Meeting with the Green Party - your suggestions

michaelm

OK - let's suppose reps from this forum were to arrange a meeting with a member of the Green party to outline suggestions to improve all aspects of cylcing in Ireland; what would your suggestions be? If there is a good response to this thread I will compile them into a single posting to let people see how they look. We could then perhaps consider taking them further. As mentioned in a previous post, there are some absolutely wonderful suggestions posted here on a regular basis, I really feel we should be doing something with them.

tunney

1) Remove VAT on helmets, similar to the UK
2) Have cycle paths planned by a cyclist
3) Change the law so parking/driving in a cycle lane in a penalty point offence

peterk19

maybe something like the Ride2Work plans like they have in the UK

Caroline_ie

1/ Keep cycling tracks clean ( ie: glass, pedestrians too... )
2/ Cycle to work incentive schemes ( like in the UK )
3/ Being able to take your bike on all trains
4/ Clean up all potholes!

For a start ...

Thanks for taking the time to gather our thoughts!

Harpz

I'd second both of those suggestions especially the one about having cycle lanes planned by a cyclist.

Studoc

Ensure that when roads/cycle lanes are dug up by utility companies etc, that the surface is replaced in a timely manner to the state that it was in previously.

petethedrummer

The meeting should be on bikes while cycling around Dublin, religiously sticking to the cycle lanes.

Raam

My main gripe is the poor quality road surface on Dublin roads. So many of them are littered with potholes.

kenmc

They should look at introducing a 'bike to work' scheme like they have in the UK : e.g. http://wiggle.co.uk/CustomerServices/cycle2work.aspx.
Tax rebates for employers to install showers, cyclesheds, changing facilities etc.

A unified, enforced, safe, logical approach to cycletracks, with prosecutions for people walking (including running), rollerblading, parking, putting wheelie bins, driving or stopping in them. No rollercoasters like along the N11, no sudden endings or swerving up onto a 10cm kerb - and no cycletracks which end up on the motorway! Possibly introduce contra-flow cycle lanes on one-way roads, cos some cyclists are going to cycle up those roads anyway, so it might as well be legal.

No mandatory rule for cyclists to use cycle tracks unless they are in excellent condition and are well thought out as above. Cycle lanes should not cede right of way at junctions, they should actually have right of way at all points to make it safer. Re-education of drivers about the rights of cyclists via a leaflet drop and advertising (cheap) or enforced retaking of the theory test at tax renewal time (expensive).

In order to create a mass swing away from cars to bikes, especially over short distances, the cyclist has to be obviously faster than the car. Cyclists should not be inconvenienced at the expense of cars, rather vice versa. If drivers realize that cyclists get preference at junctions and lights etc which speeds their journey they might just switch themselves.

In fact I would go as far as to say they should adopt the approach they have in Netherlands wrt cyclists rights of way etc. Cycled over there for 18 months had not one instance of getting cut off or honked at. (Anectodal I know, but I've heard that if a cyclist and a car have a collision there, the car is always at least 50% at fault, even if the cyclist fell from an apartment balcony!)

Cycle-specific traffic lights which give cyclists 10-20 seconds head start over the main traffic flow, as they do in the Netherlands.

Proper facilities for locking up bikes (lockers perhaps) around town, including CCTV surveillance of ALL bike parking facilities. Centralized database of bike serial numbers.

Allowance to take bikes on the dart and the luas for free. Designated areas if necessary - possibly limited to off peak if necessary.

Enforcement of cyclists requirement to wear lights at night - the ninjas give responsible cyclists a bad name. Likewise a proper enforcement of cyclists reports of bad driving, aggression, intimidation etc.

Adoption of the 'free public bikes' scheme like they have in paris at the moment, where you can borrow a bike for up to 30 mins for free, on payment of an annual fee of 20 euro or something.

How's that for starters?

Ghost Rider

A few very important things that relate to cycling in built-up areas:

(i) Change the legislation around cycle lanes so that cyclists are not obliged to use them unless they are of the fully-restricted kind (i.e. the kind out of which motorists have to stay at designated times).

(ii) Vastly increase the number of these. (Currently, the "optional" kind of cycle lane is far more common. These do not serve to protect cyclists. On the contrary: because they are mandatory for cyclists, they designate the rest of the road the exclusive terrain of motorists.)

