suits them.
Same as U.S. foreign policy.

Gu3rr1lla

This is frightening! I'm no anti Semite or conspiracy wacko but check out this

Report: Netanyahu says 9/11 terror attacks good for Israel
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/975574.html

and this

Report from Fox News - 60 Israeli spies, with explosives training, were arrested in connection with the 9/11 attack on September 11th.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JWpWc_suPWo

"evidence linking the Israeli's to 9/11 is classified. I cannot tell you about the evidence that has been gathered. It is classified information."

Manic Moran

You might want to actually listen to the report, instead of just reading the "highlights."

It's common knowledge that the Israelis spy on everyone, and also in other people's countries on people who aren't of that country (e.g. Arabs in the US). They don't like to be dependant on others. All the guy quoted is saying is that if the Israelis did have any advance intel about 9/11, he's not at liberty to disclose what or how. This is normal, people rarely give information from HumInt sources publicly, it's too risky for the source. This may also be why, if the Israelis did have a bit of intel in advance (And I seem to recall reading that they did have inklings), they did not want to share the information with the US.

The '60 Israeli Spies' were just 60 of the many people (The US detains thousands each year) arrested for immigration or security violations. And of course they have military training: Everyone, male and female, serves in the military.

NTM

Suff

Today. Seven Palestinians have been killed during a raid by the Israeli army in the northern Gaza Strip, six of them by a shell which hit a family home.

Four children and an elderly man were among the dead. The children's mother was taken to hospital but died later as doctors struggled to save her life.

AlJazeera

jank

And of course they have military training: Everyone, male and female, serves in the military.

WRONG! If you are in a religious school doing some rabi like training you are not obliged to serve in the army.

Manic Moran

Fair enough.

I'm sure they have some Conscientious Objector status too.

NTM

humberklog

They do. It isn't pleasant and is generally followed by a lifetime on the scratch as no company would take you on. This also goes for those that can't do service through physical and mental disability.

An interesting point brought up here though is the religious abstentia from service. One of the best fun and most physical put downs i've personally been involved in was back in 1991 when a toll road was peremitted to open and operate on a saturday outside tel aviv. The woolybrimmed hat brigade started a violent protest that was more than happily and violently brought to an end by the IDF and a strenghtened police forces. It was considered a big payback afternoon. There was no love lost and a big,big weekend of shared photos and beers followed.