Satellite provider NBB throws spanner in NBS works.

clohamon

The Irish Times has a report that National Broadband Limited trading as NBB has applied to the commercial court claiming bias and that the Minister is not entitled to refuse submissions from satellite providers.

Story is on subscription here.
www.ireland.com/newspaper/finance/2008/0422/1208469020788.html

According to the IT, NBB base their claim on an email received from the department's mapping "team" (presumably declining their submission). The hearing is set for 10th June.

NBB's website claims this:

Our two way satellite broadband is an always on service which does not require a telephone.
Download speed is up to 1024K. Upload speed is up to 128K.
Unlike other service providers we do not operate a "cap" on the amount that you can download each month. We do however operate a FAIR USAGE POLICY to ensure that, particularly at peak usage times, available bandwidth is evenly distributed among all users.
Pasted from http://www.nbb.ie/home_Office.html



You might wonder what is the correct way to represent satellite coverage on the map, but for the moment its desperate bad luck for the minister; if there's no quick resolution he may well have to postpone the scheme again.

damien

And given that all those in for the tender WILL use satellite in some areas...

watty

I'd love to see a 3rd party audited coverage map for Astra2Connect (NBB's offering) in typical rain.

BarryM

damien.m wrote: »

And given that all those in for the tender WILL use satellite in some areas...

I mentioned over on another thread that the CfT for an evaluation of the schools bb programme had a review of the 'progress' in which it was stated that a significant number of planned DSL connections to schools had to be replaced by satellite, so one has to wonder why the Dept weren't aware of this and included satellite in the options for this CfT..... serves them right if they got shafted by NBB, even if the technical arguments are weak.

Apropos, the satellite stuff for schools is actually a big mess too. Because of the way it was divvied up between the different suppliers there are situations where two relatively adjacent schools are supplied bb by satellite, by different suppliers; they could quite easily have had a regional up/down satt link and a redistribution by wireless.... given the built in latency it wouldn't have made much difference.

Another article in todays IT reporting that Ireland is bottom of the heap for schools IT says that Hannafin won't be able to spend the €252m in the national development plan for schools IT because of budget constraints. If the Dept of Ed had used the schools bb money more efficiently they'd have something to spend...... I understand that the ongoing/maintenance costs for remote rural schools using satellite is averaging €1000 a month....

smellslikeshoes

It doesn't really make sense if satellite already has 100% coverage though does it? If people wanted satellite they would get it. There should have been a latency limit placed on the technologies used to provide it to the majority of people when it was drawn up. Its a mess whatever way you look at it.

watty

A satellite with a GOOD footprint intended for Ireland (Schools is one) is maybe 99.5% coverage. A Satellite primarily for European Mainland will give 45% to 70% geographical coverage in Ireland. On almost all except two satellites (one has no space as Sky/BBC/ITV use it, the other has nearly no space because C6, BBC, RTE, C5 use it for OB and headend/Transmitter feeds) the West / Cork/Kerry is non-existent and West to North West is poor.

I thought there was a limit on latency and the Satellite option is simply for those that can't be fed ANY other way. Parts of Kerry / West Cork a mast on an offshore platform (too costly) gives x10 coverage than any hill top. Look at the Cruel & Unusual Geography.


Also on the NBB scheme map maybe 10% to 35% of those covered can't get Broadband due to Wireless LOS failures, DSL line length or quality etc.

Sponge Bob

Satellite is simply ****e and thats that , mind you so is the notoriously bad 3 HSDPA network .

3's interest in the NBS should be terminated forthwith and then these eejits in NBB have no case .

watty

Decent Sat terminals have better more consistent speed than HSDPA. Even consistent DSL speeds are possible. However Astra2connect is an "entry level" product on a Satellite more suited to Germany. I doubt it's better than HSDPA in Cork/Kerry.

At minimum of about 850ms latency with TCP/DNS/ARP etc acceleration, Satellite can make HSDPA or Ripwave look stupid as I've seen both run at over 900ms (1000ms+ and 1780ms) and they have no accelerator, so even at 200ms can be worse as packet acknowleged and ARP and DNS requests as pages loading. FTP latency on HSDPA or Ripwave is huge on EACH packet. Satellite cheats and spoofs the acknowledgement on each end.

However I'd rather have Fixed WiMax /FWALA Fixes, Metro, Cable or DSL. Satellite web page browsing on a good terminal is:
"Click" <Did I click it?>
< nearly one second>
"Bang!" <oh that page loaded VERY fast>

On my WiFi gadget on a 30ms Internet I get the opposite experience:
"Click" <page starts loading...>
<part of page at once ... seems to stall for a about 10s...>
"Hmm"<.....>
Nearly 45 sec later... page renders.

clohamon

Exchanges in the Dail today reveal a bit more. It appears that anyone who can get a mobile 3G signal by the end of June may be excluded from the NBS. Mobile 3G is an acceptable solution under the scheme and he expects that wireless will be extensive. Satellite is the last resort. Comreg and the provider will decide what is a reasonable request. Reading between the lines its not looking good for Eircom.

The full debates are here
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080423.xml&Node=H10-1#H10-1
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080423.xml&Node=H10-5#H10-5
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=DAL20080423.xml&Node=H11-3#H11-3

Key replies from Eamon Ryan.

Deputy Eamon Ryan:
**The principle here is to get to those communities and the definition used is the areas that do not have coverage at present under mobile, fixed line or other wireless services. Satellite covers most of the country so that exists as a covering system but was not what we were examining in the mapping process. It was to do with the communities that do not have other technologies. There may be exceptions such as houses that are always difficult to get to. We must allow flexibility in that regard but the principle of the scheme is to get to communities with a new technological platform. To a certain extent, whatever company wins, the benefit from this process will be that it will increase competition and encourage other companies not involved in this scheme in rural Ireland. It is no harm to have competing platforms to get better coverage.

