Why do non-believers concern themselves with religion?

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Wishful thinking. Are you prepared to take the risk that you could be wrong (Pascal's wager)? Can you say with any certainty that when you die, it's all over? How sure are you that you won't have to make account of your life with your Maker?

I feel kind of let down and disappointed that you would suggest such a thing Noel. To be honest it reveals a lot about the zealous nature in which you blindly believe what you believe. It screams with fear and is very discrediting to your argument of why we should believe.

kelly1

Galvasean wrote: »

I have two retorts:

1) If God is as omniscient as they say he is, he will know I'm only believing him to avoid the Inferno, rather than because of genuine love for him. Seeing through this deception he may only get madder and create an even worse afterlife scenario for me.

Very true.

Galvasean wrote: »

2) What if I chose the wrong God/religion? There are literally thousands of choices, each with their own unique strong/weak points. The first Commandment said you shouldn't have false Gods before the real one. Ergo, believing in a fake God will anger the real God more so than not believing in him at all.

Good question. I think this basically has its root in man doing his own thing and turning his back on the God of revelation.

Also I think a certain amount of elimination can be applied. e.g any religion that teaches that time is eternal can be ruled out because science has proved that the time had a beginning. This would rule out Hinduism for instance.

It's obvious that all religion can't be true because of contradictory teachings. I think Christianity has the strongest arguments in its favour.

Galvasean wrote: »

If I do meet my creator some day (Dad?) I'll ask him why he tricked me into thinking he didn't exist.

I can certianly see your difficulty but I don't think God is as hidden as atheists claim.

kelly1

CerebralCortex wrote: »

I feel kind of let down and disappointed that you would suggest such a thing Noel. To be honest it reveals a lot about the zealous nature in which you blindly believe what you believe. It screams with fear and is very discrediting to your argument of why we should believe.

Let down and disappointed?? To dare suggest that atheists could be wrong about judgment after death?

Galvasean

kelly1 wrote: »

I can certianly see your difficulty but I don't think God is as hidden as atheists claim.

If we taught he was there, we wouldn't be atheists anymore.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

Let down and disappointed?? To dare suggest that atheists could be wrong about judgment after death?

No read posts more carefully! Disappointed that I've waisted so much time arguing with you when you suggest that it may be safer to believe in god just in case like so many on this island.

CerebralCortex

kelly1 wrote: »

....I think Christianity has the strongest arguments in its favour....

Of course you do!! Are sure your name is not Bill O'Reilly???

tbh

kelly1 wrote: »

Let down and disappointed?? To dare suggest that atheists could be wrong about judgment after death?

I believe strongly in Karma. I believe strongly that if everybody truly treated everybody else the way they themselves wished to be treated, we would be in heaven. I honestly and sincerely try to live my life according to this code, I try not to deliberately hurt anyone, and if I do, I apologise, seek forgiveness and try and learn a lesson. I try and help people where-ever I can, and I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, even tho I've been stung by that more than once, I'll carry on doing it. I'll work on myself and I'll hope that everyone else does the same. Now, if God judges me, and finds me wanting due to laziness, or pride or arrogance or whatever, then fair enough. But according to yourself, he could condemn me simply because I didn't follow the rules of the Catholic church, or the Jewish religion, or Hindus or whatever, and that just seems laughable to me.

A lot of people have made the point that it's better to do the right thing because you want to, than because you feel you have to. Are you saying that God would punish that? To be honest, it looks like you fear God more that you love God, and I would say that that's punishment enough.

edit, if I might make one point, if you explain to me why you believe something, I respect that. If you explain to me why I should believe something, I don't like it. It implies superiority of belief.

planetX

Interesting question - Why do non-believers concern themselves with religion?
which you have posted on the Atheists board! See any hypocrisy here? You brought the religion here to this place of the damned.
Ever had a knock on your door from some atheists trying to get you to read a book, and make a little donation? I would be quite happy to never discuss religion again - if the state was secular, and religion was never able to impinge on my life. Luckily I don't live under a religion which would have me stoned to death, and this country has certainly improved since I was at school having Catholic guilt shoved down my throat. But I still hugely resent having to witness the attempted brainwash of my child at school, and the access that the local priest has to the kids there, the bishop who is on the board of trustees - the incessant intrusion of other peoples beliefs into my life. Keep it inside your church and you won't find atheists discussing religion anymore.

eoin5

kelly1 wrote: »

Wishful thinking. Are you prepared to take the risk that you could be wrong (Pascal's wager)? Can you say with any certainty that when you die, it's all over? How sure are you that you won't have to make account of your life with your Maker?

