Religion is 'the new social evil'

pH

A CHARITY set up by an ardent Christian to fight slavery and the opium trade has identified a new social evil of the 21st century - religion.

A poll by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation uncovered a widespread belief that faith - not just in its extreme form - was intolerant, irrational and used to justify persecution.

Pollsters asked 3,500 people what they considered to be the worst blights on modern society, updating a list drawn up by Rowntree, a Quaker, 104 years ago.

The responses may well have dismayed him. The researchers found that the “dominant opinion” was that religion was a “social evil”.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/tls_selections/religion/article3779988.ece

However, Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society, said he was “extremely pleased”.

“Britain has had it with religion,” he said.

robindch

pH wrote: »

A poll by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation uncovered a widespread belief that faith - not just in its extreme form - was intolerant, irrational and used to justify persecution.

hmm... pope is catholic, methinks.

The actual reports are here and they're rather more equivocal about religion than the Times is making out. And it wasn't a push-poll either, but a opt-in web poll that 3,500 or so people happened to complete. Still and all, it's good to see some measurable portion of the population walking around with their eyes open.

It's interesting to see that many of the threats that Rowntree was concerned about, have effectively disappeared from western societies -- war, salvery, opium trade (and impurity?). And the identified threats which have replaced them are arguably rather less life threatening. Is this social progress?

PDN

Interesting response from Libby Purves. Is faith a worse social evil than creepy media reporting? http://timesonline.typepad.com/faith/2008/04/rowntree-and-re.html

Also, I doubt very much if Rowntree himself would be dismayed by such findings. He was a determined critic of the religious and political establishments of his day. The Joseph Rowntree Trust was partly set up to support liberal newspapers because he was so disgusted at the popular press and it's jingoistic support of the Boer War (Rowntree was a pacifist). Like many of the Quakers who gave us our best chocolate (the Cadburys, Terrys and Frys immediately spring to mind) Rowntree was considered a dangerous radical by many and was regularly blasted from many a pulpit.

On a personal, and totally irrelevant, note, I have good reason to be grateful to the Joseph Rowntree Foundation. Many years ago they provided a grant for myself and my wife to take our disabled daughter on a holiday, something that was totally beyond our means at the time. It enabled her to enjoy the one proper holiday of her short life.

JimiTime

'She is falling, she is falling'. Let those who have eyes see, and ears hear;)

CerebralCortex

JimiTime wrote: »

'She is falling, she is falling'. Let those who have eyes see, and ears hear;)

Wha?

Fenian Ram

CerebralCortex wrote: »

You could be right but I personally live for the day when the world is governed by secular humanists. Long live the day when I can turn on rte radio at 6 o'clock and there are no f**kin bells.

Who are these people? Can you name any of them? And anyway, I didn't know that there was a world government.

,8,1

Who are these people? Can you name any of them? And anyway, I didn't know that there was a world government.

De facto World Government through the United Nations, North American Union and European Union.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

You could be right but I personally live for the day when the world is governed by secular humanists. Long live the day when I can turn on rte radio at 6 o'clock and there are no f**kin bells.

It's worth remembering that Jesus predicted widespread loss of faith when He comes back to earth in glory. Things are certainly heading in that direction.

Luke 18:8 ..... But yet the Son of man, when he cometh, shall he find, think you, faith on earth?

Fenian Ram

,8,1 wrote: »

De facto World Government through the United Nations, North American Union and European Union.

It's a good job then that all those 'secular humanists' have been listening to the pope.

Sangre

its a social evil in the sense that it can be used as a tool (far too easily) by evil people to further their own interests.

kelly1

Sangre wrote: »

its a social evil in the sense that it can be used as a tool (far too easily) by evil people to further their own interests.

With you 100% there. On the other hand think of all the Christian charities and the great work they've done to help the poorest of the poor. Mother Teresa being a good example. Think of all the great art, literature, architecture and even science that arose from Christianity.

European civilization has its root in Christianity. Where would we be today without it?

Asiaprod

kelly1 wrote: »

European civilization has its root in Christianity. Where would we be today without it?

Now that's an interesting question:)

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

With you 100% there. On the other hand think of all the Christian charities and the great work they've done to help the poorest of the poor. Mother Teresa being a good example. Think of all the great art, literature, architecture and even science that arose from Christianity.

European civilization has its root in Christianity. Where would we be today without it?

Neol we can't know that. But we do know where it got with it: WW1, WW2, crusades(one of which I think was against jews in europe), northern ireland, magdelene sisters, clerical sexual abuse, indoctrination of the weak, imperialism the list is endless and my fingers are getting tired.

Fenian Ram

CerebralCortex wrote: »

Neol we can't know that. But we do know where it got with it: WW1, WW2, crusades(one of which I think was against jews in europe), northern ireland, magdelene sisters, clerical sexual abuse, indoctrination of the weak, imperialism the list is endless and my fingers are getting tired.

Try googling 'WWI/WWII causes', you might learn something.

CerebralCortex

Fenian Ram wrote: »

Try googling 'WWI/WWII causes', you might learn something.

What are you implying? By the way attack the poster not the post, you know nothing of my knowledge on WW1/WW2 causes.

PDN

kelly1 wrote: »

With you 100% there. On the other hand think of all the Christian charities and the great work they've done to help the poorest of the poor. Mother Teresa being a good example. Think of all the great art, literature, architecture and even science that arose from Christianity.