(iii) Extend the time period in which restricted lanes are restricted; they should be "cyclist only" 24/7, where possible

(iv) Enfore the law regarding improper use of cycle lanes by motorists. I have never known a motorist to be penalised for driving in a restricted cycle lane, and I suspect it is rarely, if ever, done.

niceonetom

good thread.

all of the above. and these, which i rarely hear mentioned:

1) proper provision of bike parking facilities with cctv security to be provided in busy areas (town centres, shopping districts etc.).

2) adequate garda/subcontracted security resources devoted to tackling bike theft - it cannot continue to be treated as a fact of life to gotten used to - it deters cyclists from cycling.


what's the point of cycle lanes if you're afraid to leave your bike anywhere once you arrive? imagine what would happen to the number (and quality) of cars on the road if rates of theft and vandalism against cars were comparable to that against bikes - i think that is what is happening right now with bikes.

Danbo!

I would suggest putting a panel together to consider submitting a proposal for an IS (Irish standards) design document of cycle paths. Most designers will refer to a BS (British standard) where no relevant IS exists. From some quick research I cant see a BS or IS document which governs the design of a cycle track. (I may be corrected on this though).

If such a document could be drafted together, it would mean any new cycle track would have to comply with it, and any that didn't comply would be illegal and have to be rebuilt by law.

Some ideas I had were - there will be a lot more i assume.

• Smaller Storm Drain grids placed in cycle tracks
• Rules referring to re-covering holes after being dug up
• As most new tracks, a different colour surface to the road surface
• Where possible, tracks should be at road level and share junctions with motorists*
• Where buit by a private company (usually along with an apartment complex/shopping centre etc,) the final owner is responsible for repairs/cleaning of glass etc.
• A thickened/stonger base at at bus-stops (where tracks seem to crack/sink)

Plus add in all the other ideas above referring to cycle tracks

* there may be different opinions on this, but I find yielding at every housing estate is very annoying

Ok so this may be a big undertaking, but even a draft government guideline to designing cycle tracks, rather than a full standards doc, sent to every council design dept could help. It could also be passed on to developers who plan to build cycle tracks privately in their planning permission conditions. I.e. "all cycle tracks must conform to gov guideline doc XX"

Just my 2 cents..

Raam

As an FYI, the stretch from Clontarf to Sutton which does not have an off-road cycle track now has a bright new white dashed line on the side of the road. The area is bigger than a typical Dublin cycle track, so there is plenty of room for maneuver.

Bicyclegadabout

If it were at all possible to put cycle track that run along the Luas lines that’d be great. It should have been done in the first place *shakes fist. Ditto for future spurs of the Luas, Metro and so on.

Hardly much point raising this, but commuter towns are a dumb idea. I don’t know why they’re encouraged. Obviously they lead to more traffic.

Gavin

tunney wrote: »

1) Remove VAT on helmets, similar to the UK

Disagree. Lowering VAT on helmets implies that cycling is dangerous. If someone wants to buy a helmet, they are cheap to purchase as is.

Lower the VAT on bicycles though, this is in contrast to the increase in motor tax.

Main issues as I see it are

• Driver education - Rights of cyclists and how to drive with cyclists on the road. Leaflet campaign. Specific questions regarding cyclists in the road theory test (This may be there already, haven't taken it.)
• Cyclist education - Cyclecraft. This should be taught in school. Involve Gardai cyclists in several days of cycling training in schools around the country. This promotes safe cycling among children which remains as they grow up to become drivers and continue cycling.
• Business incentives - Tax breaks for employers with secure cycle facilities, showers, etc. Similar to the tax free bus/rail tickets. They are actively reducing congestion in the city
• Road planner education - A policy document describing best practices for implementing cycle lanes which is adhered to by all county councils. This policy document is created in conjunction with road planners and cyclists representatives.
• No more PR crap - This is ridiculously optimistic compared to the others. No mandatory cycle helmet law. No band aid solutions of putting red paint on road surfaces with no space.

p.s. Distill the advice, chuck it onto the Wiki, write it up correctly (no problem for a Ph.D chap like yourself michaelm) and investigate contact with relevant government authorities. May also wish to talk to some of the cycling campaign groups around.