Yes I'm willing, its about the same chance that all of religion is a trap set up by god and everyone else who doesnt believe gets into heaven. Heres a nice witty one on pascals wager: http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=X94YffpUryo

adamd164

Pascal's wager makes the mistake of assuming there's any sort of realistic chance that a god exists: it sort of takes it for granted that the likelihood is not dissimilar to that of said god's non-existence. Further, even in the unlikely scenario that there existed a god, the countless numbers of supreme beings ever postulated renders the odds of your having chosen the correct one bewilderingly low.

In short, it's a mindless non-argument spun by zealots and propagandists.

Tim_Murphy

It never ceases to amaze me when Pascal’s Wager a convincing argument.

It's obvious that all religion can't be true because of contradictory teachings. I think Christianity has the strongest arguments in its favour.

As a person brought up Christian, I’ve never been convinced of this. I’ve never come across anybody who has said like ‘I’m not sure about any of these religions but Christianity seems the most likely. Of course Christians say they find the arguments in favour of Christianity the most convincing, but they would.

I can certianly see your difficulty but I don't think God is as hidden as atheists claim

Atheists don’t tend to think that God is hidden.

Left to our own devices we would become savages just like the children in the Lord of the Flies

That’s a very sad view to have of humanity. Thankfully the evidence doesn’t really suggest that it is true in the whole.

CerebralCortex

planetX wrote: »

Interesting question - Why do non-believers concern themselves with religion?
which you have posted on the Atheists board! See any hypocrisy here? You brought the religion here to this place of the damned.
Ever had a knock on your door from some atheists trying to get you to read a book, and make a little donation? I would be quite happy to never discuss religion again - if the state was secular, and religion was never able to impinge on my life. Luckily I don't live under a religion which would have me stoned to death, and this country has certainly improved since I was at school having Catholic guilt shoved down my throat. But I still hugely resent having to witness the attempted brainwash of my child at school, and the access that the local priest has to the kids there, the bishop who is on the board of trustees - the incessant intrusion of other peoples beliefs into my life. Keep it inside your church and you won't find atheists discussing religion anymore.

That is a wonderfull post!

Overheal

Kelly1 wrote:

Why do non-believers concern themselves with religion?

Why do believers concern themselves with me at my front door and ask me to take Jesus into my heart?

Can't remember the last time an Atheist came knocking asking me "Dont do it!"

edit - just read the OP but it appears I've been sniped on several occassions. whoops

edit: seriously though why is every second thread in this forum another religious whackjob zealot bent on attacking Atheism/Agnosticism? I don't go into the religion forums and ask them why they dont just abandon their beliefs and come join in my Godlessness.

ffs.

stereoroid

kelly1 wrote: »

I can certianly see your difficulty but I don't think God is as hidden as atheists claim.

Oh, wait, let me guess: "seek and ye shall find"? Weren't you just lecturing us about human nature?

If so, it's odd to see such ignorance of human nature. We have the ability to trick ourselves into seeing anything that we want to see. Where you see God, some see UFOs, and others see Government conspiracies. We feel limbs we no longer have, and hear the voices of the long-departed. Kids hear monsters under the bed, and talk to their toys, and we call it cute.

(OK, it's cute!)

Overheal

bonus points for posting Calvin and Hobbes

Left to our own devices we would become savages just like the children in the Lord of the Flies

and have we tested this little theory in the real world? no.

kelly1

planetX wrote: »

Interesting question - Why do non-believers concern themselves with religion?
which you have posted on the Atheists board! See any hypocrisy here? You brought the religion here to this place of the damned.
Ever had a knock on your door from some atheists trying to get you to read a book, and make a little donation? I would be quite happy to never discuss religion again - if the state was secular, and religion was never able to impinge on my life. Luckily I don't live under a religion which would have me stoned to death, and this country has certainly improved since I was at school having Catholic guilt shoved down my throat. But I still hugely resent having to witness the attempted brainwash of my child at school, and the access that the local priest has to the kids there, the bishop who is on the board of trustees - the incessant intrusion of other peoples beliefs into my life. Keep it inside your church and you won't find atheists discussing religion anymore.

It seems to have escaped your attention that I didn't start this thread!

Dades

Overheal wrote: »

seriously though why is every second thread in this forum another religious whackjob zealot bent on attacking Atheism/Agnosticism? I don't go into the religion forums and ask them why they dont just abandon their beliefs and come join in my Godlessness.