European civilization has its root in Christianity. Where would we be today without it?

Come on Noel, you know better than that. The answers you will receive here will broadly be as follows:
"All the great things that arose from Christianity would have occurred earlier in history without the hindering influence of the Church. However, everything bad that has happened in history is the fault of religion and otherwise would not have occurred."

Bear in mind that those who hold to this view affirm that they reach their conclusions solely through the rational assessing of evidence and not through faith or wishful thinking.

Dades

PDN wrote: »

"All the great things that arose from Christianity would have occurred earlier in history without the hindering influence of the Church."

Not entirely true. Without Christianity, I'd never have got my Holy Communion trip to Dublin Zoo, and dinner in Blakes afterwards.

robindch

PDN wrote: »

"All the great things that arose from Christianity would have occurred earlier in history without the hindering influence of the Church."

In this strange parallel universe of your imagination, I wonder how the magnificent cathedrals of northern France, and the deep and rich tradition of music they produced, would have been arisen without the "hindering influence of the Church".

Wishful thinking indeed!

seamus

What I've been finding recently is that so many people (usually older religious people) have been wailing about how we're becoming a much more immoral society and how the world is destined to become a cesspool of debauchery.

However, when you examine western moral values over the last 50 years, there has been overall a shift towards being more moral and tolerant than ever before. Fine, on some items such as liberation of homosexuality and sale of contraception, there'll be disagreements. But on other issues, we have moved into a much more moral position, often in spite of the religious views - gender equality, human rights, employment rights, social policy, education, racial equality, religious equality, justice.

The very fact that everyone now has to examine whether or not something is "PC" before uttering it, shows how much more moral and humane we've become as a society. Religions have tended to not side with humanity all that much. For the last few hundred years, they've followed social morality trends rather than set them.

So I can see how people feel that religion is a "social evil". It's the last bastion of intolerance; The last large institution which feels that it's OK to discriminate based on age, gender, race or religion, and one of the last institutions which preaches in moral absolutes rather than in reasonable guidelines.

pH

seamus wrote: »

So I can see how people feel that religion is a "social evil". It's the last bastion of intolerance; The last large institution which feels that it's OK to discriminate based on age, gender, race or religion, and one of the last institutions which preaches in moral absolutes rather than in reasonable guidelines.

And still getting away with it (today) :

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/churchrun-schools-can-keep-atheists-off-their-staff-1353365.html

Anyone know if the new non-denominational schools are allowed keep Christians off their staff?

robindch

pH wrote: »

Anyone know if the new non-denominational schools are allowed keep Christians off their staff?

I should jolly well hope not!

Ekancone

robindch wrote: »

It's interesting to see that many of the threats that Rowntree was concerned about, have effectively disappeared from western societies -- war, slavery, opium trade (and impurity?). And the identified threats which have replaced them are arguably rather less life threatening. Is this social progress?

I disagree with that bit. Slavery isn't all about cotton-pickin' Africans, you know. How about sex slaves from Eastern Europe who are held in brothels within Western societies?

Ekancone

kelly1 wrote: »

European civilization has its root in Christianity. Where would we be today without it?

I think you will find that modern European civilisation is founded on the rejection of many Christian values via The Enlightenment.

Pompey Magnus

kelly1 wrote: »

It's worth remembering that Jesus predicted widespread loss of faith when He comes back to earth in glory. Things are certainly heading in that direction.

Well I don't put much faith in Jesus's predictive powers. After all he also predicted that the end of the world would occur prior to the end of the first century and perhaps prior to 70 AD and the fact that we are discussing this almost 2,000 years after his deadline is a pretty good sign that his predictions were not always spot on:

"This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished" (Mark 9:1)

"....This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished (Mark 13:30)

"...there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

"But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:27)

robindch

daithifleming wrote: »

I disagree with that bit. Slavery isn't all about cotton-pickin' Africans, you know. How about sex slaves from Eastern Europe who are held in brothels within Western societies?

Should have been more specific -- I had in mind the kind of slavery as a widespread phenomenon which was tolerated if not actively encouraged by nation states. For example, the kind of country-rape that Belgium carried out in the 19th century in Congo at the behest of the evangelizing christian King Leopold II.

pH

PDN wrote: »

Come on Noel, you know better than that. The answers you will receive here will broadly be as follows:
"All the great things that arose from Christianity would have occurred earlier in history without the hindering influence of the Church. However, everything bad that has happened in history is the fault of religion and otherwise would not have occurred."

That's a little simplistic, but it does seem to be that genuine social progress is strongly correlated with the decline of religious *power* in society. Be it Catholic Ireland, Buddhist Tibet or Islamic Saudi, societies both present and historical where religion has genuine power have done very little in terms of social equality.

Now undeniably some religious people have been involved in social change, and you could argue that they were religiously motivated, but in all cases they have been in a secular democracy and it would be very hard to argue that the religion itself was a driving force for the change.

As for the "Oh Europe is fundamentally Christian" view, fine, Christianity had over 1,000 years in the ascendancy in Europe, much of it now referred to as "The Dark Ages". Characterised primarily by an extremely unjust society with the very poor being exploited by the rich and powerful, with the Christian churches far more concerned about their power and wealth than with their supposed 'Christian' message.

Even today PDN we have newly formed churches far more concerned with growing a power base and spreading their influence and accumulating wealth and property than working for social justice and change. Why? as usual power and vanity of the leaders of those churches.