Chips Lovell

I’d tell them that the cycle lanes in Dublin are next to useless. Essentially we’ve got two types of lanes. One is the “brown stretch of tarmac painted on the road” which seems to do little to deter motorists from encroaching on it. There are nominal differences in these types of lane. A solid white line bordering one means you can’t drive on it, a dashed white lane means you can if you need to. In practice it makes no difference, whether it is cars moving onto them or parking on them. In addition to this, the road surface is often so bad near the edge of the road that you frequently have to leave the lane to avoid potholes etc.

The second type of lane is the one painted up on a footpath. These are even worse and you usually find pedestrians, people walking their dogs, buggies, roller bladers etc also on them. To be honest, I don’t blame people for walking in them as in many cases the space shared between footpath and bike lane is minimal. You often have to hop up on curbs to get on to them. They snake around road signs, lamp posts and bus stops, and often run up and down over people’s driveways. In addition to this, there is the usually detritus pedestrians leave on footpaths such as broken glass etc. Ridiculously, you are legally bound to use such lanes if they are there. If you’re on a bike going at speeds of around 40kph you belong on the road and it’s dangerous to be sharing space with pedestrians. The result is you have to break the law to ensure your own safety and the safety of pedestrians. If the powers that be were only going to do one thing for cyclists I’d ask them to abandon the obligation to cycle on such lanes.

In my experience, cycle lanes do more harm than good to the interests of cyclists, since they only reinforce the erroneous belief many motorists have that cyclists don’t belong on the road. It galls me that I can go out for five or six hours on the bike on a Saturday, get on just fine sharing the road with cars and other vehicles and then come back into town and find myself being beeped at by some ignorant muppet in a BMW because I’m not cycling on the footpath.

In short, I’d ask them to spend more time improving the road surfaces and less trying to divert cyclists off the road. If it were up to me I’d ditch the cycle lanes entirely.

Raam

el tonto wrote: »

In short, I’d ask them to spend more time improving the road surfaces and less trying to divert cyclists off the road. If it were up to me I’d ditch the cycle lanes entirely.

Agree 100%

Money Shot

Some great points above, so I won't repeat.

A lot of employers these days offer free or subsidised travel expenses for public transport, yet if you cycle to work you miss out and get nothing.

Government should ensure employers consider cyclists in all such schemes, even if it means tax breaks. If someone gets the bus/train, the employer essentially gives them 500-750 a year travel expenses. A cyclist should be given a similar allowance - it might get more people cycling.

In my opinion, the main reasons people will not cycle to work are
A) Fear - they are petrified of driving in dublin traffic, and rightly so as drivers basically ignore cyclists, and the lane conditions are awful. Education is key here, and priority on the roads for cyclists.
Weather - not much we can do about rain, but I think if people knew that there are options available to counter this such as quality rain gear, quick drying gear, showers in work, water proof bag etc

I have gotten five people cycling in to work in the office here over the last few years. My most convincing arguments were to do with Money and time. Public transport will cost a minimum of 20 euro a week, that's 1,040 a year, meaning you can have the cost of your bike covered in three of four months - the rest is profit. Also, they were paying 500 quid a year to a gym so that they could walk on a threadmill or sit on a stationary bike and watch coronation street for a half an hour.
Cycling to work is usually quicker and very predictable time wise. Also, for the people who three times a week sit in traffic to and from gyms after work basically give themselves two/three evenings a week back.
The government needs to make these arguments and educate people to the practial, monetary and health benefits of cycling.

Mucco

Mostly good suggestions, though it's probably best to focus on 2 or 3 high priority ideas.

As a benchmark, I used to work for a large American multinational in the UK. We had:
Bike to work scheme (tax free bikes paid for from gross salary)
Secure, sheltered bike storage (inside security fence)
Excellent changing rooms
Lockers
Drying room
£2/day bonus for not using car park

These facilites were installed to reduce traffic congestion in the area rather than out of any concern for cyclists in particular.

petethedrummer

Mucco wrote: »

£2/day bonus for not using car park

Good idea.