You may not - but many here do! I think both forums benefit from alternative POVs. Keeps things 'lively'.

kelly1 wrote: »

It seems to have escaped your attention that I didn't start this thread!

I was at pains to point this out. Though it is your post from the other thread at the heart of this.

Galvasean

Dades wrote: »

I was at pains to point this out. Though it is your post from the other thread at the heart of this.

The other thread which was started by...

Actually looking at page 1, about half the threads (this one doesnt count) are started by religious folk.

Tigger

Dades wrote: »

You may not - but many here do! I think both forums benefit from alternative POVs. Keeps things 'lively'.

other wise it'd be a boring forum here with

op; i dont believe in god

tigger; me neither wanna go for a pint

op; i don't believe in drinking before lunch time

tigger; but look at all the evidence of drinking before lunchtime how can you dispute it.

op; i'm off to talk to the godbotherers

adamd164

kelly1 wrote: »

It seems to have escaped your attention that I didn't start this thread!

No, you just dragged another one so far off topic that the forum mod had to split them up. Big difference there.

Fanny Cradock

adamd164 wrote: »

you should ask yourself why you are obsessed with atheism.

I do find it quite ironic that you accuse Kelly of being obsessed with atheism and then go on to put 3 career atheists in your top 5 intellectuals. I dare say that if Harris and Grayling had been in the list you would have made it a clean sweep of it.

adamd164

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I do find it quite ironic that you accuse Kelly of being obsessed with atheism and then go on to put 3 career atheists in your top 5 intellectuals. I dare say that if Harris and Grayling had been in the list you would have made it a clean sweep of it.

I'm an ardent antitheist: the people on my list reflect my views and opinions on important matters, and I respect them intellectually. If Sam Harris had been on the list, he would definitely have been included. E.O. Wilson would have remained over Grayling (you'll find that Wilson is an atheist also, just not as outspoken).

What's your point? Of course I care about religion; in fact, it's one of the primary issues to me. Obsessed? I'd like to think not, but many would say so, yes. And so I come to this forum to converse with like-minded others about various topics which are of concern to me, not to have morons attempt to twist my arm or convert me to their archaic, idiocy-riddled, deaf, dumb and blind religious faith. I don't go preaching on the Christianity forum, as I'm well aware that anyone going to the trouble of posting there has heard it all before, and my presence will be little more than an irritation.

Fanny Cradock

adamd164 wrote: »

I'm an ardent antitheist: the people on my list reflect my views and opinions on important matters, and I respect them intellectually. If Sam Harris had been on the list, he would definitely have been included. E.O. Wilson would have remained over Grayling (you'll find that Wilson is an atheist also, just not as outspoken).

What's your point? Of course I care about religion; in fact, it's one of the primary issues to me. Obsessed? I'd like to think not, but many would say so, yes. And so I come to this forum to converse with like-minded others about various topics which are of concern to me, not to have morons attempt to twist my arm or convert me to their archaic, idiocy-riddled, deaf, dumb and blind religious faith. I don't go preaching on the Christianity forum, as I'm well aware that anyone going to the trouble of posting there has heard it all before, and my presence will be little more than an irritation.

I see...

You are an angry chap, aren't you?

Zombrex

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

I see...

You are an angry chap, aren't you?

Isn't he right to be angry? Wouldn't you be angry?

Red Hand

Wicknight wrote: »

Isn't he right to be angry? Wouldn't you be angry?

Why would anybody want to be angry about it, though?

It's just stuff.

Zombrex

Jeremiah 16:1 wrote: »

Why would anybody want to be angry about it, though?

It's just stuff.

Well I don't think anyone ever wants to be angry, do they?

LaVidaLoca

Like, um dude, its only like the single most important thing you can ever talk about, but it's just, like, um, stuff. So did you see 'Lost' last night?

adamd164

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

Like, um dude, its only like the single most important thing you can ever talk about, but it's just, like, um, stuff. So did you see 'Lost' last night?

I'm watching it now.:pac:

Dades

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

Like, um dude, its only like the single most important thing you can ever talk about...

Certainly not the most important thing in my life.

Red Hand

Wicknight wrote: »

Well I don't think anyone ever wants to be angry, do they?

Mmmmm-hmmmmmm. But you can choose not to let such topics give you a stomach ulcer as well.

LaVidaLoca wrote: »

Like, um dude, its only like the single most important thing you can ever talk about, but it's just, like, um, stuff.

Hate to put it bluntly, but discussing atheism isn't the most important thing to talk about. Like, Dawkins et al are interesting to read, and talk about, sure, but I don't go having wet dreams over them either.