Deputy Eamon Ryan:
**The timetable is that there is a hearing for a judicial review on 10 June. My expectation and hope is that it will not unduly delay the development of the completion of contracts and the roll-out of the programme. That is something that will be subject to judicial decision but my firmly held expectation is that we will continue this project on time and deliver as soon as possible because we do need it urgently as a piece of public infrastructure.
As regards how an area qualifies, the only way is to see what services are available at present. The nature of the scheme is designed to concentrate on areas that do not have coverage, which is exactly what it is doing. This is a changing area and broadband penetration has effectively doubled in the past year. Nine months ago we did not have a single customer on mobile broadband, while now there are 129,000 such customers. Therefore the facility is rolling out and changing in an evolving process about which we cannot be exact until we actually set the deadline. Even in the two or three months between now and that time we may see technology being rolled out. It is right for us to concentrate on areas that do not have coverage.

Deputy Simon Coveney:
**Is it the industry or the consumer that makes the case?

Deputy Eamon Ryan:
**It is the technical and scientific assessment. There will always be houses that cannot be covered for a variety of reasons. Even in our current system under the universal service obligation, which we discussed earlier, there are houses that the fixed-line provider cannot get to. In such circumstances alternatives will always be put in place. In terms of broadband, the most likely development is the use of satellite to connect such locations if they cannot be connected by any other means. We are not leaving any houses behind. The aim of the scheme is to ensure that areas currently without broadband get it by whatever technology is selected by the winners of the competitive tender - whether it is Y-Mex (sic), wireless, 3G or fixed-line. That is something the winning company in the tendering process will have to decide. The design of the scheme is to get to those areas that are not covered. One must use a map to decide what those areas are. The only way of deciding it is on the basis of scientific analysis of what is available.


Deputy Eamon Ryan:
**I said I am reluctant to discuss the details of the judicial review but there will always be exceptions, no matter what technology we deliver and what country one is in. By dint of geography there will be houses that cannot be covered as there are in the delivery of the universal service obligation with regard to fixed lines. In those circumstances, it is right for us to allow for an alternative technology. The companies have an interest in attracting customers - it is a way of building a customer base. Whatever technology is used, it is likely to involve masts and an extensive network of radio connectivity in some areas. One does not want to leave those customers behind. The specific decision on any individual house is a technical decision. Currently, ComReg, in conjunction with the companies, determines how the technical term of all reasonable requests is defined. That will continue as it works at present with Eircom or a fixed line provider.

Sponge Bob

Does the useless **** understand Cell Breathing , never mid Y-Mex ( thats wimax in a poncy s dublin accent as interpreted by a Dáil reporter )

I would nevertheless allow 1km of coverage off a 3g mast once population factors and number of sectors are correctly accounted for .

He still needs some proper contingency tech on each 3g tower for ranges over 1km and also needs to understand clearly that wimax has been sorta hijacked by 3g despite it being different.

Its also fair to say that there were plenty of customers on HSDPA 3g 9 months ago, its been around for over 19 months.

smellslikeshoes

I doubt I was the only one with a sinking feeling in my chest as I read through that article. I think someone should give the Minister a 3G modem for a few weeks to see how it works out for him. 3G is not comparable to fixed broadband and having it included in the covered areas displays how out of touch with reality he really is.

Sponge Bob

He has already spent the money on Wood Pellet Burners , no cash this year ...although some rollout _may_ start this year the way things are going.

cgarvey

Does one laugh or cry at the fact that 129K mobile "broadband" users is being portrayed as a success of some form?

Eamon, there are 129K users not because they love the whole nomadic thing, or because it's all on one bill. It's because there's NO ALTERNATIVE (cue some statellite reseller to spam here)! That's not a good thing!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm delighted that HSDPA/3G/EDGE has been enabled in some very remote areas, becaise it does fill a gap and is usually better than dialup. Broadband it is not, however. k? Thanks Eamon.

watty

But does he realise that with 10 to 15 users on a sector at once that the 3G/HSDPA slows to dialup speed (or worse*)?

The Upto 3.6Mbps is SECTOR speed. Decent fixed wireless solutions for BB have nearly 10 times that sector speed.

Also with real fixed wireless solutions, 15 users at once never get worse than 1/15th speed. On 3G/HSDPA it degrades exponentionally, not linear as it uses CDMA. i.e. with 15 users you can be down to 1/40th speed or even less.

Oddly I asked someone yesterday had Ryan bought shares in "3".

(* There are Mobile systems that maintain sessions, but with 3G/HSDPA if the connection is dropped, even for an instant, all the sessions are lost. In reality it works like dialup, not broadband even if you are the only person in a sector and getting broadband speed.)

watty

We should have seen the "writing on the wall" when it emerged that "3" was one of the shortlisted canditates.

I wonder if people change from eircom line dialup to "mobile dialup" under the NBS, who will they vote for in the next elections?

bealtine

watty wrote: »

But does he realise

The Upto 3.6Mbps is SECTOR speed. Decent fixed wireless solutions for BB have nearly 10 times that sector speed.

He's a green, realization of technical concepts is not an option in green ideology.

Which is the main reason that Ryan is utterly useless in this field, he simply does not
comprehend the technologies involved. It seems to me that Ryan has been suckered
by the slick advertising and glossy brochures.
He needs real technical advisers.

(Anything more complicated than your average bicycle is incomprehensible)