TinyExplosions

Everything has pretty much been said, but I really want to +1 on the drying room -companies have showers and bike lock ups but rarely have a drying room, so on a wet morning, you can have a bag full of damp gear moulding away (and stinking!) under your desk!

unionman

It strikes me that for any political party, greens included, the long term aim is to encourage motorists to consider alternatives so as to reduce congestion, oil dependency, and the national carbon footprint. Most emphasis is naturally placed on public transport, and we all know just how far behind they are in developing that infrastructure.

The downside of this is that cyclists are seen collectively as an audience who have already taken the decision to use an alternative, and the political animal will naturally conclude that there is little point in entertaining the views of the converts, because they will cycle anyway.

So, with this in mind, and trying to think about what the politicians can respond to, I think that cyclists need to demonstrate leadership by advocating for improvements that will persuade motorists to cycle, rather than seeking to improve the lot of cyclists only. The required changes are the same (bike to work tax incentives / improved surfacing etc), but the manner in which the argument is made focuses on demonstrating benefits cyclists already enjoy.

A campaign predicated on what cyclists see as problematic would have no political capital outside of cyclists themselves; and if the cycling population grows, critical mass will provide a long term strategic advantage.

Having said all that (and apologies if it is a bit long winded), I agree with everything already suggested. I think there is a strong case to be made for the abolition of VAT on bicycles, as the exchequer would stand to forego very little income.

Finally, a word of caution, some reforms open the door to the idea of registration / licencing of bicycles and cyclists. This has the potential to act as a huge disincentive to would be cyclists and the state, due to additional costs in administration etc.

Hermy

Why ask the Greens? They appear to have done a complete u-turn on just about everything they once stood for since getting into government with Fianna Fail. Why not ask Sinn Fein or the Independants or the Popular Peoples Front of Judea, or why not ask Fianna Fail, as they are the party with the power these past few decades!
End of rant.

studiorat

Allow bicycles on the Dart etc...

RDM_83

Just my two cents but having been cycling for the last few months from the city centre to UCD I have to say I've seen many cyclists do illegal and dangerous things to shave of a few seconds, so I believe that if your going to have motorist education about cyclists rights etc perhaps cyclists should be judged by the same standards (how often do you see a motorbike courier go through a load of pedestrians crossing at a green man-how often for bike couriers?).
all of the ideas above sound very sensible I know I was put off by safety issues from cycling in Dublin for a long time.
ps whats with the stretch of cycle lane along Aungier Street heading into town (at least I think its a cycle lane never seen it not literally full of parked cars!)

Chips Lovell

RDM_83 wrote: »

how often do you see a motorbike courier go through a load of pedestrians crossing at a green man-how often for bike couriers?

It's clowns like this that give the rest of us a bad name. They'd be the first to be banging on a car bonnet if a motorist broke a light too.

Bicyclegadabout

RDM_83 wrote: »

ps whats with the stretch of cycle lane along Aungier Street heading into town (at least I think its a cycle lane never seen it not literally full of parked cars!)

I’ll check it tomorrow but I think it’s a cycle track from 7am-10am and from 4pm to 7pm. Something like that.

And on that note, those types of cycle track are dangerous for people cycle at night time. Get rid of em!

RedPlanet

- eliminate the "mandatory use" rule
- Planners should have to consult with cycling body (and the NRA) to approve cycletrack design. Today the Planner is just another motorist-centric eejit that hasn't been on a bike for 30 years but they once read a paragraph on "segregated cycle facilities"..
- Regardless of the above, the biggest problem cyclists face is probably the volume of motorists. So public transport, Quality Bus Corridors and enforcement of traffic regulations have got to be priorities.

cyclopath2001

Raam wrote: »

As an FYI, the stretch from Clontarf to Sutton which does not have an off-road cycle track now has a bright new white dashed line on the side of the road. The area is bigger than a typical Dublin cycle track, so there is plenty of room for maneuver.

This has been announced locally as an 'advisory' cycle lane. This is an artifice of Dublin City Council to avoid the responsibilities associated with making it a legally-defined one. It also means that cars can be parked in it and drive in it at any time.

An investigation of Dublin City Council's activities would be a good way to make a fresh start.

kincsem

If they could make it safe for all children to cycle to school that would be enough. That would take real changes, not PR changes.

Vélo

The bike to work scheme is a must